Ohv

[johnneilson]

Interesting question;

I see 3 markets, in descending order;

Touring application, here a 2 port design that uses stock manifolds, limited CR, chamber that can use a stock flat top piston and fair valve spring pressures.

Hot Rod application, 4 port design, cross flow, larger valves and medium springs, more CR and still use flat top pistons.

Race application, cross flow 4 port design, valve locations moved for optimum valves, race porting, more aggressive CR, chamber and ports refined, Hiperf springs and aggressive rockers. This version should also be a taller design to accommodate the larger ports. Add an oring groove for cyl sealing and solid copper gaskets. The list is actually longer than this.

There are a couple very good heads on the market already. The last High-Speed Miller I had here was sn 235. The last couple broken cranks were with 4 port heads, now with my 5 bearing bottom ends, cranks seem to be lasting, transmissions seem to be the next weak link.

The issues of alum vs iron for heads is not so much a concern any more. A good quality alum head will be more than adequate if done properly. I see more issues with proper head gaskets and assembly than the heads themselves.

Being that Tod has the ability to control most of the costs by doing the work himself could offer a lower cost point. I think the real question is how many could be sold for an offering at $2800? (this price just pulled from thick air) And then what HP levels would be expected?

John

PS. I have read 735 units produced for one brand, at $4000 ea, that's 2.9 million dollars in transactions. Some how it just doesn't sound reasonable, I could be wrong though.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

Interesting question;

I see 3 markets, in descending order;

Touring application, here a 2 port design that uses stock manifolds, limited CR, chamber that can use a stock flat top piston and fair valve spring pressures.

Hot Rod application, 4 port design, cross flow, larger valves and medium springs, more CR and still use flat top pistons.

Race application, cross flow 4 port design, valve locations moved for optimum valves, race porting, more aggressive CR, chamber and ports refined, Hiperf springs and aggressive rockers. This version should also be a taller design to accommodate the larger ports. Add an oring groove for cyl sealing and solid copper gaskets. The list is actually longer than this.

There are a couple very good heads on the market already. The last High-Speed Miller I had here was sn 235. The last couple broken cranks were with 4 port heads, now with my 5 bearing bottom ends, cranks seem to be lasting, transmissions seem to be the next weak link.

The issues of alum vs iron for heads is not so much a concern any more. A good quality alum head will be more than adequate if done properly. I see more issues with proper head gaskets and assembly than the heads themselves.

Being that Tod has the ability to control most of the costs by doing the work himself could offer a lower cost point. I think the real question is how many could be sold for an offering at $2800? (this price just pulled from thick air) And then what HP levels would be expected?

John

PS. I have read 735 units produced for one brand, at $4000 ea, that's 2.9 million dollars in transactions. Some how it just doesn't sound reasonable, I could be wrong though.

And the $2800.00 number is not far away from the 3k that sticks in my mind.

Tod

[Jim Brierley]

p.s. Aftermarket blocks, made after 1934, are not legal for Bonneville racing or F.A.S.T. hill climbs. This doesn't mean it's a bad idea though!

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

p.s. Aftermarket blocks, made after 1934, are not legal for Bonneville racing or F.A.S.T. hill climbs. This doesn't mean it's a bad idea though!

And right now, blocks are my priority product.

Tod

[hardtimes]

Hey johnneilson,
I like your suggestion, regarding the 'O-ring' idea. IMO , many more blown head gaskets could/would be prevented with O-rings around perimeter and 'fire wire' groove between 1#/#2 and #3/#4. However that's done, Tod is making his OHV Head from scratch, so he can do things that were not done originally to improve on an original head...thereby making it more powerful while still being able to bolt it onto an A/B engine , with A/B avail equipment, as originally intended.

As Tod is making his OWN version OHV Head, he can incorporate his vision for improvements over the old design and tech ! Namely, larger intake valves and adequate exhaust valves, improved thicknesses and change weak areas that have been exposed over many decades of use. Heck, if he wanted to, he could make a new combustion chamber, maybe better valve cover sealing surfaces and a lot more.

Someone said (John Lavoy?) that the OHV Heads are run by guys touring with him. I'd bet that John could help with a survey of his contacts, as to how many would buy/use an OHV Head....if the price could be what they consider reasonable.

Is has also been said here that this OHV Head question might be better suited to HAMB ! How so, when these heads were made during and at the same time as As/Bs ? Someone else made comments that a flathead will perform as well/better than an OHV Head...I'd love to see proof of that, eh !

Talk about POWER production of these old OHV Heads, these heads were advertised for and used by truckers due to their power producing performance...over flatheads. Never mind that they cost about $30. a copy, even regular A owners bought and used them. At $3000. a copy today, such equipment would be such a deal.

The idea that every OHV Head on the market today is in the $5500. price range, puts it out of reach for most 'frugal' A/B engine owners. Add in shipping/handling and insurance and add me to the frugal crowd also!

I have seen many OHV Heads that had to be welded up/fixed up, due to the poor foundry production. There weren't that many made in the first place. So, is it any wonder why replicas in aluminum took over the market place.

IMO, when Tod makes blocks/heads for this hobby, either alum or cast iron, at reasonably low price...they will sell. Remember the old truism...if you make it they will come buy it or some such

If nothing else, during research of this subject (head making and use of diff metals) I've learned something. Cast iron is NO harder to machine than aluminum, if you know what you're doing and have the right machinery/skill.

[Juggler]

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Hey Tod. I see from the HAMB that you have found a Schofield Head and are considering remodelling that. Fair play to you, but there are already two Cragar/Schofield/Miller heads on the market, albeit at a higher price than you are anticipating, that are by all accounts good units and at least tried and proven.

You must do what you want (and no doubt will ) but if it was me, I'd be looking for another point of difference rather than just price. Sorry to bang on about the Riley 4 Port, but I'd bet that a faithful copy in iron would sell well and at a price approaching, if not up to, what the others are charging for their ohv's.

Just my 2c but I'm feeling a missed opportunity here

Keep up the good work

Cheers

Juggs

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Juggler

Hey Tod. I see from the HAMB that you have found a Schofield Head and are considering remodelling that. Fair play to you, but there are already two Cragar/Schofield/Miller heads on the market, albeit at a higher price than you are anticipating, that are by all accounts good units and at least tried and proven.

You must do what you want (and no doubt will ) but if it was me, I'd be looking for another point of difference rather than just price. Sorry to bang on about the Riley 4 Port, but I'd bet that a faithful copy in iron would sell well and at a price approaching, if not up to, what the others are charging for their ohv's.

Just my 2c but I'm feeling a missed opportunity here

Keep up the good work

Cheers

Juggs

If I had a 4 port to work from, or even pictures, I can make one of those also. And, I am working on changing the Schofield chamber and ports. The one I have has larger exhaust ports than intake. I plan on reversing that. With the molding system I have already, it is very cost effective to run different tooling.

Tod

[Fordors]

Tod, email sent.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Fordors

Tod, email sent.

Got it. Thanks.

Tod

[Joe31]

I would be interested in a iron Riley head. The others don't interest me. If you have a list put me on it. Thanks Joe

[Jim Brierley]

IMO the best street engine is the 4-port Riley, they produce gobs of torque. They easily clear the firewall, some OHV heads do not, my Cook for instance. They are a little difficult to work on but worth the trouble. Also IMO they are not as good for racing as they put more heat into the block, not too good on B blocks. I have been running them for many years and am still impressed with them! I know where the original patterns are but the owner is still not willing to part with them.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

IMO the best street engine is the 4-port Riley, they produce gobs of torque. They easily clear the firewall, some OHV heads do not, my Cook for instance. They are a little difficult to work on but worth the trouble. Also IMO they are not as good for racing as they put more heat into the block, not too good on B blocks. I have been running them for many years and am still impressed with them! I know where the original patterns are but the owner is still not willing to part with them.

The original patterns are of no interest to me. BUT...if I could get someone to lend me a head for measurements THAT would be great. Seems unlikely, though, the way I hear.

Tod

[Jim Brierley]

Mine are both in use, but will keep you in mind.

[Juggler]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

Mine are both in use, but will keep you in mind.

Are there different versions of the 4 Port Mr B? I remember that you thought Charlie Yapp had copied the wrong version of the 2 Port. I've got a copy of the Racing Scrapbook but am away from it right now.

If there are different versions, which is the best?

[Jim Brierley]

The '33 and '34 heads had larger ports than later ones. All were iron until after the war when Riley made a batch in aluminum, just before he was shut down by the government. Joe Gemsa made one batch then sold the patterns to John Vesco who made quite a few. I don't think either of these guys made any changes in the patterns. They then went to George Butler, he made several minor changes but not any to the ports or chambers.

[Juggler]

Thanks for that

Looking forward to your ohv book by the way

[62pan]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

Mine are both in use, but will keep you in mind.

If you decide to sell one, please put me on the list. Ken

PS. Also interested in the OHV book.

[Juggler]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

The '33 and '34 heads had larger ports than later ones. All were iron until after the war when Riley made a batch in aluminum, just before he was shut down by the government. Joe Gemsa made one batch then sold the patterns to John Vesco who made quite a few. I don't think either of these guys made any changes in the patterns. They then went to George Butler, he made several minor changes but not any to the ports or chambers.

Just to put my enquiring mind at rest Mr B, were the Gemsa, Vesco and Butler versions all in iron? Are there any tell tales to distinguish one from the other?

Didn't Dan Price make some more recently in aluminium?

Thanks again for your help

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey Charlie,
All true, but as Chris stated above, CAST IRON is the metal of choice for longevity, power making and working well with cast iron block !
With that is mind, NONE of these people mentioned , make a cast iron OHV Head.
Tod, count me in as a buyer of cast iron on a cast iron block that you're working. Or count me in for an alum head for an alum block. Of course, we are hoping that any future OHV heads from you....will not cost many thousands $ , like the aluminum OHV Heads now available

BTW...Yapp is no longer making one (the 2 port Riley) of the two heads that he made. IMO, killed the golden goose with the cost going higher every year.

Curious on why you say cast iron for power? Admittedly, I don't that much about the Model OHV conversions, but in the SBC world, you need to step up to aluminum heads to start making real power.

I totally get the mismatch of dissimilar metals, but what else am I missing?

Also, I remember finding a website of someone down South who was making OHV conversions out of SBC heads. If I recall, he sectioned them and machined here and there and got some impressive numbers for a kit that cost under $1K.

I'll try to find it.

[daveymc29]

No expert here, but I had a 29 ccpu with an iron Cragar head, supposedly an original, whatever that is, and I ran it to Portland from Danville at highway speeds and all the problem I had was with heat in the cab. I had purchased it in Rio Rico, AZ where it gets hot and maybe that is the reason it sold to me in CA. Other than another block of hot iron ahead of the firewall, it sure produced plenty of power and even with a 97 carb I got about 20 mpg overall with o.d. and 600 X 16s. Wish I had it back. It could scoot.