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Old 10-20-2020, 09:07 AM   #21
yblock57
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

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Originally Posted by Dominic Hide View Post
A little tip that you may find useful when it comes time to reinstall. If you replace the stock slot head screws with equivalent size socket cap head screws, a flat head allen wrench (not ball end) will hold the whole assembly, making it a one handed operation.

Attachment 445201
Excellent tip! If it has to come out again, that's what I'm doing.

I did get the NOS gov installed last night. Unfortunately it didn't make any difference in shifting. Still shifts at 33 mph regardless of kick-down rod adjustment. Removed it from the equation at least.

The NOS gov did NOT have a spring as several have mentioned on here. Installed without a spring and was hoping that would get me in the ballpark, but no dice.

Any suggestions on where to look next appreciated.

I know I need to get some pressure readings and have bought a gauge. Will run the tests and post back.

Thanks,
Kent
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:02 PM   #22
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

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Excellent tip! If it has to come out again, that's what I'm doing.

I did get the NOS gov installed last night. Unfortunately it didn't make any difference in shifting. Still shifts at 33 mph regardless of kick-down rod adjustment. Removed it from the equation at least.

The NOS gov did NOT have a spring as several have mentioned on here. Installed without a spring and was hoping that would get me in the ballpark, but no dice.

Any suggestions on where to look next appreciated.

I know I need to get some pressure readings and have bought a gauge. Will run the tests and post back.

Thanks,
Kent
There is a bracket on the valve body that limits the outward travel of the throttle valve which controls minimum throttle valve pressure. Sometimes this bracket gets bent holding the valve in slightly raising the minimum pressure causing higher shift points and firmer shifts.
Bill
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

Well that's unfortunate, sure felt the spring would be the culprit. I still feel that the transmission is seeing more throttle pressure than is really there. First I would double check that the control rod is adjusted as short as possible and also that the spring on the detent at the bellcrank is holding and not letting the linkage slip into passing gear mode when you press the accelerator. If all that checks out then I think I would next take a look at the valve body.

IMG_0939valve body 2.jpg

valve b0dy 2.jpg

the valve body on the right in each of these pictures shows a stuck throttle position valve. When working correctly the control arm rests against the piston behind the L bracket. Foot pedal movement will push the piston into the main body where it compresses a spring, visible in the open area in the middle of the body. Once spring is compressed enough it will move a second piston to exit the other end of the passage. Once foot feed is lifted the second piston should be snapped back into the main body by the spring steel strap. If either the first piston is stuck in, or the second piston is stuck out then he transmission will be seeing incorrect throttle position. Valve body on left shows pistons in correct position when at rest.
Not saying this is the answer to you're problem, just where I would look next. If all that checks out OK then I think I would do an air check for a broken distribution ring. Pretty easy to check while the pan is off, but not so easy to repair if needed.
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:01 PM   #24
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

Many years ago I dealt with one of these early Fordomatics that was acting weird. I forget the details, but there is an aluminum sleeve pressed into the front of the output shaft that directs fluid through the shaft to the governor that can get out of position. You my have a similar problem or a blockage in the shaft passages........I just found a cross section view in my 1959 Chilton's Auto Repair Manual, page 109 and an end view on page 123. Both the output shaft and the intermediate (or "primary sun gear shaft") have metal seal rings that could be bent or broken or missing.

I don't know how to get a diagram from the printed page to this forum, but if you PM me your email, I will attempt to text you a picture from my phone. I just took the pictures and they turned out clear and readable! Let me know.
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:30 PM   #25
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

Thanks for the responses!

I did a little checking on the throttle linkage. Dad said he set the linkage and accelerator pedal height per the shop manual with the 1/4" drill bit to lock the pieces in place and get everything set. I have not double-checked his work, but it looks correct. What seems to be an issue here is the throttle stops at about 1/2 travel. If you remove the kick-down rod it moves completely open with no resistance. I can't believe this was not noticed until now. I've included a link below to a video I made to help explain what I'm looking at.

https://youtu.be/_61b9NP3g2Y

This was an issue when we put the transmission back in and was explored then. I thought this had been resolved but obviously not. For the sake of comparison, I made a video of a friend's '57 thunderbird with the same functioning setup and his kick-down rod appears to have the same amount of travel (approx. 1")

https://youtu.be/W6HoDwVATnk

I'm going to go back through the steps listed in the manual on setting up the bell-crank linkage and see if that possibly changes things. If not, maybe something is possibly bent or needs to be looked at closer.

Would any of this indicate a stuck throttle valve as Dominic Hide suggests? I feel a positive stop when depressing the rod and it springs back up to the top again. Possibly a bent bracket on the throttle body that bbrocksr mentioned?

Last edited by yblock57; 10-20-2020 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

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Thanks for the responses!

I did a little checking on the throttle linkage. Dad said he set the linkage and accelerator pedal height per the shop manual with the 1/4" drill bit to lock the pieces in place and get everything set. I have not double-checked his work, but it looks correct. What seems to be an issue here is the kick-down rod only has approximately 1" of travel. This stops everything at about 1/2 open throttle. I can't believe this was not noticed until now. I've included a link below to a video I made to help explain what I'm looking at.

https://youtu.be/_61b9NP3g2Y

Would this indicate a stuck throttle valve as Dominic Hide suggests? I feel a positive stop when depressing the rod and it springs back up to the top again. Possibly a bent bracket on the throttle body that bbrocksr mentioned? 1" of travel doesn't seem to be enough to operate.

I feel like this is getting close.
With the pan off work the lever by hand and watch the valve movement.
Spring pressure will hold the valve against the lever and the lever against the L shaped stop. The L shaped stop bracket is the bracket I referred to .
I have seen them get bent toward the valve holding the lever and the valve in slightly increasing the pressure
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Old 10-21-2020, 11:32 AM   #27
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

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With the pan off work the lever by hand and watch the valve movement.
Spring pressure will hold the valve against the lever and the lever against the L shaped stop. The L shaped stop bracket is the bracket I referred to .
I have seen them get bent toward the valve holding the lever and the valve in slightly increasing the pressure
I will absolutely be checking this. Want to get a line pressure test first before I drop the pan to get some baseline readings.

I suspect this could be an issue along with something else in the valve body. I drove the car with the kick-down rod completely removed and it still shifted at 32 mph regardless so the pressure is obviously still too high.

Thanks,
Kent
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Old 10-21-2020, 07:25 PM   #28
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

This is great. Someone is having a problem, and people are trying to help diagnose the issue. This is how these boards are supposed to work. The only thing better is when it's fixed if the solution is reported fully explained. That closes the deal.
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Old 10-22-2020, 06:36 AM   #29
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Talking Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

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I don't know how to get a diagram from the printed page to this forum, but if you PM me your email, I will attempt to text you a picture from my phone. I just took the pictures and they turned out clear and readable! Let me know.
If you can upload the photo(s) to your computer, it is fairly easy to post them here.

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Old 10-22-2020, 09:25 AM   #30
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

I drug my butt off the couch last night and got the pressure readings on the thunderbird. As suspected, they're higher than the ranges specified in the book. The stall tests were low due to things binding at half-throttle due to the kick-down rod not moving enough. I made sure everything was up to temp before getting readings.

I rechecked the linkage adjustments before I started the test. The only thing I couldn't get in spec was the accelerator pedal height. Book says '57 thunderbird should be 4 7/8". I couldn't get any more than 3" with the adjustment set as far as it would travel. Not sure that matters much in the scheme of things but wanted to make a note of it.

Line pressure readings (psi):

Idle in drive — 80 — Book says 55-70
1k rpm in drive — 140 — Book says 80-85
Stall in drive — 150 — Book says 147-180 (not really full throttle as my linkage limits me around 1/2 throttle so this is probably a lot higher)
Stall in reverse —190 — Book says 194-216 (same as above)

Thought about dropping the pan but was too tired. Now that I have the numbers, that confirms what we talked about. I removed the kick-down rod from the transmission and measured 3/4" movement. I think it needs to move more. It would explain the linkage binding. I'll be looking closely at the 'L' bracket on the throttle body when I drop the pan.

This is starting to make sense. Trans is seeing too much pressure and shifting late because of it. Hopefully the 150ish miles put on it haven't damaged anything.
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Old 10-22-2020, 06:16 PM   #31
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

I doubt if too much pressure like that will hurt as long as the problem is corrected soon. It's usually not enough pressure that kills the plates due to slippage.
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Old 10-22-2020, 07:05 PM   #32
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

I have a 57 Skyliner with a 292 that was a 2-brl. I changed it over to a tri-power. Turns out it was not a big deal until I decided I wanted to keep my automatic trans. After reading everything, and my own experience, I believe that the TV rod is where the trouble lies. The trans thinks that the throttle is down. That is why it's shifting late, and the pressure is higher than desired.

That TV linkage is the equivelant of a throttle position sensor on a new car. Shorten the throw of that TV linkage FROM THE MANIFOLD ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE TRANS ARM NEAR THE PAN, and the car shifts sooner and softer. Hence longer means harder. In my case going from the Ford manifold to the Offy manifold the mounting height above the garage floor for the was lower. I had to cut my rod, and thread it more, because it was simply too long (the lower rod with the pin through it).

I have an idea. Find another car like yours, and get under it and measure how far that TV rod is above the garage floor. Then have someone reach in and hold the accelerator fully open, and measure again. There is your answer.

Just my 2-cents...
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Old 10-23-2020, 08:51 AM   #33
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Post Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

The main problem(s) (IMO) with this type of trans is the TV control. While there is nothing basically wrong with the design, worn, incorrect assemblies and incorrect adjustments are the main culprit(s). The same problem(s) are repeated with the later AOD, although not to the same extent as most are cable operated.

If one desires a more performance style trans (over a normal driver), the FMX swap/upgrade is the way to go as it retains the early design/appearance and does not need an expensive adapter kit.

Read This - https://sixtyford.wordpress.com/2014...ide-apparatus/
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Old 10-23-2020, 09:40 AM   #34
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Post Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

Good overall description of period fluids -

Quote:
The original trans fluid spec for almost everything in the USA prior to 1968 was "Type A, Suffix A" automatic trans fluid. Earlier versions didn't have the "Suffix A" designation.

Type F ATF was a Ford exclusive fluid from 1968 until they started having many different fluids in the 1990s. That was the same year that GM came out with their GM-spec "Dexron" fluid. Chrysler eased from Type A Suffix A into Dexron in '68, also, as the supplies and ready availability of Type A Suffix A fluid dwindled.

The difference in Type F and Dexron differed in their frictional characteristics of the "initial apply" of the frictional units in the trans. GM added clutch capacity to their trans so they could use a fluid with a less agressive (i.e., "smoooth") apply whereas Ford went the other way, with more agressive apply and less clutch capacity, so "intentional overload" would result in a slight amount of "slip" due to the lesser clutch torque capacity, friction material wise. CAR LIFE magazine had an article on this subject, back then, with graphics of the clutch/band apply actions of each transmission.

Type F fluid was a "hot rod trick" for GM transmissions, sometimes mimicing a shift kit installation with the "more positive" shifts. B&M Transmission products seemingly patterned their "TRICK SHIFT" fluid after the way the Ford Type F fluid behaved, but that's speculation based on the way a GM trans acted with Trick Shift in it.

In later years, manufacturers have found somewhat better ways to modulate shift harshness/firmness. Line pressure variations and electronic controls are some.

When my grandmother was driving the '58 Fairlane (292-2bbl, F-O-M), I distinctly recall how positive the initial engagement was going into the forward drive ranges or "R" from "P" or "N". That was when Type A fluid was still around. On that orientation, I think I'd use Dexron to lessen the initial shift shock for the drivetrain (u-joints and rear axle internals).

I'm somewhat surprised that NAPA showed the Type F rather than the later Mercon V fluid. In many cases, Dexron III and Mercon V are sold with the same branding, but I suspect the Mercon V fluid might have a better base fluid stock than Dexron did as I know a few transmission shops who converted to Mercon V rather than use Dexron III. In that older trans, I believe I'd NOT use the newer Dexron VI fluid . . . it's believed to be a blended-synthetic base stock and is more expensive. Seems that the Mercon-spec fluid had a better anti-shudder friction modifier for lockup torque converters, which would not be applicable here.

ONE distinction between the Ford ATF, whether Type F or Mercon V, is that they are also rated for power steering use. Dexron-family ATF is not, as GM has their own specific power steering fluid. Although Ford has allegedly ceased licensing the Type F oil, it's still available from Motorcraft.

In the USA, Type A fluid is still around, but not in the usual places. It used to be prevalent in the convenience stores and food stores, of all places, plus some older auto supplies who had clientel who had older vehicles which needed it.

The NAPA recommendation of Type F might be due to the recommendation of Valvoline for Type F fluid in "Ford products prior to 1980". Of course, by the time 1980 came around, people had forgotten about Type A spec fluid and it was well known that Ford automatic took Type F fluid (at least from 1968+), until later transmissions needed specific fluids. I suspect that if you look around, you'll find some Type A fluid somewhere.

From my own experiences, I'd NOT put Dexron in any power steering unit . . . the rubber seals and o-rings are not compatible with that fluid, causing seeps and weeps . . . all of which stopped when I bled the system and put normal (Chrysler in this case) PS fluid in the system.

In the world of GM, though, they recommend the most current Dexron fluid (Dex VI) to be backward compatible all the way to 1948 in GM automatics. ONLY Type A fluids existed back then. My concern about using Dex VI in earlier transmissions is that in some cases, seal materials might not have the longevity they need to have with a fluid that has some or more synthetic in it than the orig fluid did. Hence, Dexron/Mercon multi-make fluid.

This might be a somewhat complicated answer, but there are several ways to look at this situation.

Regards,
NTX5467

QUOTED SOURCE - https://forums.aaca.org/topic/197099-ford-o-matic/


TYPE F is still readily available. TYPE A(s) are now used mainly for dirt bike trans usage

MERCON V is a partial synthetic and supersedes all previous FORD MERCON types. If you have a problem using a synthetic, DEXRON is still available in the old blend (GM). FORD only uses MERCON V. If the car is a late model, check OWNERS MANUAL or MOTORCRAFT LUBE CHART for proper fluid type.

FORD used(s) DEXRON and/or TYPE F PS FLUID according to period application. Again, OWNERS MANUAL

FORD and GM went their separate ways in 1961 as each modified their trans for different shifting firmness. TYPE F was not introduced until 1967 for the 1968 model run.
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Last edited by KULTULZ; 11-01-2020 at 10:42 AM. Reason: ADD INFO AND CREDIT WHERE CREDIT DUE
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Old 10-23-2020, 01:49 PM   #35
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

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Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post
Good overall description of period fluids -

Type F fluid was a "hot rod trick" for GM transmissions, sometimes mimicing a shift kit installation with the "more positive" shifts. B&M Transmission products seemingly patterned their "TRICK SHIFT" fluid after the way the Ford Type F fluid behaved, but that's speculation based on the way a GM trans acted with Trick Shift in it.



You're onto something here! Read the fine print on a bottle of B&M "Trick Shift". It says "Meets Type F specifications"! So it's possible "TRICK SHIFT" fluid is just Type F in a fancy bottle!
By the way, thanks for your research on ATF types. Well done!
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Old 10-23-2020, 02:02 PM   #36
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Thumbs up Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe View Post

You're onto something here! Read the fine print on a bottle of B&M "Trick Shift". It says "Meets Type F specifications"! So it's possible "TRICK SHIFT" fluid is just Type F in a fancy bottle!

By the way, thanks for your research on ATF types. Well done!
Yes, TRICK SHIFT is a TYPE-F fluid basically ...

I studied all ATF TYPES some years ago due to the lack of knowledge back then. The author of that info was not me but a poster on another FORUM who basically put it all in a nutshell.

THANX for the kind words but it was not me, just trying to bring info to light.
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Old 10-23-2020, 05:12 PM   #37
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

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The only thing I couldn't get in spec was the accelerator pedal height. Book says '57 thunderbird should be 4 7/8". I couldn't get any more than 3" with the adjustment set as far as it would travel. Not sure that matters much in the scheme of things but wanted to make a note of it.
It actually might matter. If you can get the accelerator pedal at the right height, your passing gear link will be able to travel the factory designed length.

The T-Birds have what they car an "accelerator connecting link between your firewall bellcrank and intake manifold bellcrank. The thing to do is to remove that link, then put a temporary wood block under the gas pedal till it is at the right height. Then go back and fit your accelerator connecting link into place and see how far you need to adjust it. Be careful not to get too far near the end of the threaded rod in the link, you made need to screw it back in some and loosen the other end and unscrew that end. (Lengthening the accelerator connecting link will push your gas pedal further off the floor).
Next you must redo your passing gear linkage adjustment as shown on page 21 of the 1956 Fordomatic shop manual.
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Old 10-24-2020, 09:28 AM   #38
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Post Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

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Next you must redo your passing gear linkage adjustment as shown on page 21 of the 1956 Fordomatic shop manual.
There is no passing gear adjustment (intermediate gear) externally. There is no passing gear kick-down lever. It is a TV rod.

The reason for the initial linkage adjustment(s) are to get the linkages into the ball park as final adjustment(s) are done with a pressure gauge and makes that adjustment more precise and easier to perform.

Also, manuals are updated quarterly, and along with TSB's, will give any updated service procedure(s). The 56 manual may not be up to then 1957 specifications.

You have to follow the procedure outlined in the correct manual, and that starts with proper curb idle speed.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg TRANS - FOM- Early COM TV Press Adj _1.jpg (42.4 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg TRANS - FOM- Early COM TV Press Adj _2.JPG (45.0 KB, 10 views)
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Old 10-24-2020, 10:42 AM   #39
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Default Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

I would also wonder if there is a possibility that the engine was changed at some point and it may not have the same linkage as it originally had. There has been a lot of water under the bridge since 1957.
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Old 10-24-2020, 02:56 PM   #40
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Post Re: Fordomatic late shifting ('57 thunderbird)

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I would also wonder if there is a possibility that the engine was changed at some point and it may not have the same linkage as it originally had. There has been a lot of water under the bridge since 1957.
Yes, but that should be discovered while following the basic linkage setup procedure. It also may be worn-out/binding (pivot points).
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