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Old 11-21-2018, 08:46 AM   #1
ryanheacox
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Default Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

Just finished buttoning up my Fordor after putting in a new engine and would like to put some miles on it before putting it away for the winter.

I have a 160 degree thermostat that goes in the upper radiator hose but took it out last year seeing no benefit during summer driving.

Now that it's cold (and going to get much colder) I imagine that the t-stat would become more beneficial. My only concern is that since it's located in the top of the upper hose (instead of the head like a modern car) and the air temps are very cold, it could take too long to open or not open at all thus causing more damage than running too cold.

I'm probably overthinking this. My gut says it'll probably be fine either way but I'd like to hear from people with firsthand experience. Thanks.
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Old 11-21-2018, 09:11 AM   #2
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

Run a thermostat ALL the time. Live in the mountains of Arizona. We probably do not get as cold as you in the winter, but the A warms up faster with the thermostat and runs better when warm.
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Old 11-21-2018, 09:56 AM   #3
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

If you have an upper coolant neck temp gauge, could partially block the radiator with a piece of cardboard.
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Old 11-21-2018, 10:27 AM   #4
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

I did think about using a piece of cardboard but I only have a motometer which is to say I really have nothing . I think I'll put in the thermostat and try it out.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:03 AM   #5
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

Partially blocking the radiator with something (cardboard, thin pressboard, etc.) is the way to go. Block about 1/2 of it. If it seems to run too hot, trim it down to only block the bottom 1/3rd. Don't over think it. It will be fine.

When you block the radiator, it allows coolant to circulate well through the block while the engine warms up, to help keep the temperatures in the block more uniform. It will take longer for everything to get fully warmed up, but eventually it will get there.

A closed thermostat in the upper hose really stops coolant from moving in the engine block. Those small vent holes that they have added to the thermostat do not let much coolant flow through the block while it is warming up, so the water is stagnant while heating up. This puts a lot of thermal stress on the block, head, and head gasket.

Then the thermostat opens and a rush of cold water comes into the hot block from the radiator. More thermal stress. The warm water hits the thermostat and it partially closes again. You get these cycles of hot and cold water in the block until the coolant temperature is stable in the block and the radiator (similar to the partially covered radiator).

If you really want to use a thermostat, you need to add a bypass hose between the upper outlet hose, on the engine side of the thermostat, and the water inlet on the side of the engine. I used a 5/8" heater hose. This lets coolant circulate through the block while it warms up with the thermostat closed.

Once the thermostat starts to open, some of the hot water goes into the radiator, but most of it goes back in the inlet side of the engine. The engine warm up is fairly fast and very smooth -- no big temperature swings up and down. Much less thermal stress.

I have a temperature gauge installed in the water outlet and I can watch the coolant temperature go up nice and smoothly.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:09 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim/TX/GA View Post
Partially blocking the radiator with something (cardboard, thin pressboard, etc.) is the way to go. Block about 1/2 of it. If it seems to run too hot, trim it down to only block the bottom 1/3rd. Don't over think it. It will be fine.

When you block the radiator, it allows coolant to circulate well through the block while the engine warms up, to help keep the temperatures in the block more uniform. It will take longer for everything to get fully warmed up, but eventually it will get there.

A closed thermostat in the upper hose really stops coolant from moving in the engine block. Those small vent holes that they have added to the thermostat do not let much coolant flow through the block while it is warming up, so the water is stagnant while heating up. This puts a lot of thermal stress on the block, head, and head gasket.

Then the thermostat opens and a rush of cold water comes into the hot block from the radiator. More thermal stress. The warm water hits the thermostat and it partially closes again. You get these cycles of hot and cold water in the block until the coolant temperature is stable in the block and the radiator (similar to the partially covered radiator).

If you really want to use a thermostat, you need to add a bypass hose between the upper outlet hose, on the engine side of the thermostat, and the water inlet on the side of the engine. I used a 5/8" heater hose. This lets coolant circulate through the block while it warms up with the thermostat closed.

Once the thermostat starts to open, some of the hot water goes into the radiator, but most of it goes back in the inlet side of the engine. The engine warm up is fairly fast and very smooth -- no big temperature swings up and down. Much less thermal stress.

I have a temperature gauge installed in the water outlet and I can watch the coolant temperature go up nice and smoothly.

Hi Jim,
Any chance you can post a picture of your motor showing the above? Am considering converting my A to thermostat next year once my cooling issues are resolved.


Thanks
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:28 AM   #7
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

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Hi Jim,
Any chance you can post a picture of your motor showing the above? Am considering converting my A to thermostat next year once my cooling issues are resolved.


Thanks
Sure, but it will be a while.

Out of town.

.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:31 AM   #8
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

Well Jim, you just confirmed everything I've been thinking and brought up some other important info. I had thought about the thermal shock when the thermostat opened but not the stress on the engine due to no coolant flow before it opens.

I do like the cardboard idea, follows the kiss principle nicely. Planning to take it out tomorrow for thanksgiving. Supposed to be a high of 17 in our area
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:17 PM   #9
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

I initially put a thermostat at the top of the radiator hose and as you fear, it was slow to or did not open. Moved it to the bottom of the hose, hold it in place with a hose clamp and it works fine. The stat opens gradually as the water heats up.
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Old 11-21-2018, 01:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

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I initially put a thermostat at the top of the radiator hose and as you fear, it was slow to or did not open. Moved it to the bottom of the hose, hold it in place with a hose clamp and it works fine. The stat opens gradually as the water heats up.
Yes, getting the thermostat as close to the engine as possible really helps it open before the engine gets too hot. But the coolant is still stagnant in the block until the thermostat does open, which I don't think is good for the engine. (Modern engines have bypassed the thermostat like this since they were introduced in the mid- to late-30s.) .

I'm sure there are many dozens of guys that have driven thousands of miles with the thermostat near the block and with no bypass hose, and had no problem. They are lucky. I'll bet there are others that have experienced head gasket failure and never thought that it might be caused by that thermostat...

YMMV.

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Old 11-21-2018, 01:25 PM   #11
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

I would agree that if you use a thermostat you should also use a bypass hose. Like Jim said, thats the way auto makers have done it since they started using thermostats and theres a reason they do it that way.
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Old 11-21-2018, 01:37 PM   #12
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

I run a 180 thermostat all year. I drilled a hole in it to allow a small bypass during warm-up. It really wasn't necessary, if you put your thermostat in a pan of water and watch it as it heats it does open slowly. I used to use the cardboard trick but it was hard to regulate.
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Old 11-21-2018, 02:55 PM   #13
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

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I run a 180 thermostat all year. I drilled a hole in it to allow a small bypass during warm-up. It really wasn't necessary, if you put your thermostat in a pan of water and watch it as it heats it does open slowly. I used to use the cardboard trick but it was hard to regulate.
I run a 160 deg T'stat in one of my cars and a 180 deg in another. With both, especially the 180, I have noticed the temperature swings Jim mentioned even though I have drilled another 2 X 1/8" holes in it. I see the sense in the bypass hose but I like to keep my engine bay looking resonably original. The T'stat is invisible and the hose not so I wonder about drilling more holes in it.
Your thoughts?
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Old 11-21-2018, 03:06 PM   #14
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

Synchro, Jim says he uses a 5/8" heater hose as a bypass so if you drill 3 more 1/8" holes you would have the equivalent of one 5/8" hole.

How well this works in practice is another matter but it would be interesting to see.
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Old 11-21-2018, 04:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

Would the swings in temperature of water be relative to the ambient air temp. which affects the start up water temp? Maybe not so much swing in Florida winter weather and more swing in say a Main winter. Just asking!
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Old 11-21-2018, 04:32 PM   #16
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

https://vintageprecision.com/product...ing/index.html

Jim, purchased one of these. Could you run a hose out of one of the lower plugs?
Have been using cardboard but not the best in cold rain,snow.
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Old 11-21-2018, 04:32 PM   #17
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

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Originally Posted by ryanheacox View Post
Synchro, Jim says he uses a 5/8" heater hose as a bypass so if you drill 3 more 1/8" holes you would have the equivalent of one 5/8" hole.

How well this works in practice is another matter but it would be interesting to see.
Ryan, I now have 3X 1/8 holes. I am wondering about significantly more, maybe 6, 8 or maybe 10. I doubt I would ever end up with as much bypass this way as Jim's 5/8 hose. For that, I'd need 25 X 1/8" holes. There would not be much T'stat left if I did that!
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Old 11-21-2018, 05:35 PM   #18
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

I've posted this before, but using the Vintage Precision thermostat housing with a 160 degree thermostat and an added bypass tube, you eliminate the hot spots in the engine that are created when the thermostat is closed during warmup.
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Old 11-21-2018, 05:37 PM   #19
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

Didn't add the photo attachment.
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Old 11-21-2018, 05:59 PM   #20
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

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Ryan, I now have 3X 1/8 holes. I am wondering about significantly more, maybe 6, 8 or maybe 10. I doubt I would ever end up with as much bypass this way as Jim's 5/8 hose. For that, I'd need 25 X 1/8" holes. There would not be much T'stat left if I did that!
Riiiight 5x diameter does not equal 5x surface area
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Old 11-21-2018, 06:01 PM   #21
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

Nice looking setup Al. After the engine heats up I wonder how much HOT water is bypassing the radiator to the rear cylinder with cooled water entering the middle of the block. Just thinking out loud.
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Old 11-21-2018, 06:02 PM   #22
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Didn't add the photo attachment.
I really like the look of that
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Old 11-21-2018, 06:31 PM   #23
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

My thinking is only about 5% of the hot water exiting the top of the engine goes through that 3/8" bypass tube when the thermostat is open. The 1 1/2" top radiator hose drops the pressure at the thermostat to nearly zero.
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Old 11-21-2018, 06:49 PM   #24
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davew View Post
https://vintageprecision.com/product...ing/index.html

Jim, purchased one of these. Could you run a hose out of one of the lower plugs?
Have been using cardboard but not the best in cold rain,snow.

Yes, taking hot coolant out of one of those ports will work.

I switched to thin masonite instead of cardboard after my first rain storm. Cardboard kind of falls apart.

Back in the Model A era they sold a radiator cover made of vinyl with several snaps that could be used to hold two flaps open with different opening sizes. So you could get out and adjust as required while out driving. I have only seen pictures, never seen one in real life. I might try to make one. I think my wife could sew it up if I design the pattern. Maybe use velcro instead snaps.
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Old 11-21-2018, 07:33 PM   #25
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

FWIW

Here is a winter photo of our 1931 68b with a card board winter front on a New Year’s Day tour, 1/1/2017. I use water with a water pump lubricant and rust inhibitor, 160 degree thermostat, warm engine up in drive way before traveling. Have done this for years with no problems. One year it was 16 degrees for the New Year’s Day tour. Car is stored in a heated garage.
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Old 11-21-2018, 07:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

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Just my experience on this subject...

I put a T-stat in my Model A recently. Only because the water pump continued to push water out the overflow tube...nail or no nail. Tom had suggested the T-stat to correct this and it did. Thanks, Tom!

I was all over the engine with my laser thermometer for the first start ups and drives to see how and where it was warming up and to insure there were no hot spots. I noted nothing unusual. Quite even warming on all parts of the block and head, and faster warm up than without the T-stat. The holes in the T-stat housing do let a noticeable amount of warm water through.

My other two collector cars are an MGB with a 3.5 Rover aluminum V8 and a 914 Porsche with a small block Chevy V8. Both have T-stats and no bypass tubes. No cabin heaters. Both cars warm up smoothly on the temp gauges. No cooling problems on either. The Porsche is a mid engine car with the rad in the front. I can feel the top hose at the rad getting warm long before the T-stat opens. The small holes in the T-stat housing pass a lot of water.

I've owned several 50's and 60's cars with T-stats and without bypass tubes. The only ones that would come close to having a bypass tube would be those with cabin heaters and then only when the heater was on. All worked fine.

I'm thinking that if blocking the rad and not having a T-stat was a preferred method, we'd be using the same method today. I also can't think of a newish car that has a bypass tube (unless you count those with heaters with the heater always on).

Again, this is only my experience. But based on it, I would not over think or over engineer this issue. If there is any data other than just our anecdotal evidence or opinions, I could easily change my mind.
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Old 11-21-2018, 07:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

Like the vinyl cover idea. Probably look ok also
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Old 11-21-2018, 08:59 PM   #28
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<snip>

I've owned several 50's and 60's cars with T-stats and without bypass tubes. The only ones that would come close to having a bypass tube would be those with cabin heaters and then only when the heater was on. All worked fine.
Actually, I would bet that some form of bypass was there, if there was a thermostat in the water outlet; you might not have been aware of it, but it was there. Yes, the heater core counts as bypass if there is no valve on the hot water line. My 1980 F-150 was like that.


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I'm thinking that if blocking the rad and not having a T-stat was a preferred method, we'd be using the same method today. I also can't think of a newish car that has a bypass tube (unless you count those with heaters with the heater always on).
Having a thermostat is preferred, for faster warm up (less air pollution). The modern style thermostat with the wax pellets in it was not invented until 1934, so did not show up in cars until then and after. My '41 Chrysler had one of these thermostats, and it had a very short bypass hose between the top of the water pump and the thermostat housing.

My '50 Buick had something similar (hose was about 1 inch long).

By the time GM got to my '63 Buick, they had a cast piece of metal and an o-ring on the thermostat housing that pressed down into the water pump housing to bypass coolant when the thermostat is closed. There is no hose. That is common today on all modern engines -- bypass is built in, no hose. But the bypass is still there.

Quote:
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Again, this is only my experience. But based on it, I would not over think or over engineer this issue. If there is any data other than just our anecdotal evidence or opinions, I could easily change my mind.
Before the thermostat was available that went in the coolant outlet, high-end cars (not Ford) had movable louver shutters that mounted in front of the radiator. A bi-metallic element on the radiator upper tank pulled the louvers open when the engine warmed and then closed them again when it cooled. So it was automatic (and looked cool).

On my S/W Town Sedan, with a 160* thermostat and the valve in my bypass line closed (so no bypass) I can watch the coolant outlet temperature swing fairly wildly between hot and cold from cold start up and initial drive, until it settles down. That's real data in my book.

The thermostat in this car is not close to the water pump, it's up closer to the radiator neck. I suppose moving the thermostat closer to the water pump would lessen the swings. For other reasons, that would not be easy for me to do on this car.

I would not over think it either. Just block the bottom 1/3rd of the radiator and go drive your car! Have fun!
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Old 11-21-2018, 09:35 PM   #29
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

Think I've seen the method used in the previous picture before. But I believe you have to drill/tap a hole in the back of the motor block (cylinder 4) for the bypass line?


Still looking forward to a picture of Jim's setup, when he has time. From his description drilling/tapping is not needed.
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Old 11-22-2018, 02:42 AM   #30
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

I use a 180 thermostat all the time, and it has a couple 1/8" holes to allow the hot antifreeze to pass by the wax pellet. I also have a 5/8" bypass hose for engine coolant circulation. This hose will later pass through my heater core for cabin heat. This works great.
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Old 11-22-2018, 10:03 AM   #31
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I use a 180 thermostat all the time, and it has a couple 1/8" holes to allow the hot antifreeze to pass by the wax pellet. I also have a 5/8" bypass hose for engine coolant circulation. This hose will later pass through my heater core for cabin heat. This works great.
Did you fabricate the bypass hose fittings into the upper neck and lower block necks? Or are they commercially available?
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Old 11-22-2018, 12:06 PM   #32
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

Good Morning all...I run a cloth napkin held on the light bar by two safety pins. It covers about 1/4 of the radiator. Seems to work great. Any upholstery shop could make one out of leather and put two snaps on it to hold it to the light bar. Simple is better in my humble opinion. A motor meter with a thermometer in it helps a lot...Have a great Model 'A' Day. Ernie in Arizona
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Old 11-22-2018, 06:22 PM   #33
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

I've seen those vinyl (or maybe leather) covers on Model T snowmobiles on youtube. I like the look of them too.

I used a piece of cardboard that covered a little less than half the radiator today and it seemed to work great. The motometer never showed any red (it doesn't in the summer either, only when pulling a long hill). If I end up doing a fair amount of cold weather driving I think I'll have a radiator cover made up.

On another note, the new engine seems to love the cold. Went to start it to go home after sitting for 5 hours at 14 degrees and it didn't even crank once before it started.
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Old 11-22-2018, 08:34 PM   #34
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Did you fabricate the bypass hose fittings into the upper neck and lower block necks? Or are they commercially available?
I found the inlet casting at a swap meet, and drilled and tapped the outlet.
I went to a plumbing store to borrow their pipe tap.
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Old 11-22-2018, 09:49 PM   #35
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

I don't have to worry about cold weather driving here in Minnesota, there is so much salt on the roads by the time it is cold here that only a fool would run any car they loved on them. Can't fix salt rot.
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Old 11-22-2018, 10:40 PM   #36
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I don't have to worry about cold weather driving here in Minnesota, there is so much salt on the roads by the time it is cold here that only a fool would run any car they loved on them. Can't fix salt rot.
For sure!
The roads and ground water are polluted with road salt before the first snow even falls. It sure cuts into driving time for our antique cars, let alone the safety issue of rusted fuel and brake lines on modern cars.
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:01 AM   #37
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

That is what I do in the fall, when the temperature drops, then in the spring, when the weather starts to be warmer, I remove the cardboard. Easier than messing with a thermostat. (PS: I do paint the cardboard BLACK!)
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Old 11-23-2018, 11:52 AM   #38
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

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Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU View Post
Think I've seen the method used in the previous picture before. But I believe you have to drill/tap a hole in the back of the motor block (cylinder 4) for the bypass line?


Still looking forward to a picture of Jim's setup, when he has time. From his description drilling/tapping is not needed.


Did another search and want to verify. I found a post that seems to indicate that the hole is present and tapped in the back of the block for a heater hose connection?
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Old 11-23-2018, 02:30 PM   #39
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

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Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU View Post
Did another search and want to verify. I found a post that seems to indicate that the hole is present and tapped in the back of the block for a heater hose connection?

That is ONE option to run the water back to the engine from the heater core.

The OTHER option is to tap into the water inlet on the side of he engine. You can find these inlets with the hole drilled and tapped at flea markets up north. They were very popular. I prefer this option because it is so easily reversible.

The Model A parts guys sell these inlet castings with a heater/temp gauge port new, but they ask crazy money for them. Look at a Swap Meet.
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Old 11-24-2018, 05:23 PM   #40
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

I always thought those tiny holes in the thermostat could pose a problem, so years ago I took my trusty Harbor Freight tapered step drill to the holes and have two .250" holes in my thermostats.

I measured the inside of the "barb" for a 5/8 heater hose and it measured .430.

The area of a circle is 3.14 X radius squared.
I ran into a problem squaring numbers less than 1 so am not sure how my [2].250 holes compare with a single .430 orifice. I guess I should have paid more attention to Mr. Redford in math class.

I do know that my cars do fine in all types of weather with my modified 160* thermostats.
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Old 11-24-2018, 10:58 PM   #41
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

The two 1/4 inch diameter, (r=0.125) holes have a total area of .098 SQ IN
The one 0.43 inch diameter hose (r=0.215) has an area of 0.145 SQ IN


So the 0.43 hose has about a 50% larger opening than the two 1/4 inch openings


https://www.bing.com/search?q=area+o...24c4f823d08781
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Old 11-28-2018, 11:55 AM   #42
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

The commercial 'stat housing has bypass holes machined into it. In my prior arrangements, I supplemented with two 1/8" drilled holes. Also, have heater hose for bypass (without metering valve, but with shutoff valve for summer use). Years ago, used cardboard when A was my daily driver: what a PITA. I was sooo happy to discover thermostats!

I think the "thermal shock" business is one of those things that sounds good if you say it fast, but otherwise is a bunch of hooey.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2010 radiator replacement 001.jpg (88.0 KB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg 2010 radiator replacement 001 cropped.jpg (74.7 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg 2010 radiator replacement 002 - cropped.jpg (63.5 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg 2006-04-21 15-30-08_0007 (2).jpg (110.0 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg heater exterior.jpg (63.4 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg heater hoses.jpg (70.2 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg 2010 radiator replacement 002.jpg (73.3 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg 2010 radiator replacement 007.jpg (76.4 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg 1961 yearbook photo.jpg (67.6 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg Steve and his Ford in MI.jpg (49.5 KB, 44 views)

Last edited by steve s; 11-28-2018 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 12-03-2018, 01:19 PM   #43
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Default Re: Cold weather driving with or without thermostat?

For the weather in my area, I do what was done originally. A cut a piece of thin plywood or cardboard, about 1/3 rd of the radiator for the limited driving I do! I do understand we are all different and those that add a thermostat, is fine. Just not for me!
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