Let's start a junkyard fuel injection discussion

[Kilohertz]

Hi all,

I want to get a discussion going about building a fuel injection system for the flathead using mainly parts you can get at the wreckers. It's easy to spend $1-2K on a new off the shelf system but I want to build something using existing technology, something that is readily available and cheap, and something that will work with our little flatty's.

I have been reading and learning about various injection systems used over the years, both GM and Ford have some good relatively simple systems from the 80's and 90's, I'm sure there are others and certainly imports but I want something we can get readily from our local junk yards.

For the ECM, possibly use something stock, but most likely would need the tunabilty of a Megasquirt or similar controller, something you can adjust and tune on your laptop.

Also would need to figure out what manifold would work, throttle body, adapter plates etc. I would like to incorporate ignition as a possible option, having the timing controlled by the ECM, but that could come later. I think multi-port would be too complex and would require some serious machine work to install all the injectors, fuel rails etc.

I am currently leaning toward a GM system from say a 3.8L or even a 2.8L. Just starting to research what vehicles/engines might be good donors.

So, let's hear what you have to say, have you already built something, thinking about it but not done anything yet like me.....I think between all the smart people on this board, we should be able to come up with a decent system.

Cheers

[cmbrucew]

You could find a Holley PRO-Jection at a swap meet. Needs a 15# fuel pump and a return line to the tank. Also 12 volt. Use a GM throttle body 2V from an S10.
Bruce

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Kilohertz

Hi all,

So, let's hear what you have to say, have you already built something, thinking about it but not done anything yet like me.....I think between all the smart people on this board, we should be able to come up with a decent system.

Cheers

OK, for the sake of discussion, what do you expect to achieve by installing such a system?

[tubman]

Didn't there used to e a guy that poseted on here that turned some terrific quarter mile ET's (I think I remember 12's) in a 32' 3-window with a fuel-injected 265 ci flathead? Name was "32 something" or "something 32". Anyone else remember this?

[Elmo Rodge]

Tubman, you're thinking of "Flat32". We modified one of his setups to run without butterflies for my Bonneville Lakester. I think I have attached a picture.
Wayno

[Gene1949]

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Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

OK, for the sake of discussion, what do you expect to achieve by installing such a system?

I can't speak for the op but I've often considered it myself. Just think, no more fuel issues and an updated ignition system

I like to drive my car without the hassles of the ignition issues you read here constantly or the fuel problems. Fuel injection isn't for the purist or someone who like to futz with fuel or ignition issues alongside the road. Again, you read it here every day.
That's why I went to an electric fuel pump updated fuel hoses and a very simple 4GC carb.
A GM type distributer with a magnetic pickup, HEI brain and a late model "E" coil driving platinum plugs. Very compact setting between the passenger water pump and distributor base

[tubman]

Thanks "Wayno", that's him. I made a few mistakes in my post. First, it wasn't here; it was on the H.A.M.B. Here's a link : https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...d-tune.942729/. Second, it wasn't the twelves, it was the thirteens; still pretty impressive with a full-fendered steel car. This was from 2014; I believe he did dip into the 12's later. And third, it was not 265 ci, it was 268 ci.

Does that answer your question "51 MERC-CT"?

It's probably not really relevant here, though.

[Ol' Ron]

Back in the late 90's I was replacing the engine in my daughter in laws Doge van. Which had a Jap 4 banger in it. It had a one barrel EFI unit on it. I took it home and installed it on a stock 239 flathead. I also took the fuel tank . I had this GE dyno and the engine ran very well, producing more torque than the 94 carb. unfortunately. It wouldn't run over 3000 RPM It was the simplest fuel injection system on the market. Since then I've mage a dozen or so EFI units and never got any running. I blame stupidly and not enough time to devote to it. At present I have a Megasquirt unit which cost less than 400 bucks and has the ignition system it it as well. Put a late 80's GM TB on a merc intake and your in business. When I get the time I'll work on it. But, first. Gota get my 200hp 258 engine running .
Gramps

[Ken Henry]

I have Megaquirt EFI on the 8BA in my 51 Tudor, works great! I used a dual carb intake and customized adapters to mount throttle bodies from a Ducati motorcycle. The ignition advance is also controlled by Megaquirt. I’m using the Ford EDIS8 system with a trigger wheel brazed to the crankshaft pulley. Will try to add some photos to this thread later today. It was not easy or inexpensive to put together and the gains in MPG and power were modest on my stock engine. After a performance rebuild though with increased displacement and CR though...

[tubman]

Seems to be lotsa mentions of "MegaSquirt" by the guys who have done this successfully.

Ron, I'm just putting the finishing touches on my own fresh 258" with a MAX-1, re-worked Edmunds heads, 2 94's on a Navarro "Universal" manifold and a Mallory dual point among others. Where can I find that extra 60 or 70 HP? Supercharger?

[mfirth]

I had an 84 Thunderbird V 8 that had what looked like a two throat carb, but was in fact fuel injection. The base looked like the Ford 2 barrel of that era and i actually ran that style carb on an 8Ba for a while on a Merc manifold with adapter. That F I unit had a return line to the tank. Might be worth looking into. ??? .02 cents or nonsense

[mfirth]

Denny, what will the 258 go into ???

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by tubman

Thanks "Wayno", that's him. I made a few mistakes in my post. First, it wasn't here; it was on the H.A.M.B. Here's a link : https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...d-tune.942729/. Second, it wasn't the twelves, it was the thirteens; still pretty impressive with a full-fendered steel car. This was from 2014; I believe he did dip into the 12's later. And third, it was not 265 ci, it was 268 ci.

Does that answer your question "51 MERC-CT"?

It's probably not really relevant here, though.

My question was posted for the OP.
Are you speaking for the OP?

[Elmo Rodge]

On my car I'm running AEM electronics. Incredible tunability for each cylinder. I've run 172 mph so far with an otherwise fairly mild motor. 284 inches 1.6 intake 1.5 exhaust.
Wayno

[tubman]

"T" tub "Hot Rod". It used to be a bucket, but somebody stole the body (!) while it was in winter storage eons ago. I am resurrecting it as a "Tub" (still a two-seater) to get some decent interior room. Because of my current back, heart, and Corvette problems, it is officially now a "stalled project".

[Kilohertz]

Good morning guys,

Wow! Lots of overnight activity, great.

Well 51-Merc to answer your question first, there are multiple reasons for venturing down the FI path. For one, I am tired of trying to find 60 year old carbs to fit manifolds they weren't designed for, then make them work, fix worn throttle shafts etc. As much as I enjoy tinkering on carbs, points and weights, I've been doing it for 40 some odd years and want to learn and tinker with something newer and combine my electronics knowledge with my mechanical ability. I really like the flathead engine, and this truck build is my first exposure to flatheads, and it's grown on me. It's also my first ground up build, this truck basically has an engine and trans and rear end, all other systems need to be built and installed, so I can pick the fuel tank and pump to work with FI, return lines etc.. I still have the LS engine sitting in the garage, and a couple of good 302s in trucks which would drop right in, but I want this to be a cool old hot rod, with a little bit of a modern twist.

Yes, Megasquirt appeals to me as it comes as a PCB kit and it's something I could assemble in my sleep, although I may find a used one already built. I have a '95 truck with a 350 sitting at the back of the property, under 3' of snow which will have to wait until spring before I can start robbing parts from it, if they are suitable. I think the TB will be too large, but the distributor would be useful if I decide to use GM parts, also the sensors and ECM may be usable.

Some good ideas presented so far as well. I really like the dual motorbike TB idea as they are small and could be a good match for the dual intakes. I have an Offy 4 bbl intake, as well I am in the process of acquiring a Merc 2 bbl manifold which may be what I start with.

I have read about the EDIS system but still need to do more research. O'l Ron I recall seeing a post from you on another forum a few years ago basically asking the same thing, I didn't see much of a reply from that group.

And you boys that have built a system already, yes please, post some pictures for us.

More later.

Cheers

PS here are a few links that I found quite informative.

https://www.fuelinjectedford.com/page1.html

https://www.binderplanet.com/forums/...rt-here.47254/

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=69362

[demiller]

I must say that I am quite surprised at the response, most flathead guys are traditionalists and ignore anything "modern", hell most of them scream at the mention of a T5. I my opinion a tb system is a waste of time, get a 4bl manifold, drill it and weld nozzle bungs in it.The ms system would be a steep learning curve, its not like say an ls where there are loads of tuning maps available all three of the domestic auto makers have adaptable systems up until they went can bus. I think an EEC4 system from a 5.0 Mustang would fill the bill successfully. If you go that route an A9L ecm would be the one to get, plus a tweeker so you can pull some timing and fuel out, then you could even hang a hairdryer on it to really get them looking at you in disgust

[Ken Henry]

Here are a few pictures of my setup. The throttle bodies are Ducati S4R and have one injector each that squirts in below the throttle plate. I swapped the green top Ducati injectors for yellow Subaru injectors that flow ~50% more fuel, as I found the duty cycle was close to maxing out on the originals. Megasquirt is a little tricky to get the hang of and uses TunerStudio running on a laptop for tuning. I bought the 'full' version for a few dollars and it has an autotune function that helps get the fuel map dialed in. There is no way I could got it working without that feature! Other hassles:
running a fuel return line, installing a high pressure electric fuel pump (I put mine in the stock tank), and fitting the trigger wheel to the 8ba crankshaft pulley. I originally tried to run the ignition with Petronix in the distributor and Megasquirt as the coil driver, but couldn't get it to work well. The Ford EDIS system is a little older now but very robust and works great. This was my first conversion. I've since done the same on my Corvair and it was much easier thanks to lessons learned! Each conversion has to be at least $1500, though I don't dare try to add up receipts for any of this. I'm on the younger side for the flathead crowd at 42, which might explain part of the draw to fuel injection; tired of fuel drying up in the bowls or percolating on a hot day and flooding the engine! The driveability is about the same otherwise. Power is up slightly but that's more attributable to going from the stock single to dual intake manifold I think... Ken


DEB4B753-9179-4C19-A7A7-0254C2A6C133 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr


34197E50-A571-49B3-AAF6-8E28AC49C26C by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr


0A123251-307B-42A6-BCB7-1AFA70AF1D46 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

[Ken Henry]

Here's another shot with the air cleaner on. You can also see the PCV valve (blue) at the front and fuel pressure regulator on the firewall. The doodad marked SiemensVDO is an idle air control valve and works in feedback loop to regulate the idle speed. Next up will be some EAB heads with a tight squish area and eventually a Mercury crank!!


7EEF1CBF-000C-450E-ACE2-6B30A94A98D5 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

[Ken Henry]

One limitation to keep in mind if you go with throttle body injection is that if your manifold is single plane (mine is effectively single plain due to the one barrel adapters to the throttle bodies) each injector will need to squirt 8 times per engine revolution for good fuel distribution. If you have a dual plane manifold and each injector squirts into a different plane like with the original GM TBI, it should work fine with four squirts per engine cycle and will generally easier to set up. 8 squirts is a lot to fit in even when the max RPM is 4000 RPM!

[Ol' Ron]

I love it. Why not drill each manafold port and weld in a bung for an injector. Some of these systems fire 4 injectors at a time, so you have to have them aligned with a open falve.AK 87/9 GM system

[Ken Henry]

Thanks Ron! That would be a good way to go, but I’m not set up to weld aluminum bungs in. Would need to find a co-conspirator!! My Megaquirt 2 had two injector circuits that could run 4 injectors each. With eight squirts per cycle (2 revolutions), the pulse width at idle is very low ~1.5 ms but seems to work ok. Ken

[Kilohertz]

Ken, simply awesome!

Thank you for all the pics and descriptions...just got in the house and need to digest it all....lots of great info!!

I'll comment more in the morning, my son is coming for dinner....need to get the toast made.

Thanks

[tubman]

Youse guys are starting to lose me : (ms? I thought that was a women's lib term).

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by tubman

Youse guys are starting to lose me : (ms? I thought that was a women's lib term).

Keep your hands inside the car at all times.


PS I picked up another 4 bbl intake today, a polished Fenton made for the 49-53 with Holley adapter plate...so now I don't feel bad about drilling out my Offy if I decide to go multi-port. One can never have too many induction set-ups...

[tubman]

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Just so you know, I have heard from several reliable sources that Fenton made the best 4 BBL flathead intake. Luckily, I paid "too much" for one on eBay about 8 years ago; in retrospect, it's starting to look like a bargain.

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by tubman

Just so you know, I have heard from several reliable sources that Fenton made the best 4 BBL flathead intake. Luckily, I paid "too much" for one on eBay about 8 years ago; in retrospect, it's starting to look like a bargain.

Too funny, it was your thread or comment that I found, 8 years ago, that I trusted in my search for what it was when I found it before I made my decision....holy cow, somebody call the sentence police...

Thanks Tubman.

Still moving forward with FI though...it's just too much fun not to do...


Cheers

[Scotty's 52 F3]

Anybody ever look at this?
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...gc_small_bore/

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Kilohertz

Still moving forward with FI though...it's just too much fun not to do...

Cheers

And here is the answer for the naysayers and doubters! ....."just too much fun not to do...." It's a personal challenge with great satisfaction when it all works, like when the purist finds a Genuine New Old Stock gizmo for his dash after years of searching!

Plus, you keep the "flavor" of the flathead while enjoying the benefits of EFI, such as no more washing down the cylinders from over-choking or too large jets. Too many guys run a too rich idle mixture because "it sounds better" or they try to tune with a vacuum gauge. This all results in oil dilution and faster engine wear needlessly. I've had the heads off many late model fuel injected engines with well over 200,000 miles, and the crosshatch in the cylinders still is visible at the top of the bore.

Then you have the guys who like to cruise into the drive-in with the choke pulled out because they think it sounds like a full race cam!

[Kilohertz]

40 Deluxe, You are a wise man good kind sir. Stated perfectly. Thank you.

[Ziggster]

Originally Posted by Kilohertz

Well here are a few links that I found quite informative.

https://www.fuelinjectedford.com/page1.html

https://www.binderplanet.com/forums/...rt-here.47254/

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=69362

Just to add based on the link to BinderPlant (IH Truck forum) above. I have a 79 IH Traveler with a 345 2 bbl. in many ways very similar to the flathead. Low power, low top end, poor economy, heavy, etc. Many folks there echo the same issues as raised here. Aside from ditching the boat anchor of a motor, some have opted for a FI system made for the engine. I could see it being adapted, or better yet, perhaps he could make a kit for flatheads if there was enough interest (no affiliation). Not cheap ($1.5K), but IIRC most that have purchased it are very happy with it. As I know little about it, I've provided some links for those interested.

http://www.hamiltonfuelinjection.com/

https://www.ihpartsamerica.com/store/HFI-TBI-SYS.html

http://scoutpluss.com/fuel-injection/

[Mart]

What about those 97 lookalikes that run fuel injectors. Was it Mooneyes? Jim from Royal Kustoms had some here in the UK. I know the setup didn't go without problems though. I seem to remember someone from mooneyes coming over to get it sorted out.

Edit: I just did some googling and had forgot what a shitstorm it was.

[Ken Henry]

I was surprised to find that I could not lean out the idle mixture beyond 13:1, similar to what Ron mentions in the timing thread, without things getting rough; maybe a leaner AFR would be possible with port injectors? On the other hand this might result from the combustion chamber shape. A nice thing about EFI, for a modified engine, is that you can easily change AFR or timing with a laptop and see the effect

[itslow]

Originally Posted by Kilohertz

...I am tired of trying to find 60 year old carbs to fit manifolds they weren't designed for, then make them work, fix worn throttle shafts etc.

What the heck carburetors are you trying to put on your flathead intake?

The 97, 94, 81 style carburetors that are common and era-appropriate are bolt-on mates for the intakes that would be used on these engines. You can also buy them (well, 97s, anyway) new with zero of the issues you might find with an old carburetor that's in need of a rebuild.

Seems like those aren't really logical reasons for wanting to go to EFI.

I can understand reasons such as: better throttle response and driveability, instant start-up, improved spark and fuel control, variable tuning, etc, though.

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

After owning Linder Fuel Injection for 24 years and shipping thousands of injectors , we installed quite a few systems :

Mega squirt is entirely too much work ?? Most never run ..

I would suggest using a stock ecm ( thousands of parameters are already installed )
Use the edelbrock four barrel manifold with a adapter for the TBI throttle body injection , buy a used throttle body as close as matching your cubic inch .....MAYBE A 4.3 CI V 6
Use a adjustable fuel pressure regulator to trim the system if needed , also buy a adjustable map sensor .....
I would buy a new tbi chevy distributor to use the auto timing features and just machine for the flathead ...
Electric frame mounted fuel pump with return line .
Buy a harness from Larrys Electric in Ruma illinois and use a ecm from him if he has one . I have used Larry for quite a few conversions etc .
Trust the factory ( who have made millions of units when possible...
Keep it simple and you will love it .
I installed one of these on my hot rod model a truck , painted the unit eastwood gold to look like a carb and hid the dual fuel lines with a large piece of shrink tube , drove it for years and every show we were in everyone just thought it was a carb under that aircleaner

KEEP IT SIMPLE AND YOU WILL LOVE IT !!!!!!
glad to help

[Ken Henry]

Originally Posted by Scotty's 52 F3

Anybody ever look at this?
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...gc_small_bore/

This would be a great option I think. Has some self tuning features built in and could used a modified Mercury manifold, correct? It would be really hard to put a junkyard system together for less money. But what would you do with all the time (and aggravation!) you save?? Ken

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by itslow

What the heck carburetors are you trying to put on your flathead intake?

I was trying to get more performance by using a 4 bbl manifold, but both manifolds I have were made for the 4 bbl carbs from the 50's, the small base Carter WCFB and Rochester 4G, again small base. These days they are rare, and to date I have only found a couple but they were the larger bore, higher CFM, not ideal. I could buy the adapter plate but again, a new Holley 390 is $1100 here, and used ones aren't around.

Ken, your lean out issue, is it possible the injectors were too high flow rate? I have read if the injectors are too small they max out on duty cycle and can't provide enough fuel, maybe the same happens on the other end...Just a thought.

Cheers

[TomT/Williamsburg]

You can also buy the 94s new as well, both as a primary and as a secondary unit for a progressive setup. They are both on my avatar using a “Y” adapter on a stock intake. However, the primary jets provided are waay too rich and need to be swapped out for leaner units where I live.

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by BUBBAS IGNITION

I would suggest using a stock ecm ( thousands of parameters are already installed ) I would buy a new tbi chevy distributor to use the auto timing features and just machine for the flathead ...

Thanks Jim. What I have read is the late 80's and into the 90's GM ECM is desirable. I have a 1995 GM1500 with a 350 in it, would that make a good donor for distributor and ECM? Is it the same vintage you were thinking of?

Originally Posted by BUBBAS IGNITION

Use the edelbrock four barrel manifold with a adapter for the TBI throttle body injection , buy a used throttle body as close as matching your cubic inch .....MAYBE A 4.3 CI V 6

I have the Offy and Fenton 4 bbl manifolds, I'm sure one of them would work...and yes, I am looking for either a 2.8L or 4.3L TBI body.

Originally Posted by BUBBAS IGNITION

buy a adjustable map sensor .....

Would this suggest you are using a "speed density" system,or does the MAF system use MAP sensor as well?

Thanks for the guidance Jim.

Cheers

[5851a]

Just curious but modern port injection seems to spray at back of the intake valve and seems like it would be hard to do in a flathead. I know it's not like a squirt gun but comes out of injector as a fog, seems that would be ok with sequential injection but a batch fire would it tend to run down the valve guides. Just asking because I don't know. That Holley system is interesting. All of the electronic systems are going to involve 12V, some fuel system work and static/spike suppression.

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

Originally Posted by Kilohertz

Thanks Jim. What I have read is the late 80's and into the 90's GM ECM is desirable. I have a 1995 GM1500 with a 350 in it, would that make a good donor for distributor and ECM? Is it the same vintage you were thinking of?



I have the Offy and Fenton 4 bbl manifolds, I'm sure one of them would work...and yes, I am looking for either a 2.8L or 4.3L TBI body.



Would this suggest you are using a "speed density" system,or does the MAF system use MAP sensor as well?

Thanks for the guidance Jim.

Cheers

yep that system will work well and you have all the sensors . a harness from Larrys and yer done .....

[demiller]

Would this suggest you are using a "speed density" system,or does the MAF system use MAP sensor as well?

Thanks for the guidance Jim.

Cheers[/QUOTE]

A mass air flow(MAF) system would be more desirable than a speed density. I know that a late 80's early 90's Chrysler MAF sensor is also a MAP sensor, my old man memory is not sure if GM and Ford also are. The weakness of the early GM ecms was the fuel maps were all in the prom to change one that the self tuning wouldn't correct the prom had to be change. The aftermarket may have had a tuner that with the aid of a laptop could change the maps on the fly...never having been a GM guy I couldn't say. The Fords of the same era had a covered service port on the ecm where aftermarket "tuners" could be attached to modify the fuel and timing maps. The 5.0L Mustang guys were their target costomers

[HotRodmicky]

Originally Posted by Ken Henry

Here are a few pictures of my setup. The throttle bodies are Ducati S4R and have one injector each that squirts in below the throttle plate. I swapped the green top Ducati injectors for yellow Subaru injectors that flow ~50% more fuel, as I found the duty cycle was close to maxing out on the originals. Megasquirt is a little tricky to get the hang of and uses TunerStudio running on a laptop for tuning. I bought the 'full' version for a few dollars and it has an autotune function that helps get the fuel map dialed in. There is no way I could got it working without that feature! Other hassles:
running a fuel return line, installing a high pressure electric fuel pump (I put mine in the stock tank), and fitting the trigger wheel to the 8ba crankshaft pulley. I originally tried to run the ignition with Petronix in the distributor and Megasquirt as the coil driver, but couldn't get it to work well. The Ford EDIS system is a little older now but very robust and works great. This was my first conversion. I've since done the same on my Corvair and it was much easier thanks to lessons learned! Each conversion has to be at least $1500, though I don't dare try to add up receipts for any of this. I'm on the younger side for the flathead crowd at 42, which might explain part of the draw to fuel injection; tired of fuel drying up in the bowls or percolating on a hot day and flooding the engine! The driveability is about the same otherwise. Power is up slightly but that's more attributable to going from the stock single to dual intake manifold I think... Ken


DEB4B753-9179-4C19-A7A7-0254C2A6C133 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr


34197E50-A571-49B3-AAF6-8E28AC49C26C by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr


0A123251-307B-42A6-BCB7-1AFA70AF1D46 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

Hi ,
Great set up !
do you have a part number for the yellow subaru injectors?
Because they dont look like the " normal" injectors that i know .

[Ken Henry]

Thanks! I believe they are 04/06 wrx sti injectors, ~550cc/min. They are ‘side feed’ style which is unusual, but fits the throttle bodies I have. Ken

[HotRodmicky]

Cool ,thank you.
What coil packs do you use and how did you mount the trigger wheel to the 8ba pulley?
Last question :-) how do you mount the trigger sensor ?
Tia
Micky

[Ken Henry]

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The coils packs are from a late 90s Ford Explorer. They are fine but take special spark plug wire boots, available from Kingsborne wires. In retrospect I would use late 90s Chrysler coil packs, which use standard boots.


The trigger wheel is 6 3/4" diameter from diyautotune.com. I bored out the small center hole so that it would slip over the hub on the backside of the crank pulley, and brazed it around the perimeter at three locations.


The sensor (stock Ford VR) is mounted using a two piece aluminum bracket that bolts to the 7/16" holes just inboard from the driver's side water pump. I mounted mine slightly too high and had to whittle down the sensor body to clear the belt! Sorry: this is the best picture I could get!



A772FC73-578C-4782-9812-EC4AD0352756 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

[Kilohertz]

I just pushed another truck home with my Bobcat...he he. A 1994 Ford F-150 4x4 auto. All I needed was the brake pedal and my neighbor said I had to take the whole truck. It has a MAF 302 in it so it could be usable for something, brakes are good on it and it's a 4x4 so can probably sell some stuff from it to help pay for other flathead items.



I also drove my 1995 Chev truck that another neighbor gave me last year, down the hill yesterday after I plowed 2' of snow off the trail. Damn thing fired right up. Gotta love fuel injection. It's what I have decided to use for the injection system on the flathead. GM late 80's and into early 90's are very popular and easily tunable and parts are readily available. This truck has everything I need except for the 2.8L GM throttle body. I should be able to find one of those locally.


More later.


Cheers

[glennpm]

[QUOTE=Ken Henry;1985560]Here's another shot with the air cleaner on. You can also see the PCV valve (blue) at the front and fuel pressure regulator on the firewall. The doodad marked SiemensVDO is an idle air control valve and works in feedback loop to regulate the idle speed. Next up will be some EAB heads with a tight squish area and eventually a Mercury crank!!

Hi Ken,


What did you use for the air cleaner please?


Great looking Ford Ken!


Glenn

[Ken Henry]

Thanks Glenn! I ordered a 12" aluminum air cleaner from ebay and an extra top. For the base, I bored two holes in the correct position for the two throttle bodies. You should be able to see some hex standoffs at the top of the throttle bodies on some of the pictures. These are for securing the base down to the throttle bodies, which is done with the velocity stacks removed since the openings in the air cleaner base are smaller than the tops of the velocity stacks. Then the velocity stack pop in along with seals where they pass through the air cleaner. I'll try to post a picture later. I might go to a taller air cleaner since I have plenty of room under the hood... Ken

[Ken Henry]

Originally Posted by Kilohertz

I just pushed another truck home with my Bobcat...he he. A 1994 Ford F-150 4x4 auto. All I needed was the brake pedal and my neighbor said I had to take the whole truck. It has a MAF 302 in it so it could be usable for something, brakes are good on it and it's a 4x4 so can probably sell some stuff from it to help pay for other flathead items.
Cheers

Definitely get the EDIS parts from the Ford. I really like mine. Does the 95 Chevy truck throttle body have injectors incorporated? If so it might be an easy way to go. I think it is less of a problem to use too big of a TB compared to too big of a carb... Ken

[Kilohertz]

Hi Ken,

Thanks, yes I will be pulling the complete 5.0L engine and EDIS system from the Ford. I also have a '88 F-150 with the speed/density system as another option. I have 20 acres so it's no problem keeping these intact for now...easier to move around.

As I got the '95 Chevy running so well yesterday and it's in such good condition, I'm going to keep it as my farm truck. Yesterday I found a complete 1990 C1500 truck at the wreckers and have made a deal to pull the whole ECM TBI system from it, including the 1227747 ECM which is the desirable, tunable ECM. It has been converted to propane but I don't think that is a problem, I'll still find the right TB unit, there are lots around and as you said, they are not as critical as far as CFM is concerned as carbs. The 2.8L TBI is 240 CFM, the 4.3, 5 and 5.7 are 500 CFM and the fuel injectors are what really control the fuel delivery, anywhere from 28 lbs/hr to 85 lbs/hr so I could use the 500 CFM TB with the smaller injectors if need be. The nice thing about the 2.8L TB is that their bores are 1 3/8" vs 1 11/16" of the 500CFM units, which is a better match for the Merc manifold.

cheers

[Ken Henry]

I run two 550 cc/min (52 lb/hr) injectors with 8 squirts per engine cycle, simultaneous, and it works OK. The injectors are just barely in the linear part of their input-output range at warm idle and the duty cycle is OK at full throttle. This was necessary because with the design of the intake manifold and throttle body adapters, each injector sprays into both planes of the manifold. You will be better off, with each injector spraying into a different plane... Might I suggest two 2.8L TBIs on a dual carb manifold?!?! Good luck! Ken

[glennpm]

Thanks Ken!



I have two 97's with the little filters. I noticed the observation about flow with them and though I'd look into one larger one. I appreciated your info.


Glenn

[HotRodmicky]

Hi Ken , where can i buy that stromberg bolt pattern to "Ducati" adapters?
They dont look homemade....
Micky

[Ken Henry]

Hi Micky, I used an adapter made by Thickstun and had my friend with a mill modify the 1 barrel side do that the inside and outside diameters matched the throttle body base. I think I got my adapters on eBay... Ken

[Kilohertz]

I went to the wreckers yesterday and pulled the whole TBI system from the 1990 C1500 truck and started cleaning it up and stripping out all the superfluous wires and connectors etc. I discovered I forgot to remove the knock sensor but will probably buy a new one if I decide to use it as it is mounted right below the exhaust manifold in the block water jacket and is a bugger to get to. The ECM will operate just fine without it, it just won't retard the timing as it senses a knock as it would in the stock engine. If I program the spark curve correctly, it probably won't be an issue anyway. I mean the 8BA distributor didn't have a knock sensor.

So my question to the community is regarding a block drain on the 8BA engine. From what I have found they were on the water pump mounting area but I can't seem to find any pictures or descriptions of where they are. I also found that they were not used in later engines, mine is C1BA and is 1951. I was thinking that if the area that had the hole drilled could still be used, I may be able to use that for the knock sensor. I don't want to start drilling without knowing what I am doing.

Could someone familiar with these block drains let me know more about them? Exactly where they are/were and is it safe to drill a hole where it was located?

Cheers

[Ken Henry]

I'm not familiar with tuning the GM ECU but my Megasquirt installation doesn't use a knock sensor and, with the low compression ratio of most flatheads, I doubt you there would be much advantage to using one. Advance at WOT should increase from around 5* at 500 rpm to 20-22* at 2000 rpm and above.

[HotRodmicky]

Well, a big cc flathead with low octane fuel will knock.... bad chamber design.
Happend to me when we traveld to Wales for the Pendine Sands racing.
Best cure is 102 octance German fuel. Second is octane booster.
I run 24 degrees at 2000 rpm. Nothing radical.and not needed.
But i also think that a knock sensor is not needed.

[Kilohertz]

Okay, well that's great news, I'll forget the knock sensor and carry on.

I continued cleaning up the harness yesterday and brought a 4.3L throttle body unit home to play with until I find the 2.8L one. I have all the sensors and such and am ready to start assembling the system, I just need to find that elusive Merc manifold. I know of 2 but am waiting for a road trip to get one.

Ken, your suggestion of having each injector spray into only one side of the manifold is definitely my plan and I may go even one further. I found that the GM ECM has 2 different injector drive signals but they always fire at the same time in original configuration. As I work my way thru understanding the EPROM code I am going to try to find a way to fire each injector separately, I'm not sure how important this is, but if I can batch fire 4 cylinders at a time instead of 8....just thinking out loud. I know the wet manifold isn't the best design.

Cheers

[Ken Henry]

I bet it will work just fine batch firing both of your injectors four time per engine cycle given that they are shooting into different planes, but I totally understand your desire to make it 'theoretically' better! I'm doing a bunch of minor modifications to my system right now that I doubt will change much, but should look a little 'cleaner'. If you decide to pick up a Megasquirt ECU it can definitely alternate injector firing between the two circuits. I had mine set up that way at first but it didn't work well due to my single plane manifold I think, with one injector closer to the rear cylinders and one closer to the front. Can you use a WB O2 input into the GM ECM?

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by Ken Henry

If you decide to pick up a Megasquirt ECU it can definitely alternate injector firing between the two circuits. I had mine set up that way at first but it didn't work well due to my single plane manifold I think, with one injector closer to the rear cylinders and one closer to the front. Can you use a WB O2 input into the GM ECM?

If I can find a Megasquirt at a reasonable price I would certainly try it, I have wanted to for a few years. I was going to fuel inject one of my dune buggies, was going to build an old D or L Jetronic system but just never got around to it. I have all the parts and good FI engine cores.

I'm not sure about wide band O2 on the GM ECM? I am still searching for how to program the darn thing. I can find lots of BIN files with mods that have been done by others, but just not the logic or program that translates the binary into something like, "add more fuel at this RPM and vacuum" etc. I'll figure it out eventually.

I am currently building a WIN95 or 98 machine, boy that's fun, so I can run my old DOS based EPROM programmer. Sure glad I kept all my old Windows software...once a nerd, always a nerd. The hardest part is finding a 486 machine...ha ha.

Cheers

[HotRodmicky]

You can get a 8x8 Ecu for around $300 from Australia if you want to go full sequentiell
Just weld some injectors bungs in a manifold , crank and cam sensor , and use COP or coil packs and try it.
Lots of fun , but will it be worth it ?
Good question....

[Ken Henry]

I decided to clean up my EFI installation a bit and converted to these ignition coils from a Cadillac northstar engine. The coil pack has a built in ignition module which I bypassed, so they're controlled by the Ford EDIS system. The spark plugs are run through plastic tubes and wrapped in 'ClassicBraid' split wire looms. A nice benefit of the coils is that they use standard HEI style terminals rather than the oddball two-piece EDIS ones...


F42DB928-8DFA-4DFA-8AD3-B8264D05CF0A by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

[markdtn]

That setup is very nice! I have thought about this and I would have done it like Bubba suggested-TBI with 4.3 GM ECM and small-cap Chevy distributor converted to flathead. But going Ford EDIS is next level. I am just finishing a 5.0 Explorer swap into a '66 Mustang using the coil packs and all (not converting to Mustang computer and distributor). Not many people go this way as it is hard to find someone who can program the computer.

[cmbrucew]

https://www.motec.com.au/m800/m800overview/
You guys might consider this.
Bruce

[mrtexas]

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I installed a FITech unit on my 41 flathead. Didn't try very hard but couldn't get it to work. It ran WOT all the time. Must have been a vacuum leak...

[big job]

My thought bottom line: Think I'll take a ride for some milk in my 23 touring. Well come out of driveway and WHOOHO a 23 touring car across the street gas station getting a inspection sticker I turn around got behind him. Very nice 'nice as mine'. Middle age guy proud of his ""modern"" electronic distributor? foolishness: Now his turn for the sticker. No start nothing? I say I got a screwdriver in my toolbox. Huh? I say I have four coils no nonsense even If one goes bad got 3 more coils get ya home.
So he didn't a sticker but got a flat bed! Thats what one is up against Injection and computers can not be fixed results you are done, so no thank you. My V8 starts on a dime with out a choke in the coldest temps, and its 6volts too.

[Pete]

Many have tried and a few have succeeded in making a mechanical fuel injection work on the street with no flat spots. When it works, the throttle reaponse is like nothing you have ever driven.
I have done 2 flatheads, one 296 with an original flat base Hilborn right out of the box and the other using an adapted 2.5 inch BBC unit on a 352 ci engine.
On both I had to make new barrel valve shafts with curves I arrived at by cut and try.
I am all for electronic injection but just sayin' the old stuff can be made to work also.
Costwise probably about the same with used parts.

[Kilohertz]

After a crazy busy stressful summer dealing with wildfire threats, work etc., I am getting ready to continue the FI system for the flathead.

I finally found a 2.8L throttle body which has 1 3/8" bores that match the Fenton 4bbl bores. I came up with an idea to use the 4bbl manifold, by rotating the throttle body 45* to match up the left front/right rear holes of the manifold. The bore spacing of the TB is only about 1/8" wider than the diagonal bores of the manifold so very little machining will be required, and the TB mounting holes will be out of the way of the 4 square bolts of the manifold. I would remove that Holley 4bbl adapter and build my own to match up the bores and mounting bolts required, and cover up the other two unused intake bores.

I also have made tremendous progress on the software side of things. I'm using the 1990 GM TBI system and have TunerPro software which allows real world data manipulation of all parameters, fuel, spark etc. and then programs that into a BIN file which I can then burn into the PROM, which pops back into the ECM. I found some EEPROMS which are reusable chips that can be erased in seconds and programmed the same.

I'm still busy at work but have all of this in place for when the snow flies and work slows down.

What do you think about mounting the TB rotated like I describe? I don't see why it wouldn't work. Each plane of the manifold is isolated from left to right. The gasket I used in the picture is from the larger 4.3 TB, the 2.8L has smaller bores.

Looking forward to getting this running this winter.

Cheers

[Ken Henry]

I think that would work if you go with some kind of throttle cable. Do you have wideband O2 sensor to help with tuning?

[Kilohertz]

Thanks Ken,

I bought an Innovate LC-2 to tune my BMW bikes this year but haven't opened it yet. I think it is wide band but will confirm.

Cheers

[Kilohertz]

A quick update on my progress with the GM TBI injection project.

I picked up a scrap piece of 1/2" aluminum from the local machine shop, bought a Rota-Broach set and got to work laying out the adapter plate to mate the 2.8L throttle body to the Fenton 4bbl manifold, paper tracings, center punch, straight edge and a little patience and I have it built, just need the proper countersink bit for the 4 holes to mount to the manifold and thread the holes for the TB and trim the excess material and it's ready to install. I'm going to just hang the computer on the firewall for now, connect the sensors and try it just programmed as is for a 305, fine tuning can come later.

I'll keep you updated as I make progress.

Cheers

PS Ken, yes LC-2 is a wide band O2 controller.

[Ken Henry]

Interesting, I’m not familiar with the Rota-broach. Seems handy! I think there was another guy on here who was using the GM TBI computer and posted a running setup 4-6 months ago. Will look ok to see if I can find it…

[tubman]

"Rota-Broaches" while kind of expensive, are very handy for stuff like this for those of us without milling machines. I use them a lot in making my condensers. You will need an arbor, and then you can use a variety of sizes of cutters.

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by tubman

"Rota-Broaches" while kind of expensive, are very handy for stuff like this for those of us without milling machines. I use them a lot in making my condensers. You will need an arbor, and then you can use a variety of sizes of cutters.

I bought the large set. 11091 I think, it was $250 cdn on Amazon...works as slick as can be...I drilled those 1.375" holes in less than 30 seconds each...very slick. And a beautiful finish as well, very smooth.

Drilled and tapped the TBI body holes today and will cut off the excess material tomorrow....EFI, here we come.

Cheers

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Ken Henry

Interesting, I’m not familiar with the Rota-broach. Seems handy! I think there was another guy on here who was using the GM TBI computer and posted a running setup 4-6 months ago. Will look ok to see if I can find it…

Quite likely this thread in the link BELOW! DD


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...fuel+injection

.

[Kilohertz]

I finished making the adapter plate and custom gasket for it and can now proceed with mounting the 4 bbl manifold and throttle body.

It's interesting to note that I used more woodworking tools than metal tools to make this plate. The drill press for the holes and my compound sliding miter saw with carbide blade to cut the outside dimensions, and a router with the roller bearing 45* cutter to radius the edges, both worked amazingly well on the aluminum, cool.

More later....

Cheers

[Scotty's 52 F3]

Very cool. Great job improvising. Looking forward to seeing this run.
Scott

[Kilohertz]

SUCCESS!!

I have been working on the GM TBI system as much as I can in the past month and have made some terrific progress. I machined the adapter plate for the throttle body, then polished it and mounted it on the engine. I have figured out the harness and for testing purposes have just hung it on the firewall. I am using the stock Chevy 305 ECM just to try my ideas before I start reprogramming the internal EPROM. I bought an external fuel pump that will meet the TB requirements as I didn't want to fill the new tank with gas until I finish the fill pipe fabrication. I also had to machine another GM distributor as the TBI system uses a module and inductive pickup in the distributor. I will detail the ECM minimum requirements later, but for now....a video is worth 1,000 words.

More later.

Cheers









The video link

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pfm21cuj7t..._1356.mov?dl=0

[tubman]

That's more than a good start! Excellent job!

Lots of wires, though; looks like a bunch of them aren't being used, correct?

[Kilohertz]

Appreciate the compliment.

Yes I just wanted to confirm it was going to work before I started building the wiring harness properly and attaching it to the engine and firewall. I also need to paint the firewall and detail the engine bay before starting to attach wires. There is still lots of tuning to do as currently it is "just" running but that will all come in time. There are about 58,000 parameters that can be changed in the computer, ha ha so I am just beginning to learn. There’s a few things I need to focus on, the fuel tables and spark timing tables. I was just happy to hear it fire up, it was a very cool moment.

More later.

Cheers

[Ken Henry]

Really nice work! The engine sounds great and I'm sure you'll be cruising around in no time. What are you planning to use for an air cleaner?

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by Ken Henry

Really nice work! The engine sounds great and I'm sure you'll be cruising around in no time. What are you planning to use for an air cleaner?

Thanks Ken!

Cruising around...maybe 2022, more likely 2023. And air cleaner....Mmmm? That's currently on page 17 of things to do on the truck. Ha! I haven't thought about it yet but it will be something period correct (50's not 90's) I even polished the steel fuel supply and return lines, they look like chrome now, not sure how long that will last but they are only 18" stubs going to fuel hose to absorb the engine vibration before going back to steel on the frame rail, they will be easy to remove if I need to re-polish them.

Now I am starting to dive into the programming of the ECM chip which is going to take some doing, but it's all part of the fun.

Cheers

[Kilohertz]

Forgot to ask, does anybody here know what the BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) is for the 239 Flathead? It's a different form of VE and I need it for some of the calculations for the ECM.

Thanks!

[Zeke3]

So, I come from the Diesel world and the BSFC was published along with the torque and horsepower curves for a given engine. All the curves were at full load (full throttle although there is no throttling on a Diesel engine like on a gasoline engine). The BSFC curve was usually a smile shaped curve with the low point occurring at the peak torque point and the units are lbs. of fuel consumed per brake horsepower * hour (#/bhp-hr).

Maybe JWL took some fuel consumption measurements during the dyno testing that his book is based on.

I did find a some graphs in an old text book that put the sfc for a mid 60s Buick V6 in the 0.42 to 0.50 #/hp-hr range.

Good luck with your project, the engine sounds like it idled well.

[V8COOPMAN]

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Originally Posted by Kilohertz

I even polished the steel fuel supply and return lines, they look like chrome now, not sure how long that will last but they are only 18" stubs going to fuel hose to absorb the engine vibration before going back to steel on the frame rail, they will be easy to remove if I need to re-polish them.

Back in about 1992 when I was doing a body-off restoration on our '65 Corvette Coupe, I merely applied spray-bomb CLEAR to the shiny steel brake and fuel lines. Upon closer inspection about two months ago with the car's new owner, those lines appear just about as nice and shiny today as they were 29 years ago. DD
.

[Kilohertz]

A quick update…

I have been making all sorts of tuning changes in the ECM and have it running much better. Still many changes to make, there are literally hundreds of parameters that can be adjusted.

I’ll update again a bit later. Updated video link below.

Cheers

https://www.dropbox.com/s/676w1drzmv..._1359.MOV?dl=0

[Ken Henry]

Excellent! I know what you mean about so many parameters. It can make it kind of daunting to tune, but you'll get there! Unfortunately I can't get the new video to play.

[tubman]

That link doesn't work for me either.

[Kilohertz]

Thanks for letting me know...made this post on my phone today...I just redid it...try again pls and let me know.

I can program a GM ECM but can't post a simple link...

cheers

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by Zeke3

So, I come from the Diesel world and the BSFC was published along with the torque and horsepower curves for a given engine. All the curves were at full load (full throttle although there is no throttling on a Diesel engine like on a gasoline engine). The BSFC curve was usually a smile shaped curve with the low point occurring at the peak torque point and the units are lbs. of fuel consumed per brake horsepower * hour (#/bhp-hr).

Maybe JWL took some fuel consumption measurements during the dyno testing that his book is based on.

I did find a some graphs in an old text book that put the sfc for a mid 60s Buick V6 in the 0.42 to 0.50 #/hp-hr range.

Good luck with your project, the engine sounds like it idled well.

Thanks Zeke,

I searched again today but still can't find any solid data on BSFC , I found one comment said "about 75% VE" but that is pretty vague.

Anybody have and data on BFSC?

Cheers

[Als48]

Looking and sounding good! The video works for me.

Al Hook

[Ken Henry]

Awesome!! I can post my fuel table from Megaquirt tomorrow if that would be helpful? I’m not sure it’s 100% dialed in but runs pretty good for a stock 8BA with dual throttle bodies and no other mods. Ken

[Kilohertz]

Thanks Ken,

I think for now I will work with what is already in the ECM, it learns as it goes so once I have my data interface cable built, I can monitor the live data and make required changes. Also our injectors are different and probably fuel pressure as well, I'm finding out there are a lot of external variables that influence the tune.

Thank you for the offer.

cheers

[Kilohertz]

I have made tremendous progress this past weekend and have pretty much dialed in the idle and off idle settings. It starts right up, even when it's 5C in the shop, and warms up and idles down to a nice 700 RPM idle. I have figured out how to log the data with my laptop and can see all the parameters required for tuning. I also successfully installed a PCV setup, it's just for testing right now, I will make it out of aluminum for the final version but it's what I had on hand to test it.

Now I can pull it all off the firewall and paint the firewall, then start installing the proper wiring harness and make it look correct.

That's the current update.

Cheers

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nj7755ypdh..._1442.MOV?dl=0

[Mart]

You have done a great job getting it running and idling like that. I will be interested in seeing how it looks once you have finished the tidying up. Would it be best to wait until the vehicle is up and running before doing further tuning work?
Mart.

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by Mart

You have done a great job getting it running and idling like that. I will be interested in seeing how it looks once you have finished the tidying up. Would it be best to wait until the vehicle is up and running before doing further tuning work?
Mart.

Thanks Mart!

Yes, I will either look for an engine harness from an S-10 Blaser/Jimmy, which doesn't have the big ugly bulkhead in the harness, or hide this one under the dash with the computer. I am trying to locate some cloth wrap for the harness, I think that would have been period correct, if not, the split loom stuff will work. I am planning on putting the computer under the dash, very close to the heater box, and run the harness thru the pre-drilled hole in the floorboards, right under the heater box. It should give me enough length to get to the distributor, the farthest point on the engine.

For sure, further tuning will have to wait until I get it on the road, which will be spring time. I just wanted to prove I could make it work reliably and then proceed with other items, of which there are many.

Cheers

[V8COOPMAN]

.

K-Hertz ......My hat is off to you, Sir. Some parts of this are still a little over my head, but your latest video is obviously showing the rewards of your work, and mostly all with junkyard parts. Can't wait 'till you're able to sneak a ride around the block. PLEASE keep us in the loop. I'm digging this big time! DD
.

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

.

K-Hertz ......My hat is off to you, Sir. Some parts of this are still a little over my head, but your latest video is obviously showing the rewards of your work, and mostly all with junkyard parts. Can't wait 'till you're able to sneak a ride around the block. PLEASE keep us in the loop. I'm digging this big time! DD
.

Thank you Dave, I really appreciate the compliment, especially from one of the forums more knowledgeable flathead guys.

I made a cold start this morning, 5C in the shop, and she fired right up, sat at 1000 RPM for about 40 seconds, then dropped down to 900 after the time delay built in...then once she hit 80C temp, dropped to 700 RPM and 12* SA, just like I programmed it. One thing I noted is that right after start she was a little rough, barking out the exhaust, timing was 16* which I think is what was causing that. There are tables in the BIN file that add spark timing when cold for the original GM 350, so tonight I deleted those and will try again tomorrow morning to see if she is happier with just the 12*.

I am REALLY enjoying being able to use my electronics background to improve the running of a 70 year old engine. My Dad commented tonight that in all his years of hot rodding flatheads in the 50's, he has never seen one run so well, and been so snappy off idle, as this one. That's enough to make me happy.

It was also pretty amusing machining PVC pipe fittings on the lathe to test the PCV system...I live in the country and try to use what I have on hand to save the hour trip into town...it worked, and there is great evacuation of the engine crankcase with this setup.

I'll report back in the morning after I try the reduced timing.

Cheers

[Ken Henry]

I used ‘classic braid’ from Painless Wiring. It has a dull finish like cloth and I’m really happy with it. Unfortunately it’s not cheap and it’s best to buy a few different diameters.

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by Ken Henry

I used ‘classic braid’ from Painless Wiring. It has a dull finish like cloth and I’m really happy with it. Unfortunately it’s not cheap and it’s best to buy a few different diameters.

Thanks Ken, Awesome recommendation. I looked it up, it looks awesome and our local supplier carries it in stock. I ordered the whole chassis kit which has a wide variety of sizes, $240 CDN, p/n 70970.

Cheers

[Ken Henry]

Awesome! I hope you like it too! I think it looks so much better than the plastic corrugated stuff. I usually cut it and punch holes w a junk soldering iron, since it IS stranded plastic despite looking like cloth

[Kilohertz]

I know I have published a number of these updates, but it's just so much fun seeing this engine run as well as it does...can hardly wait to drive it in the spring.

If anyone wants to try this I am willing to help out with the details...while it's still fresh in this old brain.

Cheers

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7h501pl5cp..._1481.MOV?dl=0

[SoCalCoupe]

Originally Posted by Ken Henry

Here are a few pictures of my setup. The throttle bodies are Ducati S4R and have one injector each that squirts in below the throttle plate. I swapped the green top Ducati injectors for yellow Subaru injectors that flow ~50% more fuel, as I found the duty cycle was close to maxing out on the originals. Megasquirt is a little tricky to get the hang of and uses TunerStudio running on a laptop for tuning. I bought the 'full' version for a few dollars and it has an autotune function that helps get the fuel map dialed in. There is no way I could got it working without that feature! Other hassles:
running a fuel return line, installing a high pressure electric fuel pump (I put mine in the stock tank), and fitting the trigger wheel to the 8ba crankshaft pulley. I originally tried to run the ignition with Petronix in the distributor and Megasquirt as the coil driver, but couldn't get it to work well. The Ford EDIS system is a little older now but very robust and works great. This was my first conversion. I've since done the same on my Corvair and it was much easier thanks to lessons learned! Each conversion has to be at least $1500, though I don't dare try to add up receipts for any of this. I'm on the younger side for the flathead crowd at 42, which might explain part of the draw to fuel injection; tired of fuel drying up in the bowls or percolating on a hot day and flooding the engine! The driveability is about the same otherwise. Power is up slightly but that's more attributable to going from the stock single to dual intake manifold I think... Ken


DEB4B753-9179-4C19-A7A7-0254C2A6C133 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

Great setup Ken! How did you connect the throttle bodies to your manifold? Saw in another picture that it's a normal flathead 2-carb manifold. What 3-hole carb adaptors did you use and how did you attach the throttle bodies?

[Ken Henry]

Thanks! They are Thickstun adapters that I got on ebay, designed for mounting a holley or stromberg 3 bolt carb onto a one barrel intake manifold (2 bolt). I had a friend in the machine shop cut off the mounting ears on the 1 barrel side and turn down the inside and outside diameter to match the throttle bodies I had in mine. The throttle bodies are mounted to the adapter with rubber hoses and hose clamps, similar to some motorcycle setups.


With two one barrel throttle bodies squirting into both planes of the intake manifold, both injectors have to operate at the same time (once for every ignition event) to get an even fuel distribution to the cylinders. There is simply not much time to get enough fuel in at WOT and "high" RPMs (4000 rpm = 3.75 ms between ignition events). You can use high-flowing injectors but they can have trouble idling well due to the very short on time. I solved this by adding a set of secondary injectors, perched above the velocity stacks, that come on when needed. Better yet would be a system with 2 barrel throttle bodies that maintains the separation between intake planes. The you have 7.5 ms to get the fuel in...



6281357E-DA50-4FCF-AA98-DFAC266ABB9D by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr


85263390-22BA-409C-B463-E67B4E81D095 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

[Kilohertz]

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That looks awesome Ken, nice job!

[HotRodmicky]

Wow!

[SoCalCoupe]

Originally Posted by Ken Henry

Thanks! They are Thickstun adapters that I got on ebay, designed for mounting a holley or stromberg 3 bolt carb onto a one barrel intake manifold (2 bolt). I had a friend in the machine shop cut off the mounting ears on the 1 barrel side and turn down the inside and outside diameter to match the throttle bodies I had in mine. The throttle bodies are mounted to the adapter with rubber hoses and hose clamps, similar to some motorcycle setups.


With two one barrel throttle bodies squirting into both planes of the intake manifold, both injectors have to operate at the same time (once for every ignition event) to get an even fuel distribution to the cylinders. There is simply not much time to get enough fuel in at WOT and "high" RPMs (4000 rpm = 3.75 ms between ignition events). You can use high-flowing injectors but they can have trouble idling well due to the very short on time. I solved this by adding a set of secondary injectors, perched above the velocity stacks, that come on when needed. Better yet would be a system with 2 barrel throttle bodies that maintains the separation between intake planes. The you have 7.5 ms to get the fuel in...

Awesome! Thanks for the additional information. Easy to see how that interface would work well. Just need to find a local shop to do the work to match the throttle bodies.

[Detroit Flathead]

Kilohertz,
I was not expecting to find this cool thread, but I'm certainly glad I did. I'd love to do something similar on my 8Ba. I'm going to have to dig deeper into this. Nice work.

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by Detroit Flathead

Kilohertz,
I was not expecting to find this cool thread, but I'm certainly glad I did. I'd love to do something similar on my 8Ba. I'm going to have to dig deeper into this. Nice work.

Thanks for the compliment, much appreciated. I have made a lot more progress and will make another update once it's all back together. I decided to strip the injection system off to paint the engine and firewall then start to reassemble it, permanently so I can carry on with the main chassis wiring etc. . The computer harness is all installed and looks great, I have a new alternator to mount and a few coolant sensors and electric fan switch to put in, then the rad,....then I should be able to start it again.

Stay tuned.


Cheers

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nj7755ypdh..._1442.MOV?dl=0



https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qv6...ew?usp=sharing

[Ken Henry]

Looks fantastic! Did you end up trying the classic braid wire wrap? I’m having two a “TBI” holley 94 carb tops printed for my setup. Will post back with photos when they arrive.

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by Ken Henry

Looks fantastic! Did you end up trying the classic braid wire wrap? I’m having two a “TBI” holley 94 carb tops printed for my setup. Will post back with photos when they arrive.

Thanks Ken,

Yes, classic braid...$240, but there's enough to do several vehicles, maybe more. It's best cut with a hot wire as scissors just mangle the ends.

cheers

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

My question was posted for the OP.
Are you speaking for the OP?

I am speaking for the Forum discussion thread. This is a forum. The OP stated he wanted to start a discussion. Everybody joins in to a discussion. You have the option to send a personal message if you don't want others to comment.

[Kilohertz]

Originally Posted by Ken Henry

Awesome! I hope you like it too! I think it looks so much better than the plastic corrugated stuff. I usually cut it and punch holes w a junk soldering iron, since it IS stranded plastic despite looking like cloth

Just re-read the thread and missed this, great idea, I was going to build a hot wire setup but I have a number of Weller guns here and will try those first, maybe mod one to use hot nichrome wire.

cheers

[Ken Henry]

And here we have a Holley 94 carb partially converted to a TBI unit using a custom 3d printed air horn. The material is nylon PA12, resistant to high temperatures and very strong and rigid. It cost about $75 to be done by a commercial printer (Shapeways.com). This setup will allow me to retain the stock choke cable to control the idle speed and take full advantage of the dual plane manifold design. A fuel rail will be mounted above the air horn with two fuel injectors in it sort of like a GM TBI. More pictures to come in the next few days once I get the fuel rail cut and drilled!! Ken


B74D07A6-EFF3-48E0-9606-FAC2E0025CCE by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr


CF8EA0E2-67E9-4BB2-94E9-6F0AF501FB06 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr


02863C07-B01E-46DA-869B-8337226745E0 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

[Kilohertz]

That's brilliant Ken! Nice work!!

What injectors are you planning to use and what fuel pressure? Is it MegaSquirt control?

Looking forward to seeing the next phase.

cheers

[Ken Henry]

Thanks! The fuel injectors are high impedance from a BMW S1000RR motorcycle and supposedly flow 22.8 pounds/hr (240 cc/min) at my fuel pressure of 43.5 psi. I will measure it confirm though, as well as estimate the dead time since that is an important parameter for megasquirt. I'll will continue using my dual carb intake (so 4 injectors total) and distributorless ignition system with the megasquirt controller. Ken

[Algoma56]

Thanks Kilohertz for directing me to this thread. So much ingenuity, and crafty ways of adapting parts to each other.

[ken-r-mer]

Since 2015 I've been running 2 - 1988 Ford Escort 2.0 liter TBI's on my flathead V8 with mega squirt II software. I used 3/8" thick aluminum plate adapters mounted to 2 Stromberg 97 bases on an Offenhauser super dual manifold.

I figured a standard 239 cu inch flathead is 3.92 liters, so 2 TBI's from 1988 2.0 liter 4 cylinder engines would be a good match.

Oh and an OEM TBI will run about $150 on EBAY....well it did in 2019.

[Kilohertz]

ken-r-mer,

That sounds cool, could you post some pics? Would love to see it.

Cheers

[Ken Henry]

I would also love to see pictures. How do you have your Megasquirt set up for squirts per engine cycle? I have a similar setup w two single throttle bodies (1 injector each) on a dual carb intake. I was originally alternating squirts between the TBs with 8 events total per engine cycle (2 revs). It would noticeably miss at low rpm/high load, which I attributed to poor mixture distribution. Changing the setting to 8 squirts simultaneous resolved the issue but the pulse widths have to be quite short… So I have been developing a pair on Holley 94s converted to 2 barrel tbis, which I think will allow me to go back to 8 squirts alternating. Hope to have progress to report soon. Ken

What kind of injectors are used in the escort throttlebody and how many are there per TB?

[Ken Henry]

Here's a little more progress on my Holley 94 conversion to TBI. The injectors are mounted to the fuel rail which sits perched over the carburetor throats. Most of the fuel lines etc. will remain hidden up in the air cleaner. Ken



4FF26C92-B156-4E82-8571-4B3DFEFFC5AB by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr



01F80D81-A31C-49CD-AE05-F3B9AA696446 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

[Kilohertz]

That's pretty cool Ken, nicely built. Can hardly wait to see it running.

Cheers

[Ken Henry]

Here we go, got it running today. Next I need the fabricate the air cleaner base…
https://youtu.be/opD4sg99HKQ

[Zeke3]

Sounds really responsive and smooth, good job Ken.

[Kilohertz]

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That's pretty slick Ken, nice job!

Let us know how she runs and drives.

I really need to get back to mine, haven't touched it in months. The engine is wired and ECM is intalled, next is the main wiring harness.

Cheers

[ken-r-mer]

Currently running 2 - 1988 Ford Escort 2.0 TBI's mounted on an adapter plate on a Stromberg base and Megasquirt II software. The TBI's can be found on Ebay from $32 (used) to $150 (OEM) each, the Megasquirt II (About $500), then there is the supply and return lines to the fuel tank and a higher pressure fuel pump with 10 micron and 100 micron filters fore and aft of the fuel pump. Materials: say about $1,000.

[Model A Joe]

Looks very interesting. One more thing for me to fool with in the shop.

[Ziggster]

Originally Posted by Ken Henry

Here we go, got it running today. Next I need the fabricate the air cleaner base…
https://youtu.be/opD4sg99HKQ

Awesome! I just came across this vid as it just showed up in my suggested vids. Did a search on it here, and it brought me to a bunch of threads including this one. Lol!