Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-03-2020, 01:08 PM   #1
David R.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 334
Default Renumbering question

Working on a AA truck. Engine needs rebuilt. The engine that came in the truck is not original but the numbers were machined off the block and it was re-stamped to match the original numbers and corresponds with numbers on the frame, (September 1930). I found another engine that looks like a more rebuildable core, (December 1928). If I use the Ď28 block should I have machine shop mill the old number off and re-stamp it with original frame number? I donít want to be deceptive in any way but want it properly identified. The other thought I had was to add the original number on rebuilt motor under itís existing number, looks like there would be room. Any thoughts?
David R. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2020, 01:16 PM   #2
Gary WA
Senior Member
 
Gary WA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Clinton,WA/Whidbey Island
Posts: 3,242
Default Re: Renumbering question

What number is it registered with? I would keep the numbers the same if register with that number?
__________________
www.whidbeymodelaclub.com
Gary WA is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 08-03-2020, 01:50 PM   #3
Mulletwagon
Senior Member
 
Mulletwagon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 374
Default Re: Renumbering question

Stamping on the title VIN will save headaches later on. Rebuilders will normally do the stamping for you. Some may dissagree but trying to sell a Model A without the title VIN visible to an out-of-stater can be a deal breaker. Just my $.02.
Mulletwagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2020, 02:23 PM   #4
David R.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 334
Default Re: Renumbering question

I’m leaning towards stamping the 1930 original VIN number under the 1928 engine number. That way it will be obvious the engine isn’t original but original VIN will be visible.
David R. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2020, 03:16 PM   #5
Los_Control
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: West TX
Posts: 26
Default Re: Renumbering question

my opinion, worth what you paid for it. I would mill it off and restamp.
If you do sell it just be honest about it.


With 2 number, it just raises questions ... may never be a issue, or could on a rare occasion if a state inspection is required, and somebody is in a bad mood ..... keep it simple and eliminate possible future headaches.
Los_Control is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2020, 05:28 PM   #6
J Franklin
Senior Member
 
J Franklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: oregon
Posts: 4,354
Default Re: Renumbering question

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Engines were re-stamped routinely after rebuilds back in the day.
J Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2020, 06:37 PM   #7
1crosscut
Senior Member
 
1crosscut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 1,435
Default Re: Renumbering question

Don't double stamp it.
__________________
Dave

It'll feel better when it quits hurting.
1crosscut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2020, 10:40 PM   #8
Chuck Sea/Tac
Senior Member
 
Chuck Sea/Tac's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Between Seattle & Tacoma
Posts: 1,986
Default Re: Renumbering question

Don’t double stamp!! It will cause problems down the road. As mentioned, restamping the engine is the correct way. My engine has a WN ———-/ number from the state, as the frame number isn’t legible.
Chuck Sea/Tac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2020, 02:53 AM   #9
Chris Haynes
Senior Member
 
Chris Haynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: North Hills, CA and Pine Grove, CA
Posts: 2,470
Default Re: Renumbering question

It is illegal in every state to remove a manufacturers serial number.
__________________
1921 Runabout
1930 Tudor
Early 1930 AA
Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?
Chris Haynes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2020, 06:03 AM   #10
David R.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 334
Default Re: Renumbering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
It is illegal in every state to remove a manufacturers serial number.
Well I guess for practical purposes, the manufacturers serial number of the vehicle is the one stamped on the frame (completely invisible with body installed) and the original engine would have had the same number. So re-numbering a rebuilt engine to match original numbers would not in effect be removing a manufacturers number but restoring it?
David R. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2020, 10:49 AM   #11
J Franklin
Senior Member
 
J Franklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: oregon
Posts: 4,354
Default Re: Renumbering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
It is illegal in every state to remove a manufacturers serial number.
I tore the tag off my mattress and I am still running from the law!
J Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2020, 11:30 AM   #12
Mulletwagon
Senior Member
 
Mulletwagon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 374
Default Re: Renumbering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by David R. View Post
Well I guess for practical purposes, the manufacturers serial number of the vehicle is the one stamped on the frame (completely invisible with body installed) and the original engine would have had the same number. So re-numbering a rebuilt engine to match original numbers would not in effect be removing a manufacturers number but restoring it?
Concur !! The concept of a VIN number was not established until 1955. Removing or changing the VIN is for sure a crime. Model As do not have a VIN, just a serial number that was stamped on the frame to match the engine number when it was installed on the assembly line. The problems of trying to register an out-of-state buy with many DMVs is legendary. Worth your while to do what you can to have the frame number, engine number, and title number all agree. Besides, all the players in a possible 1930s car theft are long since gone.
Mulletwagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2020, 12:33 PM   #13
Chris Haynes
Senior Member
 
Chris Haynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: North Hills, CA and Pine Grove, CA
Posts: 2,470
Default Re: Renumbering question

There is some confusion about my previous statement so let me repeat it with a bit more detail. It is illegal to remove, deface, obscure ANY manufacturers serial number on any part of the vehicle.
Below is the law as it applies in California. All states have similar laws.

VEHICLE CODE - VEH
DIVISION 4. SPECIAL ANTITHEFT LAWS [10500 - 10904] ( Division 4 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

CHAPTER 3. Alteration or Removal of Numbers [10750 - 10752] ( Chapter 3 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

10751.
(a) No person shall knowingly buy, sell, offer for sale, receive, or have in his or her possession, any vehicle, or component part thereof, from which any serial or identification number, including, but not limited to, any number used for registration purposes, that is affixed by the manufacturer to the vehicle or component part, in whatever manner deemed proper by the manufacturer, has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, unless the vehicle or component part has attached thereto an identification number assigned or approved by the department in lieu of the manufacturer’s number.

(b) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a), including a vehicle assembled with any component part which is in violation of subdivision (a), comes into the custody of a peace officer, it shall be destroyed, sold, or otherwise disposed of under the conditions as provided in an order by the court having jurisdiction. No court order providing for disposition shall be issued unless the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, are provided a postseizure hearing by the court having jurisdiction within 90 days after the seizure. This subdivision shall not apply with respect to a seized vehicle or component part used as evidence in any criminal action or proceeding. Nothing in this section shall, however, preclude the return of a seized vehicle or a component part to the owner by the seizing agency following presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership and, if determined necessary, upon the assignment of an identification number to the vehicle or component part by the department.

(c) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a) comes into the custody of a peace officer, the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, shall be notified within five days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, after the seizure, of the date, time, and place of the hearing required in subdivision (b). The notice shall contain the information specified in subdivision (d).

(d) Whenever a peace officer seizes a vehicle described in subdivision (a), the person from whom the property was seized shall be provided a notice of impoundment of the vehicle which shall serve as a receipt and contain the following information:

(1) Name and address of person from whom the property was seized.

(2) A statement that the vehicle seized has been impounded for investigation of a violation of Section 10751 of the California Vehicle Code and that the property will be released upon a determination that the serial or identification number has not been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, or upon the presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership of the vehicle or a component part, if no other person claims an interest in the property; otherwise, a hearing regarding the disposition of the vehicle shall take place in the proper court.

(3) A statement that the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, will receive written notification of the date, time, and place of the hearing within five days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, after the seizure.

(4) Name and address of the law enforcement agency where evidence of ownership of the vehicle or component part may be presented.

(5) A statement of the contents of Section 10751 of the Vehicle Code.

(e) A hearing on the disposition of the property shall be held by the superior court within 90 days after the seizure. The hearing shall be before the court without a jury. A proceeding under this section is a limited civil case.

(1) If the evidence reveals either that the serial or identification number has not been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed or that the number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed but satisfactory evidence of ownership has been presented to the seizing agency or court, the property shall be released to the person entitled thereto. Nothing in this section precludes the return of the vehicle or a component part to a good faith purchaser following presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership thereof upon the assignment of an identification number to the vehicle or component part by the department.

(2) If the evidence reveals that the identification number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, and satisfactory evidence of ownership has not been presented, the vehicle shall be destroyed, sold, or otherwise disposed of as provided by court order.

(3) At the hearing, the seizing agency has the burden of establishing that the serial or identification number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed and that no satisfactory evidence of ownership has been presented.

(f) This section does not apply to a scrap metal processor engaged primarily in the acquisition, processing, and shipment of ferrous and nonferrous scrap, and who receives dismantled vehicles from licensed dismantlers, licensed junk collectors, or licensed junk dealers as scrap metal for the purpose of recycling the dismantled vehicles for their metallic content, the end product of which is the production of material for recycling and remelting purposes for steel mills, foundries, smelters, and refiners.

(Amended by Stats. 2002, Ch. 784, Sec. 596. Effective January 1, 2003.)
__________________
1921 Runabout
1930 Tudor
Early 1930 AA
Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?
Chris Haynes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2020, 12:43 PM   #14
GPierce
Senior Member
 
GPierce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Germantown,TN
Posts: 274
Default Re: Renumbering question

Be sure it also comes with the California Proposition 65 Warning paper work if you sell it in CA.
GPierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2020, 02:05 PM   #15
eagle
Senior Member
 
eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Eagle Bend, MN
Posts: 1,625
Default Re: Renumbering question

It's a simple issue, car has a serial number, new engine number is assigned to another car somewhere. Put correct number on new engine to make it match the car number. Engines don't have titles, cars do.
__________________
"There are some that can destroy an anvil with a teaspoon and shouldn't be allowed to touch anything resembling a tool."
eagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2020, 02:32 PM   #16
oldforder
Senior Member
 
oldforder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Columbus Nebraska
Posts: 166
Default Re: Renumbering question

I agree with eagle, and also, don't sell it in California. Here in Nebraska, we also have to have the numbers (not the rest of the car) inspected on any car bought in another state. I asked the county sheriff who was a friend of mine what if I buy a car and the engine number doesn't match the title? He said that there was no recourse but go back to the seller and have him get me a title that matched the engine number. Did not care, or wouldn't even know if the engine number was restamped. I turned down a car I would have bought in Iowa, because the numbers didn't match, and owner flatly refused to have the title changed.
oldforder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2020, 03:19 PM   #17
frank55a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 732
Default Re: Renumbering question

If you re-stamp the engine there should be a star before and after the number. Also the numbers are of a particular size. Make sure your engine rebuilder has a correct set of stamps and the star. Also to CYA take pictures of your old engine so that the number on the frame and engine show in the same picture.
If you do not re-stamp the engine take pictures of both engines so that the numbers of both engines and the frame are in the same shot.
You might check with your DMV I have found with pictures and a reasonable explanation most DMV personnel are reasonable and understanding. If you know a state trouper you might get him/her to look at the numbers and verify them.

Last edited by frank55a; 08-04-2020 at 07:04 PM.
frank55a is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2020, 07:20 PM   #18
David R.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 334
Default Re: Renumbering question

[QUOTE=frank55a;1916747]If you re-stamp the engine there should be a star before and after the number. Also the numbers are of a particular size. Make sure your engine rebuilder has a correct set of stamps and the star. Also to CYA take pictures of your old engine so that the number on the frame and engine show in the same picture.


The engine that was in my truck did not have any stars by the re-stamped numbers, nor the AA prefix. I am not in California and not likely to be.
I looked up our state code. It only has a couple paragraphs under anti-theft laws. It states pretty simply that it is illegal to alter the numbers IF it is done to intentionally misrepresent stolen property. Re-numbering a rebuilt engine to correspond with the original vehicle serial number wouldn't fall into the intentionally misrepresenting stolen property catagory I wouldn't think.

Last edited by David R.; 08-04-2020 at 07:43 PM. Reason: found more information
David R. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2020, 08:07 PM   #19
ronn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,034
Default Re: Renumbering question

I tore the tag off my mattress and I am still running from the law!



I shot the law, but the law won...................
ronn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2020, 09:33 PM   #20
ricconhan
Member
 
ricconhan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Wayne,NE
Posts: 36
Default Re: Renumbering question

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldforder View Post
I agree with eagle, and also, don't sell it in California. Here in Nebraska, we also have to have the numbers (not the rest of the car) inspected on any car bought in another state. I asked the county sheriff who was a friend of mine what if I buy a car and the engine number doesn't match the title? He said that there was no recourse but go back to the seller and have him get me a title that matched the engine number. Did not care, or wouldn't even know if the engine number was restamped. I turned down a car I would have bought in Iowa, because the numbers didn't match, and owner flatly refused to have the title changed.
Oldforder, I also have shyed away from cars out of state for same reason.

Oldforder, please check your private messages. I sent you a couple, I just live north of you about 70 miles.
__________________
"I'd rather be sitting in my A Model thinking about God, then in church thinking about my A Model."
ricconhan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:12 PM.