The Ford Barn

Sly · 07-21-2015, 01:26 AM

Hi there,

I am looking for a solution to avoid boiling fuel at high temperatures or stop and go traffic.

Does anybody have changed impelemented a fuel pump with return in his Model A.

BR Stefan

Tom Wesenberg · 07-21-2015, 05:33 AM

Model A's don't have fuel pumps, but as long as I don't use crapahol gas I don't have any problems with gas boiling. Others report good results by adding a pint or quart of diesel to each 10 gallons of crap gas. You can also wrap the fuel line with insulating material, as well as build a heat shield to fit between the carb and manifold.

Sly · 07-21-2015, 06:28 AM

Thanks, but is crapahol gas?

Mitch//pa · 07-21-2015, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

Thanks, but is crapahol gas?

fuel with ethanol

Chris in CT · 07-21-2015, 08:56 AM

Hi Sly, I see you're in Germany. I don't know what the driving conditions are over there, or what the fuel mix (gasoline/alcohol) is, but I suggest that you try Tom's fix of insulating the fuel line before you go to a fuel pump. Many have successfully utilized this fix over here in the States.
If you go to a fuel pump, I'm pretty sure that you are going to have some trouble finding one in a six-volt configuration, but I don't suppose it is impossible. You will certainly want one which is low flow and low pressure. Your biggest problem will be fitting the return line. Unless you remove the tank and install a new bung into which the return line can be attached, you would have to use a closed loop system which returned the fuel to the fuel shutoff valve location.
Now, just for your information, I have done this on my own 29 roadster. Why? I am experimenting with a throttle-body fuel injector - just for fun. The return bung is under the fuel tank on the driver's side of the car. Let me assure you that this will be a lot of work, and you are best off by insulating the fuel line like Tom previously suggested. Happy Motoring!

CarlG · 07-21-2015, 11:13 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris in CT

...If you go to a fuel pump, I'm pretty sure that you are going to have some trouble finding one in a six-volt configuration, but I don't suppose it is impossible...

Snyder's shows both 6 & 12 volt fuel pumps in their catalog

Sly · 07-21-2015, 12:51 PM

Hi Chris,

I thought it would be much work with the return thing. I will surely not remove the tank, as I have fully restored the car last year.

I am already developing a heat shield betweeen carb and exhaust, I wil isolate the fuel line and put a bigger isolation between carb an intake manifold.

Let`s see what happens...

mshmodela · 07-21-2015, 02:47 PM

Ford model A's Fuel pump works much like a water tower --only smaller scale:

http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/pdf/dw/publi..._dwfsom147.pdf

PepeLoco · 07-21-2015, 08:17 PM

I struggled with vapor lock and finally resolved it with a very low pressure 2-4 PSI electric fuel pump. Another website recommended a Carter P60504DP (made in USA) because it does not need a return fuel line. I have had it on for several years. I was worried about having fuel over fill the carb and spray everywhere. Appears the pressure is to low. I registered 2 psi on mine. I hid it between the frame and splash pans.
BUT!!!!!!!!!!!! It is 12 volt. So you need to put a resistor inline to drop the voltage to 6.
The pump is $40 on amazon.com.
Good luck!
Pepe

Sly · 07-22-2015, 06:06 AM

..do you hace a carter or tilliston carb? I am using tilliston.

Mitch//pa · 07-22-2015, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PepeLoco

I struggled with vapor lock and finally resolved it with a very low pressure 2-4 PSI electric fuel pump. Another website recommended a Carter P60504DP (made in USA) because it does not need a return fuel line. I have had it on for several years. I was worried about having fuel over fill the carb and spray everywhere. Appears the pressure is to low. I registered 2 psi on mine. I hid it between the frame and splash pans.
BUT!!!!!!!!!!!! It is 12 volt. So you need to put a resistor inline to drop the voltage to 6.
The pump is $40 on amazon.com.
Good luck!
Pepe

you could just be compensating for a fuel flow issue....
and not vaporlock

BILL WILLIAMSON · 07-22-2015, 04:36 PM

I once found a 6 Volt electric pump @ CAR QUEST, they didn't know they had it. It was the same one the suppliers sell, BUT was CHEEPER! It "hides" inside the R/H frame rail & mounts on the center hood bumper bolt.
Bill W.

Tom Wesenberg · 07-22-2015, 08:54 PM

I've found that 12 volt electric pumps run just fine on 6 volts. In fact I have one on my 1950 Studebaker with 6 volt positive ground system, and I added a 3 ohm 50 watt resistor to slow the pump and drop the pressure. It works great.

But, as already mentioned, don't bother with an electric pump on the Model A with an updraft carb. Just insulate first and try it.

PepeLoco · 07-22-2015, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

..do you hace a carter or tilliston carb? I am using tilliston.

Tilliston
I have a Zenith and tried it for a while, but like the performance from teh Tilliston better.

PepeLoco · 07-22-2015, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

you could just be compensating for a fuel flow issue....
and not vaporlock

I know there are folks who don't believe in vapor lock or carb icing and I am not wanting to offend those folks. But I spent months and big $ trying to figure this out. Here's the thread where I posted the vapor lock actually happening using a clear tube after running hard.
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78312

Then another site recommended the carter, low psi, fuel pump. Even when it has been close to 100 degrees and running it in city traffic, she purrs like kitten.
Pepe

Mitch//pa · 07-23-2015, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PepeLoco

I know there are folks who don't believe in vapor lock or carb icing and I am not wanting to offend those folks. But I spent months and big $ trying to figure this out. Here's the thread where I posted the vapor lock actually happening using a clear tube after running hard.
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78312

Then another site recommended the carter, low psi, fuel pump. Even when it has been close to 100 degrees and running it in city traffic, she purrs like kitten.
Pepe

Oh the ole aquarium hose trick ,,I remember that one

I'm not saying there is no such thing as vapor lock, but there are other things that can cause fuel related issues on a stock model A.. Most just chalk it up to vapor lock. There are a hell of a lot of A's out there running fine without fuel pumps.
Heck how many times have we seen ignition issues blamed on vapor lock. Hey your car is running good now that's what matters

Jim Brierley · 07-23-2015, 12:22 PM

I use electric pumps and shut them off before parking the car, this allows the pressure to subside. Residual pressure in the line is often what cause boiling and hard starting when the engine is hot.

07-21-2015, 01:26 AM	#1
Sly Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 56	Fuel pump with fuel return circle at 1928? Hi there, I am looking for a solution to avoid boiling fuel at high temperatures or stop and go traffic. Does anybody have changed impelemented a fuel pump with return in his Model A. BR Stefan

07-21-2015, 05:33 AM	#2
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Fuel pump with fuel return circle at 1928? Model A's don't have fuel pumps, but as long as I don't use crapahol gas I don't have any problems with gas boiling. Others report good results by adding a pint or quart of diesel to each 10 gallons of crap gas. You can also wrap the fuel line with insulating material, as well as build a heat shield to fit between the carb and manifold.

07-21-2015, 06:28 AM	#3
Sly Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 56	Re: Fuel pump with fuel return circle at 1928? Thanks, but is crapahol gas?

07-21-2015, 08:56 AM	#5
Chris in CT Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Connecticut Posts: 272	Re: Fuel pump with fuel return circle at 1928? Hi Sly, I see you're in Germany. I don't know what the driving conditions are over there, or what the fuel mix (gasoline/alcohol) is, but I suggest that you try Tom's fix of insulating the fuel line before you go to a fuel pump. Many have successfully utilized this fix over here in the States. If you go to a fuel pump, I'm pretty sure that you are going to have some trouble finding one in a six-volt configuration, but I don't suppose it is impossible. You will certainly want one which is low flow and low pressure. Your biggest problem will be fitting the return line. Unless you remove the tank and install a new bung into which the return line can be attached, you would have to use a closed loop system which returned the fuel to the fuel shutoff valve location. Now, just for your information, I have done this on my own 29 roadster. Why? I am experimenting with a throttle-body fuel injector - just for fun. The return bung is under the fuel tank on the driver's side of the car. Let me assure you that this will be a lot of work, and you are best off by insulating the fuel line like Tom previously suggested. Happy Motoring!

07-21-2015, 12:51 PM	#7
Sly Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 56	Re: Fuel pump with fuel return circle at 1928? Hi Chris, I thought it would be much work with the return thing. I will surely not remove the tank, as I have fully restored the car last year. I am already developing a heat shield betweeen carb and exhaust, I wil isolate the fuel line and put a bigger isolation between carb an intake manifold. Let`s see what happens...

07-21-2015, 02:47 PM	#8
mshmodela Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,763	Re: Fuel pump with fuel return circle at 1928? Ford model A's Fuel pump works much like a water tower --only smaller scale: http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/pdf/dw/publi..._dwfsom147.pdf __________________ -Mike Late 31' Ford Model A Tudor, Miss Daisy I don't work on cars --I'm learning about my Model A. Cleveland, Ohio

07-21-2015, 08:17 PM	#9
PepeLoco Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Austin Posts: 118	Re: Fuel pump with fuel return circle at 1928? I struggled with vapor lock and finally resolved it with a very low pressure 2-4 PSI electric fuel pump. Another website recommended a Carter P60504DP (made in USA) because it does not need a return fuel line. I have had it on for several years. I was worried about having fuel over fill the carb and spray everywhere. Appears the pressure is to low. I registered 2 psi on mine. I hid it between the frame and splash pans. BUT!!!!!!!!!!!! It is 12 volt. So you need to put a resistor inline to drop the voltage to 6. The pump is $40 on amazon.com. Good luck! Pepe

07-22-2015, 06:06 AM	#10
Sly Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 56	Re: Fuel pump with fuel return circle at 1928? ..do you hace a carter or tilliston carb? I am using tilliston.

07-22-2015, 04:36 PM	#12
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Fuel pump with fuel return circle at 1928? I once found a 6 Volt electric pump @ CAR QUEST, they didn't know they had it. It was the same one the suppliers sell, BUT was CHEEPER! It "hides" inside the R/H frame rail & mounts on the center hood bumper bolt. Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

07-22-2015, 08:54 PM	#13
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Fuel pump with fuel return circle at 1928? I've found that 12 volt electric pumps run just fine on 6 volts. In fact I have one on my 1950 Studebaker with 6 volt positive ground system, and I added a 3 ohm 50 watt resistor to slow the pump and drop the pressure. It works great. But, as already mentioned, don't bother with an electric pump on the Model A with an updraft carb. Just insulate first and try it.

07-23-2015, 12:22 PM	#17
Jim Brierley Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 4,087	Re: Fuel pump with fuel return circle at 1928? I use electric pumps and shut them off before parking the car, this allows the pressure to subside. Residual pressure in the line is often what cause boiling and hard starting when the engine is hot.