Cleaning oil pan sludge without dropping it- before changing to detergent based oil

[dfclimber]

I am going to be switching from non detergent oil to detergent oil
My car is a driver not a show car with an original motor
My oil pan has not been dropped and de-sludged.
I do not really have the time right now to get the gaskets and drop the pan.
I am going to be changing the oil soon at the end of the season.

Does any one have a recommendation in changing the oil when going to detergent oils.
----ie drain the old oil, close- add "magic detergent" or kerosine let sit to desludge-drain and then fill with new oil- done?

Thanks
D

[P.S.]

I just put in detergent 10-40 and ran it. Let the oil do its job, and it did.

[[email protected]]

Several of the Marvel Mystery Oil fans have been putting some MMO in with their oil before an upcoming oil change to help get the sludge out so it can drain out with the old oil..

[Richard Wilson]

May be a problem down the road if you are not running an oil filter system. The detergent oil will pick up the sludge and sediment and carry it in suspension. If it were me, I would keep running non-detergent oil until I knew the pan had been cleaned.

Also remember, that almost a quart of the old dirty oil will always remain in the dip tray and valve chamber when you change oil via the drain plug.

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by dfclimber

I am going to be switching from non detergent oil to detergent oil
My car is a driver not a show car with an original motor
My oil pan has not been dropped and de-sludged.
I do not really have the time right now to get the gaskets and drop the pan.
I am going to be changing the oil soon at the end of the season.

Does any one have a recommendation in changing the oil when going to detergent oils.
----ie drain the old oil, close- add "magic detergent" or kerosine let sit to desludge-drain and then fill with new oil- done?

Thanks
D

Don't be in a hurry here...do it right from the start and drop the pan and clean it up...take the valve chamber cover off and clean in there.

OR as they say..."you can pay me now or pay me later"!

Your car...your choice.

Pluck

[HoarseWhisperer]

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I'll be doing the same thing in the off-season (non-detergent to detergent) in the truck I acquired this spring.

But, I won't change it before dropping the pan and and cleaning all the gunk out. Don't want that stuff running through the lubrication system.

Why take chances with a good engine....

[Steve Wastler]

Be happy if you pull it and don't find much, the pan on my mail truck contained 1 1/2" thick sludge, about 50 bugs on, in and around the pump, a handfull of small gravel, 3-4 sticks. Oh, I'll add the oil on the dipstick and the 4 quarts drained out looked like it was put in the day before and not run.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

drop the pan, pull the valve cover and clean it. If you're short on time, continue with ND oil until you have the time to do it the right way. Pluck's absolutely right...pay now or pay later.

[roccaas]

Originally Posted by Steve Wastler

Be happy if you pull it and don't find much, the pan on my mail truck contained 1 1/2" thick sludge, about 50 bugs on, in and around the pump, a handfull of small gravel, 3-4 sticks. Oh, I'll add the oil on the stick and the 4 quarts drained out looked like it was put in the day before and not run.

Hey, was my wedding ring or speed ratchet down in the sludge? I can't find them anywhere.

How do sticks and gravel get into the pan? Through the filler?

[Steve Wastler]

Yes, I had wondered how myself! Another barner suggested kids had made 'offerings' over the years, sounds like that may have been. Sorry no ring or speed rachet...

[P.S.]

I guess it's a good time to point out that my engine had been rebuilt not too many oil changes before switching to detergent oil. The pan wasn't yet full of sludge.

I overlooked the obvious in explaination.

[Dave in MN]

Don't switch to detergent oil until you can clean the pan and valve chamber of the accumulated sludge.
What no one has directly mentioned is that if you switch to detergent oil, the sludge in the valve chamber may break up into globs and one of them may float over a main bearing supply tube and starve the bearing causing failure. As mentioned on earlier posts, the debris held by the sludge would also be put into suspension and passed through your bearings and against other mating surfaces. Not good!
Good Day!

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'd clean out any sludge, and while the pan is off it's a good time to check the bearings. Even if you just grab the rods and check for radial looseness and look for babbit pieces in the oil/sludge, that will give some indication of the babbit play. The pan can oftern be put back on with the same gasket and a light coating of silicone or another good gasket sealant.

[AlanD]

I'm working on a 1923 REO with the Model F 4 cylinder engine and there is no oil pan to drop, it's all one casting. The only way I could manage to clean out the sludge was to flush it all out with kerosine, over and over, until it came out fairly clear.

Alan

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by AlanD

I'm working on a 1923 REO with the Model F 4 cylinder engine and there is no oil pan to drop, it's all one casting. The only way I could manage to clean out the sludge was to flush it all out with kerosine, over and over, until it came out fairly clear.

Alan

I tried something similar to that. I installed an air hose into a bad drain plug, then put in 2 gallons of diesel and turned the oir pressure on low to make the diesel bubble for a few hours. I drained it and repeated this twice more. The diesel was fairly black, but when I pulled the oil pan a week later I still had an inch or thick crud on the bottom.

[329s]

Originally Posted by dfclimber

I am going to be switching from non detergent oil to detergent oil
My car is a driver not a show car with an original motor
My oil pan has not been dropped and de-sludged.
I do not really have the time right now to get the gaskets and drop the pan.
I am going to be changing the oil soon at the end of the season.

Does any one have a recommendation in changing the oil when going to detergent oils.
----ie drain the old oil, close- add "magic detergent" or kerosine let sit to desludge-drain and then fill with new oil- done?

Thanks
D

Just remember guys..."D" is in a hurry and does not have the time right now to get gaskets and drop the pan.

Pluck

[sethkestenbaum]

I have never dropped a pan but know that this servicing is well past due on my Phaeton. How "challenging" is it to do for the first time?

[329s]

Originally Posted by sethkestenbaum

I have never dropped a pan but know that this servicing is well past due on my Phaeton. How "challenging" is it to do for the first time?

It is not challenging at all. First drain what you can from the oil pan then jack the car up and put on some good car stands (preferabley those that you can drive up on with blocks on the back tires and the emergency brake on) and IF you are able to get under the car with a ratchet and socket, bolts can be taken off and it can be taken out, cleaned up and reenstalled.

But what about the oil pump you say...won't it fall down? Yes it will fall down and there are special tools one can make to hold the pump in place when dropping the pan and reassembling it.

Also remove the oil pump and clean it up while you have the pan off the engine.

Just remember safety first when ever getting under the car for any reason.

Pluck

[MrTube]

I would like to chime in regarding dropping the oil pan.

Now I'm not a mechanic and I don't work on cars much, however I am an electronic tech and also have experience in refrigeration. I recently installed my own 400lb steam boiler in my home as well which involved breaking apart and reconnecting into 80 yr old steel threaded pipes.


Now all of that said, I considered the two times I did the oil pan on our "A" to be one of the worst jobs I have ever done. Between the gasket not wanting to stay on the block and trying to get everything lined up while fighting the oil pump spring laying on your back it downright stinks. Of course, it may be different on a lift, but most guys don't have a lift I know I certainly don't.

Now I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, I'm just saying don't expect it to be easy or fun.

[Russell in Tulsa]

Those gaskets stay in place real good if you spray them with Copper-Coat. I recently did a '48 Ford flathead alone and had no trouble at all keeping the gaskets where they belonged. Try it, you'l like it.
Russell

[green30coupe]

D,
Why not just keep the oil level topped off until the end of the season and then drop the pan when you can afford the time? Might give you time to consider all angles for the job.....
(I use a little trim adhesive to hold gaskets in place during installation.)

Ed

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Russell in Tulsa

Those gaskets stay in place real good if you spray them with Copper-Coat...

Even a light coat of chassis lube is usually enough to get the gasket to stay in place when working from below.

[PC/SR]

Dropping the pan is sort of a pain the first couple of times. Get the front end on jack stands. That gives you more room, and you can turn the wheels full right or left to get the tie rod out of the way and have access to the front pan bolts. Buy the tool to hold the oil pump in place from a supplier. It is cheap and well worth it. There are threads on getting the gaskets in place correctly. If done wrong you will have a leak. Basically, the gasket tabs on the block sides gaskets have to go under the rear main cap gasket/seal into the notch on the rear main cap. Soak that main cap gasket in a cup overnight to get a curved set to it and cut it to the correct length. I use a thin layer of #2 Permatex to hold things in place and to goo up the corners. Use a ratchet with a 12" extension makes it easier to start the bolts on installation. Put the bolts in the socket rather than trying to get your fingers in there to start the bolts. Or use a couple of 2" long bolts the same size as the pan bolts to get the pan lined up.

[Terry, NJ]

Dropping the pan for any reason inspires memories of my 49-53 ford days and they ain't fun! Putting them back was even worse! So I'm leaning towards just putting the detergent oil into the engine. As Tom W pointed out, the diesel plus the bubbling cavitation didn't break off chunks of sludge. I Think the sludge will dissolve in in layers as you change the oil. I have no fears about putting MMO or a similar (ATF) product into the crankcase. In time, this combined with frequent oil changes, should clean the engine out. Am I wrong?
Terry

[1st_model_a]

I have a '28 A with an oil drain cover. Attached picture. Can I clean out the oil pan without dropping it after I remove the cover & pump? If so, any handy tools for doing it?

[Dave in MN]

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Originally Posted by 1st_model_a

I have a '28 A with an oil drain cover. Attached picture. Can I clean out the oil pan without dropping it after I remove the cover & pump? If so, any handy tools for doing it?

The only tool you will need is the socket to remove the cover and a hand small enough to reach in. The baffles on the dipper tray will limit how much of the pan you are able to reach.

[Brentwood Bob]

Would add that when you pull the valve cover and do a cleanout you make sure the oil galleys to the cam and mains are not plugged up in the process.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Brentwood Bob

Would add that when you pull the valve cover and do a cleanout you make sure the oil galleys to the cam and mains are not plugged up in the process.

Someone mentioned that they used "fat" pipe cleaners stuffed in the galley holes to protect them from getting plugged while you scrape out the black gooey crap! Bill W.

[gilitos]

The only reason to change to detergent oil is to keep sludge from forming in a clean motor. Change it often and the sludge won't hurt a thing. Your motor will do fine until you can drop the pan and valve cover and do a real cleaning. (It's even questionable if it's worth disturbing a well-running motor to remove the sludge, which isn't going anywhere). You're way better off staying with non-detergent until you can thoroughly clean out the motor. Anything you do to disturb the sludge that's there, like kerosene or diesel flushing or even changing to detergent oil, will only risk destroying your bearings, and it won't help anything.

[Benson]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Someone mentioned that they used "fat" pipe cleaners stuffed in the galley holes to protect them from getting plugged while you scrape out the black gooey crap! Bill W.

As Bob and Bill mentioned getting sludge in main bearing oil holes and plugging them up is a real possiblity.

There are the smaller cam bearing holes near the main feed holes to be aware of also.

SOME early engines do not have a rear cam bearing feed hole from the factory BUT many were drilled as specified by the service bulletins.

My suggestion is look carefully after removing the valve cover and

BEFORE disturbing the sludge!

1. find the two holes in the rear,

2. the one main hole in the middle (there is no hole for the middle cam bearing as it is feed by the oil pump near the distributor drive gear) oil pump drive gear

3.and last the two holes near the front. (is there a cam feed hole in front? ... it has been a while).

Once you move the sludge around it is too late. The junk will go down the holes or tubes.

It might help to leave the engine for a week after running it so that the oil drains down the oil feed holes. Makes it easier to find the oil feed holes.

If you do not distrub the sludge before finding the oil feed holes it is easier to find them because there will usually be a small depression in the sludge where the oil drain holes are located. Or even a small area where there is not sludge.

THe sludge can be sucked out with a hand operated "suction gun" (looks like a grease gun but with a large 3/8 hose hooked to it.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/WES...ubrication-_-L

A wet / dry shop vacuum might be used to suck the sludge out without forcing any down the feed holes BUT be sure there is no gasoline in the sludge! You do not want a explosion sparked by the shop vac brushes!

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Chief always said, "Do it right & don't "patch" it or it'll come back to HAUNT YOU. Patching it is only to get you home when it croakes on the road!"
As a kid, I was Chief's clean up guy, I remember HARD sludge build up that had to be scraped out with a stiff putty knife! Sometimes built up almost to the oil pump screen. A friend pulled the pan on a long time stored car and it had the oil pump screen covered with something??? that sorta' looked like an oily old piece of paper towel. Always pull the pan on a newly acquired car to be safe!!!
Assume NOTHING! My coupe had only about 1/8 cup of oil in the trans & diff. Somone must have drained them & had a brain fart & forgot to fill them. Bill W.

[Steve Wastler]

Originally Posted by gilitos

The only reason to change to detergent oil is to keep sludge from forming in a clean motor. Change it often and the sludge won't hurt a thing. Your motor will do fine until you can drop the pan and valve cover and do a real cleaning. (It's even questionable if it's worth disturbing a well-running motor to remove the sludge, which isn't going anywhere). You're way better off staying with non-detergent until you can thoroughly clean out the motor. Anything you do to disturb the sludge that's there, like kerosene or diesel flushing or even changing to detergent oil, will only risk destroying your bearings, and it won't help anything.

Obviously you have never seen how much or to what extent the sludge can be. Your first sent ace makes no sence. the oil pump is at the lowest point in the pan, and the pump has a cover pulling in from the bottom, large amounts of sludge certainly restrict good oil flow, and will clog the pump and oil passages.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Another reason to pull the pan is to check the dipper tray for pinholes caused by the acid in old oil, or water that gets into an old engine setting outside. Any pinholes will cause the rods to run dry during each startup. I bought an oil pan at a swap meet and it still had 3 quarts of old oil in it. Why anyone would not have dumped it is beyond me. After I got it home and dumped the oil and removed the sludge, I found 3 pinholes in the oil pan, and a few more deep rust pits.

[sethkestenbaum]

Thanks for the input guys. It sounds like it shoudl be "simple" until it gets "complicated". I may just put it off a little longer or wait for some more experienced help to join me.

[Tom Wesenberg]

If you remove the side cover and see the valve area is clean, then there's a good chance the pan is clean. If you see any sludge at all, you can bet there's a lot more in the pan bottom where it settles out.

Another easy thing to try is to take a thin wood dowel, cut a slit in the end about 1/2" deep. Stick it straight down the dipstick hole until it hits the pan bottom, then give it a quarter twist and pull it out. If there is no sludge caught in the slit then the pan is probably fairly clean.

[1st_model_a]

thx. Got the oil drain cover off but it is pretty obvious there,s no way to clean sludge by hand. Feel vertical barriers blocking area. Well as they say nothing hard is ever easy. Will drop the oil pan. Funny it already has "dents" on both ends - maybe someone really dropped it. BTW the oil pump screen was covered with grit.

This post is in reply to #26 Dave in MN. sorry I don't know how to post to your reply yet.

[SLPreston53]

As Puck intimated, there are many plans for a small "tool" that screws into the plug on the side of the block near the oil pump to hold it in place when the pan comes off. You can find plans for that tool here on FB (cost less than $5). That little item makes the processa TON easier because you are not fighting the pump.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by 1st_model_a

thx. Got the oil drain cover off but it is pretty obvious there,s no way to clean sludge by hand. Feel vertical barriers blocking area. Well as they say nothing hard is ever easy. Will drop the oil pan. Funny it already has "dents" on both ends - maybe someone really dropped it. BTW the oil pump screen was covered with grit.

This post is in reply to #26 Dave in MN. sorry I don't know how to post to your reply yet.

Just click on "Quote" at the lower right of post # 26 & you can reply to that post. Bill W.

[Chris H]

When I pulled my oil pan, I expected the worst when reinstalling the pan and new gaskets. I had the car on jack stands and used a small bottle jack to support the pan, just to hold it in place. I applied a very very light coat of silicone gasket sealant to the engine side of the gaskets to hold them to the block. Made sure the gasket surfaces were clean and free of oil, dirt, and grease. Then just raised the pan in place and adjusted the bottle jack to hold the pan in place while installing the bolts. It was very easy and took about an hour.

I thought it was too easy, and expected to see some leaks. So far so good after about 500 miles or so. I park it over a pan and never see any oil.

Maybe it was beginners luck ???

[cpetku]

I have big hands, so I must be missing something here...

After I pulled the oil pan, I pried out the baffle tray and was able to clean it and the oil pan in the parts washer. It took a small adjustment to the baffle to straighten the edges and a wooden tool (2x4) to re-install.

Why are people afraid to pull the baffle from the pan?

[gilitos]

Originally Posted by Steve Wastler

Obviously you have never seen how much or to what extent the sludge can be. Your first sent ace makes no sence. the oil pump is at the lowest point in the pan, and the pump has a cover pulling in from the bottom, large amounts of sludge certainly restrict good oil flow, and will clog the pump and oil passages.

Well, Steve, we're making a lot of assumptions about what I have or haven't seen in terms of the amount of sludge that can build up in a motor, aren't we? We could compare notes and I bet I've been in more old motors in compromised states than you have. (see? now I'M making assumptions about you without knowing anything about you, either!) If you had read the post a bit more carefully, you would have noted that I referred to a "good running motor", not a junker that had been neglected for decades and might have had the oil pump inlet (or other passages) occluded by sludge.

Sludge (1/2 inch or maybe more) is a fact of life in pre-detergent oil motors. It's not harmful in MOST cases; it's solid and isn't going anywhere. Disturbing it so that it circulates into the bearings, etc IS harmful. Better to leave it undisturbed until the ENTIRE motor can be cleaned during a rebuild, IMO.

[Steve Wastler]

I made no assumptions, you stilll make no sence, how could removeing the pan to clean out sludge be detrimental to the engine? Your taking it off and removing crap, and putting back clean??????

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Chris H

When I pulled my oil pan, I expected the worst when reinstalling the pan and new gaskets. I had the car on jack stands and used a small bottle jack to support the pan, just to hold it in place. I applied a very very light coat of silicone gasket sealant to the engine side of the gaskets to hold them to the block. Made sure the gasket surfaces were clean and free of oil, dirt, and grease. Then just raised the pan in place and adjusted the bottle jack to hold the pan in place while installing the bolts. It was very easy and took about an hour.

I thought it was too easy, and expected to see some leaks. So far so good after about 500 miles or so. I park it over a pan and never see any oil.

Maybe it was beginners luck ???

Naw! Chris, It ain't beginner's luck,
Chief would say, "IT'S SUPER SKILL!"
Keep on wrenchin' Bill W.

[1st_model_a]

Pried the oil pan off. Foolish me I thought it would come loose just by the weight of it. Used slim putty knife all the way around & separated gasket from pan. Had to beat the baffle out of the oil pan. It was stuck in retaining grooves. Question is: after cleaning the pan can see some beginnings of rust. Is this to be expected? Do I need to do anything to the pan before I put it back together? Attached pix of oil pan.

[Tom Wesenberg]

The rust doesn't look too bad. Are there any deep pits? I like to sandblast the inside and paint it with PPG DP-90, and top coat it with DCC 9000.

[tbirdtbird]

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Tom, you would sandblast the inside of an oil pan? Do you go to church every day? I would treat the rust which doesn't look bad with phosphoric acid and not paint at all. Why risk paint flaking off in 20 yrs and clogging a pump?

[Terry, NJ]

Correct me if I'm wrong, But a detergent Anything, Soap, oil, etc. Means it holds the dirt in suspension. It doesn't mean that it dissolves dirt or grease (sludge).
Terry

[gweilbaker]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

Tom, you would sandblast the inside of an oil pan? Do you go to church every day? I would treat the rust which doesn't look bad with phosphoric acid and not paint at all. Why risk paint flaking off in 20 yrs and clogging a pump?

He may mean the outside.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by gweilbaker

He may mean the outside.

No, I do paint the inside just like many industrial and marine engines. Never had a problem doing this and it makes the oil drain better, and keeps the acids from coming in contact with the metal on the oil pan.

[Timsalways]

As a rule of thumb, how often should the pan be dropped? I have a 1930 Tudor and dropped the pan to fix an oil leak and found the main tube was missing, the oil leak is fixed, but I read somewhere it should be dropped every so often because there is no filter

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Timsalways

As a rule of thumb, how often should the pan be dropped? I have a 1930 Tudor and dropped the pan to fix an oil leak and found the main tube was missing, the oil leak is fixed, but I read somewhere it should be dropped every so often because there is no filter

10-15 years will do it.

[western77]

Every time you check your main and rod bearings will do!

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by pat in Santa Cruz

drop the pan, pull the valve cover and clean it. If you're short on time, continue with ND oil until you have the time to do it the right way. Pluck's absolutely right...pay now or pay later.

I agree, pay me now or pay me later; sometimes the hard way is the easy way.
Years ago I switched a small fleet of school busses over from non detergent to detergent oil. At every regularly scheduled oil change interval, one more quart detergent and one less quart non detergent. Much more time involved than pulling the pan and side cover off of a model a engine; just my experience.
Chet

[Timsalways]

Originally Posted by Timsalways

As a rule of thumb, how often should the pan be dropped? I have a 1930 Tudor and dropped the pan to fix an oil leak and found the main tube was missing, the oil leak is fixed, but I read somewhere it should be dropped every so often because there is no filter

I like all Yall's answer! Looks like I'm good till the oil leak gets worse I started using a 15/40 diesel oil in it lately, she was on 5/30 for awhile, till I found out better. Thank you all for the help

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Dropping the pan for any reason inspires memories of my 49-53 ford days and they ain't fun! Putting them back was even worse! So I'm leaning towards just putting the detergent oil into the engine. As Tom W pointed out, the diesel plus the bubbling cavitation didn't break off chunks of sludge. I Think the sludge will dissolve in in layers as you change the oil. I have no fears about putting MMO or a similar (ATF) product into the crankcase. In time, this combined with frequent oil changes, should clean the engine out. Am I wrong?
Terry

I agree with what Terry says. A quart of MMO or ATF added with detergent oil at each oil change will clean the sludge a little with each oil change. The only way that I plan to remove an oil pan is with the engine removed and on the engine stand.

[J Franklin]

If you can not remove the pan and side cover to do proper maintenance, why not take it to a shop or dealer and have it done for you? You can supply the gaskets if they can't. My Ford dealer will do the job.

[tbirdtbird]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

If you can not remove the pan and side cover to do proper maintenance, why not take it to a shop or dealer and have it done for you? You can supply the gaskets if they can't. My Ford dealer will do the job.

Really!!??

[J Franklin]

Any good mechanic can do this job.