Floorboard bolts/cup washers

[Charles Reese]

Can someone kindly post a close-up photo of the original floorboard bolts and ‘cup’ washer (wood to subrail). Have been told that even the best reproductions (A&L) are not correct. Seems these would be difficult for someone to see during judging but am curious as to what is ‘right’ … was there any differences during production (i.e. 28 vs. 30s, etc.)?

[Tom Wesenberg]

I didn't have a repro part handy to compare to these original parts, but as I recall the repro washer is too small on the O.D. and too large on the I.D. I can get my caliper out to take measurements of these parts if you need me to.

Of course the D nut pictured would be part of the subrail, but these parts were rusted together and stuck in an original 1928 floorboard I bought at a swap meet years ago.

[Charles Reese]

thanks, as always .. pix of repro below

[Steve Wastler]

Looks pretty darn close to me

[Jim Parker Toronto]

These bolts are 12-24. Very difficult to find nowadays.

[Brentwood Bob]

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close. Bob

[Marco Tahtaras]

The most obvious difference is the repro washers are flat on top. The originals are clearly not flat. They are slightly cupped so the outer perimeter touches the surface of the floor board first. If Tom took a pic from an angle you would see the shape. It's important to note this is the same washer as used on the choke rod.

[peters180a/170b]

Call me nuts but i tried to put that slightly cupped edge in on some of the repro cups with a socket..and a hammer... Worked out so so ...not bad.. good thing i just needed a few...l.o.l.

[Milton]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Call me nuts but i tried to put that slightly cupped edge in on some of the repro cups with a socket..and a hammer... Worked out so so ...not bad.. good thing i just needed a few...l.o.l.

Same way I did it. Put the washer over the end of a pipe, dropped a screw through the washer and hammered to shape.

[d.j. moordigian]

My Auveco cup washers look like original types, with the cup, "Japan on Steel",
part # is...112...

Uhhh, how many for the front boards?

Thanks, Dudley

[wrndln]

Dudley,
There are twelve #12 machine screws that are used on the front floorboards.

[Charles Reese]

anyone have an 'edge' shot they can post?

[Richard Lorenz]

Photo Tip: A head-on camera shot will show the shape pretty well if the lighting comes from the side. Most automatic cameras use the built-in flash so that the lighting is very flat.

[d.j. moordigian]

Here it is.

[d.j. moordigian]

Marco said....

" It's important to note this is the same washer as used on the choke rod. "

Marco, for ALL years?

Thanks, Dudley


* Tom, there goes the spares.....LOL *

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by d.j. Moordigian

marco said....

" it's important to note this is the same washer as used on the choke rod. "

marco, for all years?

Thanks, dudley

* tom, there goes the spares.....lol *

Yes!

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

My Auveco cup washers look like original types, with the cup, "Japan on Steel",
part # is...112...

Uhhh, how many for the front boards?

Thanks, Dudley

The Auveco company is still around but their catalog no longer lists #112, wonder why?

[Doug in NJ]

These washers look a lot like the ones sold for sedan door hinge screws. Are they the same?

Doug

[d.j. moordigian]

Doug
I kind-a-remember them on the doors hinges on my 28 roadster, when I was taking
it apart. I would say...no....but I will look. Since Marco said the chock rod, I would
think he would have included that info.

* BTW...just looked at my Brookville body on my hi-boy, they are on the door side
of the hinge,BUT...are NOT the same shape. Hope that helps.
Dudley

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Marco said....
" It's important to note this is the same washer as used on the choke rod. "

Marco, for ALL years?

Ok, I GOOFED on that one! I forgot that the early cars used A-9712 which has only the countersink portion and no outer flange. I think we mentioned it in Area-1 but didn't go look.

Originally Posted by Doug in NJ

These washers look a lot like the ones sold for sedan door hinge screws. Are they the same?

Doug

They are similar but have a larger hole and countersink.

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Doug
I kind-a-remember them on the doors hinges on my 28 roadster, when I was taking it apart. I would say...no....but I will look. Since Marco said the chock rod, I would think he would have included that info.

Dudley

The same washer was used on the door side of the hinge on Roadsters and Phaetons. I believe the larger version was used on the cowl side of these all years.

I dug out a few pieces and hope to take a couple pics to post over the weekend.

[d.j. moordigian]

Marco,

NO SHOT intended........thank you for the help!

[Dan Partain]

I took some photos of an original and a repro a few years ago. I don't have a photo of the screw. I was also thinking of using a pipe or socket to give the correct form even though the size is a little different.
-DAN

[msmaron]

Original Floor Board Washers...

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by Dan Partain

I took some photos of an original and a repro a few years ago. I don't have a photo of the screw. I was also thinking of using a pipe or socket to give the correct form even though the size is a little different.
-DAN

Dan,.....I think that would work....BUT,..use 2 different sizes of pipe/sockets
to get the rolled edge form. Do you have a press? Make sense?
If not, call me.
Dudley

[ModAfan]

Roy Nacewicz (www.fordbolts.com) offers a fine set of floorboard bolts and washers made to original Ford specs.

[wrndln]

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It looks like Roy Nacewicz has implemented a $25 minimum order not including shipping for his parts. This is bad in my opinion if you just need a few special fasteners, like I have order from him in the past.
Rusty Nelson

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by ModAfan

Roy Nacewicz (www.fordbolts.com) offers a fine set of floorboard bolts and washers made to original Ford specs.

I'd like to see some photos of what they look like!...?

[Charles Reese]

Originally Posted by Dan Partain

I took some photos of an original and a repro a few years ago. I don't have a photo of the screw. I was also thinking of using a pipe or socket to give the correct form even though the size is a little different.
-DAN

==============================
Some info from my notes:

CUP WASHER
- plain steel or raven finish
- 3/8” opening in center (repro = 1/4” or 5/16”); head does not contact floor mat
- sorry, cannot recall source so cannot offer credit where due! … Place a reproduction washer on it facing down like to install on floorboards on a 1/2” socket. Place a 9/16" socket on top & gently hit it down with a hammer … will raise a ring like original.


SCREW:
- {J.S.’16}: 12-24 x 1-1/8” flat head screws (zinc plated or raven finish)
- unthreaded 1/4” below the screw head (repros =full threads)

Photo 1&2 ... original cups
Photo 3 … repro cups ‘tweaked’ with above method
Photo 4 … orig screws (note unthreaded area)

[wrndln]

Charles,
Where did you you find the #12 1 1/8" screws? It seems like most vendors sell 1 1/4" long screws. I have noticed that modern #12 screws have a slightly smaller head on them.
Rusty Nelson

[Charles Reese]

Originally Posted by wrndln

Charles,
Where did you you find the #12 1 1/8" screws? It seems like most vendors sell 1 1/4" long screws. I have noticed that modern #12 screws have a slightly smaller head on them.
Rusty Nelson

i have a couple of 'originals' but have not found proper modern replacments .. the one in the green backed photo is from someone else (sorry, dont recall whom to give credit to). will use repros until i find more originals ...

my post was only trying to show a way (sockets) of making a 'cup' shape resembling original. other info is just from my 'working files'

[denniskliesen]

[QUOTE=Marco Tahtaras;343090]Ok, I GOOFED on that one! I forgot that the early cars used A-9712 which has only the countersink portion and no outer flange. I think we mentioned it in Area-1 but didn't go look.

Can somebody tell me what page these washers are in Ford Model A Standard Hardware for nuts bolts and washers?

I just looked at my floor board washers and the original are flat, appear smaller OD with a larger screw head. The repop are larger OD and the screw heads are smaller. Later today I'll remove one of each and post a photo for comparison.

[Charles Reese]

pg 11-4 (2016 revision)

[denniskliesen]

Ok that is in the Judging Standards except on page 11-5 Revised 2016 of my book. They don't give much of a description of the washer except it is either plain or raven finish special countersink. What about the Hardware Guide - a different book? I have looked through all the pages... I guess I'm going blind.

[Tom Wesenberg]

The green picture in #28 is what I posted of my original screw and washer.
I've only seen flat top washers as original.
Modern finishing washers have the convex top surface.

[denniskliesen]

Tom, I think we are on the same page, just not in the MARC books. My original screw and washers are plain not ravin finish. They fit each other much better than the repop do. I never noticed that until now. Time to get the lathe and plain fender washers I have out...

[wrndln]

Note that in the last picture posted by Dennis directly above this post, the modern #12 head is smaller than the original #12 screw. I noticed this sometime back when I was replacing some dinged up screws in the hinges of my 29 pickup. The modern #12 screws sunk down inside the countersunk screw holes more than the original screws. Maybe Dennis can mic the diameter of the original screw heads and the modern screw heads, as it looks like he has a mic available. I am wondering if the original #12 heads are more like 1/4" flathead machine screw heads in size.
Rusty Nelson

[Dan Partain]

Dudley & Charles, Thanks for the photos and the ideas on making the repro's look more like the originals. Since the repro's aren't really the same size as the originals, that's probably the closest to the shape that can be done, but they're better than just flat, the way the come from the suppliers.

Dennis, nice photos and comparison of original and repro. It's interesting to see the screws inserted into the washers, there's quite a difference.

I don't want to start that discussion again, but holy cow, this shouldn't be a difficult piece to reproduce correctly.

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by wrndln

Note that in the last picture posted by Dennis directly above this post, the modern #12 head is smaller than the original #12 screw. I noticed this sometime back when I was replacing some dinged up screws in the hinges of my 29 pickup. The modern #12 screws sunk down inside the countersunk screw holes more than the original screws. Maybe Dennis can mic the diameter of the original screw heads and the modern screw heads, as it looks like he has a mic available. I am wondering if the original #12 heads are more like 1/4" flathead machine screw heads in size.
Rusty Nelson

More pictures? No problem. One of the POs painted the interior floor with black paint because they didn't know any better so ignore the black paint on the original washer, I hadn't scraped it off yet.

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by Dan Partain

Dudley & Charles, Thanks for the photos and the ideas on making the repro's look more like the originals. Since the repro's aren't really the same size as the originals, that's probably the closest to the shape that can be done, but they're better than just flat, the way the come from the suppliers.

Dennis, nice photos and comparison of original and repro. It's interesting to see the screws inserted into the washers, there's quite a difference.

I don't want to start that discussion again, but holy cow, this shouldn't be a difficult piece to reproduce correctly.

Ha! Yeah at least easy for me to do the few I need. I threw away about 20# of fender washers a year and a half ago that will almost work perfect for these. Oh well

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by Dan Partain

Dudley & Charles, Thanks for the photos and the ideas on making the repro's look more like the originals. Since the repro's aren't really the same size as the originals, that's probably the closest to the shape that can be done, but they're better than just flat, the way the come from the suppliers.

Dennis, nice photos and comparison of original and repro. It's interesting to see the screws inserted into the washers, there's quite a difference.

I don't want to start that discussion again, but holy cow, this shouldn't be a difficult piece to reproduce correctly.

Dan,..your correct! Now I'm thinking about making the flat head screws,
correctly, which is a real PAIN! I'm sure that my washers will pass FP,
but the screws are kind of a big deal..

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

More pictures? No problem. One of the POs painted the interior floor with black paint because they didn't know any better so ignore the black paint on the original washer, I hadn't scraped it off yet.

Dennis,..thank you for posting all the measurements!

[wrndln]

Dennis, a second thank you for posting the dimensions of the screws and washers. Not many of us have original hardware from the floorboards, they were lost years ago. It appears the screw length is between 1 1/8" and 1 1/4", so maybe modern 1 1/4" screws aren't too far off - now for the heads.
Rusty Nelson

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by wrndln

Dennis, a second thank you for posting the dimensions of the screws and washers. Not many of us have original hardware from the floorboards, they were lost years ago. It appears the screw length is between 1 1/8" and 1 1/4", so maybe modern 1 1/4" screws aren't too far off - now for the heads.
Rusty Nelson

I'll try to get a photo of the underneath side so you can see how far they protrude from the D nut. I know the repop goes through too far due to the countersink not being correct.

[d.j. moordigian]

I'd like to thank Dan for "reviving" this 5 year old post,..I think it was from one of are
emails..?

I went hunting last night for the Auveco floorboard washers....I forgot how small these
guy's are!

With Dennis's dimensions I checked the ones I have from Auveco,..the sizes are VERY
close! The only dimension that Dennis left out was the head diameter of the screw,..
which is .425" .

Making / reworking the washers is not that hard,..making the screws with the correct
head diameter is another story...and I'm SHORT 4-5 to make a set. Since Auveco has
been around since 1916 they very well could have been the "original suppler" to Ford.

If you need better / clearer photos than the one I posted in #14...speak up..

[Tom Wesenberg]

Unfortunately the crooks at photobucket are holding my pictures in #2 hostage. When I get time I will have to fire up my old computer and find those pictures again. Maybe I can find my original floorboard washers and take another picture.

[d.j. moordigian]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Ok, I GOOFED on that one! I forgot that the early cars used A-9712 which has only the countersink portion and no outer flange. I think we mentioned it in Area-1 but didn't go look.[/SIZE][/FONT]

I forgot about this statement that Marco posted. I did try looking it up in the
JS book, but didn't find it. This COULD help Charles's , but I wouldn't do it,
if it's NOT in the JS you will confuse the judges and they will down-grade
you on it! Just fix the repops are find the Auveco ones..

I think I may/could have one,..BUT the O.D. is a little larger and could be for the doors or
firewall..

[denniskliesen]

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I was working on something else last night and remembered somebody mentioned the choke rod washer matched. Looks like it to me. My car when I bought it was missing the lower pieces of the choke rod assembly, spring and washers and I ordered those from either Bratton's or Snyder's. The washer in the kit looks cad plated. Like d.j. mentioned it will throw the judges off I suppose. It's doubtful my car will ever be judged, but my intentions eventually are to keep it original as much as I can from when it rolled off the line, JS standards or not.

[Bob C]

Just to add more confusion I was looking in the body parts list and it shows
A-35244 Washer (floor board No. 1 Accelerator) and A-35148-R Washer (floor board No. 2 gear shift). So did they use different washers or are these numbers something totally different? The one the parts book shows for the choke seems to be 351276-S2 No. 12 finishing washer.

Bob

[wrndln]

Dennis,
Is the shinier washer in post #46 the choke washer you got from Brattons? If it is and the darker washer is an original floorboard washer, the two look nearly identical to me - are they the same - measurement-wise?
Thanks for posting the pictures.
Rusty Nelson

[denniskliesen]

Rusty, the shiney one is for my choke, from either Snyder's or Bratton's. If it wasn't plated, it would be hard to tell them apart if it were installed on a floor board. Measurements are very close between the 2.

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

I'd like to thank Dan for "reviving" this 5 year old post,..I think it was from one of are
emails..?

I went hunting last night for the Auveco floorboard washers....I forgot how small these
guy's are!

With Dennis's dimensions I checked the ones I have from Auveco,..the sizes are VERY
close! The only dimension that Dennis left out was the head diameter of the screw,..
which is .425" .


If you need better / clearer photos than the one I posted in #14...speak up..

Oops! Forgot one there. I didn't screw but one of the originals out. So there could be some give or take. Here's the original head diameter I forgot to post, and a repop for comparison.

[msmaron]

Post #23 that i put up is a clear cut picture on an original floor board screw on an original floor board

[d.j. moordigian]

This is what I have, the Auveco's..
The second photo isn't all that great,..but the first works.

[Ed in Maine]

Try Roy Nacewicz Enterprises in Carlton, Michigan. I purchased these items for my 1932 and they looked pretty good in S-2 black finish. Ed

[swo4rd]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Call me nuts but i tried to put that slightly cupped edge in on some of the repro cups with a socket..and a hammer... Worked out so so ...not bad.. good thing i just needed a few...l.o.l.

Nope not nuts, Pete, praciicable...enguinity i think is the word anyway, we made a die and put them in the press but I think that the #10 that Restoration Specialties sells will work...I'm ordering a few now to check
ds

[fuzes45]

Bought some from Mc-Master-Carr
Bob