The Ford Barn

kenparker · 01-27-2016, 03:57 PM

Ordered a set of new Valve Tappets. Single Nut locking type. Began installing Tappets and Valves this morning. Problem is the Nut will not screw into the Tappet far enough to get clearance on the valves. There are still 4 - 6 threads showing on the Screw In Nut and Nut is to tight to go any further. At this point ther is 0 clearance on the valve and valve is not down in its seat all the way. It is though the Tappet is .060 to .080 to long or the valves are too long.

Have any of you engine builders run across this before? Any ideas? I have contacted the vendor and he is researching the problem also. I do not want to name the vendor until problem is solved - way or the other - not fair to them at this point.

more info: Valves measure 5.730 to 5.735 in length - mushroom foot valves.

Marshall V. Daut · 01-27-2016, 04:17 PM

Yes, I have encountered this problem on engines whose valves have been ground so many times that the heads are almost flush with the deck of the block. That translates to the valve stems now being "too long". The valve heads normally sit above the block. Are yours sunken to the point of almost being on the same plane as the top of the engine block? If so, that is why the new tappet bolts seem to tall. The real solution is to have new valve seats installed in your block, which will pull the valves back up where they belong.
However, since that is an expensive and time-consuming job, your next best bet is what I have done in such cases. Take the new lifters to a machine shop or use your own equipment if you have it and have the appropriate amount of "meat" removed from the bolt head, (not from the bottom of the tappet!) so that you have some wiggle room for adjustment. That gap varies in people's recommendations depending upon the camshaft and personal taste. At least 0.012" seems to be safe and will not result in a noisy engine or burned exhaust valves. If you have a Model "B" camshaft, the gaps are wider.
You can also have a little metal removed from the mushroom valve stems in conjunction with taking meat off the lifter adjusting bolt. Then you spread your losses and don't weaken one more than the other.
Marshall

Pete · 01-27-2016, 04:33 PM

I would take the material off the valve rather than the lifter to avoid going through any heat treat on the end of the screw.

Dave in MN · 01-27-2016, 04:46 PM

Pretty much a repeat of the previous posts: I have had the same problem and the solution I use is to take the required amount off the base of the valve. I have a valve grinder that makes quick and accurate work of it. I often see this problem when the valves are deep in the head like Marshall describes. I also have seen it a few times when a new camshaft is used in combination with a block that has been decked.
Good Day!

jetmek · 01-27-2016, 04:47 PM

yup and its not because seats are sunk in. Try running the adjuster in as far as you can before installing in the engine you really hafta reef on it then back it off. it will free up the interference fit enough to allow adjusting in the block and not bugger up the adjuster bolt head. its a bad batch of tappets now on the market.

Dave in MN · 01-27-2016, 05:17 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jetmek

yup and its not because seats are sunk in. Try running the adjuster in as far as you can before installing in the engine you really hafta reef on it then back it off. it will free up the interference fit enough to allow adjusting in the block and not bugger up the adjuster bolt head. its a bad batch of tappets now on the market.

Be careful with forcing them down and then backing them up. I did so and the adjusters (split bolt) became too loose to use. Happened twice, so I know it was more than a fluke the first time. We don't know how much the original poster turned them in to get where he is now at. JMO:
That's why I now grind the stems to shorten the valves.
I have taken over .050" from the stem many times without issue.
Good Day!

John Stone · 01-27-2016, 06:33 PM

I'll bet the tappets came from Bratton's. I ruined my tappet wrench on a set of those and even rounded off 3 before I gave up. I buy Colony from Snyder's.

Mikeinnj · 01-27-2016, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Stone

I'll bet the tappets came from Bratton's. I ruined my tappet wrench on a set of those and even rounded off 3 before I gave up. I buy Colony from Snyder's.

You might have had a bad fitting wrench.

I have been using Bratton's tappet's for 27 years and have never had a problem.

Walt stands behind his products 100%. Best on the market.

Did you let him know about the problem or did you just guess that the tappet was the problem?

PAracer · 01-27-2016, 07:46 PM

I am having this same problem with a new set of tappets from Bratton's. To get the correct clearances I've had to tighten them down and then some. I've had to remove the valve spring and move the valves out of the way to use a standard wrench to make the adjustment as they are so tight it ruined the thin wrench I had. Since I'm able to get the clearances right I went ahead and used hem but I'm wondering what I'm going to do if I have to adjust them once the head is installed and the engine is in the car? I don't think I'll order tappets from Bratton's again.

tbirdtbird · 01-27-2016, 07:57 PM

It has been 85 yrs. The blocks have been decked several times. The seats recut several times. The stock height just is not there. Why blame the lifters. Just kiss the end of the valves

kenparker · 01-27-2016, 07:58 PM

Wednesday night update. And to answere some of the above questions and comments.

The valves are new and the four exhaust seats have new seats in them, so the valves sit up "above" the block as they are supposed to.

Mikeinnj - The wrenches are a good fitting wrench - that was not the problem. And , yes, I did let the vendor know. He is researching the problem and will call me back in the morning.

John - The parts did not come from Brattons.

Dave. I did force one of them and when tried to back it up it went loosey goosey. That one is now history. To grind the foot off the valve would require over .050 ground off foot. Not a good option.

On discussing with a friend engine builder I found he has also run into the same problem in the last year with lifters from a different vendor. Cheap Chinese parts. The threads in either the stud or the female inside the lifter are poorly made.

New measurement. With the head screwed in until it will not turn anymore, ther is .235 to .265 space between the bottom of the hex head and the top of the round lifter- either 4 or 5 threads are exposed.

final decision sometime tomorrow. kp

Paul from Maine · 01-27-2016, 08:32 PM

I set valve stem to lifter clearance in my Model T by grinding off a little bit of the stem with my bench grinder. I made a little jig to lay the valve in and to keep it perpendicular to the side of the grinding wheel! Seemed to work fine.

Tom Wesenberg · 01-27-2016, 09:38 PM

How about grinding away a couple threads on the bolt, so it can screw down more.

larrys40 · 01-28-2016, 09:00 AM

Tom I thought about that too but not knowing the makeup of the locking factor of the lifter.
He should be using the new 1 piece guide and valve kit. I use to use the Chevy valve and cut the stems off anyway and reface the stem so it really isn't that big a deal.
Put them in he lathe and cut the valve and use a cutoff wheel grinder to cut off. Then reface the stem. It's only 8 valves... You will be done in 1/2 hour
Besides, with the lifter down you won't have so much trouble adjusting when the lifter is low with the lifter bosses close .

Cut the valve and reface ... It's not a big deal
Larry

John Stone · 01-28-2016, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeinnj

You might have had a bad fitting wrench.

I have been using Bratton's tappet's for 27 years and have never had a problem.

Walt stands behind his products 100%. Best on the market.

Did you let him know about the problem or did you just guess that the tappet was the problem?

Wrench was not "bad fitting". Later I ran a couple down to the standard lifter height on the bench and then checked the breakout force. It took over 40 ft-lbs to move the bolt. Those thin lifter wrenches are usually not made for such torque. They were returned and money refunded.

SteveB31 · 01-28-2016, 09:05 PM

Their are 3 brands of single nut adjustable lifters on the market now. Two of them are very bad. The good ones are made by Colony, and work fine if the seats are right. Only buy the good ones.

Steve Becker
Bert's Model A Center

redmodelt · 01-29-2016, 07:19 PM

To set up the valve gap when installing new parts when ether adjustable or stock type lifters are installed, you need to grind the end of the valve stem. That's how it'd done. Model T or A, it's done the same.

01-27-2016, 03:57 PM	#1
kenparker Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Van, Texas Posts: 1,122	Valve Tappet problem Ordered a set of new Valve Tappets. Single Nut locking type. Began installing Tappets and Valves this morning. Problem is the Nut will not screw into the Tappet far enough to get clearance on the valves. There are still 4 - 6 threads showing on the Screw In Nut and Nut is to tight to go any further. At this point ther is 0 clearance on the valve and valve is not down in its seat all the way. It is though the Tappet is .060 to .080 to long or the valves are too long. Have any of you engine builders run across this before? Any ideas? I have contacted the vendor and he is researching the problem also. I do not want to name the vendor until problem is solved - way or the other - not fair to them at this point. more info: Valves measure 5.730 to 5.735 in length - mushroom foot valves.

01-27-2016, 04:17 PM	#2
Marshall V. Daut Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Davenport, Iowa Posts: 2,109	Re: Valve Tappet problem Yes, I have encountered this problem on engines whose valves have been ground so many times that the heads are almost flush with the deck of the block. That translates to the valve stems now being "too long". The valve heads normally sit above the block. Are yours sunken to the point of almost being on the same plane as the top of the engine block? If so, that is why the new tappet bolts seem to tall. The real solution is to have new valve seats installed in your block, which will pull the valves back up where they belong. However, since that is an expensive and time-consuming job, your next best bet is what I have done in such cases. Take the new lifters to a machine shop or use your own equipment if you have it and have the appropriate amount of "meat" removed from the bolt head, (not from the bottom of the tappet!) so that you have some wiggle room for adjustment. That gap varies in people's recommendations depending upon the camshaft and personal taste. At least 0.012" seems to be safe and will not result in a noisy engine or burned exhaust valves. If you have a Model "B" camshaft, the gaps are wider. You can also have a little metal removed from the mushroom valve stems in conjunction with taking meat off the lifter adjusting bolt. Then you spread your losses and don't weaken one more than the other. Marshall

01-27-2016, 04:33 PM	#3
Pete Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,407	Re: Valve Tappet problem I would take the material off the valve rather than the lifter to avoid going through any heat treat on the end of the screw.

01-27-2016, 04:46 PM	#4
Dave in MN Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jordan, MN Posts: 1,411	Re: Valve Tappet problem Pretty much a repeat of the previous posts: I have had the same problem and the solution I use is to take the required amount off the base of the valve. I have a valve grinder that makes quick and accurate work of it. I often see this problem when the valves are deep in the head like Marshall describes. I also have seen it a few times when a new camshaft is used in combination with a block that has been decked. Good Day!

01-27-2016, 04:47 PM	#5
jetmek Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: albany Posts: 465	Re: Valve Tappet problem yup and its not because seats are sunk in. Try running the adjuster in as far as you can before installing in the engine you really hafta reef on it then back it off. it will free up the interference fit enough to allow adjusting in the block and not bugger up the adjuster bolt head. its a bad batch of tappets now on the market. __________________ engine and component overhauls my specialty! Website- www.godevilgarage.com

01-27-2016, 06:33 PM	#7
John Stone Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wichita, Kansas Posts: 710	Re: Valve Tappet problem I'll bet the tappets came from Bratton's. I ruined my tappet wrench on a set of those and even rounded off 3 before I gave up. I buy Colony from Snyder's.

01-27-2016, 07:46 PM	#9
PAracer Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 45	Re: Valve Tappet problem I am having this same problem with a new set of tappets from Bratton's. To get the correct clearances I've had to tighten them down and then some. I've had to remove the valve spring and move the valves out of the way to use a standard wrench to make the adjustment as they are so tight it ruined the thin wrench I had. Since I'm able to get the clearances right I went ahead and used hem but I'm wondering what I'm going to do if I have to adjust them once the head is installed and the engine is in the car? I don't think I'll order tappets from Bratton's again.

01-27-2016, 07:57 PM	#10
tbirdtbird BANNED Join Date: May 2012 Location: inside your RAM Posts: 3,134	Re: Valve Tappet problem It has been 85 yrs. The blocks have been decked several times. The seats recut several times. The stock height just is not there. Why blame the lifters. Just kiss the end of the valves __________________ '31 180A

01-27-2016, 07:58 PM	#11
kenparker Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Van, Texas Posts: 1,122	Re: Valve Tappet problem Wednesday night update. And to answere some of the above questions and comments. The valves are new and the four exhaust seats have new seats in them, so the valves sit up "above" the block as they are supposed to. Mikeinnj - The wrenches are a good fitting wrench - that was not the problem. And , yes, I did let the vendor know. He is researching the problem and will call me back in the morning. John - The parts did not come from Brattons. Dave. I did force one of them and when tried to back it up it went loosey goosey. That one is now history. To grind the foot off the valve would require over .050 ground off foot. Not a good option. On discussing with a friend engine builder I found he has also run into the same problem in the last year with lifters from a different vendor. Cheap Chinese parts. The threads in either the stud or the female inside the lifter are poorly made. New measurement. With the head screwed in until it will not turn anymore, ther is .235 to .265 space between the bottom of the hex head and the top of the round lifter- either 4 or 5 threads are exposed. final decision sometime tomorrow. kp

01-27-2016, 08:32 PM	#12
Paul from Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oxford Hills, Maine Posts: 325	Re: Valve Tappet problem I set valve stem to lifter clearance in my Model T by grinding off a little bit of the stem with my bench grinder. I made a little jig to lay the valve in and to keep it perpendicular to the side of the grinding wheel! Seemed to work fine.

01-27-2016, 09:38 PM	#13
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Valve Tappet problem How about grinding away a couple threads on the bolt, so it can screw down more.

01-28-2016, 09:00 AM	#14
larrys40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: St Charles , Missouri Posts: 1,998	Re: Valve Tappet problem Tom I thought about that too but not knowing the makeup of the locking factor of the lifter. He should be using the new 1 piece guide and valve kit. I use to use the Chevy valve and cut the stems off anyway and reface the stem so it really isn't that big a deal. Put them in he lathe and cut the valve and use a cutoff wheel grinder to cut off. Then reface the stem. It's only 8 valves... You will be done in 1/2 hour Besides, with the lifter down you won't have so much trouble adjusting when the lifter is low with the lifter bosses close . Cut the valve and reface ... It's not a big deal Larry

01-28-2016, 09:05 PM	#16
SteveB31 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Englewood, Colorado Posts: 1,372	Re: Valve Tappet problem Their are 3 brands of single nut adjustable lifters on the market now. Two of them are very bad. The good ones are made by Colony, and work fine if the seats are right. Only buy the good ones. Steve Becker Bert's Model A Center

01-29-2016, 07:19 PM	#17
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,340	Re: Valve Tappet problem To set up the valve gap when installing new parts when ether adjustable or stock type lifters are installed, you need to grind the end of the valve stem. That's how it'd done. Model T or A, it's done the same.