Banjo rear lube level

[phartman]

A simple question, but....

What is the best way to check the lube level in the differential, other than sticking my finger down in the access hole? And what is the best way to add lube without overfilling?

I understand the proper lube level is an inch or so below the hole, but how will I know how much to add?

Am I missing a simple answer here?

Thanks.

[phartman]

Oh, and I am using the 600 wt. from Mac's. Is that what I should be running?

[rotorwrench]

You can run any number of modern gear lubricants in the rear axle. SAE 90 summer & SAE 80 winter were the old single grade types. You can run SAE 140 if you have a leaking problem or your in a high temp region. Multi-viscosity lubes like SAE 85W/140 can be used since there is no worry of yellow metal deterioration like the old transmissions had problems with.

I use a lube gun with a set volume to fill all the stuff under a car or truck. You can draw a set amount into the gun and then keep track of how much you need to put into the gun in order to properly fill the component. If the gun holds a quart and your componant needs 3-quarts, it's pretty easy to manage that way. The only other problem is converting from pounds to liquid measure since so many of the old manuals call out lubricant in pounds.

[Ralph Moore]

I just fill them until the fluid runs out of the top hole and then plug it. Simple, but effective.

[hardtimes]

Out of curiosity, why not just stick your index finger in...to first joint? If you can touch lube your good to go. If not fill till you can. Or you could make a 'tool' that imitates your finger bend...and place that into fill hole to perform same same,eh!
One caveat tho....don't be tempted to just fill/overfill till lube runs out the hole. Cause if you have substandard seals and / or WRONG lube...you will eventually find that lube in places that will cause you heartache!

[Mart]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Wait a minute - if ford drilled a level plug in the casing, then that is the level, surely, where did this setting it to an inch below come from?
The ford factory are not going to drill the hole an inch above where it should be???

Is it just that in practice the rear will run perfectly happily with the level a little lower than full and will tend to leak less??

Is that what we are talking here??

I must admit I've always filled till it came out, let it drip for a few minutes then plugged em up.

Don't worry, with a bit of driving, it'll end up lower anyway.

Mart.

[phartman]

OK, I think I have an answer. I am told that the fill level is 1/2" below the opening when COLD: and level with the fill hole when HOT. That would make sense.

Am I correct here???

[Vic Piano]

I've always used 85/140 oil in the rears and filled them until oil drips out of the plug hole...

[31chevy]

I use 600 # in my 34 both tranny & differential, it was the recommended lube at the time, however with todays modern lubricants ???. And I do keep the differential level down one finger joint. So far so good.
Gary.

[Fibber Mcgee]

My 32 to 41 shop manual says"Add extreme pressure gear oil to level of filler plug hole" on page 31 at the top of lubrication chart. It also says "temperatures over 90 use S.A.E 140 and temperatures between 15 and 90 use S.A.E. 90"

[Bruce Lancaster]

From '32 up Ford recommended SAE gear oils meant for the sliding contact of the curved teeth, NOT 600! The first modernish lube spec in '32 (I don't have the owner's manual here) was some odd SAE number no longer made, like 220, by the mid '30's the modern viscosities of 90 and 140 were in the books and replaced the earlier numbers entirely in service books. 600 is a relic of pre-EP days and was NEVER the lube specified for V8 Fords.

[rotorwrench]

I'm not sure about the pre-war vehicles but post war car & commercial rear axles capacity is 2 1/2-pints. That's only a cup more than a quart. Some of these old books have misleading information programed in. It will tell you a capacity of 2 1/4 pints in one section then in another it will tell you to fill with 2 3/4 pints. It will then tell you to top it up to the filler hole. It has always led to a lot on confusion about what is correct. If a person drains the housing & adds 2 1/4 pints back in, you might be surprised where the level ends up. Overfilling can cause other problems.

[phartman]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

From '32 up Ford recommended SAE gear oils meant for the sliding contact of the curved teeth, NOT 600! The first modernish lube spec in '32 (I don't have the owner's manual here) was some odd SAE number no longer made, like 220, by the mid '30's the modern viscosities of 90 and 140 were in the books and replaced the earlier numbers entirely in service books. 600 is a relic of pre-EP days and was NEVER the lube specified for V8 Fords.

Bruce, would you recommend the straight weight or the multi -viscosity?

And what about the SAE specifications?

The 85/90 weight Pennzoil marine is what I use in my outboard lower unit. What SAE codes are applicable for the banjo rear so I can check on the lube container to see if the same lube can be used in both the outboard and the differential?

[Bruce Lancaster]

I've always used parts store 140. I know NOTHING about modern synthetics and details of designations but suspect that anything available from a decent company is plenty.
Note that the banjo uses spiral cut gears, the reason for needing modern type EP and the reason Ford changed to the ancestral form of that in 1932, but it should be easier to keep happy than later rears whose hypoid construction (pinion not on center of ring) adds a lot more sliding stress.
There are rumors around about modern additives attacking brass, as in the trans synchros, but I have been told that is only an issue at very unlikely temperatuire levels...don't know anything first-hand on that but suspect it is just another scare like lead and zinc...help, help, the old car hobby is dead because new stuff will dissolve our engines!!

[rotorwrench]

Sulphurics will do some harm to phosphor bronze bushings over time if left to set there to mix with condensation and other factors. I don't think it really affects the brass blockers at all. Most folks baby there old cars and don't let them set in poor conditions for long periods anyway. They might set a long time but out in the weather is asking for a re-restoration of any kind of machinery. I've used GL-5 SAE 85W/140 in helicopter transmissions for years and have never seen any adverse effects on brass cages of bearings in there but I have seen entrapped moisture rot near through the magnesium lower sump housings. Magnesium is a whole different material than anything in an old Ford tranny.

Any oil is better than no oil in my book. Just something close to OEM recommendations in viscosity will do.

[1931 flamingo]

Boy, this is like a : "What kind of oil should I use?" thread.
Do you think every corner gas station that had a lube rack had a specific rear end oil for ford, gm, chrysler, pierce arrow, packard,etc?? And how many "kids" on the rack used one "joint" low, to the top, running out. The majority of the cars survived. Or what about the kid with ahort fingers or the kid with real loong finger joints. Me thinks some worry too much..............KISS JMO
Paul in CT

[David J]

Always figured full was when fluid drooled out of the hole . If you can touch fluid you should be OK . This is nothing more than safe operating range . Full is still full though & do you normally run stuff with lube levels on the danger mark ? Probably not .

Originally Posted by phartman

A simple question, but....



I understand the proper lube level is an inch or so below the hole, but how will I know how much to add?

Am I missing a simple answer here?

Thanks.

[phartman]

I checked the API service recommendation on the Pennzoil marine lube that I had on hand- 80/90 weight for lower units and stern drives. It is recommended for GL 5 service. The Pennzoil gear lube I bought yesterday is GL4 and GL5 service. What is the difference? Here is an excellent article from the Corvair club that goes into quite a bit of detail.

Some interesting notes from the article:

1) Follow the recommendations of your car manufacturer

2) Don't overdo it on the modern additives.

3) Be careful what you use in your transmission. It may not be the same as what is in your differential (I didn't know that).

Here's the article:

http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf

As far as the Mac's 600W Oil, there is no API rating on the container, and no indication what the application is intended for. It does, however, make an interesting note that many leaks are caused by overfilling of the differential or using the wrong lube. They indicate the rear should only be about 1/3rd full with gear lube.

I did check the recommendation in my 1937 Ford manual, and it is exactly what Bruce posted earlier. Nothing in the manual suggests anything remotely like 600 weight.

I'm doing what Bruce says. I drained the 600 and replaced with the 85/140 Pennzoil.

And for the record, when I examined the used Mac's 600 wt. lube, it had about 1200 miles on it. It looked perfectly normal, and nothing unusual showed up in the pan.

You'll have to make your own decision here.

[phartman]

And this thread from the VW community on GL4 vs. GL5 lubes. Wow, did I stumble into a hornet's nest. Sheesh. But the bottom line seems to be GL5 does not supercede GL4, and if the specs call for GL4, then use that.

So- at the risk of putting certain members here over the edge- the Ford Toploader transmission? GL4 or GL5? Same gear lube as in the rear end?

Here's the VW article:

http://www.westfalia.org/community/s...-transmissions

[rotorwrench]

The specs originally called for GL3 which is long ago gone. GL4 has a little more EP than the GL3 and is entended for light duty hypoid use. GL5 is for medium to heavy duty hypoid type use. The old GL3 was for gear to gear use or non-hypoid type differentials and mild EP for early transmissions with & without overdrive. The only way you can get close to GL3 is to buy GL1 lube & mix with GL4 lube but I know of no one who goes to this trouble. GL1 will work for older transmisions just fine but lacks the EP for the rear axle unless you have an old truck with a worm screw drive.

I wouldn't get worried at all about using GL4 for multi-purpose on the old transmissions & rear axles. GL5 should be OK too if you treat you car like a king and change fluids regularly.

[Bruce Lancaster]

Ford did add in another grade when Lincoln went to a hypoid axle. I happen to have a '46 service manual here: Regular Ford, "Mild EP gear oil to level of plug", 90 winter, 140 summer
Lincoln, hypoid gear oil, 90 EP, 80 when below 10 degrees.

[Old Henry]

Here's the lubrications chart for my '47 that says use 2 1/2 pints of S.A.E. 90 in the winter and S.A.E. 140 in the summer. That's what I do.

[Bruce Lancaster]

A note on all this...READ the blasted owner's manual before messing with stuff! Lots of information on this and other things, and if you don't have one repros are cheap.
By the way, using 600 is a widespread mistake, and can you show me ANY Ford manual calling for 600 even on A's? They call just for something like "good quality gear oil", and the EP stuff had not appeared yet...

[phartman]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

A note on all this...READ the blasted owner's manual before messing with stuff! Lots of information on this and other things, and if you don't have one repros are cheap.
By the way, using 600 is a widespread mistake, and can you show me ANY Ford manual calling for 600 even on A's? They call just for something like "good quality gear oil", and the EP stuff had not appeared yet...

My use of the 600 stuff, in retrospect, is a little puzzling. I used it because that's what an "expert" told me he used. But when I now go to research what it is, and what properties the 600 has, I am coming up short. Funny how this folklore about early Fords gets started.


Yup, go back and read the manuals. Excellent advice, duly noted.

[Straightpipes]

Well, Bruce, Looking thru books. I'm back to Fordson tractor manual 1923 calling for 600W in the rear/tranny.
Amusing that so many Ford guys rush to use MACs oil. Nothing wriong with it, mind you, as I myself used it for years. Only last year did I realize the I didn't need it. Thanks to the guys on the HAMB.
Come on over and visit at Hershey this year..

[31chevy]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I guess I opened a can of worms about the 600# Here is what it says in the 1931 publication of my chevy book.(A grease of the consistency of 600W should be used or a transmission oil which is sold by oil companies for that purpose.) & (The rear axle should be filled with oil the same consistency as used in the transmission). I will probably be using a more modern lubricant when it becomes time to change fluids. Please note that it says or.
Gary.

[Bruce Lancaster]

The change to EP and then on to the modern viscosities of that came along as Detroit switched to spiral gears from the spur gears of the Model T period...Ford went to spiral cut rear in '28, trans gears in '32, but I think '32 was the first Ford manual calling for EP.
Probably it took a lot of worn gears before the industry developed the special stuff... I wonder if all those TT worm gear rears would have held up better.
The EP qualities had to be jacked up again for hypoid rears as they had even more sliding contact than on-center spirals. At Ford, that meant Lincoln first.

[phartman]

Come to find out that when my tranny was rebuilt, the mechanic used 600wt in that too.

Any idea what the lube capacity is of a 3 speed 1948 toploader?

I'll be under the front of the truck changing that sometime this weekend. How many quarts do I need to get at the autoparts store??? I'm coming up with 2.75 quarts. Correct???

[Bassman/NZ]

600 is NOT 600wt. It's probably around 220wt or so. The 600 is not a weight designation, in fact no-one seems to know where the 600 designation came from. I've been told it was steam-cylinder oil, but I have no idea if that's correct.

[phartman]

Changed the trans and differential fluids to 85/140 wt. Got everything buttoned up. No leaks. Truck runs noticably quieter, much less gear noise, much easier to shift.

Thanks, fellas. You did good. Much appreciated.

[Step-down]

columbia rear axles are very spec. the weight to use...correct .... With a Columbia two speed added you use the plug on the Columbia correct different high .....

[mick in saratoga]

I was about to fill the transmission of my '40 with Valvoline 85-140W gear oil when I read the label, so I called the Valvoline Tech hotline. That product is not recommended for the transmission because of the damage it will do to brass/copper.

[Krylon32]

In the banjos or quick changes in our shop we use Winters Moly 80-90-140. Seems to work good with no problems.

[Drbrown]

I use GL4 85W-140W from Napa in all except I use straight 140W in my BW OD (as recommended by former BW mechanic). And yes, beware over-filling the diff.