choosing brake drums for 1940 ford

[hope]

choosing brake drums for 1940 ford

[Kube]

Originally Posted by hope

choosing brake drums for 1940 ford

I'm only guessing there is a question here somewhere?

[hope]

I finally was able to post a picture of my brake system(don't ask me how, i don't know.)


this write up is probably not on the same page as the photo, but that's the best i can do.


Now to my question, i need to buy two rear brake drums for the 40, and all i see in , and what i see of the Bendix systems is not like what i got.


So will the drums offered as to fit the Bendix system fit my system. Don't want to order the wrong ones AAAHHGGG.


Hope

[hope]

AH KUBE isn't nice to be OLD.


I've (plugging on this car for YYYYEEEARS.) and at 84 i'm not about to give up, but soon i'm going to throw-in the towel, getting under the car and getting up is EXTREMELY difficult.

[philipswanson]

At least run the Bendix brakes up front. Much improvement over juice brakes.

[19Fordy]

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The grease retainer is on up side down. Should look like this. Round part with lip faces down. The MT brake drums will work with your stock brakes and backing plate. If you want bendix brakes you also have to install MT Products backing plates. Call them to verify what parts you need like new rear hubs and seals. Use your stock OEM Ford wheel bearings. Here's website:
http://www.mtcarproducts.com/Brakes.html

[Mart]

Hope, as mentioned above, the grease retainer is upside down. Flat side to the top to clear the spring. Can't advise re the drums but the shoes should have one long lining and one short one. Long goes to the front, along with the big end of the cylinder. (Which appears to be correct).
If the shoes were fitted as a set the two short ones might be on the other side.

Mart.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Mart

Hope, as mentioned above, the grease retainer is upside down. Flat side to the top to clear the spring. Can't advise re the drums but the shoes should have one long lining and one short one. Long goes to the front, along with the big end of the cylinder. (Which appears to be correct).
If the shoes were fitted as a set the two short ones might be on the other side.

Mart.

Many of the replacement Lockheed-type brake shoe sets that I have seen have the long linings on both the front AND rear shoes. I'm not sure that both linings being long has any negative affect on braking forces....as long as the FRONT lining is indeed of the "long" variety. But, what do I know? DD

[hope]

I never noticed before that the grease retainer was that way, its the only one like that in the whole car, may have been like that since i bought the car.

[JSeery]

The value of posting photos!

[hope]

What i'm trying to find out is: do the rear drums i see for sale, that are for Bendix style, fit on the style i have posted a picture of witch i believe are Lockeed ?


Hope

[rich b]

If your rear hubs are the style with the flange inside the brake drum, you can remove the old drum (properly), install new serrated studs, and run the Boling Brothers drums as slip-on drums.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by hope

What i'm trying to find out is: do the rear drums i see for sale, that are for Bendix style, fit on the style i have posted a picture of witch i believe are Lockeed ?


Hope

The key point determining whether the new drums will function properly between the LOCKHEED-type and the BENDIX-type is the "offset" of the backing plates. If you will look at each of the two types of b/plates, the center mounting surface with the four bolt holes juts-out toward you at a dimension of something like 5/8"-3/4" or so. That is the "offset" we mention. If you'll notice, the brake shoes and wheel cylinder are "offset" INBOARD by this 5/8-3/4" or so, going by visual rather than me actually going out and measuring one. Just so happens that the offset of the Ford Lockheed b/plate is the same as the offset on the Bendix-type b/plates. This "offset" is important because it determines how far inboard, OR how far outboard the brake drum must sit so as not to rub on the backing plate, yet be close enough to the backing plate to fully cover the brake shoe linings. It is a known fact that you can successfully use STOCK '40 FORD BRAKE DRUM/HUB assemblies with the BENDIX-type backing plates. This suggests to me that the offset on a NEW BENDIX drum should be the same as an OLD '40 FORD DRUM.


The important question now is...HOW are you planning on doing this replacement? Are you planning on using the reproduction BENDIX rear hub along with the NEW BENDIX rear drums? If so, you're golden! Check-out the pictures "19Fourdy" posted above of his BENDIX-type drums and rear hubs.


If you're planning on replacing the NEW BENDIX drums on your OLD FORD hubs, do you realize that removing the drum from the hub takes a special process to accomplish correctly? You must cut away the swaged lip on each wheel stud to be able to de-mate the drum from the hub. This process deems the wheel studs as junk and they must be replaced. it's not just a matter of getting new studs and pounding them into the hub flange. New, slightly-OVERSIZE (diameter) studs of appropriate length must be purchased, and the five stud holes in the hub flange must be reamed to the appropriate size to receive the new studs as they are pressed into place. The new studs will need to be slightly longer than the stock studs were as the NEW drum's mounting surface is thicker than the surface on a stock drum. Simple as pie, huh? Hoping this answers your question. Note the similar offsets on the two different backing plate designs below. DD








……...

[deuce lover]

Brake shoes linings are both the same.Shouldn't be a short on the rear and long on front?

[19Fordy]

Yes, as shown in photo up above in #6 entry, the short shoe faces rearward and long shoe faces forward as does the larger dia. of the wheel cylinder.

I wonder if using 2 long shoes makes any difference in stopping distance or amount of pressure needed on the brake pedal? Anyone know?

Plus, it's probably cheaper to make 2 only the long brake shoe as I think you can flip it over and use it on front and rear of drum.

If you use the complete backing plate, drum,etc. package they will supply you with either stock 1 3/4 in/ wide brake shoes or 2 in wide. Let them know as different length spring pin retainer pins are also supplied, depending on what you use.

[hope]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

The key point determining whether the new drums will function properly between the LOCKHEED-type and the BENDIX-type is the "offset" of the backing plates. If you will look at each of the two types of b/plates, the center mounting surface with the four bolt holes juts-out toward you at a dimension of something like 5/8"-3/4" or so. That is the "offset" we mention. If you'll notice, the brake shoes and wheel cylinder are "offset" INBOARD by this 5/8-3/4" or so, going by visual rather than me actually going out and measuring one. Just so happens that the offset of the Ford Lockheed b/plate is the same as the offset on the Bendix-type b/plates. This "offset" is important because it determines how far inboard, OR how far outboard the brake drum must sit so as not to rub on the backing plate, yet be close enough to the backing plate to fully cover the brake shoe linings. It is a known fact that you can successfully use STOCK '40 FORD BRAKE DRUM/HUB assemblies with the BENDIX-type backing plates. This suggests to me that the offset on a NEW BENDIX drum should be the same as an OLD '40 FORD DRUM.


The important question now is...HOW are you planning on doing this replacement? Are you planning on using the reproduction BENDIX rear hub along with the NEW BENDIX rear drums? If so, you're golden! Check-out the pictures "19Fourdy" posted above of his BENDIX-type drums and rear hubs.


If you're planning on replacing the NEW BENDIX drums on your OLD FORD hubs, do you realize that removing the drum from the hub takes a special process to accomplish correctly? You must cut away the swaged lip on each wheel stud to be able to de-mate the drum from the hub. This process deems the wheel studs as junk and they must be replaced. it's not just a matter of getting new studs and pounding them into the hub flange. New, slightly-OVERSIZE (diameter) studs of appropriate length must be purchased, and the five stud holes in the hub flange must be reamed to the appropriate size to receive the new studs as they are pressed into place. The new studs will need to be slightly longer than the stock studs were as the NEW drum's mounting surface is thicker than the surface on a stock drum. Simple as pie, huh? Hoping this answers your question. Note the similar offsets on the two different backing plate designs below. DD








……...

Thanks All for the reply, and COOPMAN i appreciate the detailed information, but i wasn't planning on replacing all the backing plates and hub, i just wanted to replace the rear drums to the system i have witch i believe are Lockeed.



So i'm still confused as to the fitment of available drums to the system i have. My (budget) at the present time is somewhat Limited.


Hope

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by hope

Thanks All for the reply, and COOPMAN i appreciate the detailed information, but i wasn't planning on replacing all the backing plates and hub, i just wanted to replace the rear drums to the system i have witch i believe are Lockeed.



So i'm still confused as to the fitment of available drums to the system i have. My (budget) at the present time is somewhat Limited.


Hope

Hope......I wasn't trying to suggest that you replace all of those parts. I was merely attempting to rationalize (through the different combinations of all those parts that ARE known to work together) why I thought your particular request would work.


But......you still have not made it clear whether you want to replace your rear drums ONLY with new MT BENDIX drums on YOUR Ford rear hubs, or if you intend to employ the new MT BENDIX drums with MT BENDIX rear hubs. I tried to be explicitly clear with my lengthy, and hopefully concise post. I know there is a lot of confusing nomenclature to absorb there. DD

[19Fordy]

Hope: Since you say: "I wasn't planning on replacing all the backing plates and hub, I just wanted to replace the rear drums to the system I have witch I believe are Lockeed." Then all you need to do is buy the MT drums if you can figure a way to replace the old studs in you OEM hubs or separate the stock drum from the stock hub in such a way that won't destroy the OEM studs. The MT drums will fit just like the originals and you will still have Lockheed brakes just like the system you now have.

I know you want to reuse the OEM hubs but, it's a lot easier and probably cheaper to switch to the MT hubs. Then you will be able to remove your brake drum without having to literally "PULL" the hubs of with a wheel puller.

[hope]

Av8Coopeman & 19fordy Thanks again for putting up with my confusing statements. So let me blame it on (OLD AGE at 84) Every once in a while i seem ready to throw in the towel, but i just can't let go, (keeps me busy and out of trouble).


Yes i do want to use new drums on my old hubs. and if that's too involved i will let my OLDEST son deal with this when he gets the car, when i'm no longer of this world.


And he's no mechanic by any means.

[JSeery]

Hope, I didn't re-read the whole thread, but are your current drums swaged to the lug bolts? That is the issue here. You have to be able to get the drums off of the hubs without damaging anything. I have run across a lot of hubs both front and rear that have be separated sometime in the past and have removal drums. If you still have the swaged drums then you are going to have to figure out how to deal with that.

[hope]

No the drums are not swaged to the lug bolts.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by hope

No the drums are not swaged to the lug bolts.

NOW we're getting somewhere! And MANY thanks to Jim (19Fourdy) and JSeery for simplifying matters to clear-up any confusion that I may have caused.


OK Hope, you indicate that your CURRENT rear drums are already separated from the rear hubs. If that is true, and if it has been properly done, you are home free needing to purchase ONLY two of the new MT BENDIX rear drums. Is there any way you could post a couple of pictures, OR e-mail me a couple of pictures, of your SEPARATED rear hub and drum? Close-up pictures of the hub and it's studs would be good. This would help us to verify for you that your hubs are in fact READY to receive new drums. If it is easier for you to e-mail pictures, my e-mail is below. I can then probably post them here on the 'Barn for everyone to see. DD


My e-mail: [email protected]

[19Fordy]

Yes indeedy. Post some photos of what you're dealing with like V8 suggest. Sounds like all you need are new drums from MT.

[hope]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

The key point determining whether the new drums will function properly between the LOCKHEED-type and the BENDIX-type is the "offset" of the backing plates. If you will look at each of the two types of b/plates, the center mounting surface with the four bolt holes juts-out toward you at a dimension of something like 5/8"-3/4" or so. That is the "offset" we mention. If you'll notice, the brake shoes and wheel cylinder are "offset" INBOARD by this 5/8-3/4" or so, going by visual rather than me actually going out and measuring one. Just so happens that the offset of the Ford Lockheed b/plate is the same as the offset on the Bendix-type b/plates. This "offset" is important because it determines how far inboard, OR how far outboard the brake drum must sit so as not to rub on the backing plate, yet be close enough to the backing plate to fully cover the brake shoe linings. It is a known fact that you can successfully use STOCK '40 FORD BRAKE DRUM/HUB assemblies with the BENDIX-type backing plates. This suggests to me that the offset on a NEW BENDIX drum should be the same as an OLD '40 FORD DRUM.


The important question now is...HOW are you planning on doing this replacement? Are you planning on using the reproduction BENDIX rear hub along with the NEW BENDIX rear drums? If so, you're golden! Check-out the pictures "19Fourdy" posted above of his BENDIX-type drums and rear hubs.


If you're planning on replacing the NEW BENDIX drums on your OLD FORD hubs, do you realize that removing the drum from the hub takes a special process to accomplish correctly? You must cut away the swaged lip on each wheel stud to be able to de-mate the drum from the hub. This process deems the wheel studs as junk and they must be replaced. it's not just a matter of getting new studs and pounding them into the hub flange. New, slightly-OVERSIZE (diameter) studs of appropriate length must be purchased, and the five stud holes in the hub flange must be reamed to the appropriate size to receive the new studs as they are pressed into place. The new studs will need to be slightly longer than the stock studs were as the NEW drum's mounting surface is thicker than the surface on a stock drum. Simple as pie, huh? Hoping this answers your question. Note the similar offsets on the two different backing plate designs below. DD








……...

O.K you guys, i know what you'r thinking..........

So take it easy on the OLD man, but i'm trying ! that's my BAD i'm wrong ( ignorant) they are Swedjed, i just thought it was simpler than that.



V8COOPMAN :
as so elaborately explained in your first post, now i realize how involved it



is (don't know why it took me so long to wake up.)


So as it is for now, it will have to sit a while, unless i get a sudden influx of funds. Because M/T products prices are not compatible with my budget at the moment.


Had to go out in the garage to take the wheel off and the drum to look. i took a picture. i'll try to send it to AV8COOPMAN.


I know i said THANK YOU before, but i have to let you know i appreciate you sticking with me to set my mind straight, this will avoid me buying the wrong part and having to send it back. (witch is a pain).
Hope

[19Fordy]

Ok HOPE. Sounds like you're on the right track.

FIRST: Find out how difficult it is to remove drum from the swedged studs and cost.

I think folks have used hole saws. Whatever you do, don't beat it to death or attack it with a cutting torch.

[19Fordy]

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HOPE: This shows how to remove the studs without destroying anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi_FrxpeSi0
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2GZpSR2Fas
and
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...g-bolt.241116/
and
https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124924 and more here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+...hrome&ie=UTF-8

[FlatheadTed]

These are not Lockheed but for any one wanting remove the drums its a common thing to remove the swaged studs on a Model .We drill the head of the rear ,these Model A ones have the grub screw fitted so the drums are removable .

[hope]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

HOPE: This shows how to remove the studs without destroying anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi_FrxpeSi0
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2GZpSR2Fas
and
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...g-bolt.241116/
and
https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124924 and more here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+...hrome&ie=UTF-8

19Fordy
Very valuable information, i will have to (STEW) on that for a while.


Thank You



Hope

[uncle max]

“Hope” you figure it out soon Leo!

[Mart]

Hope. Call me old fashioned, but what would happen if you just bolted it all back together with the existing drums?

Were the brakes working before you tore it down?

Do you do much driving? Do you clock up a lot of miles?

If the brakes are actually serviceable, even if not perfect, how long would you need to drive it for to take it to the point where they really do need replacing?

If your son cared about the car he would fix them for you now.

Don't worry about your son.

If you enjoy driving it just drive it. Who knows what tomorrow will bring?

Mart.

[hope]

Hi Mart


I'll try the best i can to answer all your questions. My age and all the medication i take prevent me from composing a meaningful message.


Here goes:::i do not drive the car a lot, its not registered and i do occasionally drive it in the neighborhood, it only has 28 miles since rebuilt.


The brake system was always bad (iffy) and i know the rear drums are over cut, from what i understand the maximum cut is 12.060" there about and these are 12.125 that i can measure with a tape measure. Probability " one

of the reasons" i have trouble with not having a good brake pedal.


And i thought that using Dot#5 brake fluid was a good decision?


So after spending$$$ on that idea, i'm going to start from scratch and go for a new master cyl...new drums and Dot#3 fluid, i'll do that at the proper time (i work very SLOW) with some help from a friend on bleeding the system,(he's always telling me its a two men operation) but over the years i've always done it by myself.


I do have a some what brake pedal now so i'm going to take the car in the driveway and see what i've got.



So that's where i stand now, and so be it.


Hope

P.S. I've been looking now and then at your progress.

[19Fordy]

Hope: Once you get new legal brake drums you will be a happy camper with good brake pedal and stopping power.
Take it slow and it will go.

[tubman]

From my experience, the last thing someone in your position needs are the additional problems that bleeding a system with DOT-5 brings. I agree that you made the correct decision to stick with DOT-3 (or DOT-4, which is compatible).

[V8COOPMAN]

This is Leo's neat ol' '40 Sedan that he sent me this picture of. C'mon Leo, we've gotta get that thing cruisin' again! DD

[40 Deluxe]

Swedged brake drums were very common back in the day and just about every repair shop, brake shop and machine shop had the tools to do it. Check around some old time shops to see if they can still do it.

[hope]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

This is Leo's neat ol' '40 Sedan that he sent me this picture of. C'mon Leo, we've gotta get that thing cruisin' again! DD

I will eventually conquer this Gremelin, but i cain't be rushed because of OLD Age. I'm "slow" physically and mentally, and i sound like a broken record with this repetition.


Took the 40 for a little ride in the neighborhood, to see what i had for brakes (no good, spongy as hell and about 3" brake pedal) and broke down with another problem i had before.


Coil passed out, and i don't know why. Coil gets extremely hot, now i'm wondering if i got it wired wrong, 12volt converted system and a resister in line. New coil and baught another one with same problem, so its probably my bad again.

When i replace it with an"OLD ONE" it works o.k. but i dont know for how long?
Before i stop Blabering about my problems, let me say that i feel terrible about complaining so much.
Hope

Problems, Problems.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by hope

Problems, Problems.

Ahhhh………! You're not complaining too much, Leo. Several of us here determined to TRY to help ya anyway! Do you know what kind of coil it is (the old one) that you replaced the burned-up ones with? Maybe we can start from there and figure that problem out.


In the meantime, I went over and snooped-around on YouTube and found a video to watch describing what is involved with cutting the swages away from each stud so that someone can safely press the studs out, releasing the drum without warping the flange on your hubs. THIS video shows this "swage cutting" procedure on a JEEP drum/hub. The Jeep assembly is built just a little differently than your '40 Ford drum/hub, but the process is virtually the same. At the least, it'll show you the process necessary to do the separation properly. Click on the link below for the video!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi_FrxpeSi0


Let us know more about that OLD coil that still works! DD

[hope]

Yep! :saw that video on You Tube, made made me feel not so stupid after all Because i had already tried that, with a hole saw on my own, on one stud before a saw the video, also found out that i have to improve my technique a little.
Thanks for keeping me on my toes, (so to speak) to keep me aware of things.
Hope

[hope]

AAAAHHHH computers GEEEESSS.


Try again\... the old coil you asked about is from:: about the 1970s+++

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by hope

AAAAHHHH computers GEEEESSS.


Try again\... the old coil you asked about is from:: about the 1970s+++

OK, but that doesn't tell us much toward what it is EXACTLY to replace it properly. Any writing or marks on it? Couple of pictures, maybe? We're tryin'! DD

[JSeery]

Hope, do you have a voltmeter? You can check the coil and help ID it if you have a meter.

[hope]

O.K. Later, its too late for today.
Hope

[hope]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Hope, do you have a voltmeter? You can check the coil and help ID it if you have a meter.

JSeery


Yes i do have a meter, but i will have to look up the "meanings" of the reading to see if it will help me.
Hope

[V8COOPMAN]

Hey Leo....Wait patiently until JSeery comes back around to help you through a simple exercise with your meter and that coil to determine just what it is inside. Like Paul Harvey used to say......STAND-BY for more! DD

[bobH]

I'm gonna stick my neck out here, and suggest something that some of the 'techies' here will presumably not like or endorse... That is, why do ANYTHING with those 40 rear drums? Seriously, apply a little common sense. Most of the braking is on the front. The rears do very little. And, if I followed this thread correctly, I think we are discussing changing a drum that is at .125 over. And, some bureaucrat much more recently than 1940, decided that .060 is the maximum 'safe' over. The difference that we are suggesting is 'unsafe', is about .065. Correct? That's on the diameter, correct? And, that's about .030 on the radius (or surface). So, I say, take a good look at that drum, and check to see if there is adequate 'meat' left. I'm betting that on Henry's 1940 drums, there is still lots of meat left. Me thinks that if the goal is to find a drum that meets some .060 spec, we're nitpickin here. As most of us old guys know, we never worried about .125 over, back in the day. (And, to put myself where my mouth is, my own personal pickup, which is 51 years old, has been running one rear drum at .125 over, for the last 40 years. No problems.)

[V8COOPMAN]

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Originally Posted by bobH

I'm gonna stick my neck out here, and suggest something that some of the 'techies' here will presumably not like or endorse... That is, why do ANYTHING with those 40 rear drums? Seriously, apply a little common sense. Most of the braking is on the front. The rears do very little. And, if I followed this thread correctly, I think we are discussing changing a drum that is at .125 over. And, some bureaucrat much more recently than 1940, decided that .060 is the maximum 'safe' over. The difference that we are suggesting is 'unsafe', is about .065. Correct? That's on the diameter, correct? And, that's about .030 on the radius (or surface). So, I say, take a good look at that drum, and check to see if there is adequate 'meat' left. I'm betting that on Henry's 1940 drums, there is still lots of meat left. Me thinks that if the goal is to find a drum that meets some .060 spec, we're nitpickin here. As most of us old guys know, we never worried about .125 over, back in the day. (And, to put myself where my mouth is, my own personal pickup, which is 51 years old, has been running one rear drum at .125 over, for the last 40 years. No problems.)

Yeah, 0.125" over works in a pinch. Guys have been cheatin' that way for 75+ years now. But there's a reason for the 60 thou over rule, or like you point-out...0.030" on each surface. At 0.125" over, that "maleable" drum actually is pretty thin, and in a hard, panic stop that drum will actually egg-shape itself. For one thing, it's more prone to cracking. Not only that....if you're making any kind of repeated hard stops or going down a hill, all that additional heat-absorbing material is not there any more to help with normal dissipation once the brakes are released. Brake-fade is imminent. 1/8" over DOES work good...until it doesn't! And heaven help you if you cream some kid and his family's attorney checks your drums. It happens! But what do I know? DD

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by hope

JSeery


Yes i do have a meter, but i will have to look up the "meanings" of the reading to see if it will help me.
Hope

Measure the resistance between the two threaded terminals on the coil (assuming a "can" coil). That will tell you the internal resistance of the coil. A 6v coil should be somewhere in the 1.5 ohm range and a 12v coil should be somewhere in the 3.0 ohm range. Coils can be lower than the 1.5 ohm range, it just determines the required ballast resistor (or no need at all).

You are attempting to achieve a total of approximately 1.5 ohms in a 6v ignition circuit and 3.0 ohms in a 12v circuit. So a ~1.5 ohm coil used with a ~1.5 ohm ballast resistor would work for a 12v system. A ~1.5 ohm coil in a 6v circuit would not require a ballast resistor.

Once you know the primary resistance of your existing coil, it is fairly easy to determine a replacement coil.

[hope]

Stand-by.


All this information has got me in a :"Hold Pattern".


To be continued.


Again Thanks Everybody, in the meantime i've got some some important Honey do list.


Hope.


P.S. On the coil, i don't understand why it gets so Hot and then quits, does it need to be relocated maybe, it now sits on top of the intake near the back?

[1931 flamingo]

"running one rear drum at .125 over, for the last 40 years. No problems"


You must not put on very many miles each year................................
Paul in CT

[19Fordy]

"running one rear drum at .125 over, for the last 40 years. No problems"

WOW! Pretty hard to believe that a knowledgeable car person
would do such a dangerous thing, even for a ride around
the block. I suggest you fix that problem PRONTO.
An accident and lawsuit waiting to happen, especially when you admit
in writing that you know your drums are in such poor condition.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 19fordy

"running one rear drum at .125 over, for the last 40 years. No problems"

wow! pretty hard to believe that a knowledgeable car person
would do such a dangerous thing, even for a ride around
the block. I suggest you fix that problem pronto.
An accident and lawsuit waiting to happen, especially when you admit
in writing that you know your drums are in such poor condition.

"word"! dd

[FlatheadTed]

We changed to metric here in the 70 s so my knowledge is ltd for imperial .Here's a wide 5 I am measuring its near enough NOS ,12" this measure's .o250 (wall ) so going by Bob H post at 30 of each side he's left with .?? ,wall , .