Cluster bearing solution?

[Ordsgt]

As far as the transmission main shaft Ball bearings I found the Chinese manufactured bearings were about $12 each. American made Federal or Timken were about $35 each. No record of American bearing failure in Model A trans that I could find but many with the Chinese. Sometimes the money you think you are saving is not worth the risk

[Joe K]

Sometimes the money you think you are saving is not worth the risk Sometimes the money you think you are saving is not worth the risk

For years Briggs & Stratton has made the 8 HP "F-head" horizontal shaft motor. Applied to pumps, chipper/shredders, rototillers, generators world wide.

Now - with our "new" economy - Briggs & Stratton is now "outsourcing" many parts of the F-head engines. You buy B&S replacement and more than likely the part is made in China.

The Chinese are smart. When you sign on to them, you also sign over rights to your design. Thus the Chinese are made free to compete against the American sourced product and frequently on the same marketplace.

You go on Ebay and you'll find two levels of carburetor for this 8 HP B&S. Either "original" probably in a B&S box for about $87, or the "Chinese clone" for about $12 - shipping included.

I've gone both ways. The B&S version ALWAYS performs as it should. The Chinese version may or may not perform. I remember finding one of the Chinese clones with the main jet adjustment TOTALLY missed the internal port hole. The Chinese quality is just not there and there is no telling the "jet variants" they include with your "destination application unknown" carburetor.

VW gets about $90 for their ABS sensor. The Chinese clone about $14. The two are IDENTICAL except the VW version has "four circles." You can see where the four circles have been "scrubbed out" on the Chinese version. Same device made in the same factory.
Maybe.

OBTW, there are more VWs on the road in China than the rest of the world combined.

Joe K

[RDVAARK]

About a year ago,I approached a local bearing manufacturer (in New Milford,Ct.) about making new bearings.
After a long informative conversation, the third generation owner said "You mean like these?"and pulled two roller bearings from his desk drawer- one correct that he had as a prototype, and one NOS. First price quoted:$135.00 each. First quantity price break would come in on 100 units, at $90.00. He said there currently wasn't enough demand at that time. His company can be found with a little research, but why ask over and over? Someone. somewhere, has already started the ball (roller) rolling.
Meanwhile, pursuing the crossover part numbers, I found many many applications for these bearings. Looking at suppliers and collectors catering to the specific collectible applications, I found several that had NOSIB (in box), in stock. Hint: Land Rover, in England, NOSIB, script marked, OLD OEM, $12-$35 dollars. Another hint: Binder World, a magazine catering to IH trucks, has several suppliers advertising in it. The Studebaker club, ditto. Do your own looking in this 'vein' something may turn up.
Another note, original Ford cluster gears (maybe not all, and there may be repros) have a straight bore through the cluster suitable for supporting three bearings in a row. A well known new manufacture has an increased diameter space in the center of that bore, not suitable for a bearing. Please check for yourself, judge for yourself, act accordingly.
I hope for your satisfaction.

[BillCNC]

To those that had them fail, ... is it going to damage the shaft and cluster gear, or mostly just the shaft?

Regards
Bill

[Joe K]

My single observed failure took out the bearing (broken needle - seemingly a sort of "torque" failure of the needle itself) which the loose piece in turn scored up the shaft only. The interior rolling surface of the cluster seemed ok.

Your mileage (and failure) may vary.

I have seen shafts of varying hardness. This I learned by doing the "o-ring" modification at each end of the cluster shaft (which obviates the need for the "leak-pruf" kit/cover.) Some shaft are so hard you can't cut it in a lathe with high speed tool, others machine easily with a standard tool.

The last (and possibly the best) of these done was done on a glass hard shaft by bringing it in to the power plant and having the machinist use his "tool post grinder" with a narrow wheel to make the grooves. This shaft was SO hard even carbide tool wouldn't touch it on my lathe.

Shaft hardness may make a difference in the degree of scoring or even its liability to score.

Joe K

[ursus]

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Any discussion of cluster gear bearings needs to be inclusive of the input shaft bearing as it is identical to one of the bearings that is interior to the cluster. I have disassembled at least a dozen failed transmissions and most involved a failure of the bearing inside the input shaft and this typically resulted in such severe scoring of the input and main shafts that they were no longer usable.

The use of a bronze bushing inside of the moderately scored input shaft would permit its continued use where such would not be viable with a roller bearing. I have several input shafts that are in excellent shape except for having scored bearing pockets on the inboard end. I would be interested in any reports of successful use of a bronze sleeve bearing in this location.

[Dino's A]

For bronze bearings to work very well, the cluster should have a hole
drilled on it to assist oil entering inside. Does the model A cluster gear
have this? I can't remember.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Dino's A

For bronze bearings to work very well, the cluster should have a hole
drilled on it to assist oil entering inside. Does the model A cluster gear
have this? I can't remember.

"Cleavite" type bushing? Oil/Graphite impregnated will help too.

Actually straight cast iron was used extensively in pre Model A era as a machine bearing. When lubricated copiously the hardness of the iron combined with the porous graphite matrix is quite friction free and long wearing.

One again thinks of that "glass hard" cluster gear shaft of my experience.

Joe K

[RDVAARK]

Brass, Clevite, and Oilite bearings can work. There two things to keep in mind.
The cluster is always turning when the input shaft is turning. In a low mileage/use car it might be OK.It WILL need good lube. I haven't seen a cluster gear with ready made oil holes. The new manufacture ( might as well say MARK, I've no complaints with them at all) reverse idler I used needed an oil hole added because of the particular year gearcase I used. So I succeeded in drilling one--- after a lo-o-o-ngtime. I used a carbide center drill,and a succession of good quality carbide machine shop grade drills, in a good Bridgeport miller. Tough material. I suspect a cluster will be pretty hard too, either old original or aftermarket.
Second point: There's always been talk about Gear Oil, GL5,GL4, Hypoid, Walmart 90W, molybdenum disulfide additives etc, being or not being compatible with brass. I have learned since 1962, that sulfur does attack brass , in gearboxes, differentials, crankcases, reduction gears,race cars, motorcycles, one lungers,boats, ANYTHING. Be careful where you use brass or its alloys, and what you lube it with. Machining brass actually requires a 'brass oil', no sulfur, usually clear -not dark and murky. Brass machined with sulfur oil degrades really quickly. Also shiny brass turns dark(oooh, patina!)
I redid a Model A trans in 1970. From Joblot in NY, I bought all script Ford gears, NOS shafts and real US bearings, all Canadian Army surplus, in original boxes and cosmoline. It was a perfect,happy, box.I ran it a couple thousand miles and mothballed the car; used it occasionally until 2010. The clutch was stuck, I was painting the frame. While the box was out, I looked inside, a couple of the big outer bearings had condensation pitting.
So I went to my old trusted supplier,still in business, owned by the same family. (Yeah, TRUST US!) Bearings were So cheap! So I redid them all.
After 300-500 miles trans noises appeared. It leaped (never mind jumped)out of second. As the input and cluster bearings failed, the gears cocked, and the whole box was junk. Sharpest teeth I ever saw. Bearings visually looked like poop,no doubt.
I know- we all love that vendor. Buyer beware. YMMV. All that . I know, You never had a problem. Cost of doing business. It was my fault after forty years in metalworking, mechanical and professional restoration trades.
Rant Rant.
Hey, have a nice holiday.

[Benson]

Originally Posted by BillCNC

To those that had them fail, ... is it going to damage the shaft and cluster gear, or mostly just the shaft?

Regards
Bill

The worst one I saw was in my Coupe. Steve Becker at Berts said that it was the loudest 2nd gear that he had ever heard.


I rebuilt it in mid 80's with all new Mark gears and bearings.


The bearing that failed ( as in it came apart) was at the front of cluster.


Although the other bearings were damaged just not as bad.


Then the cluster gear started "flopping around" and noise got louder.


When I tore it down the second / third slider gear was badly damaged on its contact surfaces and the matching areas on 2nd gear of cluster were damaged also.

The new gears were destroyed!

The longer I drove it ... the louder noise got.



I think that I might have been able to save the gears if I had STOPPED driving it when noise first started.

[katy]

Originally Posted by Dino's A

It's been reported that the new roller cluster bearings are inferior
in quality and seem to fail prematurely.

Has anyone switched over to bronze bushings instead?
My jeep uses 2 bronze bushings with the spacer in between.

I'm not a big fan of bushings, but they do work, and have worked
in many transmissions of the early '40's

Possible?

What about cast iron bushings? Would be worth a try if available

[Synchro909]

As has been said, the gears would be very hard. Electric spark erosion would do it but it is not cheap and it is slow. On the other hand, how often would you need to do it.
I'm not game to make a recommendation or otherwise on the suitability of a bronze bearing.

[Oldcarbearings]

I DON'T understand nor can fathom as to WHY DON'T ALL of the FORD parts specialist/ vendors get together/pool there resources &approach RBC (Roller Bearing Company of America) to re-tool or re-make B7118&B7121?,
Surely there's enough of them/you to make this happen?,
Here in OZ i/ can't procure/source/supply ANY USA made B7118&B7121,
I recently supplied a well known FORD parts specialist here in Victoria Australia with our last remainig stock &another 3pcs, ALL of our bearing company suppliers can ONLY supply chinese made KOBE or if they can procure/source&supply from overseas our costs are between $103-108 AUD EACH!!!!! for both B7118&B7121 SIGH !!!!!.

[redmodelt]

Originally Posted by Flathead

Chevrolet used bushings, nuff said.

I was going to suggest that too. Dodge Brother also used bushings up until about 1923. Or just install a new shaft and reuse the old roller bearings. How much do you plan on driving it, bushing or reused bearings on new shaft would last for many many years.

[Bob C]

I think Snyder's is having good bearings manufactured, give them a call.

[Bill G]

I received new bearings from Snyders. Here is a link to a short video of how it looks. Not sure if you can see, but each roller does have its own axle. Not the dimpled things of before. Time will tell, eh?

https://youtube.com/shorts/CkXjQigtyRc?feature=share

[dennis lumbert]

Originally Posted by Bill G

I received new bearings from Snyders. Here is a link to a short video of how it looks. Not sure if you can see, but each roller does have its own axle. Not the dimpled things of before. Time will tell, eh?

https://youtube.com/shorts/CkXjQigtyRc?feature=share

I would drag a sharp file across the edge of the end cages ,if the file does not remove any metal but bounces over them they may be hardened enough to hold up in service.If the file removes metal I wouldn’t use them because the rollers will wear out the end cage holes and come apart from my experiance.I had this happen with a repo drive shaft bearing. .

[Dino's A]

Originally Posted by Bill G

I received new bearings from Snyders. Here is a link to a short video of how it looks. Not sure if you can see, but each roller does have its own axle. Not the dimpled things of before. Time will tell, eh?

https://youtube.com/shorts/CkXjQigtyRc?feature=share

I wish those pins would of fit a little bit better than the slop
they have when you roll them. Or is that normal?

[Oldcarbearings]

Berliss USA roller bearing company are getting B7118&B7121 made in china,
I'd hasten to add that the Synders are either KOBE chinese or BERLISS chinese made.One of our suppliers can supply ex overseas in UK made&USA HYATT&BOWER BUT the $ is prohibitive for us to sell direct to you the restorers,
I'm assuming that there's not enough demand or interest in the USA roller bearing companies to manufactuer them anymore?.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Dino's A

I wish those pins would of fit a little bit better than the slop
they have when you roll them. Or is that normal?

I believe that is normal. As it is with the Hyatt spring type equivalent.

Joe K