12-04-2016, 06:01 PM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Gardiner Me.
Posts: 4,200
|
59a - or 59ab
Is there any way to tell if a 59A on the heads and block is 3-1/16 or 3-3/16? Just stare at it I guess. Walt
|
12-04-2016, 06:58 PM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: clear lake, iowa
Posts: 157
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
pencil test?
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
12-04-2016, 07:56 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oshkosh, Wi
Posts: 4,527
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
Only way is to remove the head and measure the bore.
|
12-04-2016, 08:03 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 1,499
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
I never trust what the heads say, most have been swapped around over the years. The only sure thing is that you'll know what the heads are. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know Walt
|
12-04-2016, 09:36 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Gardiner Me.
Posts: 4,200
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
|
12-04-2016, 11:10 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,440
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
|
12-04-2016, 11:13 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Orcas Island Washington
Posts: 4,942
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
I have a block on my stand that's '59' and 221 cu in, 3 1/16. Heads are still off. I could get good pics if I knew what to shoot or measure.
__________________
Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1947 Tonner Pickup (red) mostly stock with exception of a cummins 6at turbo diesel, 1946 Tonner Pickup (green) with 226 cu in 6 cyl flathead, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, completely encased in 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. Ok, cornbinder rear fenders..... 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
12-05-2016, 08:36 AM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Gardiner Me.
Posts: 4,200
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
This engine I just started on 59 on the bell and 59AB on the heads, a rebuild tag on the back built by shop in Boston Mass. I'm sure it's oversize, I have got about half doz of those tags kicking around the back of my bench, the heads stuck pretty hard,been socking, trying to get them off today, let you know, Walt
|
12-05-2016, 08:44 AM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,593
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
Walt,
The small bore 59's pass the pencil test, not seen one that didn't pass. Martin. |
12-05-2016, 01:54 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Gardiner Me.
Posts: 4,200
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
Well guys I got the stuck heads off this 59 block, 3-3/16 + .030 it won't hold a pencil, so it's just a 59AB block with 59A heads, 46-47-48 crab dis. So I'll check pencil from now on, never know if anyone has changed heads. So if it holds the pencil test chances are it's a 3-1/16 or something, What if it was bored 3-3/16 and cain't tell? Then you go and bore another 1/8, dose anyone know if the walls are the same thickness? chances are there all the same block and the factory bored some 3-1/16 cause they had alot pistons left over. Walt
|
12-05-2016, 02:24 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,440
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
I'd sure like to see one of the 41A blocks so I could be sure for my own information but some folks say they are very much like the prewar 221 blocks and have thin cylinder walls like they were using the prewar cores in the post war core box. I hope someone comes up with one to photograph for the block ID thread some day. It would be nice to know what all the true characteristics are.
|
12-05-2016, 04:00 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Orcas Island Washington
Posts: 4,942
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
OK, so what's the pencil test?
__________________
Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1947 Tonner Pickup (red) mostly stock with exception of a cummins 6at turbo diesel, 1946 Tonner Pickup (green) with 226 cu in 6 cyl flathead, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, completely encased in 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. Ok, cornbinder rear fenders..... 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
12-05-2016, 04:28 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Gerrardstown, WV
Posts: 2,266
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
Its my understanding that if a pencil will lay on the block just above the timing cover that its a '40 221 block. I have one in my stack.
|
12-05-2016, 06:07 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,440
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
That's what it is. The post war engines had a different design on the front of the block so there is no pronounced flange there for the timing cover. The timing cover itself it all that protrudes there. Prewar engines had a bit of flange protrusion making for a pretty good step in that location.
|
12-05-2016, 08:38 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Gardiner Me.
Posts: 4,200
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
An other difference, I built a 59 engine a couple years ago for a 35 pickup, it had a rear oil slinger rather than a rope seal. I used an 8BA crank and rods with the 59 aluminum seal. Never so that before. Walt
|
12-05-2016, 09:24 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,166
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
My 59AB had a oil slinger too. Found that out when I pulled it out of the pickup and it poured oil out the back end. At the time it seemed it would be easier to drain the oil with the engine on the lift, who knew. We just figured it had a previous Frankenstein type rebuild because of all the miss matched parts we found.
|
12-05-2016, 10:01 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Orcas Island Washington
Posts: 4,942
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
Just went down to the shop and looked at the timing cover area. There is no way a pencil could sit there if the timing cover wasn't on. It just slopes down to nothing. The bell housing has a '59' cast on top. Don't recall what the cyl heads were, but it's 3 1/16 for sure... .060 over. Has a tag from rebuilder ford authorized which reflects the specs of the engine. Not sure if that helps.....
__________________
Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1947 Tonner Pickup (red) mostly stock with exception of a cummins 6at turbo diesel, 1946 Tonner Pickup (green) with 226 cu in 6 cyl flathead, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, completely encased in 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. Ok, cornbinder rear fenders..... 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson) |
12-06-2016, 08:19 AM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,070
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
I've not seen any blocks with just 59 on the bell housing that passed the pencil test - only the early blocks (pre-war). I'm not saying they don't exist - just never seen one.
Usually when a see a block with just the 59 on the bell, my hunch is that it will be a 3 1/16 bore block (replacement) - just the way I've seen most of them over the years. |
12-06-2016, 08:33 AM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,593
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
Gonna have to check the 59 block I have stashed, my reply about the pencil test was from memory, so could be bolox. It is a mish mash of pre and post war casting box's.
I'll check and report back. Martin. |
12-06-2016, 09:00 AM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,835
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
The pencil test is to exclude the 59 block not to confirm it.The pencil test works on the first generation 24 stud blocks,late '38,39 and 40 41.
__________________
"Never complain,never explain"... Henry Ford II |
12-06-2016, 09:22 AM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Upper Peninsula, Michigan
Posts: 604
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
How many generations are there for 24 stud block?
|
12-06-2016, 09:52 AM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,835
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
I would say four and this is based on a Jay Temple article in the Jan/Feb 1992 V8 Times. The late '38-40 with the 4 freeze plugs/sand cast plug holes in oil pan rail. 3 1/16 inch bore for Ford 3 3/16 for MercuryNext the 41/42 no freeze plugs and has raised deck where intake bolts.The 46-1948 59 block and then the 49-53 blocks. So that is where I come up with the 4 basics.
__________________
"Never complain,never explain"... Henry Ford II |
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
12-06-2016, 10:43 AM | #23 |
Member Emeritus
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Madison, NJ
Posts: 5,230
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
There is one more, an oddity that has gotten scarce. The first 24 stud used in 1938 had the 81A-A block, quite different from the 81A-B block used in '39 and beyond. This one used the short 68 crank, same as used in '36 LB and 37-8 21 studs, and of course had main saddles to match the 68 type mains. The long crank -B block went into production in very late 1938, and the book (V8 club restoration manual) says that it is unlikely that any went into 1938 cars. To repeat, this is the production '38 24 stud, not the 21 stud also used in '38 and distinct from the '39 24 stud.
|
12-06-2016, 02:46 PM | #24 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: clear lake, iowa
Posts: 157
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
Quote:
|
|
12-12-2016, 10:35 AM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,593
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
Right guys,
I said I'd look at the 59 (only, no letter) block in my stash. Its a 3 1/16 bore (221 ci) engine. Has large 59 cast on the bell. It does indeed pass the pencil test, glad my memory worked this time. The deck face, it has one triangle top water hole and the two round lower holes, as per a regular 59A, the valve to bore measures like a 59A up, so approx 1.25" further away than the pre war stuff. The cylinder walls, I don't have a 59A or later block to compare, but much thinner walls than my 99A's. Probably about same as the 221 pre tin can stuff. Don't think it'd comfortably go much over 3 3/16. So the front of my 59 block is same as pre war stuff, the valve angle and deck face is post war, the cylinder wall thickness looks to be pre war. Pan rail is post war. Has a slinger type crank rather than rope seal. Like I said it was a mix of stuff. From this thread it proves even with this limited number produced small bore 59 engines, there's more than one casting style! Martin. |
12-12-2016, 02:17 PM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,440
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
|
12-12-2016, 02:50 PM | #27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Tinley Park Ill
Posts: 1,062
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
As far as getting heads off I had a friend who made some Heavy Duty hooks that screwed into the spark plug holes. I used two and used a heavy slide hammer (2 lb} on the heads . They came off after a while. Works A Lot better than any other method that i used before. And only had to Curse half as much.
|
12-12-2016, 03:03 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,593
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
The one I have here was from the "matt green" fellows. As in war issue stuff, not sure what it was fitted in, but the flywheel wasn't drilled for a clutch, just had three 3/4" ish holes not far from center.
Martin. |
12-12-2016, 05:39 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,755
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
Mart, I've seen flywheels like that. One keeps coming up on ebay. I wonder if they are marine?? Something like that? Or welder, generator, etc. Some non automotive application.
Mart. |
12-12-2016, 06:19 PM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lyman,ME.
Posts: 2,630
|
Re: 59a - or 59ab
I have one as a stationary engine that I was told powered a water pump. This has a coupler is in the center bolted to the crankshaft but is drilled for a clutch.... Mark
__________________
I'm thinkin' about crankin' My ragged ol' truck up and haulin' myself into town. Billy Joe Shaver |
|
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|