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Old 04-21-2017, 05:22 PM   #1
MartyAndrew
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Default Plate Glass or Not?

Hi all. I just bought a '28 Briggs Fordor Leatherback. It was restored 30 years ago by the person who owned it before the person I bought it from. My question is, how can I tell if the side glass is plate glass, or if it's been upgraded with tempered glass? The top of the windows are painted black. The paint is missing in some spots. The glass is really clean with only one minor scratch from something rubbing while rolling up or down. It seems like 89 year old glass would be worse...
One "smart" guy from my club said he knows how to tell. But then I'd have to replace it. haha.

Any advice? Thx.

Marty
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Old 04-21-2017, 05:32 PM   #2
Joe K
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

Be careful of your terminology.

Tempered glass is single sheet glass which has been "stress relieved" after the manufacturing process to make the glass more resistant to impact - and if broken tends to fall in single large pieces.

Safety Glass (laminated glass) is the triple layer glass used in all modern automobiles and is the glass Ford adopted for the front windshield after a near fatal accident involving one of his design engineers.

Original safety glass has the edge "bonded" in some sort of black. Modern safety glass will show the three distinct layers on a ground edge.

MOre discussion of how to tell the difference (and the engineer story) at http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1253281613

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Old 04-21-2017, 05:49 PM   #3
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

If you have plate glass and not safety glass I would change it before you do too much driving. Plate glass is very dangerous in an accident.
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Old 04-21-2017, 05:54 PM   #4
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

I found this article on glass
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:07 PM   #5
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

Here is the 'correct' info on tempered glass vs laminated glass... from the Ford Garage. Thanks once again Vince.

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/craiglewisglass.htm

Most "local" glass shops will sell you laminated glass because they can not cut tempered glass. They have to special order it to size.

Laminated glass should not be used in your side glass. Check with Bert's, they sell tempered side glass for your Fordor. I just replaced the drivers window in my Town Sedan because it was cracked. And yes, the one I replaced was laminated.

Last edited by Y-Blockhead; 04-21-2017 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?-YOUR WINDSHIELD MAY be PLATE GLASS !!!

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Fifty five years ago I read the story about safety glass in the windshield so I thought I was safe and only replaced the side and rear windows with laminated safety glass.

As I remember the glass company referred to it as "safety plate".

The edges are clear glass and you can see the two glass pieces and the plastic sheet in the middle.


Note all the other windows were plate glass

I was told in 1976 that Ford put safety glass ONLY in the windshield which agrees with what I found in 1962.

In 1966 I hit the rear of a 56 Plymouth at 45 MPH. The seat belt that I installed in 1962 kept me from hitting the windshield which was really a good thing considering what I found in 1976.

In 1976 the windshield glass started to rattle inside the frame. When I removed the glass windshield I found that it also was plate glass.

Many dangerous things happened to save money in hard times.

So do not assume that because Ford put safety glass in the windshields that yours is in fact safety glass!

Last edited by Benson; 04-21-2017 at 11:31 PM. Reason: correction: install ed
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead View Post
Here is the 'correct' info on tempered glass vs laminated glass... from the Ford Garage. Thanks once again Vince.

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/craiglewisglass.htm

Most "local" glass shops will sell you laminated glass because they can not cut tempered glass. They have to special order it to size.

Laminated glass should not be used in your side glass. Check with Bert's, they sell tempered side glass for your Fordor. I just replaced the drivers window in my Town Sedan because it was cracked. And yes, the one I replaced was laminated.

Vince's page recommendations are worth repeating.

I am now going to check that as yet uninstalled pickup truck replacement door glass and see what those dudes down at the glass shop sold me now, um 20 years ago.

Joe K

Quote:

Model A & B


Safety Glass and Tempered Glass Considerations

Craig Lewis, from Parksville, British Colombia, recently posted on Ford Barn some very good information and considerations about the topic of safety glass versus tempered glass, and the relative merits of each. Thanks to Craig for allowing his comments to be presented here on Ford Garage also.
In Craig's own words:
Quote:
In 1992 I quit the body & paint trade and opened an auto glass shop. Here's a few of the basics I've learned for anybody who may be interested.
Laminated safety glass has been used in windshields since Model A times. A modern laminated windshield consists of a core of 0.030" clear vinyl, sandwiched between 2 sheets of plate glass. We all know how easily it breaks, with flying stones and any hard object...even a fist will break it. It has very little flexibility (until broken), thus requiring a framework to add rigidity and support around the edges.
Where laminated glass excels, is it's ability to keep folks IN THE CAR during a front-on collision. If you've ever tried to remove a windshield by kicking it out you'll know how strong and elastic that vinyl core is. If you DID punch through the glass and vinyl, the adhered glass fragments around the hole would likely cut you up REAL bad.
It seems though, in cases of car accidents, the laminated design holds together quite well, keeping the passengers "at the scene of the accident" as opposed to "on the road again".
Since about the early sixties, vehicles have utilized Tempered safety glass in the doors and backglass. Up until the late fifties or there abouts it was common to find laminated safety glass in the side windows of most American cars. It was relatively fragile and cracked easily if hit by a ball or even slamming the door too hard, especially if the glass was "floppin around" within loose runs and cat-whisker strips. You may recall many of these cars having a rigid chrome cap surrounding the door glass edges for strength. I liked that look!
Since about the early sixties, cars have utilized Tempered safety glass. Tempering is a process where the glass is heated red hot, then super cooled to trap high energy within the glass. The result provides up to a four-fold strength increase compared to untempered glass of the same thickness and, if broken, breaks into thousands of small cubic shaped fragments.
In the event of an accident, tempered glass can be shattered with a hard object, falling into a relatively harmless pile of bits, leaving an exit, while LAMINATED glass holds together (as it was designed to do) with considerable strength and elasticity!
For the record, I would NEVER install laminated safety glass in the side windows of my customer's car as it could potentially become a death-trap in the event of an accident.
Here's an example of how you can obtain tempered glass from your local glass shop by simply providing a cardboard pattern, pre-fitted to fit your window opening. I had the windows for my 1931 coupe made with 6 millimeter clear glass and tempered. I specified "no logo" on the order so they arrived without the manufacture's bug stamp etched in.
I had three sides of each door glass ground with a pencil polish. This displays a partially rounded, clear polished edge just like the original Model A plate glass and dramatically improves how the glass slides within the channel runs.
I'm confident these will pass in the event that my car ever sees judging, because they look exactly like the original plate glass. I can have a logo etched onto the glass if I choose at a later date.
On the subject of glass thickness, some research has found Model A door glasses measuring 0.204, 0.209, 0.217 and 0.266 inches.
Whenever I order tempered glass, I've found that most glass people don't seem to measure in thousands of an inch. Instead everything is done with a tape measure and there's definitely variation in each order. For example, to get what Americans call 1/4", I order 6 mm in Canada (yah that silly metric system).
My 6 mm coupe windows came 0.219" thick while two other 6 mm orders came in at 0.226" & 0.230", all from the SAME outfit! It seems these figures are close enough to 1/4" and everything seems to work out good.
I believe most glass shops will continue to make side windows from laminated glass with little regard for people's safety. They can turn out the job fast, without wasting a lot of time trying to educate the customer & fabricating patterns & waiting for the tempered order to show up.
I've touched on this subject before, but how can you argue with something they recommend in the judging standards?
Regards
Craig Lewis
December 2008
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:41 PM   #8
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

A quick check online seems to show only laminated glass. Even from supposedly high capability producers such as http://www.classicflatglass.com/Ford_Auto_Glass.aspx?

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Old 04-21-2017, 06:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

I don't have a clue about what you guys are saying except windshields need to be safety glass (3 layers) and side glass makes no difference.

I am replacing the front window in my A.
It was and will be safety glass.

The side windows will and are whatever they are.

Your modern only has 3 layer glass (safety glass) in the front window so why get you shorts in a bunch
.
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:58 PM   #10
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhusa View Post
I don't have a clue about what you guys are saying except windshields need to be safety glass (3 layers) and side glass makes no difference.

I am replacing the front window in my A.
It was and will be safety glass.

The side windows will and are whatever they are.

Your modern only has 3 layer glass (safety glass) in the front window so why get you shorts in a bunch
.
Plate glass breaks into large sharp, pointed chucks which can cut your head off in an accident ... That is what this is all about!!

Plate glass is just as dangerious in the side windows if you happen to go though the window like if someone hits the side of your car.

I have seen it several times with accidents involving plate glass ... it is NOT pretty.

Cars now have tempered glass in side windows which breaks into thousands of very small pieces that do not cut your head off when you strike the window.

The new cars that I bought in the 1960s had safety GLASS in windshield and tempered glass in side and rear windows.

Last edited by Benson; 04-21-2017 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:56 PM   #11
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe K View Post
A quick check online seems to show only laminated glass. Even from supposedly high capability producers such as http://www.classicflatglass.com/Ford_Auto_Glass.aspx?

Joe K
Bert's has tempered glass for the side windows. Here is the glass I got for my Town Sedan https://parts.modelastore.com/show_Product.asp?ID=6007
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

I can't tell you if your glass is plate glass or tempered glass, but if you think it might be safety plate (3 layers: glass, plastic, glass) just hold a pen or pencil against the glass and look at the glass at an angle. If it is plate glass you will see one reflection. If it is safety plate you will see two reflections.
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhusa View Post
I don't have a clue about what you guys are saying except windshields need to be safety glass (3 layers) and side glass makes no difference.

I am replacing the front window in my A.
It was and will be safety glass.

The side windows will and are whatever they are.

Your modern only has 3 layer glass (safety glass) in the front window so why get you shorts in a bunch
.
I don't think anyone is getting their "shorts in a bunch".

Please read the article on The Ford Garage about side glass. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/craiglewisglass.htm
Then YOU can do as you please...
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:34 PM   #14
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

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Bert's has tempered glass for the side windows. Here is the glass I got for my Town Sedan https://parts.modelastore.com/show_Product.asp?ID=6007
Thank you for that. I initially searched Macs and Snyders and got varied or uncertain results. One said "shipped from the manufacturer" which brought me to the link I gave.

I even searched Berts since they are my go-to for those hard to find parts - but I think I was searching a wrong web-page - Berts has more than one - and came up blank on searching "window."

I'm still looking in the barn for my 1990s era side locally produced side windows to check them for safety or tempered.

I should build myself a smaller barn next time.

NOT

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Old 04-21-2017, 09:09 PM   #15
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

I find it interesting how the words "death trap" have come to condemn laminated side glass in some circles.

Yes, it is tough to kick your way through laminated glass, but tempered that does not shatter is no better from a safety standpoint. You cannot kick through it in an emergency. Ever see all those little pointed escape hammers sold so you can get out in an accident?

I don't dare suggest the fact that tempered is way cheaper to make than laminated had anything to do with automakers making the side window material switch in the '60's. Nor styling trends...

When you travel by bus or train the side windows are laminated, not tempered. Apparently the rules are different. If my A were ever to roll over I'd rather have broken laminated holding my head inside during the roll than shattered tempered letting my head get the view from outside.

Of course, all this is probably a moot point, as everyone knows a Model A door flies open easier than a refrigerator door on Saturday night. Got seatbelts? I'll take laminated for side windows if I ever again replace glass.
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Old 04-22-2017, 06:45 AM   #16
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

At glass shop for 2 pieces of common glass to protect my Stained Glass beside the front door: "Rules say that close to the door requires TEMPERED GLASS"!----"BUT, that's TOO EXPENSIVE"!!!----"Come back tomorrow with the dimensions & DON'T tell us WHERE you're using it & we'll cut you some PLAIN glass"---(RASCALS!!!)
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Old 04-22-2017, 07:18 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON View Post
At glass shop for 2 pieces of common glass to protect my Stained Glass beside the front door: "Rules say that close to the door requires TEMPERED GLASS"!----"BUT, that's TOO EXPENSIVE"!!!----"Come back tomorrow with the dimensions & DON'T tell us WHERE you're using it & we'll cut you some PLAIN glass"---(RASCALS!!!)
Bill W.
Would that be front left (drivers side) or front right (passenger side?)

My mind imagines something like the Munster's automobile. You must be the talk of the neighborhood!

Of course I'm kidding - and I know in advance from your *entertaining* posts that you are already the neighborhood talk. And it has nothing to do with what you drive.

Keep on talking (writing). Color & spirit (piss & vinegar?) are in short supply these days.

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Old 04-22-2017, 08:50 AM   #18
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

I've never seen any real reason,in real life,to pay the big money for tempered glass instead of laminated for the side windows in an A.Laminated glass does not slow the rescue guys down a bit.I watched some of them demonstrating and practicing in a junkyard,8 seconds to take out a side window with nobody behind it and about 20 seconds if somebody is right up against it.My Macks,Brockway,and older International trucks all had laminated in the sidelights.My later IH and GMC Astro had tempered.
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Old 04-22-2017, 10:52 AM   #19
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I've never seen any real reason,in real life,to pay the big money for tempered glass instead of laminated for the side windows in an A.Laminated glass does not slow the rescue guys down a bit.I watched some of them demonstrating and practicing in a junkyard,8 seconds to take out a side window with nobody behind it and about 20 seconds if somebody is right up against it.My Macks,Brockway,and older International trucks all had laminated in the sidelights.My later IH and GMC Astro had tempered.
I agree. Tempered glass was introduced when curved side windows became available. I suspect it was cheaper to make the curved glass tempered than laminated. Ford used laminated glass in the side windows up about 1965. I feel it is a big improvement over plate glass.
I get my laminated safety plate glass from Vintage Glass USA in Tolland CT. Good prices, good service.
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Old 04-22-2017, 11:34 AM   #20
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Default Re: Plate Glass or Not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe K View Post
Would that be front left (drivers side) or front right (passenger side?)

My mind imagines something like the Munster's automobile. You must be the talk of the neighborhood!

Of course I'm kidding - and I know in advance from your *entertaining* posts that you are already the neighborhood talk. And it has nothing to do with what you drive.

Keep on talking (writing). Color & spirit (piss & vinegar?) are in short supply these days.

Joe K
Joe,
For clarification, the stained glass is beside my HOUSE door, it's 1 Ft X 6 Ft & NOBODY believes I made it MYSELF--even when I show them the Butcher Paper pattern, with BURN marks on it & even show them the leftover GLASS scraps
I ALWAYS leave my foyer light on, to show it off
WHUT'S a Guy to do????---I'll jist go watch NASCAR Bootleggers racing.
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