Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

[dennis lumbert]

I had rear axle housings machined and installed replacement races in 08.Car has 1600 miles on it and inspected brakes to discover grease colored like silver.After inspection found wear on housing races only.Checked them for hardness with a file and their soft.I removed the sleeves and the housings are both machined to 1.752”.The sleeves appear to have had an inner diameter of 1.750”.purchased replacements from Bert’s and they are 1.695” inner diameter.
I moved to Ar in 15 so I have to find someone here to have them both remachined .A local machinest wants a min of $170.00 each to do the job.I was hoping to find sleeves the same size as the ones I removed but that may be impossible.Not saying the price is to high ,just was hoping to not have to Machine the housings again.Has anyone run across sleeves with a 1.750 inner diameter?

[Joe K]

You seem to have already removed the sleeve. Congratulations on a job difficult at best. (One might question the quality of the machinist if one can simply "remove" a sleeve - although you do indicate 0.002 interference - which might be correct for a "solid" interference fit - i.e. a stub in a hole without stretch.)

It would be more normal to "machine" the existing sleeves off. Early Model A's had the bearing seat "sleeved" by Ford. Henry dropped the sleeves in cost savings for later cars. So one might encounter either version.

A good machinist is aware of the possibility of stretch of the sleeve - and adds a bit more to account for it.

In my case the sleeve came with instructions for the final outside diameter - which was actually a "target" with (IIRC) about 0.005 finished diameter. Also suggested OD of the machining to achieve the final OD given press size/use of Loctite/lubricant.

I think you're going to have to pony up to the bar on this one. Your machinist is a trifle expensive. Its a 2 hour job on a lathe with carbide tools, but not a terribly demanding one. So he's making about $85 an hour - which is not that far out of whack in today's professional world.

Of course Berts may have entire trumpet housings already prepared for less than the cost of sleeve and installation. And the best part is they come with "satisfaction guaranteed," which is unlikely to be afforded by your machinist given the specifics of the job. ("Gee, I don't do this for a living.") A new housing(s) would require one to "totally set-up" the rear end (gear bluing, gasket thicknesses, etc.) But that is YOUR work - if you have the capability.

Maybe a Trade School shop class? Do they still have these things?

In my case a 1908 Flather lathe and high speed tool would not touch the sleeve. I farmed this out to a machinist with carbide tooling - he charged me $24 for one, including pressing - in 1978.

Joe K

[dennis lumbert]

Thanks for the reply Joe.Im use to getting pressed on races off having worked on Honda cars professionally for 30 + years.I just found a machine shop 4 miles from my house who came highly recommended.He is going to do them both for $125.00 .Problem solved. Dennis

[Synchro909]

I think you're doing the right thing using Bert's sleeves. They are thicker and hardened to a reasonable degree. They will last. I haven't seen a decent sleeve from any of the other vendors. I'd also check the hubs and rollers. They have been running in that contaminated grease for long enough that they might be damaged too.
I've just done a rear end and I used good hard sleeves, original rollers in good nick (about .001 to .0015" wear) and new hubs. I'm expecting good service.

[Steve Plucker]

I know of someone who had the same problem with a reputable repro parts house.

They just Pooh-pooh'ed it.

He reported it to one of the major Model A magizines...same thing.

Guess they did not want to loose their advertising business!!!

Pluck

[dennis lumbert]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I think you're doing the right thing using Bert's sleeves. They are thicker and hardened to a reasonable degree. They will last. I haven't seen a decent sleeve from any of the other vendors. I'd also check the hubs and rollers. They have been running in that contaminated grease for long enough that they might be damaged too.
I've just done a rear end and I used good hard sleeves, original rollers in good nick (about .001 to .0015" wear) and new hubs. I'm expecting good service.

The hub races look good,they do have the hub saver races .I would rather have new hubs but that won’t fit my budget.I bought new bearings from Bert’s and Steve reports good service from them.By the way Steve is a fantastic guy to deal with. Best regards, Dennis

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by dennis lumbert

The hub races look good,they do have the hub saver races .I would rather have new hubs but that won’t fit my budget.I bought new bearings from Bert’s and Steve reports good service from them.By the way Steve is a fantastic guy to deal with. Best regards, Dennis

Met Steve when we were in Denver last year! With new sleeves on the axle housing and sleeves in the hub, the roiginal rollers are way too big. Most people use the smaller diameter V8 rollers. I think the hub sleeves are made for that.

[dennis lumbert]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Met Steve when we were in Denver last year! With new sleeves on the axle housing and sleeves in the hub, the roiginal rollers are way too big. Most people use the smaller diameter V8 rollers. I think the hub sleeves are made for that.

Yes,I purchased the V8 bearings.When I originally rebuilt the rear axle assembly in 2008 new hubs were not available.I put new cast iron drums on the old hubs and used the hub saver races and v8 bearings.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Met Steve when we were in Denver last year! With new sleeves on the axle housing and sleeves in the hub, the roiginal rollers are way too big. Most people use the smaller diameter V8 rollers. I think the hub sleeves are made for that.

IIRC the V8 bearings were about half the cost of the originals. But add to that the price of sleeves. When I was at this point the cost difference was there - but not enough to get me away from original.



Joe K

[dennis lumbert]

Originally Posted by Joe K

IIRC the V8 bearings were about half the cost of the originals. But add to that the price of sleeves. When I was at this point the cost difference was there - but not enough to get me away from original.



Joe K

Back in 08 I was new to Model A’s and didn’t know any better.

[dennis lumbert]

Originally Posted by Joe K

IIRC the V8 bearings were about half the cost of the originals. But add to that the price of sleeves. When I was at this point the cost difference was there - but not enough to get me away from original.



Joe K

Back in 08 I was new to Model A’s and didn’t know any better.

[Joe K]

Take solace. I'm not sure better IS any better. Ford changed for a reason.

Joe K

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Joe K

Take solace. I'm not sure better IS any better. Ford changed for a reason.

Joe K

True, and each year Ford made improvements, -and if we follow the mindset of always wanting to make it better or make improvements, ...soon we are driving something that most call a street rod. Correct??

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

True, and each year Ford made improvements, -and if we follow the mindset of always wanting to make it better or make improvements, ...soon we are driving something that most call a street rod. Correct??

Correct. And certain of us chose to keep it original.

I think the object for all is to "keep 'em rolling." And the hobby (and the forums) are large enough to at least tell how it can be done. And put out the plus & minus of each.

I will probably never drive a "full pressurized" Model A engine myself - much less a 5 bearing engine, but I enjoy hearing from those that do.

Thanks for bringing "perspective." Part of the forum too.


Joe K

[updraught]

Have there been problems with the new V8 bearings?

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by updraught

Have there been problems with the new V8 bearings?

Not that I'm aware. They may even be stronger/longer lived because of the smaller seal area/better control of entrance contamination.

They certainly were used on a "higher horsepower" application. (i.e. compare V8 capability to 4 cylinder capability) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_flathead_V8_engine (95 horsepower in 1939)

Joe K

[Tom Endy]

Over the years of rebuilding rear axle assemblies I have encountered unserviceable hubs on the ends of the axle housings. There was a local shop that could turn down the hubs and press on hardened sleeves. He supplied the sleeves. At first his price was reasonable, but he kept increasing it until he priced himself out of the market and finally went out of business.


One piece of advice he gave me, which I believe is important, is to not use the reproduction rear wheel bearings the suppliers sell. The roller elements are much too hard and will tear the sleeves up. Find some originals.


Soon after Bratton's started offering hardened sleeves. They sell for about $25 each and I have been using them for years. I found a shop that will turn down the hub and press the sleeve on for $80 each and have been going this route for a number of years. I also advise my customers to find some original rear wheel bearings. There are ample still around and they were over-engineered and perform well.


I have not had any customers comeback with a sad tale of a hub failure, But of course many of these cars are not driven often.


The original wheel bearings have a spiral in each element and appear to be of a softer material. I see them at swap meets and are sometimes found in old discarder drums. They can usually be had for little or nothing.


Tom Endy

[Joe K]

One piece of advice he gave me, which I believe is important, is to not use the reproduction rear wheel bearings the suppliers sell. The roller elements are much too hard and will tear the sleeves up. Find some originals.

Go Timken and you won't go wrong. That was the original bearing IIRC.

We have a family member who did his "student interneship" with Timken. Having heard him expound at length about the quality checks (his particular specialty) I can positively say that Timken is one of the few American companies who have maintained or even improved their US and dare I say world position in the field.

My own field, Nuclear Power Plant engineering and startup, appreciated that because ANY product of Timken could be provided with "Nuclear Quality Assurance" for pretty much the cost of the paperwork - and involved nothing other than assembling the paper and sending them to you. We reasoned that the bearings are ALL made already to the ultimate quality, and all are identical origin, production, and documentation wise.

As I say - Go Timken - an American Success Story.

Not saying you won't pay for it - that also is what Americans do - get their piece of your hide.

Joe K


Edit: somewhere here I have assembled in a box the COMPLETE set of Timken Cone Bearings to do a rear end. Almost $400 in bearings done in Timken which the large cones & race units run about $55 a copy. I was tempted at first to do the "aftermarket" bearing which run $25-35 depending on source. But wisely saved up for the full set.

[Werner]

Hello,

the circulating lubricating grooves are not good!

At that time in the past designers thought these grooves were necessary for the constant fat distribution.

Today it is known that these grooves interfere with the hydrodynamic pressure resistance of the lubricating film.

Therefore, all bearings have a smooth surface with a little rough-depth. (Never polished!)

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Werner

Hello,

the circulating lubricating grooves are not good!

At that time in the past designers thought these grooves were necessary for the constant fat distribution.

Today it is known that these grooves interfere with the hydrodynamic pressure resistance of the lubricating film.

Therefore, all bearings have a smooth surface with a little rough-depth. (Never polished!)

I believe the grooves are not there for anything to do with lubrication. It is more to do with the way they were made. A strip of the appropriate alloy steel was twisted into a cylinder, ground and hardened. The grooves are a result of the winding/twisting process.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

I believe the grooves are not there for anything to do with lubrication. It is more to do with the way they were made. A strip of the appropriate alloy steel was twisted into a cylinder, ground and hardened. The grooves are a result of the winding/twisting process.

My memory agrees with this - it gives the bearing some "give." Like the bearing rolls on "springs?"

The fit is a bit "loose" IIRC. Like 0.015? The axle shaft actually hold the drum perpendicular to the backing plate as otherwise a fair amount of tilt of the drum would be possible.

Joe K

[Werner]

Correction! I confused something:

The small rough depth is necessary for plain gliding bearings.

Rolling bearings must not have a rough depth and must always be polished!
Sorry for my shorttime important mistake!

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Joe K

My memory agrees with this - it gives the bearing some "give." Like the bearing rolls on "springs?"

The fit is a bit "loose" IIRC. Like 0.015? The axle shaft actually hold the drum perpendicular to the backing plate as otherwise a fair amount of tilt of the drum would be possible.

Joe K

While that amy be true, the hubs always wear bell shaped. Must be flex in the system, most likely when cornering or a side load for some other reason.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

While that amy be true, the hubs always wear bell shaped. Must be flex in the system, most likely when cornering or a side load for some other reason.

Wear or stretch? Not that it matters, the correction is the same.

Akin possibly to the principle of "pein straightening?"

Interesting concept.

We learned about that at the Nuclear plant. Repeated isolated peining beyond the elastic limit locally deforms the metal creating compression stress which in transferring to the mass of metal causes an overall "reformation."

We pein straightened a shaft about 4 feet long held between balance wheels (you know those wheels you use to find the "heavy side?") The shaft started out visibly bent with a total offset about 0.025 inches over 4 feet.

Using a pneumatic hammer holding a blunt tool (rounded with no sharp edges) one applies the tool to the "low" side of the shaft as it sits, applying it to what is the "concave" side of the bend. This is kind of counter-intuitive to what you might normally expect - a person with a hammer will apply it at the point of greatest displacement hoping to bend "en-masse" and thereby straighten the shaft.

The tool is run back and forth while "rat-tat-tatting" impacting the surface - and this causes the shaft to locally deform. Not even leaving a surface dent. The shaft because of the localized reformation will "straighten." In fact, the instructors direction to us was to continue beyond straight and leave it bent the "other" way. "Walk it an equal distance off center in the 'other' direction - I need to have a demonstration for the NEXT class to correct." he said.

We ended up "walking" the shaft back and forth a couple of times - the process is THAT fast.

Pein straightening even has the advantage of relieving stress - something about the sonic wave transfer within the metal. A stress someone with a hammer can't help but leave and which can cause cracking.

Anyway, one can see how repeated localized roller pressure beyond the elastic limit might cause "belling" of the mouth of the hub.

Joe K

[Bud]

I posted this on another thread not long ago:
"Just to add a side note: the "grooves" in the original rollers, though they may conduct lubricant across the bearing, are not grooves at all. I ran across this in an old New Departure catalog. The rollers are made of wound strip stock. They are deliberately designed that way. They are shock absorbing rollers! When hit with a heavy shock they avoid high contact stress by expanding axially. Replacement bearings are usually solid rollers with much less shock absorbing capability, but cheaper to produce."
I would say the original manufacturer for Ford was Hyatt, not Timken.

[Synchro909]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Joe K

Wear or stretch? Not that it matters, the correction is the same.

Akin possibly to the principle of "pein straightening?"

Interesting concept.

We learned about that at the Nuclear plant. Repeated isolated peining beyond the elastic limit locally deforms the metal creating compression stress which in transferring to the mass of metal causes an overall "reformation."

We pein straightened a shaft about 4 feet long held between balance wheels (you know those wheels you use to find the "heavy side?") The shaft started out visibly bent with a total offset about 0.025 inches over 4 feet.

Using a pneumatic hammer holding a blunt tool (rounded with no sharp edges) one applies the tool to the "low" side of the shaft as it sits, applying it to what is the "concave" side of the bend. This is kind of counter-intuitive to what you might normally expect - a person with a hammer will apply it at the point of greatest displacement hoping to bend "en-masse" and thereby straighten the shaft.

The tool is run back and forth while "rat-tat-tatting" impacting the surface - and this causes the shaft to locally deform. Not even leaving a surface dent. The shaft because of the localized reformation will "straighten." In fact, the instructors direction to us was to continue beyond straight and leave it bent the "other" way. "Walk it an equal distance off center in the 'other' direction - I need to have a demonstration for the NEXT class to correct." he said.

We ended up "walking" the shaft back and forth a couple of times - the process is THAT fast.

Pein straightening even has the advantage of relieving stress - something about the sonic wave transfer within the metal. A stress someone with a hammer can't help but leave and which can cause cracking.

Anyway, one can see how repeated localized roller pressure beyond the elastic limit might cause "belling" of the mouth of the hub.

Joe K

I've seen piston slap removed in an old motor by using lead shot blasted against the skirts to enlarge them. A set of rings, a hone, a valve job, adjust the bearings and away we go!

[Lawrie]

Arnold, I worked in an engine recon shop in the 70,s we had a piston expander,it was a set of fingers with a curved end the was driven by a motor and you sat the piston on two rollers and went to town inside the piston with the fingers going up and down flat out,you could usually get about .002,BUt after a while in use the pistons always cracked,
Customers would come in and ask for a set of rings and blow the pistons up.
Lawrie

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Lawrie

Arnold, I worked in an engine recon shop in the 70,s we had a piston expander,it was a set of fingers with a curved end the was driven by a motor and you sat the piston on two rollers and went to town inside the piston with the fingers going up and down flat out,you could usually get about .002,BUt after a while in use the pistons always cracked,
Customers would come in and ask for a set of rings and blow the pistons up.
Lawrie

Lawrie, I don't know how much my father expanded those pistons but they were small to start with (Austin A30). We drove the wheels off that car for years till my sister tried sitting on 100 k on a country trip and put a leg out of bed!

[Joe K]

The 1930 engine I pulled out of a Vermont farmer's back lot had a sort of mechanical internal spring added to each piston. It sort of "yoked" around the piston pin so they can't come loose. By removing the center lock pin, the expander could be compressed with a pair of vise-grips and withdrawn. They had a fair amount of spring to them - almost like wear your safety glasses and shield lest they squirm out of the vise-grips and hit you in the kisser.

I kept them but more as a conversation piece - I don't think I would use them.

Joe K

[katy]

They used to knurl pistons w/special tools to expand them,

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by katy

They used to knurl pistons w/special tools to expand them,

I just last week checked the internal condition of a spare engine I have from the US. The pistons in it had been treated that way. I put it back together without changing anything.

[SAJ]

LI have a piston expander called a Koetherizer. Invented by Emil Koether in the Early 1930's.
You clean the piston internally by blasting with walnut shells in the right hand chamber of the machine. Then insert the special squeeze bolt through the gudgeon holes, tighten the bolt against its ballrace thrust washer and nut, squeezing it until it has expanded to the size you want across the thrust faces, using a micrometer across them. Up to 0.005 to 0.007 and maybe more can be gained depending on the design and weight of the piston.
Then put the piston, still under compression with the squeeze bolt in place, into the steel shot blasting chamber and blast all around the inside, using the automatic piston rotator mechanism to blast every part at about 100 psi with compressed air and steel shot.
This relieves the compression stresses in the aluminium alloy, so the piston holds the new shape and size after the squeeze is removed.
The original operator who did many thousands of piston still comes to relieve new modern racing pistons for friends who race modern cars, for better longevity at high revs. Mainly as a favour to old friends.
There was a category “piston expansion and automotive” in the NZ classified ads years ago in the newspapers, that dealt with Koetherizing and “micropeining” using tiny swinging hammers inside pistons. Koetherizing was said to be more gentle and kinder to piston.
SAJ in NZ

[barnstuf]

In answer to BUD, #25 responder, I was told by a retiree friend, now deceased, who was an automotive engineer for General Motors, and ran a Hyatt bearing factory, that it was part of the General Motors family, so I doubt if it was an original equipment bearing supplier to Ford.

[katy]

According to Wikipedia: "Henry Ford became a major customer.[2] By 1916 the Ford Motor Company had almost half the market for new automobiles, selling 577,036 vehicles that year"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_...earing_Company

[Joe K]

The Hyatt connection may be fact. The unique spring-based roller bearing may in fact be Hyatt.

Its been a while since my last rear hub/sleeve experience - and I can't say I remember ANY markings on the hub bearing.

That said, the remainder of the bearing for the rear end - including the double race bearing at the pinion seat - were DEFINITELY originally Timken in my rear end experience. Timken specialized in conical roller "cup & cage" bearings - as opposed to Torrington - who specialized in "needle" bearings.

Which brings to the question about the drive shaft forward needle bearing? Another one out of mind.

Joe K