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Old 04-21-2017, 10:45 AM   #1
Terry, NJ
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Default IT's Back! (Won't start)

A couple of weeks ago, I pulled my coupe apart to rebuild the transmission, Mission accomplished! And I built a Spring Spreader in the process that worked perfectly! Came time to start it up and take it for a ride and it wouldn't start. It was a no spark situation. Several people helped me with their solutions and suggestions and it finally started, Whoopee ! It ran very nicely and I thought my problems were over, heh, heh, Not so! Yesterday I wanted to start it again, Again, No go! I had just repaired the Speedometer and I found something interesting. The connector(Red wire) that hooks to the key switch broke as soon as I touched the wire. It wasn't bent, but the copper looked "Fatigued". I had installed the switch not too long ago and it was definitely OK then. I replace the bad connector and proceeded with the job. I have never seen a connector break off with minimal
force before and I wondered how many more are ready to go. The car was restored and the restorer went the cheapest route with everything.
While I can't say yet that it's the spark, I'm betting 99% that it is. But so far I've tried a voltmeter on the two sides of the coil- OK, and the arm of the points, again, - OK. I'll let you know later.
Terry
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Old 04-21-2017, 11:01 AM   #2
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

I don't know what was advised in the previous "no start" thread about your car, but if the same problem has returned, my bet is on something electrical, such as a faulty ignition switch. I went through a frustration like this on a customer's car a few years ago. The spark at the ignition cable end was intermittent. Sometimes it would spark and the car ran fine; other times (and for seemingly no reason) the car wouldn't start because there was no spark at the cable tip. 'Turned out to be a bad repo ignition switch that was functional/non-function, depending upon whether the driver's door had been slammed or if I was working behind the instrument panel. A new quality ignition switch cured the problem.
Alternately, if you have an original pop-out switch instead of a re-pop switch, they are notorious for disconnecting themselves. Try by-passing the switch with a repo cable and switch. If the car starts, you have probably found the problem. If not or the problem returns shortly afterwards, at least you can cross a faulty switch off your list of suspects. The effort will not have been wasted.
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Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 04-21-2017 at 05:44 PM. Reason: "shorty"? Ha , ha, ha! Fat typing fingers at work again.
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Old 04-21-2017, 11:13 AM   #3
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

I just remembered someone posting on one of the Model A websites a few years back that his engine would occasionally shut off while he was driving. He checked everything out, but couldn't find anything wrong. After fiddling with the usual suspects, the car would start again and off he went - until the next time the engine died. Then one day, the owner discovered that the fob on the key ring was so heavy that it was pulling the ignition key in the switch to the "off" position just enough to kill the ignition. I don't recall what the fob consisted of, but lots of guys have many keys or some heavy decorative art object that could cause this problem with a weak ignition switch, whose internal tumblers can't hold the key in the "on" position.
Perhaps if that poster is reading this thread, he can fill in the details. In the meantime, maybe "Terry, NJ" can check out this possibility, too, as long as he's looking over his ignition switch.
Marshall
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Old 04-21-2017, 11:58 AM   #4
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

The little black wire in the distributor could cause this.
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:46 PM   #5
Terry, NJ
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

Ok Guys, Thank for the suggestions. I will bypass the switch with a jumper lead. Just for the record, the new switch is a "Nu-rex"listed in Snyders on pg A-155 of their 2017 catalog. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at $51+ a copy. it's a little more than chinese junk. The first time I had starting problems and it was the shorted plate in the distributor, I put a new pigtail in. What really torques me up is that I've bought some new stuff, fixed some old, cleaned and tightened every connection, checked it with either voltmeter or an ohmmeter. I want this problem fixed! It's intermittant and they're the worst to troubleshoot.
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:56 PM   #6
Marshall V. Daut
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Yes, with the "Nu-rex" switch, you should be good to go. They make quality products. Scratch the ignition switch off your list of suspects.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:01 PM   #7
Chuck Sea/Tac
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut View Post
I just remembered someone posting on one of the Model A websites a few years back that his engine would occasionally shut off while he was driving. He checked everything out, but couldn't find anything wrong. After fiddling with the usual suspects, the car would start again and off he went - until the next time the engine died. Then one day, the owner discovered that the fob on the key ring was so heavy that it was pulling the ignition key in the switch to the "off" position just enough to kill the ignition. I don't recall what the fob consisted of, but lots of guys have many keys or some heavy decorative art object that could cause this problem with a weak ignition switch, whose internal tumblers can't hold the key in the "on" position.
Perhaps if that poster is reading this thread, he can fill in the details. In the meantime, maybe "Terry, NJ" can check out this possibility, too, as long as he's looking over his ignition switch.
Marshall
Have you been reading Gus Wilson and the model garage ( popular science 1950's). That was one of the stories.. guess some things never change, just repeat.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:27 PM   #8
Ray in La Mesa
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

I'm enjoying reading the Model Garage stories now and I have had the same key ring turn off happen in my '28 pickup a number of times. i just turn it back on.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:44 PM   #9
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

Miracle of Miracles I took the dash panel off to get at the switch to hook up the jumper, Hooked the jumper! And the GDed thing fired right up! Ran fine! Pulled the jumper off to see what the switch would do with out the jumper and she never missed a beat. Speeded it up a little with the throttle and turned the key off and on, several times to see if there was something loose in the switch_ Perfect! Months ago, I had I glued a piece of rubber inner tube to the gas tank, behind the switch so it's not grounding out on the tank. So how do you figure this out? It does seem to be related to the removal of the dash panel. If it does it again I will work from that basis.
Terry

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Old 04-21-2017, 01:51 PM   #10
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Glad you found it. ? .... Jeff
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:22 PM   #11
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Terry, glad it is running again. I have seen and experienced wires at connectors breaking from over crimping terminals. If what you have is OE or a complete wire harness, that may discount my idea...but thought I would mention it anyway.
Good luck and get the puppy on the road real soon.
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:00 PM   #12
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

Marshall, that was me and my repro switch on my 28 Phaeton. After running a couple weeks with an intermittent mystery miss, I noticed when I turned into my neighbor's driveway that it missed again as the key fob swung to the side. Then when I went to turn the car off I noticed I barely had to touch the key and the engine quit. The fob was only a short piece of leather with a small medallion, so it was very light, but enough to mess with the poor switch contacts.

I took the switch apart and improved the contacts, and it hasn't missed since.

As far as wires breaking at the terminals, when I made the cloth wiring harness for my friend's 29 Stutz I soldered the terminals and slipped a 3/4" long piece of rubber tubing over the terminal and part of the wire. This rubber makes it look original and acts as a strain relief so the wire can't flex at the end of the solder, where it likes to break from vibration.

Terry, start by jumping the two wing nuts on the terminal box on the firewall. This will eliminate the ammeter and wires to it.

Last edited by Tom Wesenberg; 04-21-2017 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

Another thing to check are those loose rivets on the fuse holder. If they are loose, get it out of there and put in an in line fuse.
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

I agree the most common culprit is the ignition switch and pigtail.
And... Make sure the lower plate isn't grounding against the dist body inside the housing. When rebuilding distributors I take a small piece if rubber stock and glue it to the housing so that once the lower plate is installed and no matter how much the distribute ignition lead or cable is screwed in it won't short .

Look for a short at the screw terminal on the upper plate where the pigtail nut is.
Also, I have had upper plates with loose rivets that shorted and caused intermittent problems. Just because its new doesn't mean it's good either .

Larry Shepard
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:51 PM   #15
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

I saw the points spring touching the cam lobes after the rubbing block got worn down a bit. Check it out, as it sets close to the distributor cam.

Here's Marco's picture of how the lower plate wire must be bent so it won't short out, and a picture of my distributor. I like lubrication.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Distributor Marco's picture.jpg (65.8 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg Distributor 2.jpg (51.0 KB, 40 views)
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Old 04-22-2017, 07:56 AM   #16
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You might consider getting a clear distributor top (at least for troubleshooting issues). You can yourself see if you're getting sparks very clearly.. You can also see if there is too much arcing at the points.. which might point to a bad condensor.
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Old 04-22-2017, 08:19 AM   #17
Terry, NJ
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

Jax, That is what blew my mind, It wasn't at the crimp. When the car was restored he put a new harness in. It was between the where the wire ends and the loop or eye that the screw goes into. As I said, it looked fatigued, yet there was nothing done to fatigue it. I have never seen one break there before. Thanx for your thoughts!
Terry



Quote:
Originally Posted by jax55 View Post
Terry, glad it is running again. I have seen and experienced wires at connectors breaking from over crimping terminals. If what you have is OE or a complete wire harness, that may discount my idea...but thought I would mention it anyway.
Good luck and get the puppy on the road real soon.
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Old 04-22-2017, 08:30 AM   #18
Terry, NJ
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

Larry, When I rebuilt the dist. months ago. I made a new pigtail and was extra careful about making sure it wasn't grounding out any where. My problem then was that the insulation on the top plate had broken down and the top was shorting out, I changed the plate and got that one. That was a Bee_Itch to find because I wasn't looking for it. A simple continuity test with the ohmmeter and I knew what the problem was. But who tests plates? But from now on......
Terry



Quote:
Originally Posted by larrys40 View Post
I agree the most common culprit is the ignition switch and pigtail.
And... Make sure the lower plate isn't grounding against the dist body inside the housing. When rebuilding distributors I take a small piece if rubber stock and glue it to the housing so that once the lower plate is installed and no matter how much the distribute ignition lead or cable is screwed in it won't short .

Look for a short at the screw terminal on the upper plate where the pigtail nut is.
Also, I have had upper plates with loose rivets that shorted and caused intermittent problems. Just because its new doesn't mean it's good either .

Larry Shepard
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Old 04-22-2017, 08:48 AM   #19
Terry, NJ
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Default Re: IT's Back! (Won't start)

Very few things can be "Overlubricated" especially a Mod A distributor. Another point I been pondering is what can be put on the bottom of the dist. body to make it come out nice and easy. I've been putting "Neverseize" on mine, but I wonder if good ole "White Lead" would work, or the regular "Pipe Dope" would do the trick without adding a contaminate to the engine's inrternals.
Terry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg View Post
I saw the points spring touching the cam lobes after the rubbing block got worn down a bit. Check it out, as it sets close to the distributor cam.

Here's Marco's picture of how the lower plate wire must be bent so it won't short out, and a picture of my distributor. I like lubrication.
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Old 04-22-2017, 08:53 AM   #20
Terry, NJ
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I have considered it in the past, And not only would it look cool, It would be a troubleshooting tool. Now where do I get them?
Terry



Quote:
Originally Posted by mshmodela View Post
You might consider getting a clear distributor top (at least for troubleshooting issues). You can yourself see if you're getting sparks very clearly.. You can also see if there is too much arcing at the points.. which might point to a bad condensor.
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