burlington crank

[diomed]

In the 2015 Scat catalog they also list a 7-A-4250-S, which has the original style oil slinger at the back of the crank.

Originally Posted by BlueSunoco

Looking at the Scat website, I see they list two Model A crankshafts the second one with 'oil holes'. I'm confused I guess is this for a pressurized system?? Part # 7-A-4250-H

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by M2M

Brent, well yes, really. As you just said, "SCAT has a superb reputation in the automotive aftermarket" a comment which I agree with. So clearly if the comments on the Model T forum are true, which I have no reason to believe they're not, they most certainly have dropped the ball by your measure.

You wrote:

"As for getting it right in USA vs. China getting it right, ....does that one really need to get debated here??"

There's a debate about USA vs China??? If so, I didn't start it...go back and read my comments. SCAT makes a point of mentioning time after time they employ workers in the USA to machine their cranks...that's great, I commend them. By saying "Made in USA" though you're saying something more...your saying QUALITY and CUSTOMER SERVICE, that's my point. I alway prefer to buy "Made in USA" if a item is priced competitively because of that.

Are you saying I'm 'bashing nonsense' by passing on information I have to forum members about an expensive and important Model A item? If so, perhaps your status as a dealer of these cranks is clouding your judgement. Also, note that I made a point of praising SCAT for looking after the Model T guy in question so you can hardly say my post was an anti-SCAT rant.

With regards to Model T cranks...who's the second manufacturer, SCAT and ? Even if there is one, I don't agree with you that it's automatically bad news when new competitors enter a market, but in the specific case of T cranks you might be correct.

It's certainly bad for consumers to only have one player. I welcome Burlington's return.

.

Well geez, it appears you really do not know if that comment is even factual yet because some small engine builder posted that one comment, without knowing all the facts you are jumping on a mission. Out of all the others of us who have purchased Scat cranks this year, where are all the other complainers at? There are none!!

I have spoken twice with Brian at SCAT today to find out the true story of what really happened on this deal. When you read what is written by Mr. Doleshal on that forum, ...and then you find out how the deal went down, it pisses me off because his story on the MTFCA forum is very misleading.

First off, Mr. Doleshal orders 5 crankshafts from SCAT earlier this year. (...likely an initial stocking order -or to get a better quantity pricing??) Adam complains about 3 of the cranks do not meet his approval so the factory sends a call ticket to pick them up at their expense. SCAT then credits Mr. Doleshal for 3 crankshafts at his request for them to do so. SCAT's Q/C gets the crankshafts back, they inspect them and find all 3 meet all of their specifications in finish and in sizes, ...so they repackaged all 3 of them and put them back into inventory. This is the only time they have received any complaints regarding T cranks that anyone there can remember.

Ironically, regarding the fillet radius, Brian told me that there are all kinds of Model-T engine builders and many have their own ideas of what they want. Bill Barth was the initial one that approached Mr. Lieb about manufacturing these Model-T crankshafts. It was Bill Barth that set the parameters (specifications) of what he wanted the crank to be. Since Mr. Doleshal did not tell SCAT to do anything different when he placed the order, they sent him crankshafts to the same specifications that Mr. Barth initially had them manufactured. Brian pointed out that if Mr. Doleshal had specified the exact fillet radius he wanted, or specified he wanted a different RA finish, they would have gladly met his requests. Isn't it amazing how the perception changes when all of the facts are known?? Why do you suppose 5 crankshafts were ordered but 3 were sent back for a credit, and he has not ordered any more crankshafts since that date??


Yes, there were three aftermarket T crank manufacturers, --one is gone now because of too many companies trying to survive in a small niche market. It is now only Bill Dubats out of Minnesota making a counterweighted crankshaft , --and Scat crank. Bill makes a great product however it is a ROI deal where I doubt he will make many more simply because of the economics. Feel free to do your homework about what I am saying!


As for comments by the poster following yours above, think this through. You begin making a certain high quality widget for a niche hobbyist market where you need to amortize your R&D and tooling costs over 10,000 sold units, ...and then I come into the/your market with one of my own products just like yours that is of equal quality. Now your projected sales in a given period has potentially been cut in half, which means it will take longer for you to get your investment back. My new product also makes a hit to your company's bottom line, but you will persevere on. The next thing we know, a 3rd manufacturer has decided they want to enter our niche market. The best way for them to compete is to have their product made off-shore where they can sell it cheaper. Now look at what it has done for your business' bottom-line. Lets say you were hoping to sell 10,000 units within 5 years which will break you 'even' where you can start making money in the 6th year of manufacturing these. When I came along and offered my product competing against you, this just put that 5 year time-frame out 'til 10 years. Things will be tight financially for both of us but we will squeak by financially. Now this 3rd manufacturer needs to sell his product too, so they offer theirs cheaper, or at less quality than ours to gain marketshare. Guess what, we have money invested in this so now we either must drop our prices to compete (less profit yet!!) or we must cut corners somewhere (i.e.: quality?) just to be able to sell enough of our widgets where we can pay the bills.

I realize that scenario above is lengthy but anyone that understands economics understand this is real-world, --and more importantly, this is what is happening in our Model-A reproduction parts world. I do not disagree that competition keeps everyone honest in business, but too much competition creates an environment where the 'honest' can no longer survive. This IS bad for the consumers as now it comes down to a cheap widget offered at a low price, and maybe ONE better quality widget whose manufacturer has been beaten up financially trying to compete, and possibly not up to the initial quality it once was. And, instead of that manufacturer making a profit where he can expand his manufacturing base and offer more items, he looks at his past financial statement and says the ROI risk is not there, ...so we lose when he chooses not to manufacture more needed Model-A parts. This is NOT reverse psychology nor some ploy for larger $$ signs! It is a factual perspective from someone who has been in this industry long enough to know what he is talking about.

.


As for other comments below yours above,

[TerryH]

Very well said and explained Brent, and the Model A niche market for almost anything has to be pretty small to begin with. Then when the good guys lose out, and the "cheap" guys survive, everyone then complains about how bad the quality is. It's hard to have it both ways!

[M2M]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

It is now only Bill Dubats out of Minnesota making a counterweighted crankshaft , --and Scat crank. Bill makes a great product however it is a ROI deal where I doubt he will make many more simply because of the economics. Feel free to do your homework about what I am saying!
As for other comments below yours above

Brent, thanks for your reply. I believe Bill stopped making cranks quite a while ago so as I said SCAT is only player for T cranks. Not good for consumers. So there is room for Burlington to enter that game; perhaps you can mention it when you talk to them.

By the way, this is what Bill had to say about closing down and SCAT cranks:

By Bill Dubats on Sunday, July 07, 2013 - 05:54 pm:I reluctantly closed my “Made in USA” crankshaft business over a year ago. I never heard of any breakage, and never grew tired of getting calls saying this crank “made the smoothest running T engine I have ever driven”. There were some negative and incorrect postings such as “a cast iron piece is likely to break…” No sense in trying to correct all the ignorance in the world, but heat treated ductile iron is very unlike cast grey iron in strength, E Modulus and toughness.
With the SCAT crank available, there was no need to continue my less cost efficient manufacturing plan. We did spectrometer testing on an early SCAT and found it was NOT the 4340 alloy claimed, but much closer to 4140. The Chinese only cut corners on one ingredient – the most expensive one, nickel. It has about ½ the amount to make it 4340, but that is moot, because to be stronger and tougher, 4340 would require a complex double heat treat process. As used, 4130 might have been a better material, less prone to stress hardening and embrittlment.
We also noted that the SCAT steel was the “dirtiest” steel I have ever seen. (sulfur and prosperous are “dirt”” in alloy steel.). Also did a hi-def. X ray of a new SCAT, and found it laced with tiny random spider web like inclusions. A metallurgist friend identified them as “sulfur strings” caused by excessive amorphous sulfur in a forging. Even so, and despite their high weight and over damping of cylinders 1 & 2, SCAT cranks seem to be working out OK.

Bill doesn't seem to be much of a fan of SCAT quality does he? Nor does he seem happy to have been taken down by the Chinese.
Bill's quote is from:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...4134183http://


Have you contacted Mr. Doleshal to get his side of the story? No, I'm guessing. So why is SCAT's version of events automatically the "true story", as you put it? Without contacting Mr. Doleshal we/you cannot make a judgement.

I've met Bill Barth, he's a great guy. Friendly and goes out of his way to help others. He's done a lot for the Model T hobby.

As for Mr. Lieb, he should perhaps learn some common courtesy and reply to emails people send him.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts when you have a SCAT and new Burlington side by side. If you could do the type of analysis that Bill Dubats carried out that would be also great. The "jewelry-like" finish (as you put it) of the SCAT is great but what's inside? I don't agree with you on everything but it's always interesting to hear your take on things.

Merry Christmas!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Thank you regarding Bill's comments. I formerly sat on the Board of Directors of a national club with him where we would discuss stuff like this. If Bill could not make a go of making cranks, I'm not sure anyone else would be any better off. I definitely don't think I should suggest that to the new Burlington owners. If they lost a pile of money like others before them have, I sure wouldn't want that on my conscience.

I am not sure that Bill got taken down by the Chinese, ...and yes I think he is probably a tad bitter over losing that much money in this venture. I do not have any reason to doubt Bill's analysis of the SCAT crank however, like I elluded to about, it evidently doesn't need to be perfect when good will be good enough! If we were to place the two Model-A cranks side-by-side for comparison, what would you say is the difference that makes one better over the other? In other words, let's here some feedback of what you would want checked (compared) on both crankshafts.

[diomed]

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I Googled to see if I could find info on the Dubats Model T crank. I found a 2013 price sheet and they were $1199, which is less that the Scat. I really expected them to be much more. Maybe he couldn't move enough Model T cranks to make it worthwhile. Maybe if he made them for Model A's it would be a different story. For the price, why would anybody buy a Scat?

[Chris in CT]

Hi Guys,

First and foremost, a Merry Christmas to all of you and my very best wishes for a safe and healthy New Year. I'd like to speak to a few of your concerns, and answer some of the questions that have been raised in the above discussion. Let me also say that I appreciate the loyalty and respect that so many of you have expressed toward the Burlington Crankshaft, a little project that has gone back a good ten years or so now since its conception.

First of all, your good response to the introduction of the Burlington Crankshaft was not always so. There was a great deal of initial prejudice against the product because it was made in China. This prejudice evidenced itself immediately by persons who had never even seen one of the new crankshafts, despite the fact that Chevy, Mercedes, Toyota, and Cummins were all having their cranks made in the same factory that produced the Burlington. Here is the true reason that I went to China: after contacting every forge in the United States, and finding out that not one would agree to even make the crank - not for love, and not for money - I reluctantly went overseas.

Start-up was very slow; initially we had only a very few sales in the first 3-4 years that the Burlington was offered. We also had to "place" a few of these cranks at our expense with a few key figures in the Model A hobby just to get someone to "try" the thing and start a word-of-mouth response. Meanwhile, I am "catching" some of the manufacturing issues ("bugs") that exist with any new, first issue, product. For instance, we had to face-grind the flywheel flange of each and every crank we sold to meet the less-than 0.001 runnout (Z-axis "wobble") requirement on the face of the flange.

Did you know that the main bearing runnout tolerance on a small block Chevy is 0.006? Did you know that main bearing runnout tolerance on a Model A is 0.002? Do you have any idea how difficult that is to do on a thin crankshaft section?

Anyhow, we had a very good production value: less than 5% of our production was returned for defect or failure, and all customer complaints were immediately addressed.

One reason dealers and other key contacts in the trade were not informed as I approached the end of my inventory is that I did not really know whether I was going to place a re-order until I was down to the last 50 or so crankshafts. I am 71 years old now, and looking to wind down some of my business involvements. Frankly, with the investment of time and money in this project, and the return on investment over the initial ten years, I made the decision to withdraw from the market.

Mr. Allison of Texas, who will be offering the Burlington Crankshaft, has all of the original specifications and the original molds. He also has the benefit of the background experience that I acquired with the crankshaft, and we expect that any original issues with the crank have been resolved and will no longer exist in the new unit. Furthermore, since he is entering the market with a reputable product, I believe that he will find it more remunerative than I was able to do. I have every confidence in him.

So, I hope that is enough disclosure for all of you. Oh, one thing: Yes, the SCAT product is a very good one, and I believe that the rough forging is actually made in India.

May the new year shine on the re-introduction of the Burlington Crankshaft, and its successful installation into many fine old Model A Fords. I send you all blessings, and especially James Allison, who has so gallantly picked up the torch!

Happy Motoring! Chris Robinson

[George Miller]

Chris I for one want to thank you for your work with the crank. Our hobbly needed good cranks. The last crank that I installed was a SCAT. I like the idea of 4340, but was disappointed with all the square edges from journal to journal. Seems to me that it would have a lot of resistance going through the air and oil Also around the rod journal was different than any thing that I have seen.

So for me I'm going to give your crank the highest marks.

[hardtimes]

Hey Chris,
THANKS much for sharing with us ! Since you are so knowledgeable about crank making processes, what is you opinion on how hard and/or much more expensive it would be to make a FIVE main Burlington crank.
We have a member here who is eventually making us an A block with five mains for crank. We are searching for a source for such a crank. Thanks in advance for any of you input/thoughts on this.

[Chris in CT]

Hi Hardtimes,

Until I made the decision to leave the business, I was toying with making a 3/5 main bearing crank with 1.750 in. mains and rodpins. The crank was to be set up in such a way that it could be used both in 3 main setups and 5 main setups (provided the engine builder was willing to fabricate bridges to support mains 2 and 4) the web would be expanded so that the slings would be 3/4 in thick instead of 5/8 s, and the new slim profile rods would be made of 7075 aluminum. The front main would remain at 1 5/8 inch so that the oil pan would not have to be modified...

Here's the deal: You would probably have to prove to Mr. Allison that there was a market for such a crank. Don't forget that he would have to have engineering drawings made, and then a foundry mold. This is a costly business, and anyone embarking on it would have to know how quickly he could amortize his costs and expect a return on his investment. Best way to begin would be to fabricate a one-off crank from 4340 billet, and de-bug it before going anywhere else with the idea. Is it do-able? Sure. Does it make commercial sense? I do not know.

It kinda fun to play with all these ideas, isn't it? Some are good, some are crazy, and some just might work! Have fun!

Oh, to answer your question, I would think that the actual costs of making such a crank would be directly comparable to the cost of making the current crankshaft.

[Pinstripe]

excellent posts thanks

[quickchange]

The 1st 4340 billet 5 main B crank is almost finished down under. testing in 2015,
Enjoyed reading the above posts, most interesting .

[hardtimes]

Hey Chris,
Thanks for your response and for the insight into the business end of crankshaft manufacturing.

Very encouraging information for those who are anxiously awaiting the Tod Buttermore new block.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by quickchange

The 1st 4340 billet 5 main B crank is almost finished down under. testing in 2015,
Enjoyed reading the above posts, most interesting .

A couple things worth mentioning, Dan Price was making (casting) the main webs to weld into an A/B block to convert from 3 to 5 mains. For those in the market for a 5 main crank, please consider the crank that Derek is speaking of, but if someone needs another source, I am pretty sure it was SCAT that mentioned to me they had the capability. If not them, maybe Moldex? Maybe a quick call to Kathy Donovan to ask who is making them for the Model-D?

[M2M]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

If we were to place the two Model-A cranks side-by-side for comparison, what would you say is the difference that makes one better over the other? In other words, let's here some feedback of what you would want checked (compared) on both crankshafts.

Maybe compare the weight of the two cranks. A SCAT T crank was around 7lbs more than a Dubats T crank, and double the weight of a stock T crank.

If there is a substantial weight difference between the two then what are the implications, both positive and negative?

Don't know, but for example maybe a heavier crank is not what you want when using babbitt? How does a heavy crank match up with a lightened flywheel? You and others who understand such things can investigate these issues.

[jallison15]

Much to our displeasure, an unexpected labor strike on the west coast port of entry into the USA has delayed our much anticipated delivery of cranks.
As we learn more, we will post to bring ya’ll up to date. Stay tuned!

[TinCup]

Come on Al just drive out there and get them. Swing by OKC and I will go with you.

[jallison15]

I am fabricating pontoons for the Vicki to motor out to the ship, as we speak!

[TinCup]

I believe it!

[jallison15]

At last posting our journey of production, receipt and “delivery ready” Burlington Cranks was pirated by a little shipping strike on the West Coast.
Super good news!
Pirates gone, cranks have arrived and undergone quality control ~ ready for shipment as of this update.
Orders now being accepted, you may contact me via [email protected]
or 512-461-4906 ~ look forward to hearing from you ~ James “Al” Allison.