Drive Shaft Angel

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Has anyone got a pic of the drive shaft angel for the trans to the rear pinon? I've see pic but cain't seem to find one now. A friend is building an A roadster for the Gentelman sand race and ask me about the angel. Cain't explane it to him. Thanks Walt

[JSeery]

Are you referring to a general diagram on setting the driveshaft angles or a specific application Walt?

[Jason in TX]

Just an FYI - If he is doing an open drive line with modern T5 transmission, he's not building the right type of car and it's not going to pass tech. He needs to be using the old stuff with the torque tube and the 30s transmission. (unless he's running the truck open drive style rear and the truck banjo rear for some strange reason.)

He should just keep the A rear and bolt the flathead and the 39 style trans up to that.

[V8COOPMAN]

If you're talking about an OPEN DRIVE (no torque tube), you normally try to set-up with the trans mainshaft and the pinion shaft operating parallel with each other.

And of course, with a torque tube, there is NO rear u-joint, and no need to worry about such. DD

[JSeery]

There are different ways to set up driveshaft angles for specific purposes, but the general excepted method is transmission centerline parallel to the pinion centerline and the angels somewhere between 1 and 3 degrees.

[ursus]

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I understand that Ford designed the Model A to have a continuous 3 degree angle extending straight through the crankshaft all the way to the pinion.

[Jason in TX]

Outstanding video of the importance of maintaining parallel transmission output and pinion input when using universal joints. Phasing is also key or there will be driveline vibration.

MUST WATCH! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmV4qwLfOMY

[JSeery]

I always liked this demo video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDmz0tibVGM

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Thanks guys, my friend is useing an A roadster body with 32 rails, 53 flat head, 42-46 3 speed pickup trans with the open drive, and Model A rear with an adapter on the rear for open drive. Does that pass the racing law? Walt

[JWL]

Buggy spring or parallel leaf springs? What kind of attachment for axle housing torque control?

I ask because plain parallel springs, with no linkage to the frame, need the pinion down a few degrees from the transmission output shaft angle.

[Jason in TX]

That passes the parts list Walt!

[skidmarks]

Originally Posted by Walt Dupont--Me.

Thanks guys, my friend is useing an A roadster body with 32 rails, 53 flat head, 42-46 3 speed pickup trans with the open drive, and Model A rear with an adapter on the rear for open drive. Does that pass the racing law? Walt

What is the reason for using a model A rear axle? In a 32 frame a 35 to a 41 would be a better choice.

[zzlegend]

Walt. I don't know if this will help. Kind of hard to see the angle in the pictures. I used a 50 ford pickup trans and 41 pickup rear end on my 27 roadster on 32 frame. If I recall, it came out to about 2-3 degrees. What is he using for wishbones or torque arm?

[zzlegend]

Two more.

[JSeery]

Nice torque arm(s) setup.

[Jason in TX]

Yes. Nice Torque arm.

I'm just curious as to why run open drive and fabricate Torque arms? Why not just run closed drive and cut a torque tube to the length you need? If you are going for the old look of the banjo rear, the torque arm and ladder bars give that away. Just honestly curious. I like the set up. Just seems like a little more work.

[zzlegend]

1st................My choice
2nd...............I had a 50 open drive trans that I rebuilt.
3rd................I had a 41 truck open drive rear end that was rebuilt.
4th................Those are split bones, not ladder bars, which are completely different.
5th................I like old school split bones if done right, but they have to pivot at both ends.
6th................I have another 27 on an A frame which might get a 38 flathead and 39 trans, and that one will have a torque tube and stock radius rods.

[39topless]

Originally Posted by zzlegend

1st................My choice
2nd...............I had a 50 open drive trans that I rebuilt.
3rd................I had a 41 truck open drive rear end that was rebuilt.
4th................Those are split bones, not ladder bars, which are completely different.
5th................I like old school split bones if done right, but they have to pivot at both ends.
6th................I have another 27 on an A frame which might get a 38 flathead and 39 trans, and that one will have a torque tube and stock radius rods.

GORGEOUS!! I like that look much better than the, outlived it's coolness, rusty "patina" look.

[zzlegend]

Thanks 39. Not a show car by any means, but just my driver.

[flatford8]

I like the way you did that. Much easier to work on everything (trans, u-joints, clutch) but keeps the stock spring. Nice!!...... Mark

[38bill]

ZZ any chance we could see a close up of the front and rear end of your torque tube? I'm running torque rods but I like the look of your set up much better. Thanks.

[zzlegend]

Thanks for the kind words flatford. Yes, easier for some maintenance.

[zzlegend]

38bill, Here is a couple of pictures. In the front, I used a large Heim in stead of a tie rod end. Guess either would work. I used a 46-48 front wishbone cut in half for the rear radius rods and torque arm just so they would match. Plus those are about the strongest ones made. Probably overkill on the rear bracket but hey, Safe than sorry I guess.

[roundvalley]

Rules at raceofgentleman.com.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Nice pic guys. I know my friend is useing the Model A buggy spring and A rear end with an adapter to use open drive shaft, I know he making torshon bars somehow but I haven't seen it, he lives 85 miles from me. Walt

[40 Deluxe]

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[QUOTE=Jason in TX;1347207]Outstanding video of the importance of maintaining parallel transmission output and pinion input when using universal joints. Phasing is also key or there will be driveline vibration.


seems for every rule there is an exception: I was helping assemble a '68 Camaro my son-in-law bought in pieces when I noticed the driveshaft yokes were several degrees out of phase. I explained the importance of proper phasing and had him get another driveshaft. It was the same way! He took it to an old time driveshaft shop and they told him there was nothing wrong with it; that's how those Camaros came from the factory. I was working in a Chevy dealer's shop in '67 when Camaro's came out but never noticed this through the years.

[blucar]

FYI
The object of having a negative angle to the drive line is to allow for torque in the drive line. When power is applied the torque will result in the drive line being in a near straight line, and/or a minimal angle, that will allow the u-joints to work properly.
If the drive line is installed in a straight line, when power/torque is applied the drive line will torque up causing stress on the u-joints.
From my experience, I have found that the subject of drive-line angle is one of the most misunderstood subjects that keep cropping up.

[JSeery]

[QUOTE=40 Deluxe;1348098]

Originally Posted by Jason in TX

Outstanding video of the importance of maintaining parallel transmission output and pinion input when using universal joints. Phasing is also key or there will be driveline vibration.


seems for every rule there is an exception: I was helping assemble a '68 Camaro my son-in-law bought in pieces when I noticed the driveshaft yokes were several degrees out of phase. I explained the importance of proper phasing and had him get another driveshaft. It was the same way! He took it to an old time driveshaft shop and they told him there was nothing wrong with it; that's how those Camaros came from the factory. I was working in a Chevy dealer's shop in '67 when Camaro's came out but never noticed this through the years.

There are two different levels of technology going on here! One is the Hot Rod level of technology that is based on fairly simple straight forward guidelines. The other is highly technical design engineering. These components work as part of a complete system with multiple interactions going on. Just because a design team of experienced engineers with test facilities can do something does not mean it will work in your garage. IMHO unless you really understand what all is going on it is best to stick to the basics.

[V8COOPMAN]

[QUOTE=40 Deluxe;1348098]

Originally Posted by Jason in TX

Outstanding video of the importance of maintaining parallel transmission output and pinion input when using universal joints. Phasing is also key or there will be driveline vibration.


seems for every rule there is an exception: I was helping assemble a '68 Camaro my son-in-law bought in pieces when I noticed the driveshaft yokes were several degrees out of phase. I explained the importance of proper phasing and had him get another driveshaft. It was the same way! He took it to an old time driveshaft shop and they told him there was nothing wrong with it; that's how those Camaros came from the factory. I was working in a Chevy dealer's shop in '67 when Camaro's came out but never noticed this through the years.

Don't forget that those Camaros used that stupid MONO-leaf spring that would easily allow the pinion angle to change as housing torque wrapped that leaf upward in the front. Another reason they hopped so badly. DD

[pooch]

[QUOTE=40 Deluxe;1348098]

Originally Posted by Jason in TX

Outstanding video of the importance of maintaining parallel transmission output and pinion input when using universal joints. Phasing is also key or there will be driveline vibration.


seems for every rule there is an exception: I was helping assemble a '68 Camaro my son-in-law bought in pieces when I noticed the driveshaft yokes were several degrees out of phase. I explained the importance of proper phasing and had him get another driveshaft. It was the same way! He took it to an old time driveshaft shop and they told him there was nothing wrong with it; that's how those Camaros came from the factory. I was working in a Chevy dealer's shop in '67 when Camaro's came out but never noticed this through the years.

For Oz interest, the tailshaft/driveshaft of an IRS commodore has its yokes not in line .

I guess it has to do with the diff centre being fixed and not changing angularly to the gearbox .

There must be an engineering reason it is better or they would not do it.