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Old 05-14-2017, 08:29 PM   #1
Lincoln
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Default Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

A Chicago Branch Letter of Feb. 12, 1929 had this to say: "Limited quantities of Model A engines are now available for experimental and manufacturing purposes that have one or more undersize crankshaft pin bearings, and sometimes an undersize camshaft. These ARE NOT for replacement purposes, or for school/college educational purposes. Such engines are to be stamped with an 'S' in front of the star on the motor plate."
Has anyone heard about these special engines, or run across any of them? I have heard about some Model A engines being used in Marine and Industrial applications, and presume they were 'first quality/perfect' engines. BUT THESE?
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

Interesting, and this is the first I've heard of such a thing.

I wonder just what Ford had in mind for the engines if they weren't for schools and educational purposes?
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Old 05-14-2017, 09:27 PM   #3
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

You made it, I am guessing this is your No 25000 posting!
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Old 05-14-2017, 09:44 PM   #4
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

I have an "S" in front of my number. In fact it is clearly "SOS" followed by numbers.
The engine has also been restamped below, which is on my New Mexico title. I wish I knew what the other stamp means. Maybe you have provided a clue.
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Old 05-15-2017, 08:23 AM   #5
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

When Chief worked part time at a Ford Dealer, he literally "built" cars with parts from the SCRAP BIN!
Chiefs' Son, Bill W.
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Old 05-15-2017, 08:51 AM   #6
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

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Ford was not big on wasting stuff.

It is likely the stuff that failed production specs got used someplace.

I would not be surprised if items that failed production specs got put out for replacement parts. It was ok for a mechanic to spend time fitting, but not the production worker.

My brother believes some of the stuff that people bought NOS laying the shelf for decades may have been on the shelf because it never fit.
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Old 05-15-2017, 08:56 AM   #7
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

I have seen that stamp and it is from the "Secretary Of State" new numbering for replacement engine.
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Old 05-15-2017, 10:47 AM   #8
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ View Post
Ford was not big on wasting stuff.

It is likely the stuff that failed production specs got used someplace.

I would not be surprised if items that failed production specs got put out for replacement parts. It was ok for a mechanic to spend time fitting, but not the production worker.

My brother believes some of the stuff that people bought NOS laying the shelf for decades may have been on the shelf because it never fit.
I have thought this as well. Some NOS parts that I have bought off of E-Bay were dimensionally defective in some way. I recall a large E-Bay auction of parts salvaged from an old Ford dealership in which almost every box or tag was marked "NG" in grease pencil. I suspected that the letters meant "No Good".
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

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I have thought this as well. Some NOS parts that I have bought off of E-Bay were dimensionally defective in some way. I recall a large E-Bay auction of parts salvaged from an old Ford dealership in which almost every box or tag was marked "NG" in grease pencil. I suspected that the letters meant "No Good".

It appears that parts made later, after A production, were not built as well. They were likely contracted out. I was told that some known 40's production flywheels were not balanced very well right from the box.
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:14 PM   #10
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

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I have thought this as well. Some NOS parts that I have bought off of E-Bay were dimensionally defective in some way. I recall a large E-Bay auction of parts salvaged from an old Ford dealership in which almost every box or tag was marked "NG" in grease pencil. I suspected that the letters meant "No Good".
More to the point that much of the NOS items you find is actually items manufactured by other companies and sold thru markets such as Western Auto, Sears Roebuck, Montgomery Wards, etc. This includes fenders, running boards, radiator, cylinder heads and all kinds of items.
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Old 05-15-2017, 02:52 PM   #11
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

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Originally Posted by ursus View Post
I have thought this as well. Some NOS parts that I have bought off of E-Bay were dimensionally defective in some way. I recall a large E-Bay auction of parts salvaged from an old Ford dealership in which almost every box or tag was marked "NG" in grease pencil. I suspected that the letters meant "No Good".
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Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
More to the point that much of the NOS items you find is actually items manufactured by other companies and sold thru markets such as Western Auto, Sears Roebuck, Montgomery Wards, etc. This includes fenders, running boards, radiator, cylinder heads and all kinds of items.
Hey!! Something like the Repop parts that are available today...
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Old 05-15-2017, 03:26 PM   #12
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

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Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
More to the point that much of the NOS items you find is actually items manufactured by other companies and sold thru markets such as Western Auto, Sears Roebuck, Montgomery Wards, etc. This includes fenders, running boards, radiator, cylinder heads and all kinds of items.
I was using NOS to denote parts that were sourced directly from Ford Motor Co. For all the other non-Ford aftermarket stuff produced in North America I prefer to use NORS. A lot of the NORS stuff is actually of high quality as it was produced back when we had a quality manufacturing base.
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:43 PM   #13
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ursus View Post
I was using NOS to denote parts that were sourced directly from Ford Motor Co. For all the other non-Ford aftermarket stuff produced in North America I prefer to use NORS. A lot of the NORS stuff is actually of high quality as it was produced back when we had a quality manufacturing base.

Yes, but there is more to that story. Back in the day, Ford was not the only company stamping fenders. For example, do a search on Fostoria Steel Fender or Detroit Body Die. Both these companies along with several others made fenders for Model-As that are/were very close to an OEM Ford fender. There have been many of these fenders that have been sold as NOS but in reality were aftermarket. There are many other items such as Ammeters, Ign. Points, Coils, Water Pumps, etc. that were all passed off as NOS because they were so close to design and aesthetics. This has always been a problem for restorers, ...and was such a problem for Ford even during the period when Model-As were being built that Ford described such parts as 'gyp' parts and warned his Agencies to not use these parts.

Now as to NORS, I think you will find that is a term that surfaced during the 1960s to label items that were similar in design & function, but not close enough to look original. Spring Shackles, Suspension parts, Radiators, engine parts, starter switches, wiring harnesses, etc., etc. all fell into this category. More to the point where these were cheaper items that JC Whitney, Sears, Warshawskys (sp) and other auto parts stores sold during the after war periods. I guess I would say that a few were of decent quality but most, -while decent by today's standards were still not as good as what Ford manufactured. Use the Bulldog brand of suspension parts. They made spindle bolts (King Pins) and shackles for the Model-A which are very good however they were not manufactured like the original items with regard to materials and forging. Go look at an old Wirey Joe harness, --close but no cigar.

And, to confuse the entire rating system, when is old brand-new reproduction parts made in the 60s different from NORS? Many of those items made by Rick's of Shawnee Mission and Tommy Trailor's Specialized Auto have been laying around on shelves for the last 40-50 years and are often mistaken as NORS parts!!

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Old 05-15-2017, 05:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulligen View Post
I have seen that stamp and it is from the "Secretary Of State" new numbering for replacement engine.
I'm not sure what that means. Does it mean that the Secretary of State in a particular state (or Federal) came up with a replacement engine number series?

I would like to know more about it for my car's history. Thanks
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Old 05-15-2017, 06:56 PM   #15
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Yes, but there is more to that story. Back in the day, Ford was not the only company stamping fenders. For example, do a search on Fostoria Steel Fender or Detroit Body Die. Both these companies along with several others made fenders for Model-As that are/were very close to an OEM Ford fender. There have been many of these fenders that have been sold as NOS but in reality were aftermarket. There are many other items such as Ammeters, Ign. Points, Coils, Water Pumps, etc. that were all passed off as NOS because they were so close to design and aesthetics. This has always been a problem for restorers, ...and was such a problem for Ford even during the period when Model-As were being built that Ford described such parts as 'gyp' parts and warned his Agencies to not use these parts.

Now as to NORS, I think you will find that is a term that surfaced during the 1960s to label items that were similar in design & function, but not close enough to look original. Spring Shackles, Suspension parts, Radiators, engine parts, starter switches, wiring harnesses, etc., etc. all fell into this category. More to the point where these were cheaper items that JC Whitney, Sears, Warshawskys (sp) and other auto parts stores sold during the after war periods. I guess I would say that a few were of decent quality but most, -while decent by today's standards were still not as good as what Ford manufactured. Use the Bulldog brand of suspension parts. They made spindle bolts (King Pins) and shackles for the Model-A which are very good however they were not manufactured like the original items with regard to materials and forging. Go look at an old Wirey Joe harness, --close but no cigar.

And, to confuse the entire rating system, when is old brand-new reproduction parts made in the 60s different from NORS? Many of those items made by Rick's of Shawnee Mission and Tommy Trailor's Specialized Auto have been laying around on shelves for the last 40-50 years and are often mistaken as NORS parts!!

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Anyone know what "gyp" stands for ?
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Old 05-15-2017, 07:29 PM   #16
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

Lincoln: Where did you see the Chicago Branch letter of Feb 12, 1929 ?
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Old 05-15-2017, 08:04 PM   #17
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

On Marco's website, he talked about 'NOS' parts he rounded up for his 1930 Dlx. Roadster restoration, that sometimes they had to be 'tweaked' a bit to fit right.

No doubt some of these parts that are being talked about. Factory rejects perhaps.
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Old 05-15-2017, 08:04 PM   #18
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

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Anyone know what "gyp" stands for ?
Without hurting any feelings of minorities, It is a reference to Gypsies being non citizens in many countries of Europe (origins from Romania) and disdained by xenophobes and ethnic purists and nationalists.
Some were known to cut the purity of salt with gypsum, of lesser value in days of yore.
Good synonyms would be counterfeit, knock-off, look-a-like, fake etc.
so getting gypped meant paying for the real deal and getting a knock-off.
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Old 05-15-2017, 08:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

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Anyone know what "gyp" stands for ?
Gypsy
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Old 05-15-2017, 08:12 PM   #20
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Default Re: Ford authorized sale of "imperfect" model a engines.

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Gypsy
Thanx Tom... That's why you got 25K
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