Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-25-2022, 09:47 PM   #1
GB SISSON
Senior Member
 
GB SISSON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Orcas Island Washington
Posts: 4,846
Default Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

I love a good factory fuel pump but having problems with what I thought was a float/needle hanging up in one of my vehicles. Time was I could tap a wrench on the carb and it would start when hot in hot weather. Lately not so much. I have an inline 12v fuel pump in a box from a previous project. How and why can that make it start when I come out of the store and it's 90 out? Starts like new in the morning, run,pulls,idles like a Swiss watch.
__________________
Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1947 Tonner Pickup (red) mostly stock with exception of a cummins 6at turbo diesel, 1946 Tonner Pickup (green) with 226 cu in 6 cyl flathead, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, completely encased in 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. Ok, cornbinder rear fenders..... 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson)
GB SISSON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2022, 10:03 PM   #2
cmbrucew
Senior Member
 
cmbrucew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North of sandy ago, CA.
Posts: 2,063
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Gary
one of your 6At5.9's would cure that issue.

Bruce
__________________
Works good
Lasts long time
cmbrucew is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 06-25-2022, 10:11 PM   #3
GB SISSON
Senior Member
 
GB SISSON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Orcas Island Washington
Posts: 4,846
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Wise guy! Remember I'm the guy that exploded a 12 ply truck tire 2 feet from my face 3 weeks ago. I have only driven the 6at cummins truck once since then. I am moving in the direction of my quiet vehicles...... Huh? Say what?....
__________________
Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1947 Tonner Pickup (red) mostly stock with exception of a cummins 6at turbo diesel, 1946 Tonner Pickup (green) with 226 cu in 6 cyl flathead, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, completely encased in 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. Ok, cornbinder rear fenders..... 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson)
GB SISSON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2022, 10:52 PM   #4
cas3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: sw minnesota
Posts: 4,543
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

yup, just drive the cummins and forget about it ! just kidding of coarse, vapor lock is a funny thing how some get it and some dont. I would experiment a bit before going electric. either a fiber ( or wood ? ) spacer under the carb, then some insulation like header wrap etc. around the fuel line. Try the free stuff first
cas3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2022, 11:02 PM   #5
GB SISSON
Senior Member
 
GB SISSON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Orcas Island Washington
Posts: 4,846
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Quote:
Originally Posted by cas3 View Post
yup, just drive the cummins and forget about it ! just kidding of coarse, vapor lock is a funny thing how some get it and some dont. I would experiment a bit before going electric. either a fiber ( or wood ? ) spacer under the carb, then some insulation like header wrap etc. around the fuel line. Try the free stuff first
The fuel ines in the engine compartment are mostly ( 90 percent ) steel. Would it also help to be rubber (hi tech ethanol FI) type? I coiuld go all rubber.
__________________
Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1947 Tonner Pickup (red) mostly stock with exception of a cummins 6at turbo diesel, 1946 Tonner Pickup (green) with 226 cu in 6 cyl flathead, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, completely encased in 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. Ok, cornbinder rear fenders..... 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson)
GB SISSON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2022, 11:22 PM   #6
cas3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: sw minnesota
Posts: 4,543
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Rubber would be a cheap experiment .
cas3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2022, 11:39 PM   #7
GB SISSON
Senior Member
 
GB SISSON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Orcas Island Washington
Posts: 4,846
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Quote:
Originally Posted by cas3 View Post
Rubber would be a cheap experiment .
Ain't no love like cheap love... For vehicles that is....
__________________
Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1947 Tonner Pickup (red) mostly stock with exception of a cummins 6at turbo diesel, 1946 Tonner Pickup (green) with 226 cu in 6 cyl flathead, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, completely encased in 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. Ok, cornbinder rear fenders..... 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson)
GB SISSON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2022, 11:45 PM   #8
tomcarman
Senior Member
 
tomcarman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Rochester Wa
Posts: 574
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

I seem to remember a long forgotten story and perhaps a myth that putting a clothes pin on the incoming rubber fuel line at the carb would help with vapor lock. Anyone ever heard of this?
Tom
tomcarman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 02:02 AM   #9
ford38v8
Senior Member
 
ford38v8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,616
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcarman View Post
I seem to remember a long forgotten story and perhaps a myth that putting a clothes pin on the incoming rubber fuel line at the carb would help with vapor lock. Anyone ever heard of this?
Tom

There once was an old gentleman who had a beautiful little coupe, I'm thinking a '36 3 window, but my memory plays tricks sometimes... This old gent used to travel to all the V8 Club's National Meets. He was at that time considerably older than i am now, somewhere in his nineties, as i remember. He'd proudly lift his hood for anyone to see what he had, he wasn't bashful. Under that hood was a collection of wooden clothespins that would fill a clothes basket. They were old, stained brownish, and side by side, they covered every bend and turn of his fuel lines before and aft of the stock mechanical pump. Did they prevent vaporlock? As he was there, and his coupe was there, nobody questioned, nobody laughed. The insulation provided by the wood helped isolate the fuel line from the heat of the engine compartment. Was he the originator of the idea? Only the Shadow knows.
__________________
Alan
ford38v8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 04:37 AM   #10
flatford8
Senior Member
 
flatford8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lyman,ME.
Posts: 2,612
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Gary.....I put a phenolic spacer from Bob Shuman on my ‘50 8BA. About that time I may have put on a fresh fuel pump, it was about ten years ago. I haven’t had a bit of trouble since, not that it hits the nineties very often here in So Maine........Mark
__________________
I'm thinkin' about crankin'
My ragged ol' truck up
and haulin' myself into town.
Billy Joe Shaver
flatford8 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 04:44 AM   #11
tomcarman
Senior Member
 
tomcarman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Rochester Wa
Posts: 574
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Good one Alan! GB's story of vapor lock triggered an early memory from my youth of the clothes pin trick from my Dad and Uncle, both known kidders to us gullible youngsters. Maybe they meant if you pinch the line the car wouldn't run thereby eliminating vapor lock? Probably the same story as the rubber lobed cam shaft where the faster the engine rpm the more intake/exhaust performance.
tomcarman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 07:44 AM   #12
flatford8
Senior Member
 
flatford8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lyman,ME.
Posts: 2,612
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

I always thought the idea behind the clothes pins was they acted like cooling fins when the air blew thru them. They probably worked better as a conversation starter…… Mark
__________________
I'm thinkin' about crankin'
My ragged ol' truck up
and haulin' myself into town.
Billy Joe Shaver
flatford8 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 07:49 AM   #13
5851a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: NE Iowa
Posts: 1,661
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

My Grandmothers 50 Pontiac suffered from vapor lock, a coworker told her about the clothes pins. She put them on and I think it worked she said.
5851a is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 08:03 AM   #14
farmertom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: iowa
Posts: 126
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

yes for sure tomcarman,i have two old oily wooden clothes pins on the steel fuel line before filter that came on the'37 when i got it over 2 yrs ago. when i first saw them there my first thought was what the hell then dawned on me that my dad who was born in 1909 told me of this trick as well as my uncle who was a allis chalmers tractor mech. many yrs ago. Tom.
farmertom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 12:01 PM   #15
cadillac512
Senior Member
 
cadillac512's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Kansas
Posts: 897
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Clothes pins on a fuel line work about as well as gasoline on a clothes line.
Terry
__________________
"It don't take but country smarts to solve the problem" (Smokey Yunick)


'41 Merc Town Sedan / 260" 8CM engine
'66 Fairlane four door / "warmed up" 302
cadillac512 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 12:40 PM   #16
FlatTopFreddie
Member
 
FlatTopFreddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2022
Location: Jonestown, Texas
Posts: 38
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Ethanol is the problem... it lowers the boiling point.... on Model A's you can see the fuel boiling in the sediment bowl.. cooling the sediment bowl will help with the boiling...

non-ethanol fuel works well ....
FlatTopFreddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 12:50 PM   #17
Jacques1960
Senior Member
 
Jacques1960's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Mount Desert, Maine
Posts: 504
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

So…add some diesel to the gas
__________________
No job’s done ‘til it’s all done
Jacques1960 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 02:03 PM   #18
1948F-1Pickup
Senior Member
 
1948F-1Pickup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Socal
Posts: 794
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatford8 View Post
Gary.....I put a phenolic spacer from Bob Shuman on my ‘50 8BA. About that time I may have put on a fresh fuel pump, it was about ten years ago. I haven’t had a bit of trouble since, not that it hits the nineties very often here in So Maine........Mark
1/2” phenolic? Did you have to jet up a number or two? I tried one and that was what I was probably going to need. Much better response down low though…..
1948F-1Pickup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 05:04 PM   #19
flatford8
Senior Member
 
flatford8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lyman,ME.
Posts: 2,612
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

I didn’t change anything on the carburetor. Just longer studs that come with it. Like I said, I may have changed the fuel pump at about that time too. I had one from Macs that lasted about a year. The current one was from NAPA and still works fine......Mark
__________________
I'm thinkin' about crankin'
My ragged ol' truck up
and haulin' myself into town.
Billy Joe Shaver
flatford8 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 09:09 PM   #20
GB SISSON
Senior Member
 
GB SISSON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Orcas Island Washington
Posts: 4,846
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

I feel I am fortunate that the parts store here is a napa. In rural areas, and there are Many, the parts for a 47 truck may very well be going into a hay truck that has been in service since new. The biggest factor is that the parts help to get the job done, not win points. Point in case is the echlin ignition parts. But fuel pumps, carb kits etc need to work with the gas at the corner station. Napa is not a restoration company but a practical outlet to get your 8n back into shape for another year of field mowing. Too bad reverse is like 3rd gear!
__________________
Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1947 Tonner Pickup (red) mostly stock with exception of a cummins 6at turbo diesel, 1946 Tonner Pickup (green) with 226 cu in 6 cyl flathead, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, completely encased in 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. Ok, cornbinder rear fenders..... 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson)
GB SISSON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 11:46 PM   #21
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN
Posts: 7,053
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

I agree with the non eth fuel.

I had a 1942 that was always struck by the pull up to the burger joint and wouldn't start. It ran on a electric fuel pump by the tank. It was a coil issue turns out. Removed the loud electric pump and went with a standard mechanical and a good coil.

If you are using a 94. Are you dumping fuel through a bad power valve? I stopped using 94s for strom 97s. No idea really... Best of luck!

Last edited by Tinker; 06-26-2022 at 11:52 PM.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2022, 11:48 PM   #22
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN
Posts: 7,053
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

If you want to cool down the carb put some block off tins under the intake cross over. It is designed to warm the carburetor.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 06-27-2022, 11:44 PM   #23
SoCalCoupe
Senior Member
 
SoCalCoupe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Point Loma, San Diego, CA
Posts: 422
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatford8 View Post
I always thought the idea behind the clothes pins was they acted like cooling fins when the air blew thru them. They probably worked better as a conversation starter…… Mark
I'm with you Mark. There's always more to learn but wood's a better insulator than conductor. Poor electrical conductors are usually poor heat conductors. Not too plausible that a wooden cloths pin would conduct heat away from a fuel line. On the other hand, it seems quite plausible that a wooden cloths pin would insulate a fuel line.
SoCalCoupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2022, 12:38 AM   #24
tomcarman
Senior Member
 
tomcarman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Rochester Wa
Posts: 574
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

I have to chuckle to myself in memory of my Dad and my Uncle for many fond memories of my youth. In post #8 the clothes pin memory resurfaced from when I was just a kid. Apparently by some of the responses it is not unheard of so I don't know if there's truth to it or just kidding by them as stated in post #11. In addition to the rubber lobed camshaft there was also the metric crescent wrench, the left handed screw driver, the drill bit that drilled a square hole, the external combustion engine and unrelated but equally impressive to gullible youngsters the infamous Jackalope, with pictures to prove it.
tomcarman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2022, 11:48 PM   #25
GB SISSON
Senior Member
 
GB SISSON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Orcas Island Washington
Posts: 4,846
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Is a steam engine an external combustion engine? Is that why they call ours an 'internal' one. On the same note I saw a Jackalope just yesterday. Dang things can really move so I couldn't get a picture. And remember my sticking carb float? I got sick of getting out, lifting the hood and tapping the fuel inlet with a wrench. Inspired by Rube Goldberg's 'butt kicking machine' I fabricated an integrel spring loaded hammer with a rod through the dash so I could tap it accurately from the driver's seat. Picture of that one tomorrow.
__________________
Owner/Operator of 'Jailbar Ranch' on the side of Mt. Pickett. Current stable consists of 1946 1/2 ton pickup turned woodie wagon with FH V8, 1947 Tonner Pickup (red) mostly stock with exception of a cummins 6at turbo diesel, 1946 Tonner Pickup (green) with 226 cu in 6 cyl flathead, 1979 Toyota landcruiser wagon, completely encased in 1947 Ford Jailbar sheet metal. Ok, cornbinder rear fenders..... 'Rusty ol' floorboards, hot on their feet' (Alan Jackson)
GB SISSON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2022, 02:43 AM   #26
ford38v8
Senior Member
 
ford38v8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,616
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GB SISSON View Post
Is a steam engine an external combustion engine? Is that why they call ours an 'internal' one. On the same note I saw a Jackalope just yesterday. Dang things can really move so I couldn't get a picture. And remember my sticking carb float? I got sick of getting out, lifting the hood and tapping the fuel inlet with a wrench. Inspired by Rube Goldberg's 'butt kicking machine' I fabricated an integrel spring loaded hammer with a rod through the dash so I could tap it accurately from the driver's seat. Picture of that one tomorrow.

I think old Rube was inspired by Humphrey Bogart to kick his boiler on the African Queen. Remember, He had an assistant at one time who dropped a screwdriver into the valve.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 60011001.jpg (54.3 KB, 7 views)
__________________
Alan
ford38v8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2022, 02:46 AM   #27
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN
Posts: 7,053
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

I was more a Lauren Bacal fan. She wouldn't dropped the screw driver
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2022, 10:18 AM   #28
deuce_roadster
Senior Member
 
deuce_roadster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shelton, WA
Posts: 3,777
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Back to Gary's observation--The electric pump PUSHES gas up to the carb where the mechanical pump SUCKS it up from the tank. As others have noted, at various temperatures the gas at the mechanical pump boils, making air pockets and cannot pump any gas until it cools off. That is the reason electric pumps are placed as close to, or into the gas tank.
deuce_roadster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2022, 04:27 PM   #29
SoCalCoupe
Senior Member
 
SoCalCoupe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Point Loma, San Diego, CA
Posts: 422
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Quote:
Originally Posted by GB SISSON View Post
Is a steam engine an external combustion engine? Is that why they call ours an 'internal' one.
Actually, a gas turbine is quite correctly referred to an external combustion engine. Guess that means a steam engine would be too.
SoCalCoupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2022, 10:12 PM   #30
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN
Posts: 7,053
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Its a motor, how ever it's powered really. Air in Air out pushing a piston. Electric motors is another discussion.


But.. The main difference between internal and external combustion engine is that in internal combustion engines, the working fluid burns inside the cylinder, whereas in external combustion engines, combustion takes place outside the cylinder and heat is then transferred to the working fluid.


So on a steam engine the fire pressure is built in a separate tank and supplied to the cylinder vs a internal gas motor that the combustion happens inside the cylinder. Very similar systems mechanically but different.

Last edited by Tinker; 06-30-2022 at 10:27 PM.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2022, 10:17 PM   #31
cas3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: sw minnesota
Posts: 4,543
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

When pouring too much gas from a jug into a carburetor on a questionable motor I've had some " external combustion " before .
cas3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2022, 10:26 PM   #32
Tinker
Senior Member
 
Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MN
Posts: 7,053
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Quote:
Originally Posted by deuce_roadster View Post
Back to Gary's observation--The electric pump PUSHES gas up to the carb where the mechanical pump SUCKS it up from the tank. As others have noted, at various temperatures the gas at the mechanical pump boils, making air pockets and cannot pump any gas until it cools off. That is the reason electric pumps are placed as close to, or into the gas tank.

There are very different types of pumps as we know. The airtech are technically a push pull pump. Meaning they push but let things drain back under pressure. Like a turtle sponge heart. Why they are rated to pressure and you can use them as an assist with a mechanical. Free flow.

I suppose if you consider the location of the pump, one would pull or one would push. The mechanical has check valves however to restrict return.

Airtechs are great. Rotory Carters are a different animal. Neat conversion.

Have not needed one personally. Somehow




.

Last edited by Tinker; 06-30-2022 at 11:13 PM.
Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2022, 02:48 AM   #33
koates
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Melbourne Australia.
Posts: 2,076
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

Tinker, the electric pumps are named AIRTEX. Regards, Kevin.
koates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2022, 11:36 AM   #34
corvette8n
Senior Member
 
corvette8n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: 36 miles north of Albany NY
Posts: 2,931
Default Re: Electric fuel pumps and vapor lock

I went to a car show in Bennington VT. And a guy with a shoebox flathead had about an inch thick of aluminum foil wrapped around his fuel line, he said he doesn’t have a vapor lock problem anymore.
corvette8n is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:42 PM.