Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-09-2020, 10:37 AM   #21
dean from bozeman
Senior Member
 
dean from bozeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bozeman, Montana
Posts: 934
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Seems to me that the title should stay with the chassis/body. Otherwise every time an engine is swapped out you would need to retitle the vehicle.
dean from bozeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 10:39 AM   #22
goodcar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 158
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

This discussion could go on forever. Hopefully the two folks involved will come to an amicable agreement. This should serve as a reminder for others not to blunder into a similar fiasco. Rules need to be established up front. One would think this situation is a rare occurrence but then maybe it isn't.
goodcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 09-09-2020, 11:09 AM   #23
ronn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,049
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

sell the title to the highest bidder.............
ronn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 11:11 AM   #24
ronn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,049
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Why would you report someone and mention that a 'hefty fine' was paid?

agreed. it takes all kinds..........
ronn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 11:22 AM   #25
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 9,514
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodcar View Post
This discussion could go on forever. Hopefully the two folks involved will come to an amicable agreement. This should serve as a reminder for others not to blunder into a similar fiasco. Rules need to be established up front. One would think this situation is a rare occurrence but then maybe it isn't.

Actually, the rules have not really changed. It's just that many people are unaware of the laws. Just like what many people posted above, what seems logical is not always lawful.

When the Model-A was being produced, Ford stated the engine number was to be considered the automobile's serial number. This is plainly printed in the Model-A instruction booklet. When a new vehicle was sold & registered, the 'DMV' did not lift the body for verification. It used the number that was listed where the manufacturer stated it was located. Later in the early 1950s, the US government mandated that all auto manufacturers come up with a uniform location and numbering system. Prior to that time, it was the manufacturer's discretion where the serial number was to be affixed.

The key to this entire answer is stated in the Instruction Booklet under Specifications & License Data. This Ford-authorized booklet states, -"The engine number is also the serial number of the car." Therefore the vehicle's title number must match the engine number, ...and the engine and the vehicle title are to remain together.

As for DMV making hobbyists lifting a body for VIN verification, ...again, the law for a vehicle owner to obtain a valid vehicle title was to use the engine number. THAT was the manufacturer's location for the VIN (-not the frame). Even though the laws changed in 1954 regarding a uniform VIN mounting location on the body, that law did not nullify or repeal the location used on previously manufactured automobiles as they were 'grandfathered' (-i.e.: exempted) from the new law. Therefore the correct location for the VIN on a Model-A is on the engine.


.
.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Engine VIN01.jpg (45.7 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg Engine VIN02.jpg (58.7 KB, 32 views)
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 12:07 PM   #26
Kevin in NJ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South East NJ
Posts: 3,203
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
For me the engine is legally the vin of the car based on Ford's statements.

BUT

What do the states think because they are the ones to decide to prosecute when they find an violation of the law. So the answer is likely to vary by state. When in doubt carefully and anonymously call up your state's title people for the official answer.

How about this idea.....

So the guy selling gets a duplicate title.
He can give each one a title. So long as the people are in different states could they each get a title for the same number?

I see it as likely since the odds are very high that there are duplicate numbers out there. Some are likely factory errors and others just from engine swaps.
__________________
Cabriolet and Technical Hints
Kevin in NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 12:13 PM   #27
dean from bozeman
Senior Member
 
dean from bozeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bozeman, Montana
Posts: 934
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

The key to this entire answer is stated in the Instruction Booklet under Specifications & License Data. This Ford-authorized booklet states, -"The engine number is also the serial number of the car." Therefore the vehicle's title number must match the engine number, ...and the engine and the vehicle title are to remain together.

Brent, the Instruction Booklet would say this because when the car was new the engine number= the chassis number = the vehicle's title number.

The 'engine and title are to remain together' is wishful thinking, if that. And as I said before, that we mean that we have to retitle the vehicle every time an engine is swapped out. That isn't going to happen.
dean from bozeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 12:52 PM   #28
Don S
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Penticton British Columbia Canada
Posts: 207
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

My 1931 Coupe was purchased as a lot of parts collected from many people ,and put together over a 6 year period back in the early 1980's . The vin number as registered here in British Columbia is the number on the sub frame , IF3594 .The engine is a 1929 block ,not a problem for Dmv here.
Don S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 01:04 PM   #29
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 11,959
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

GM used a number on the engine for many years. They didn't stamp numbers on the frame till much later. States in the US vary on this policy and so do other countries. The number had to be visible to most folk's way of thinking no matter where it was. Ford finally started stamping the frame forward of the body in 1932 and stayed that way for a long time. They also changed the engine trans number to the transmission location and they kept that up until 1948. Ford only put the VIN on V8 or 6-cylinder engines if it was required in a specific state and that was done by the dealers as far as I know.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 09-09-2020 at 01:13 PM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 01:12 PM   #30
Chris in WNC
Senior Member
 
Chris in WNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pineville NC
Posts: 1,125
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

A fun problem to study.

I would expect the title to follow the frame because the engine can be easily re-stamped to match the title of the car it is put into.

But if this is a bare frame, it can also be re-stamped easily.

Here's where it might get squirrely: Say the two components come from a non-title state into a title state, and both purchasers have a bill of sale they want to convert into a title for their "built-from-parts" Model A. Likely the first one to apply will get a new title and the second person will be told by DMV that the serial number is already titled.

Oh, what a tangled web.....

Brent is this an actual situation you have had to resolve? Or are you just tossing it out as an academic exercise to see which rabbit hole we go down in search of a solution.....
__________________
1931 slant windshield Town Sedan

Last edited by Chris in WNC; 09-09-2020 at 01:17 PM.
Chris in WNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 01:31 PM   #31
1931 flamingo
Senior Member
 
1931 flamingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: new britain,ct 06052
Posts: 8,706
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

My opinion is it goes with the chassis.
Hot rodder buys a restored car,sells the chassis,keeps the title so he can register when he puts his new frame/running gear under it.
Paul in CT
1931 flamingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 01:44 PM   #32
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 9,514
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dean from bozeman View Post

Brent, the Instruction Booklet would say this because when the car was new the engine number= the chassis number = the vehicle's title number.

The 'engine and title are to remain together' is wishful thinking, if that. And as I said before, that we mean that we have to retitle the vehicle every time an engine is swapped out. That isn't going to happen.

Dean, you are approaching this from a logical standpoint however not a lawful standpoint. The manufacturer stated the VIN for the vehicle would be the engine number. Ford had a protocol when engines were replaced where the mechanic was required to stamp the replacement engine with correct VIN. A Ford Agency was authorized to do this, -and they even warned in the Service Bulletins about outside individuals doing this re-stamping.

So the bottom-line in this is, the Title VIN does not get changed every time an engine is replaced, ...the replacement engine number does. Just because someone failed to correctly re-stamp an engine during replacement does not mean the law should provide an exemption for them. The engine number IS the correct VIN.


Yes Chris, this is a valid question coming from someone who called me asking what the correct info.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 02:08 PM   #33
Big hammer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Land of Lincoln
Posts: 2,112
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

The title belongs to the person who's name is on the title. If said person sells pieces of the car, body, engine, frame, lug nuts, battery, hardware , etc to different people, the title is still owned by the person with his/her name on it until he signs it over to the next person
__________________
Don't force it with a little hammer tap, tap, tap
get a bigger hammer tap done
Big hammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 03:30 PM   #34
PotvinV8
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 46
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

I think the answer differs from state to state. I know in CA, an engine number won't get you squat. The VIN is on the frame, whether it's stamped there by the factory or the CHP assigns one and stamps it on there for you. Either way, you aren't going to get past the initial VIN inspection without a matching frame number and title.

It's also illegal to sell a title in most states. If it were me and I had the frame and the owner wouldn't hand over the title, I'd be pushing it through for a lien. I've done that before, it's not too hard.

It'd be interesting to hear what the DMV/Highway Patrol/whatever govt agency in your state has jurisdiction over this to see what the legal answer is...
PotvinV8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 04:08 PM   #35
ronn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,049
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Kevin,
title can not legally be used in more then one state- it will pop up as in use.

we have computers today.......... lol!
ronn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 04:42 PM   #36
JRrev
Senior Member
 
JRrev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Frenchtown Township, MI
Posts: 660
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

I had a 1931 A that had a 1929 engine. Sometime over the years the title had 1931 and the '29 engine number. When I bought the A I also got a copy of the original title with the 1931 engine number which was stamped on the frame. Trying to get things straightened out I had the title corrected. I restored the A for fine point. About a year later I get nerve-racking call from the Secretary of State enforcement division saying they have a problem with my A. The officer says that 1931 number was previously registered. Thought maybe it's far away and took a year to connect. While the A was from southern Indiana, turns out the registered number was only thirty miles away! He wants to check the A so he says I have two choices, a manufactured title for the current year and an orange sticker on the firewall or door jamb, or find an engine with a 1931 number and install that! Now my engine is rebuilt, detailed correctly, etc. so I plead with him while trying to make him my next best friend. Tells me I have 24 hours to make my decision. There is a God, as the next day he said I could keep the number. Of course I never knew "the rest of the story" with the guy who had my original engine.

So by virtue of all of this, the engine determines the title here. As an aside the officer wanted to know who stamped the rebuilt engine (was out of state). Had it been in-state he was going to pursue them. He wanted to know if all the parts were original to the car. Seeing where he was headed, of course they are. All stemming from the chop-shop laws.

Last edited by JRrev; 09-10-2020 at 02:05 PM.
JRrev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 05:27 PM   #37
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,250
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Cars here in Australia don't have titles but this thread is still of great interest to me. I have brought 2 Model As here from the US over the years and at one time, wanted to bring a running chassis. The title issue reared its ugly head. Before a car can be exported, it must have a title. That is fair enough and not a bad way to prevent stolen high end cars being sent out of the US for resale. I couldn't get the OK to export the chassis because it didn't have a title - that rightly or wrongly had had stayed with the body which was to become a hotrod.
When I pressed the matter, I found I was in a very grey area. A bare chassis, I was told did not need a title but if it had axles under it, it was considered a car so it did. Clearly, the axles alone didn't need a title and neither did a bare chassis so I asked "At what stage does a pile of parts become a car requiring a title?" Chassis and axles." was the answer and that would apply even it the chassis and axles were not together. Even anywhere in the same shipment. The seller wasn't prepared to send the parts separately so the deal fell over and I still don't have a speedster.
It seems to me that I could get any car out so long as I drip fed the axles and chassis into different shipments. Someone ought to make a TV show about this $#!T
All I can say is, thank goodness we don't have to worry about this stuff here.
__________________
Accidents hurt. Safety doesn't.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 05:54 PM   #38
jw hash
Senior Member
 
jw hash's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn Washington
Posts: 2,264
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

the title should go with the chassis. the title says what the body is on that chassis. here i bought a 31 A with a 29 motor in it. years ago in this state if you change the motor you would go to the DMV and they would change the number on the title to match the motor number, I lifted the body and took the car to the DMV and had them change the vin number on the title back to the chassis number. I had installed a diamond block with no number on it.
jw hash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 06:16 PM   #39
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 11,959
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

My old 29 Sport Coupe has a Texas title the had 2DR as a discription. That was all that Texas cared about was that it had 2 doors. Since I purchased it from a fellow that lived here in the state, there was no VIN confirmation necessary. The new title came back with the same discription 2DR.

The only time I've had to have a confirmation was when a vehicle came in from out of state. That's when they require a VIN confirmation but it can be done by a person that is certified to perform state safety inspections and they don't get too worried about it. A pencil rubbing of the frame number is all I need by Texas statute.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2020, 06:18 PM   #40
Jeff/Illinois
Senior Member
 
Jeff/Illinois's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,227
Default Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
. .......... One buyer buys the engine and transmission, ...and a different buyer purchases the chassis and what is left of the body. Both buyers want the title. Which buyer does the title legally go to?

I suppose the first guy to get to the DMV and have the title registered in his name with that VIN.

Then when the second guy tries to register that same VIN, he will be busted

AND THEN the guy with the frame VIN will be asked by the PoPo to verify HIS VIN and they will declare him the weiner.
Jeff/Illinois is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:48 AM.