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07-09-2021, 04:23 AM | #1 |
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Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
Could any of you good people out there point me to the right thread or post for converting a'48 F1/M47 (8BA) pickup with 3 speed transmission to a T5 transmission. I understand that there are quite a few things to take into account for a conversion. Many thanks in advance.
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07-09-2021, 05:32 AM | #2 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
I’ve never done it, but I found moderndriveline.com Might be able to help.
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07-09-2021, 05:48 AM | #3 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
Didn't "Flat Ernie" have an "everything you need to know" thread about this, either here or on the H.A.M.B. a few years ago?
Try this "TECH: ULTIMATE T-5 ARTICLE" : https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...rticle.171291/. Last edited by tubman; 07-09-2021 at 05:56 AM. |
07-09-2021, 07:24 AM | #4 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
rotorwrench might be another person to contact.
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07-09-2021, 07:51 AM | #5 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
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07-09-2021, 08:01 AM | #6 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
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07-09-2021, 12:58 PM | #7 | |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
Quote:
waynet ..... You have asked a very broad question, but here's MY 'take' on the situation. Your pick-up obviously has an 8RT/8BA-type flathead in it, which should already be equipped with the cast iron "half-bell" transmission fixture. An added bonus is the fact that your pick-up already has an "OPEN" drive shaft, making T5 adaptation a snap. The MOST-IMPORTANT hurdle when deciding to use a T5 is in the selection of WHICH T5 to use. You can gain a lot of different T5 knowledge by visiting Flat Ernie's site, but unfortunately, it has become a 'hodge-podge' of useful data, plus a bunch of incorrect info that has been added by others over the years. I can point you toward valuable, pertinent information on T5s if you will be specific about what you wish to know. There are some "true scoop" things to know about T5s, and there are also a lot of 'myths' floating-around out there about these things. When a guy is wanting to put a T5 into an old Ford, the most-prevalent advice he is going to hear is to "get a T5 out of an S-10". Most folks that haven't done some research have no real comprehension as to "WHY" would someone want an "S-10 T5". First of all, EVERYONE should understand that the original Borg-Warner T5 design is such that it is ridiculously easy to swap different parts from some T5s, with parts from other T5s of different application....to come-up with many hybrid versions of the same BASIC transmission to suit a particular purpose. The main reason that folks think about using the "S-10" T5 variant is because it's shifter is mounted several inches further forward of the shifter location found on MOST T5s. This allows the shifter to exit the floor further forward of seat locations (especially bench seats), and the forward shifter location is closer to the original shifter location in many old Fords. ALL T5s have their shifters mounted in a fixture cast into the rear, tail shaft housing. The "S-10" T5 has a tail shaft housing which is different than most, in that it's shifter mounts at the extreme front of the housing, several inches forward of the shifter location on MOST T5s. What many folks fail to realize is that ALL T5 tail shaft housings will interchange with ALL T5 main cases. The only variable is that one must match WC (World Class) T5 parts with WC parts, and you must match NWC (Non World Class) T5 parts with NWC pieces. Other than that, it is desirable to swap an "S-10" tail shaft housing for a Mustang, or a Camaro tail shaft housing which have their shifters mounted toward the very rear of the tail shaft housing. The difference shown BELOW. Mustang and Camaro T5 transmissions, especially those that have come out of V8-equipped cars, have the favorable "close ratio" gear sets for vehicles to be driven on the street. These gear sets are also the ones with the highest TORQUE RATINGS because of their favorable, lower (numerical) 1st gear ratios. In fact, the Camaros have (in MY opinion) the most-favorable 1st gear ratio of all at 2.95, vs the Mustang 1st gear ratio of 3.35 to 1. What most folks don't realize is that there can be such a dramatic change in the characteristics of the way a vehicle performs by merely changing the internal gear ratios in a transmission. It's also true that most folks don't realize that "S-10" T5s usually have a 4.03 1st gear ratio, while SOME "S-10" T5s have a 3.76 1st gear ratio..........ALMOST just as bad! Those two 1st gear ratios (as designed for the performance of a wimpy 4-cylinder or weenie V6 in the original "S-10" pick-ups) are just about useless in a normal, every-day street-driven enthusiast vehicle with a flathead or a small Chevy type engine. Those 1st gear ratios are what you could define as "ultra-Granny"....virtually useless in a street-driven "enthusiast" vehicle. THE SOLUTION......obtain a Camaro or Mustang V8-type T5 with the GOOD, close ratio gear sets, and SWAP the tail shaft housing with one from an "S-10" with it's shifter location at the very front of the tail shaft housing. You will also have to swap the transmission LID with the short "S-10" shift rail from the same "S-10" trans. It is an absolute "BOLT-ON"! And now, you have a transmission that you will love from the first time you back out of the driveway. It has the close ratio gears, the highest torque rating, and the stick comes out of the floor in just about the perfect, ergonomic location. If you really plan things accordingly, you can use the proper parts (the POSSIBLE exchange of the "S-10" main shaft also to facilitate proper speedometer hook-up, NOT ALWAYS NECESSARY) for proper speedo application. It should be noted that the Ford T5s have INPUT Shafts of varying lengths and spline counts, which must be considered for proper adapter application. The V8 Camaro T5s (my choice for several reasons) all have a 26-spline input shaft of a single length, which makes adapter selection much easier. The Camaro T5s also have the more-favorable (my opinion) gear ratios for gears 1-4. The OD ratio for the Camaro is .63. If you decide to use a Camaro T5 (with the S-10 Tail Housing), this is the adapter package that you would need to adapt the T5 to your flathead block. You will also bolt this aluminum adapter to your existing, cast-iron HALF-Bell which is the piece you now have bolted DIRECTLY to your block. You'll use the above aluminum adapter bolted to your existing cast-iron HALF BELL, seen below. You can use the clutch CROSS SHAFT and FORK from your existing transmission in the Aluminum adapter. Hope this has enlightened you somewhat. I'll try to answer any questions you may have. DD Except for the fact that your 8BA/8RT is going to use the cast-iron half-bell seen ABOVE, the following thread should give you a very thorough idea of what your swap will entail. Click the link BELOW! https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/ad...ford-flathead/ ........ Last edited by V8COOPMAN; 07-09-2021 at 01:24 PM. |
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07-09-2021, 08:52 PM | #8 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
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07-09-2021, 09:09 PM | #9 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
Re: V8COOPMAN,
Sir I am graciously indebted to your knowledge. To put it simply I am new to F1/M47 and want a reliable 5 speed box to easily slot on to an 8ABA engine with very little alteration to floor boards, chassis, drive shaft angle etc. My aim is to reduce engine rpm at 60 mph and improve hill climbing ability and engine braking down hill. Many thanks. |
07-09-2021, 09:15 PM | #10 | |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
Quote:
waynet .....I'm still not sure why some of these folks continue to harp on this T170. It is only a 3-speed plus OD that apparently came in some F-150 Ford pick-ups. It's obviously NOT a 4-speed plus OD like the T5. It's pretty heavy, and it's not anything like as adaptable to different configurations like the T5 is. DD |
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07-10-2021, 10:49 AM | #11 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
The Tremec T170 RTS TOD is getting harder to find hard parts for too. The one thing that favors it is the shift tower location is closer to the old Fords and at least it does have an overdrive even if it is only a 4-speed. The use was from 1985 through early 1987 in Ford F150 and Bronco 2WD and 4WD. There are several applications depending on engine and rear axle gearing. Some are better than others on the highway. All this puts them in a less used and less available category than the multitude of T5 transmissions. The T170 TOD was made at the Tremec plant down in Mexico and the hard parts have not been manufactured since the 1990s. They get mixed up with their close relative like the SROD and the SMOD but only some of the gear parts interchange plus shifters & cases are different. Many TODs ended up in Model A conversions and quite a few were set up for the later Fords of the flathead V8 era. The popularity isn't what it used to be due to lack of support. The T170 TOD works just fine for regular driving. It's not the strongest unit and it wasn't made for heavy load hauling but it will take the place of an old Ford top loader just fine since they weren't all that strong either.
Last edited by rotorwrench; 07-10-2021 at 11:01 AM. |
07-10-2021, 05:27 PM | #12 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
V8Coopman - excellent description of the situation!
rotorwrench - also very helpful! I have one of those transmissions in an 86 F150 4x4 that has 360K+ on the clock. I've had it rebuilt twice in the past 32 years but have used and abused it during that time. With 3.50:1 rear gearing it's just about perfect and would be fine behind a flatty except for lack of support. I plan to use it for that until it gives up the ghost next time. |
07-10-2021, 07:40 PM | #13 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
Throwing my .02 in here.... The following with acknowledgment to DDCoop, for his opinion and enthusiasm. I truly admire the skill, both engineering, and fabrication, that Coop has put into his T5 job. And, I will venture a guess that a T5 behind a flathead, even substantially modified, will likely hold up quite well, especially if the driver treats it with a little respect. Having said that......
The T5 is a POS in it's stock form, in an 80's Jeep. I've had a few myself, and also have a daughter that drove one for many years. We could break them at will. Easily, a weekend of wheeling would result in a broken T5. And, I'm not just speaking for myself, but rather the general reputation amongst the Jeep community. Sooner or later, we all converted to something else. And, I still have the CJ7 that I've had for over 30 years, and the T5 has been gone for at least 20+ of those years. So, not saying 'don't use a T5 behind a flathead'. Just beware, they are NOT bulletproof. Another trans that was a POS in a jeep... AX5. Another daughter broke one of those five consecutive times, in short succession, after I gave her a good-running (stock) engine. Previous to that, with a worn-out tired engine, she drove it for years without breaking the trans. Obviously, my experience and opinion. Your mileage may vary. |
07-11-2021, 08:19 AM | #14 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
There's an inexpensive trans adapter that bolts to an 8ba bell housing that allows you to use all stock clutch parts. Shorten the drive shaft with the right U joint and the trans is in. Unfortunately the shift lever may be the biggest obstacle.
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07-11-2021, 10:07 AM | #15 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
Hi DD,
Re. "ALL T5s have their shifters mounted in a fixture cast into the rear, tail shaft housing. The "S-10" T5 has a tail shaft housing which is different than most, in that it's shifter mounts at the extreme front of the housing, several inches forward of the shifter location on MOST T5s. What many folks fail to realize is that ALL T5 tail shaft housings will interchange with ALL T5 main cases. The only variable is that one must match WC (World Class) T5 parts with WC parts, and you must match NWC (Non World Class) T5 parts with NWC pieces." - Will the S10 tail-shaft work with both WC and Non-WC boxes? - Is the 26 tooth Chevy output shaft only for V8s? Glenn Last edited by glennpm; 07-11-2021 at 12:24 PM. |
07-11-2021, 11:28 AM | #16 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
These are pictures of my 39 coupe. I purchased the conversion from speedway and It allowed me to use stock clutch assembly. I had the driveline built at Precision Engine in Moses Lake wa. I had to move the hole for the shifter back a few inches. I hope this helps. I really like it. Good luck
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07-11-2021, 01:58 PM | #17 | |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
Quote:
FIRST Question ....Will the S10 tail-shaft work with both WC and Non-WC boxes? TAIL shafts, or more-correctly...."MAIN" shafts are definitely EITHER NWC, or WC! This is because the two different shaft types are lubricated differently. Also, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears in a NWC trans have bushings that ride on the MAIN shaft. The 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears in a WC trans ride on little tiny needle bearings. Now if you were, in fact, asking about an S-10 tail shaft HOUSING, there are actually WC & NWC HOUSINGS, although the difference is difficult to see, and MOST folks claim that it makes no difference. It also has to do with lubrication...the lubrication of the bushing at the rear of the housing that the d-shaft yoke rides in. Below are pictures of the slight differences in the round, squiggly indent that fits directly behind the cluster gear center line. There is a little tiny plastic funnel, one being NWC, and a second one being of WC design, that fits between the end of cluster shaft and that round, squiggly indent in the HOUSING. I have always just used the correct funnel (WC or NWC) that matches the gear set in the MAIN case. Other differences in the S-10 rear HOUSINGS have to do with the speedometer drive location, and type....mechanical and electronic. Using an old Ford speedometer is usually not a problem as most T5 mechanical speedo drives use the identical cable hook-up as old Ford. NWC Housing WC Housing _____________________________________________ SECOND Question ...."Is the 26 tooth Chevy output shaft only for V8s?" The OUTPUT (MAIN) shaft isn't described as having teeth. IT is described by the number of SPLINES on it's rear segment. Chevy OUTPUT shafts have 27-splines. Ford OUTPUT shafts have 28-splines. The ONLY differences in OUTPUT shafts, say between Camaro & S-10 for instance, is the location of the speedometer plastic DRIVE gear. There are ways of adjusting/adapting that to make them line-up. Otherwise, there may be a difference in OVERALL shaft length by up to a FEW 16ths on the output end. Now, if you were actually referring to the INPUT gear/shaft, they can be referred-to by TOOTH Count, OR by SPLINE Count. The Chevy V8 INPUT shaft will have 24-TEETH, as well as 26-SPLINES. The S-10 and Camaro V6 INPUT shaft(s) will be either 10-spline or 14-spline, of varying lengths. Without finding a chart, I can't tell you the TOOTH counts on the S-10 variants. NOTE: SOME/ALL of the later S-10 input shafts (I believe 1993 and later) have 26-splines, but they are all in MAIN cases with the Ford bolt pattern. If this doesn't cover what you wanted to know, ask again and I'll try! DD ........ |
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07-11-2021, 02:23 PM | #18 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
Great DD, even though I was sloppy in my descriptions.
So do you think that the NWC S10 tail shaft housing will work well as long as the NWC funnel is used? Thank you! Last edited by glennpm; 07-12-2021 at 10:44 AM. |
07-11-2021, 03:40 PM | #19 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
A simple mod to the tail shaft housing, as long as you have it out, is to trim a slip joint bushing slightly and install it behind the existing one. This gives more bearing area for the slip joint.
Another simple mod that increases the overall life of the transmission is, screw a street "L" in the oil filler hole on the side of the case. When filling, this will increase the oil level in the transmission 1/2 inch. Fill to bottom of thread. I didn't dream this stuff up, my transmission guy did and it works on hundreds of T5's. |
07-11-2021, 04:27 PM | #20 |
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Re: Where to find info on gearbox conversion?
Excellent tips Pete!
I was just thinking this is crazy. I have no vehicle for the T5 that I wish to put it in. I want to do this project and look for an F1 truck for it :-) Glenn |
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