Making Wood Plans available

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I'd wager I get a couple phone calls a month by someone wanting plans to fabricate their own body wood, ...and it seems we see a couple inquiries a month here asking the same. I have thought several times about digitizing my patterns to create a set of plans for different bodystyles but here are two questions I am trying to research first;

.........What is a complete set of CAD drawings worth?


.........How do I keep piracy of reselling the plans from happening??



I guess my reasoning for asking this is do I even want the headache that I have perceived would be attached with this, ...and who would be a typical customer? There have been inquiries about purchasing wood plans for bodystyles such as a Roadster, and I have thought to myself how that is such a very simple kit that could be purchased for less than $175. I have wondered whether that person did not have the budget to pay the $175 for the kit, --or if they even had the skill or tools to actually fabricate from patterns. Would they even pay $50 for a set of Roadster plans? If they did, would they resell them on eBay or Fordbarn after they are finished using them?

Now think those same questions through using a Fordor or a Victoria as the example. Would they spend $500 to purchase a detailed set of plans? After I sold one or two sets of plans, would I see hobbyists copying my set and reselling them to recoup their investment?

.

[Rowdy]

80% of the people you sold them to would not resell the plans or make kits to resell. Making them sign a legal agreement stating such activity would not be permitted would discourage another 10%. Leaving about 10% who know laws and have attorney advice or just don't care would be the ones you would have to worry about. Reselling the plans likely could not be controlled at any level. Selling completed kits would be the only activity that something could be done about. Rod

[Ron W]

"How do I keep piracy of reselling the plans from happening??"

Offer them FREE!
Ron W

[denis4x4]

When I did my '29 CCPU with stretched corners, I was able to buy specific wood pieces instead of a complete kit from Bert's in Denver. However, I suspect that I have at least a thousand dollars worth of power woodworking tools that were necessary to create the top wood! BTW, how often do you see request here for "used" Huckster plans? I bought a set of those plans and the optional DVD from the source and passed them on to the person that bought my semi-completed huckster body.

Being able to buy specific wood pieces makes more sense than offering blue prints or complete wood kits.

[Rowdy]

I definately agree with that. Buying just the pieces for the rear door assembly and the risers for the floor would make the deluxe delivery wood easy from there. The guy in Co. that made afew kits for the Deuxe Delivery would not just sell individual pieces. Buying the whole kit would not be neccessary as I have patterns to make some of the common wood other than the header. Rod

[JTW]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

The problems that you pose are the ones faced by all business. The comments offered so far are all good. My beliefs are that if the price is very good the effort of reselling wouldn't be worth it. A water mark on the drawings would make them hard to easily copy. And finally, any amount of sales is worth more than no sales.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Brent,

Very sad news for stopping the re-selling of CAD drawings

Just think for a moment-- we cannot control illegal drugs, illegal immigration, Medicare fraud, individuals "everywhere" receiving & selling multiple Food Stamp & Welfare Debit Cards, robberies, burglaries, increased murder & crime in our densely populated inner cities, etc., etc.

Then it would require hiring a costly lawyer & paying high court cost to enforce the stronger 1976 Federal Copyright Laws 17 U.S. C. -102 for copying CAD drawings.

Our history books falsely tell us we got rid of all of the pirates -- we did, that is, just a few on the pirate ships; however, now in 2013, we are presently surrounded by more pirates than we could ever count in one's lifetime.

You are most correct -- plans would definitely be copied by many & passed on to other hobbyist.

Hope this helps.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I'd wager I get a couple phone calls a month by someone wanting plans to fabricate their own body wood, ...and it seems we see a couple inquiries a month here asking the same. I have thought several times about digitizing my patterns to create a set of plans for different bodystyles but here are two questions I am trying to research first;

.........What is a complete set of CAD drawings worth?


.........How do I keep piracy of reselling the plans from happening??



I guess my reasoning for asking this is do I even want the headache that I have perceived would be attached with this, ...and who would be a typical customer? There have been inquiries about purchasing wood plans for bodystyles such as a Roadster, and I have thought to myself how that is such a very simple kit that could be purchased for less than $175. I have wondered whether that person did not have the budget to pay the $175 for the kit, --or if they even had the skill or tools to actually fabricate from patterns. Would they even pay $50 for a set of Roadster plans? If they did, would they resell them on eBay or Fordbarn after they are finished using them?

Now think those same questions through using a Fordor or a Victoria as the example. Would they spend $500 to purchase a detailed set of plans? After I sold one or two sets of plans, would I see hobbyists copying my set and reselling them to recoup their investment?

.

Don't sell them as cad drawings, sell them printed. To scan in the large drawings, or even redrawing them, would be a daunting task for anyone and would most likley deter piracy (but not resale).

You have drawings now. They only make you money if you use them to make a kit. Will you lose a customer if they were to get out to the public. I don't think so.

So you have something that others could use and you will lose nothing if they get out.

But wait, is it fair for someone else to make money on the work you have done? NO it is not. So giving them away is not the answer. Pricing them high would promote piracy especially when the owner actually sees the complexity of some of the parts. Also remember that to have the files printed poster size is not cheap, fedex office charges 85.00 for 24x36. so add it up $500.00 for your files print out only 5 of the sheets)
to better see the actual size of the complex curves) 425.00 brings us up to 925.00 just for the plans. YEA you will see the plans on EBAY in a heart beat. You can't even copyright them to protect yourself.

You will need to find a price point that will get you your money for digitizing the and the labor to get them to the customer that will reduce the temptation to pirate them.

Maybe the better answer is to start a wood kit division of your company selling the kits for less than the others.

The Victoria Assoc has TIFF's of the original drawings for most of the wood. Some are very dark and nearly unreadable. I've taken on the task to clean them up best I can without redrawing them.

[Roadster62]

One of my back burner projects is that pile of 1929 60-C Fordor parts, missing a lot wood forward of the rear section. Would buying your plans vs. buying the wood kit or pieces of it be less costly? If all the proper tools were at hand would your plans produce a better product than the kits that are on the market? Bob

[hcf7851]

In these times everyone copies, it could could be- CDs, DVDs, or any of a hundred other things. Think! how many homes have all in one printer units, before the ink dries copies of the plans will made of the plans. I don't want to sound negative but in these times pirating is a fact of life, but I will say that there still are good people out there also we are not all bad!!!!!

[modeleh]

Although there is a risk of copyright infringement, as others have said some money is better than none. There will always be people who cheat and ride on the back of someone elses hard work. Everyone who has ever written a book is faced with your same problem.
My wife is into quilting and makes and sells patterns sold as a pdf. It seems to be the way to go to keep costs down and eliminates problems on your end related to paper/ink/production/time. The first one she did she gave away free so people could tell the quality and ease of use of the pattern. In your case, perhaps this could be a header pattern which is fairly simple. Now you have people out there that can see the value of your pattern first hand, but they didn't have to risk their money for a disappointment.
You have to consider the price point and how you want to sell them. And again realize that the more reasonable the cost, the less people will steal and reproduce them and the more people will buy from you ligitimately. You might do better to use the Wrigley gum theory of business here. Remember, he made a fortune selling a product at a nickle a piece.
If you sold the patterns relating to each section, you could sell them for less and sell more. Lets say you sell each for ten bucks. A guy needs to do the roof bows in his coupe. So he downloads the patterns for 10 bucks. Then a guy needs to do the rear door on the delivery. Ten bucks. But ten guys over the country see it and say, hey it's only ten bucks and click the buy it now to start the download. Now you just sold a hundred bucks with zero cost for paper/print/shipping. How much is a complete pattern going to sell for and will it be priced at the point you might only sell a couple a month. You generally have to discount the value of the individual items to sell something whole.
Keep in mind, I'm no business man, just a backyard jack of all trades so take it FWIW.

[jrelliott]

When I left MN 6 years ago a coworker gave me a set of Model A parts photos for the wooden parts with part numbers for most of the models. I have no use for it, but if it will be of use to you B. Terry send me an email to [email protected] with you address and will send them to you.

[Rowdy]

To make all of the wood I need it would take 27 individual prints going piece by piece. Full section prints it would depend on how it wad divided. Rod

[denis4x4]

Originally Posted by Rowdy

To make all of the wood I need it would take 27 individual prints going piece by piece. Full section prints it would depend on how it wad divided. Rod

Don't forget the bandsaw with a 10" throat, power planer and misc. sanders. FYI, Home Depot and Lowes don't carry a decent hardwood selection.

Brent, go for product sales on an individual basis and forget the plans.

[Rowdy]

If the 60-B pieces are the same I may have some of those pieces for patterns if you know how to allow for shrinkage, warping etc. Rod

[TerryH]

Whatever you do, be prepared for a small number of people to be disappointed with either drawings or a kit....that is just a fact of life, so please sure to include some kind of disclaimer for any responsibility...........

[Purdy Swoft]

Most that would want patterns would be way to frugal to pay five hundred dollars. I had a bunch of new wood parts that I got in a collection. I let a guy have a header panel for a 30-31 tudor. I knew the guy and only asked twenty dollars for the ready to use header wood. The guy paid the twenty dollars, took the parts home and copied them. A week later the cheap SOB brought the part back and wanted the twenty dollars back.

[eystein]

Exactly !

Excellent idea.

Give them away for free. The important point is to help get as many A's possible correctly restored and on the road.

So who should organise it and handle the funds needed to provide drawings?

Well, what about organisations like MARC, MAFCA and MAFFI.

Personally, I would much rather donate $100 towards getting Ford archive drawings on the web than building the model A museum.



QUOTE=Ron W;696084]"How do I keep piracy of reselling the plans from happening??"

Offer them FREE!
Ron W[/QUOTE]

[Jim Mason]

Embed the purchasers ssn (or other id dats) in strategic places through out the prints.

[Merc Cruzer]

I hate to say it but with the perfection the the 3D printer just around the corner, creating a one off piece will cease to be an issue....no matter what the piece is off of.

[green30coupe]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

I hate to say it but with the perfection the the 3D printer just around the corner, creating a one off piece will cease to be an issue....no matter what the piece is off of.

The price is already coming down and eventually 3D printers will be affordable for the general public. I feel certain that Model A wood will soon be reproduced in a high-density plastic that will not shrink, split, warp or rot yet will accept nails and screws just like wood.

[Merc Cruzer]

With as laser scanner and a 3D printer, there is nothing that couldn't be reproduced. If I was just getting into the job market rather than leaving it......

[RockHillWill]

Brent:

You have seen my collection of drawings for the 225A. I have everyone from the archives, including all the wood ones. You could not possibly create a way to describe on the drawings, the compound curves, overlapping joints, non 90 degree edges and sweeping joints, etc. After buying the plans, they would have to invest heavily in some wood working equipment and still be left with more than a handful of questions about your 'drawings'. A great number of the wood drawings are made with the understanding that some fitting will need to be done after assembly to fit the sheetmetal.

I have done three pickups, the 225A and two Tudors , all with relatively simple wood work, and NONE were the same or a perfect fit upon initial assembly. I was really ticked off with the 'easy' first pickup until I figured this out.

There is NO WAY you want this headache. Each customers wood would require different fittings and phone instructions would be futile. Your customers would be proud of you for selling them inexpensive 'kits and drawings', then get 'touchy' when they could not figure out why it does not fit the first time on their own.

I spent a month or two with a gentleman that had a 3-dimensional wood 'tracer' machine in an attempt to do this for some simple pickup wood, and we both agreed that it was not going to be a money maker to start with and the questions became increasingly evident as we pursued it.

As a Model a restorer, the patterns will work great for you because you already know where to join, trim, extend, etc. each piece after assembly, but that is an almost impossible thought to put on paper for folks that dont have similar contractions and expansions to their existing wood.

I'm not much of a fisherman, but that seems to be more worms than you could ever use!

As always, just a thought.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Rowdy

I definately agree with that. Buying just the pieces for the rear door assembly and the risers for the floor would make the deluxe delivery wood easy from there. The guy in Co. that made afew kits for the Deuxe Delivery would not just sell individual pieces. Buying the whole kit would not be neccessary as I have patterns to make some of the common wood other than the header. Rod

Sometimes the costs associated with manufacturing just one or two pieces make it prohibitive for a company to make a profit. There is set-up time and packaging time that if it is spread out over 30-40 pieces, it is much different than unboxing all of the patterns, sorting thru all of them to find the correct one or two specific pieces, fabricating those two pieces, ...and then re-boxing all of the patterns & jigs and taking them back to storage.

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

You will need to find a price point that will get you your money for digitizing the and the labor to get them to the customer that will reduce the temptation to pirate them.

Maybe the better answer is to start a wood kit division of your company selling the kits for less than the others.

The Victoria Assoc has TIFF's of the original drawings for most of the wood. Some are very dark and nearly unreadable. I've taken on the task to clean them up best I can without redrawing them.

Mike, my question has been do most people that are potential purchasers of prints actually have the capability to fabricate what is on piece of paper anyway. To do good quality work involves using good quality equipment, and IMO there is a fairly vast amount of machinery necessary to do a quality job. Adding to that is a craftsman that can utilize the tools along with the prints to make the pieces properly.

To answer your comment about a wood division, I actually already have a 'wood division' and an employee who came out of the furniture industry who works 40 hours a week fabricating wood for bodies. The problem I have with offering kits at a cheaper price is that our quality/fit is much better than what you purchase in a kit. This is not a 'dig' against the commercially available kits but in reality is more about a hamburger from a steak house vs. McDonalds 'Big Mac'. Both have their place but are really two different products with the same name.

Originally Posted by Roadster62

Would buying your plans vs. buying the wood kit or pieces of it be less costly? If all the proper tools were at hand would your plans produce a better product than the kits that are on the market? Bob

Bob, probably not. In life, I really do not want to create a "McDonald's quality" product. The benefit of buying a manufactured kit is for most people is it serves a need however it does have limitations. With a set of prints, someone can measure their own sheetmetal and compare to the print dimensions to make adjustments accordingly before making sawdust whereas if you hold a prefabricated piece of wood in your hand, you can only make corrections if the piece of wood is too big. Often times that is not the case which delays the project and creates frustration.

Originally Posted by denis4x4

Don't forget the bandsaw with a 10" throat, power planer and misc. sanders. FYI, Home Depot and Lowes don't carry a decent hardwood selection.

Brent, go for product sales on an individual basis and forget the plans.

Denis, thanks for the advice. For several years now we have been doing coachcrafting on a custom-installation basis where we fabricate the pieces to fit the car properly. On a related topic, in the past we have made one-off sheetmetal panels for people to install themselves and most people balk at the price I must charge. I try to explain that my repro panel is a custom-made panel that is exact in aesthetics however my price always gets compared to Howell's, so we just quit retailing patch panels because of the complaining. My fears about the wood would be the same.

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

Most that would want patterns would be way to frugal to pay five hundred dollars.

That has been my fear all along in that most people have no idea what is involved.

Originally Posted by Ron W

"How do I keep piracy of reselling the plans from happening??"

Offer them FREE!
Ron W

Originally Posted by eystein

Exactly !

Excellent idea.

Give them away for free. The important point is to help get as many A's possible correctly restored and on the road.

So who should organise it and handle the funds needed to provide drawings?

Well, what about organisations like MARC, MAFCA and MAFFI.

Personally, I would much rather donate $100 towards getting Ford archive drawings on the web than building the model A museum.

I guess it should not matter that I have spent 1,000s of hours of labor & dollars making these patterns & prints yet you are suggesting I am suppose to just to give them away??

Originally Posted by Jim Mason

Embed the purchasers ssn (or other id dats) in strategic places through out the prints.

Wouldn't a large black permanent marker circumvent this anti-piracy tatic?


Thanks all for your thoughts. Always good to hear other's perspectives..

[700rpm]

Brent, I encountered this dilemma in my design business when I first started out in 1970. A very seasoned associate designer said, "Charge what you think is a fair price for your work. Put a copyright sign on it, then turn it loose. Don't think about it any more. You've made your money, and those who respect the copyright will come to you for permission. You can't control the crooks."

I ran my business like that for 37 years, and my hair isn't gray yet.

[southfork]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Well, What Model A body styles do you have the wood drawings for, now that you've wetted our appetites??? Do you have any for the Deluxe Delivery? If so toss out a price and see what happens.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by southfork

Well, What Model A body styles do you have the wood drawings for..., ??

Do you have any for the Deluxe Delivery?

Like this one???

[QGolden]

Brent,
That is some nice work.

[Rowdy]

Looks like he has them for the 130-B.

[Roadster62]

Brent, was all that nice wood left bare when the vehicle left the factory or was it body color. Beautiful workmanship. Bob

[eystein]

Brent, i wasn't really answering you when I wrote my post, I was making a general statment that I think that getting such information out To the restorers should be the job of the non-profit organisations. They may collect donations to pay for information from the Ford archives or perhaps from you if they find that appropriate.



[quote : I guess it should not matter that I have spent 1,000s of hours of labor & dollars making these patterns & prints yet you are suggesting I am suppose to just to give them away?? ]

[Bill Underwood]

Don't even go there. If these are from archives give them part numbers and let them order them. Yes, there could be lots of part numbers. "Free" is a bit amusing remembering "no good deed goes unpunished". Folks wanting something for nothing are usually the ones wanting mega bucks at the end of the project. I Am NOT being specific to any posters in this thread....so don't start that I am, please!Brent forget it and lay low on that!
Also if at archives, any copyright issues?? Fomoco issues?

[redmodelt]

Wouldn't the plans be like a book; I can't copy it but I can resell it. Yes you should charge for them but once I have bought them and am done with them or found my skill level was not up to it, aren't they mine to sell? If you put a disclaimer saying the buyer, who spent 5-800 on them, can't resell them, don't think you would get many buyers.
Kinda like what happened with the Mel Miller plans for the Model T, lots of copied sets out there because there was no policing of them after he passed and before his daughter took over control and they were copywrited.

[Jim Mason]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Wouldn't a large black permanent marker circumvent this anti-piracy tatic?

What I had in mind was a watermark or perhaps making the lines up from the buyers name and address. Placing the ID data in in a critical place so if it was blacked out the drawing would be useless. It would at least slow them down. More thinking out loud than anything...

[sawzall]

brent

i am personally involved in two "similar" projects..

and am struggling with the same issues.. (how to protect the investment of time and money on our clubs part (and mine) ) from "sharing"

and.. what cost to associate with the drawings..


on another note..

there is in fact a 3d printed material that is based on "wood" and would certainly be acceptable for structural non ornamental body wood..

and..
currently 3d printers are available for under 1000... I have taught students from age 12 - 18 how to model parts more complicated than most of the body wood in a model a..

[Merc Cruzer]

You have a model A block that you just pushed a rod through the side of it. You laser scan the block...then you go to a 3 D printer and produce the same block with the original stamps. That day is not so far off based on the technology we have today.

[markwill]

We have a 3D printer at work and it's amazing. However, doing large parts, like the wood header above the windshield on a tudor, is not practical. More realistic, is the parts can be imaged with a laser and very accurate drawings and patterns can be generated in a jiff. I can understand the shops like B. Terry want to make a buck on the work they do, and rightfully so, but the national clubs could take this on and provide it back to the membership. Most don't have the tools and expertise to fab the wood parts even from plans, so i doubt it would have any impact to shops currently making the wood kits. I rather have the plans rather than another museum that most will never see.

Just my 2-cents.

[Logan]

Here's my thought on it. Maybe you offer the drawings for the low wood use cars for cheap. Let's just say $50-75 just so someone has something to go off of if they want to make their own kit. Probably even cheaper for like roadster pick up wood, or some of to very few cars that used small small portions of wood. But once you get into the wood subframe cars, or medium amount of wood use cars, start charging more. The fordoors, deluxe phaetons, A400, deliveries, etc... people would probably be willing to pay a couple hundred dollars for the drawings. Copyright your drawings if you can. That way no one can publish them legally without your permission. As far as people selling the drawings after their done, it will happen. But probably not very often. Most people will keep them "just incase" they ever do another, or something happens to the car like a wreck or something.

[Arlen]

I wouldn't mess with the headache. Think about how many calls a day classic and ford wood must get from customers saying the kit doesn't fit? Do you want to mess with that? Some guy takes your plans, cut the stuff wrong, then it's your fault. No thanks.

[RockHillWill]

Run as fast as you can from mentioning earning even a nickel from the use of Ford Archive information!

[C26Pinelake]

Brents work shows the difference between a professional and some of the hackers !
Nice work Brent !
Wayne

[Joe K]

"Reverse engineering" has ALWAYS been done - is still being done.

Mom in her mid 50s finally came to a life situation where she could afford most anything she wanted - and she wanted a "schoolhouse clock" in the traditional pattern. So she went to several antique dealers looking for a clock.

Which after a short search she found a clock at a price she liked.

Brought home and set in motion the clock did VERY well at keeping time and being wound every 7th day - a traditional motion in that clock.

Or so we all thought. It was an original clock bought from an antique dealer wasn't it?

After Mom's passing I opened the clock and removed the face for lubrication. I found what looked like the usual Ansonia brassworks inside. But instead of the usual stamped clockworks, stamped large on the brass plates was "Ming Tay Co."

Those crafty chinese...the clock was a FAKE.

Mom never knew. None of the rest of us knew either. The clock was a GOOD fake. Maybe an EXCELLENT fake as the family prides itself on it's business acumen...

Or maybe those Chinese ARE smarter than us...

There will ALWAYS be those who will take your idea and reverse engineer it.

As to the Model A Wood Plans, their duplication cost is minimal compared to a clockworks or even the wooden parts which such plans might allow to be made.

But the key to the problem is stated above - the duplication cost of the wooden parts is greater than the plans. And this mobilization cost for making credible wooden parts is one's protection against infringement.

In the case of the Ming Tay clock, the Chinese mobilization cost to duplicate a 19th century schoolhouse clock was low enough to still be profitable.

So as there is little or no "intellectual property right" for reverse engineered wood plans, I say give them away free. One would have to be content to aid the hobby and consider his time well spent thereby.

And another wrinkle on the same cloth...

Ford, due to their "in depth" legal organization and active intellectual property defense, has secured for themselves a position for Ford Archive prints (where wood pattern drawings might be found as originals.) In this case one could approach Ford and pay for license to duplicate and distribute copies of the prints for those who wish to make their own wood. This a kind of a mid-way cost position between reverse engineering for sale your own prints, or making the wood parts from either Ford prints or one's own.

And in a way as seller of "Ford Authorized Prints" you "piggy back" on Ford intellectual property defense. Part of what you buy when you buy into Ford authorization.

And probably where the solution for us as hobbiests and restorers is best found.

I would pay $25 for a set of plans for the 82A CC pickup. I assume there might be 10 sheets in the set? At $2.50 per sheet I would assume any Ford license could be quickly amortized? There does seem to be demand.

Joe K

[Doug Black]

I know a complete wool kit for my 29 Tudor will run me close to a thousand dollars. I have all the hardwood I need and my dad has all the tools. I just need the sizes of each piece. What other choices do I have for my dad and I to make our wood kit? Not looking to go into business for myself just trying to get my dad in a model a and take my two girls for a ride in a parade.

[Terry,NJ]

Brent, I would abandon this idea. As far as the plans go, there's just too many body styles to accomodate them all. I believe you told me once that the Benson Ford Archive of the Ford Co. charged $25 per page, so the initial investment is large. As you say, how many people have the knowledge and tools to build their own wood? Or the outlets to aquire the wood. BTW you wouldn't happen to have a print or a good picture of the wood of front seat of a Town Sedan?
Terry

[Rowdy]

This thread is over a year old and someone brought it back from the dead. I am sure it is no longer a consideration of Brents by now. Rod

[RockHillWill]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Plans are in the $25 PER PAGE(not per set) drawing range, if you are NOT using them commercially. They are MUCH more expensive per page if you indicate they are being used for a profit. a copy of the drawing is NOT construed as a license in any way (ask Brattons) and they already have a 'program' in place for dealing with those who mislead them. I am only posting this as I want my position perfectly clear if some one from the Benson Archives stumbles across this page series of posts and wants to think I proposed this idea to anyone. I have had my issues with them and do not want any more.

Wood sub frames for cars like a Bugatti, Rolls or Auburns are 8-12 times higher to make than a Model A. Keep it in perspective. I have had to learn that having a keen interest or a dedicated goal does not entitle me to free or cheap 'stuff'. I learned a number of years back that speed/success can be made up of three things. Fast, Cheap or Safe: Pick any two!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Yes, this idea was abandoned many months ago. In all likelihood, I probably would not have considered using original prints from Benson since I would have been drawing in CAD, and most of the vehicles I get in still have some of the original wood intact. Therefore I would reverse engineer and then dimension it to the vehicle. I'm like Will in that the 'hoops' are too high and the hassle too great.

[RockHillWill]

Good morning Brent:

From my viewpoint, reverse engineering that results in an identical part would not prevent patent infringement or proprietary concerns from arising.

You and I have previously discussed the appearance of the fact that wood pieces on a drawing make it appear to be a 2-dimensional component, but quite a few wood pieces require 3-D developments, and that multiplies the work required to generate it on only a water jet or similar 2 axis machine.

What was the cause of issue in Gastonia? Figure anything out?

[Joe K]

From my viewpoint, reverse engineering that results in an identical part would not prevent patent infringement or proprietary concerns from arising.

So what of the "New" old Ford Model A replacement motor. This the ultimate in reverse engineering?

And an ultimate reverse engineering effort garner to it an ultimate intellectual lawsuit?

"If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it might be a FORD duck?"

He has not ruled out profit in his venture.

Joe K

[Terry,NJ]

Let us not forget that the newest of these plans is 83 years old. Any patents have run out a long time ago. At what point does Ford reliquish control of the size and shape of a piece of wood?
Terry

Originally Posted by RockHillWill

Good morning Brent:

From my viewpoint, reverse engineering that results in an identical part would not prevent patent infringement or proprietary concerns from arising.

You and I have previously discussed the appearance of the fact that wood pieces on a drawing make it appear to be a 2-dimensional component, but quite a few wood pieces require 3-D developments, and that multiplies the work required to generate it on only a water jet or similar 2 axis machine.

What was the cause of issue in Gastonia? Figure anything out?

[RockHillWill]

For whatever it's worth, I have firsthand knowledge of what I speak. you folks are welcome to pursue your thoughts at whatever rate and direction you choose. I just wanted my 'opinion' to be clear and present!

[Joe K]

Right now Google puts written Intellectual Property at 91 years: any of the books viewable at books.google.com (or however they currently have the website configured) are only viewable in their entirety if printed before 1923.

There is much discussion (and some dissention) at wikipedia's entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property. Including a chart...





Showing the expansion of intellectual property in recent years.

It would seem to me that items created in the 1930s should be subject to 1930 law. Expanding property rights amounts to "robbing society's Peter to pay originator Paul" and practice of "ex-post facto" law since Paul originally copyrighted his material in expectation of only a 56 year tenure (and reward) for his innovation.

Paul (Ford) was subsequently given a gift by society - a gift originated at everyone else's expense it would seem.

Just my humble opinion...

Joe K

[RockHillWill]

All very cool stuff, assuming that Ford has made no changes or updates to their intellectual property viewpoints in over 80 years.

[Ron W]

It seems to me that a lot of parts manufacturing companys make replacement parts for Fords without worry of infringement! When someone takes a picture of a tree and copyrights it does not mean that nobody else can take a picture of the same tree. Some people worry too much. Ron W

[sissyboy]

Sounds to me like He is afraid of the same thing He is doing to FORD. Taking Their patterns and copying them for $$$$.
Sure would be nice to have plans though for a 29 Tudor sedan header as I think $110 plus shipping is way overpriced.

[mshmodela]

If I had to skills to make them, I'd given the away free as a gift to the hobby. Not sure if the Gilmore museum is 501(c)(3), for historic preservation but you could make them, set a value and donate it to them (provide they make them publicly available and online).. and get a tax credit...)

[reggiedog]

Let me know when you r selling the pieces as I just need a few pieces for my Deluxe Tudor I just need the Belt rail above the doors and back windows.
It's a piece of wood I have tried to make them but I just can't get it right to fit in there I need a pattern or something because each side is different from the other side by about a 1" or a little more.
So when you get started up let me know but I just hope it's pretty soon like this coming summer or so but I would sure buy them from you if you do start up.
Reggie

[RockHillWill]

My friend on the 'other project' that I am working on have been talking about purchasing a used 3D wood tracer. He has an abundance of broken and or cracked pieces and we have been using the West wood glue system to re-assemble them to the point that they fit, then using the powder additive to the West system, the pieces get 'body worked' to a smooth surface to be used as a pattern for the 'new' wood. These types of projects have few customers , and the 3D tracers are few and far between and are really expensive. I have found one locally, but it is buried 30 feet deep in used machine shop equipment and we have been unsuccessful in getting the owner to help us look at it.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Old post, but still interesting to discuss:

Sophisticated "copying technology", whether typewritten, or done with pencil or ink on paper, or "any" CAD drawing, is a World-Wide sophisticated service offered everywhere today.

I get several emails each month from India, Pakistan, China etc., for services to inexpensively electronically translate, alter, compose, and/or reproduce any conceived design on any media in 2D, 3D, B&W, and color.

The Third World now has the all Top-Secret, well guarded "printed" information on how to make the "H" Bomb.

If anyone ever has a very strong desire, (today), to reproduce Model A wood plans, can anyone imagine how easy it would be to obtain and black-market these copies.

One (1) Problem: Demand from enough Model A owners, with willingness to purchase same with cash-in-hand, usually dictates supply.

[Rowdy]

Having spent a considerable amount of time I was able to come up with enough patterns to make 15 of the pieces for my delivery. Bought the rear door and rear subfloor prints from the Benson. Still have 9 pieces of structural wood and the floor decking to go. So far I have incomplete info for the decking. I can see from some of the pics I have it is lap jointed. Have been they have an exposed face of 7 1/2" although I have not verified that yet. No info on the original thickness to this point. Will probably send to the Benson to get more prints this summer so I can put the wood in the done file. Rod

[H. L. Chauvin]

I think I heard recently on CNN News about a very unique and secure "private" server where one can send and store their Secret, Model A Wood Drawings and Wood Plans by email, and they will never be downloaded, confiscated, copied, divulged, nor sold to special interest groups.

[Ed H.]

I down loaded some wood plans for a child potty chair. Once in my computer I tried to add it to my favorites and save it. The plans said i could not save them due to being protected.
Not sure if this pertains to the discussion, just thought i would throw it out there.

[denis4x4]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

I think I heard recently on CNN News about a very unique and secure "private" server where one can send and store their Secret, Model A Wood Drawings and Wood Plans by email, and they will never be downloaded, confiscated, copied, divulged, nor sold to special interest groups.

I think that that server is now in the hands of the FBI!

If I were King, I'd make some sort of a deal with a vocational school to give the wood shop access to the drawings and market individual pieces. Profits would remain in the school and students would not only get hand hands on experience, but learn the realities on the enterprise system. Within the school, I'm sure that there is a computer lab that could set up an online catalog ordering system. Finally, MAFCA and MARC would donate the ad space to make A owners aware of the availability of this service. Come to think of it, this sort of a program could be duplicated in several schools to spread the wealth and set up regional operations to keep shipping costs in line.

[Jim Mason]

Sell them locked with the social security number of the purchaser. or the personal info of the buyer watermarked in the drawings...

[C26Pinelake]

Originally Posted by Ron W

"How do I keep piracy of reselling the plans from happening??"

Offer them FREE!
Ron W

,That would be like asking you to work for nothing at your occupation. This man's livelihood is cars. He must get a monetary reward for his investment.
If you were a carpenter would you build free cupboards or garages for people you did not know? Highly unlikely. The idea to have him work for nothing is ridiculous. Wayne

[fiftyv8]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Why the hell are Model A wood kits so damn expensive anyway.
They are just wood and there are enough Model A's and T's for that matter out there to make it economical enough to produce at a fair price.
I don't think this country is short of lumber...

I hope old car restorers/builders make their own wood parts and let those thieving bastards go broke.
Just take a look at what the cost of a Model A pickup roof kit costs or that of a roadster pickup body kit.

Most pieces are not rockets science and surely these big time reproducers have computer operated equipment that punch this stuff out by the thousands if required.
If they don't have that fancy machinery then our low paid illegals or folks across the border would be willing to make that stuff at low prices.

Don't get me started on where else this stuff could be had cheap...

At least I see one of lower priced manufacturers does sell single components in lieu of a whole kit.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by fiftyv8

Why the hell are Model A wood kits so damn expensive anyway.
They are just wood and there are enough Model A's and T's for that matter out there to make it economical enough to produce at a fair price.
I don't think this country is short of lumber...

I hope old car restorers/builders make their own wood parts and let those thieving bastards go broke.
Just take a look at what the cost of a Model A pickup roof kit costs or that of a roadster pickup body kit.

Most pieces are not rockets science and surely these big time reproducers have computer operated equipment that punch this stuff out by the thousands if required.
If they don't have that fancy machinery then our low paid illegals or folks across the border would be willing to make that stuff at low prices.

Don't get me started on where else this stuff could be had cheap...

At least I see one of lower priced manufacturers does sell single components in lieu of a whole kit.

With all due respect, I can tell you really do NOT have a clue as to what is involved. You stated you don't think this country is short of lumber however I can tell you that my experiences of obtaining Ash counters your thoughts. Next, making the purchase and then warehousing it for up to a year as it dries is not just a dollar or two a board foot any longer.

Next, due to several reasons, the hand labor that is still involved in making many specialty pieces is what drives up the costs. Having a CNC router is fine however look at the waste costs, and the fixturing costs involved in holding that wood while it is being cut. While I realize you you don't feel like this is rocket science, I doubt you have studied the different axis' on many pieces. You then commented on machines and companies could spit these kits out by the thousands. Yes that is likely true however, how many "thieving bastards" have the funds and/or space to inventory all of those kits waiting to be sold? Let's use the most popular closed-car wood structured Sedan as an example and guess that they only sell 1-2 kits per month. At that rate, they would sell 25 kits a year ...and producing 1,000 kits would be a 40 year supply. Now let's just suppose that the actual costs (materials & labor) for that kit would come in at $2,000.00. Who has the money to put $ 2,000,000.00 in inventory and wait 40 years for their ROI? Now, factor that towards how many different kits are needed and hopefully you can see how mass-producing is not an option.

Also, I have explored the costs and even a 3-axis router of any quality and size is over $100k, ...and to have one large enough to do a piece in one elite operation was close to $500k.

I will leave you with this, in my shop we are using a 20" planer with a 5hp 3-phase motor, a Delta Unisaw with a 3hp motor, a Powermatic 18" bandsaw with a 2hp motor along with a couple of commercial sanders. We also use a Bridgeport Mill to fabricate sills. My point is to show that I have large enough equipment to be efficient with time when we fabricate body wood. I also have a craftsman who is in his late 50s that until about 4 years ago was a trim carpenter his whole life. With our patterns and many of the original prints to reference off of, it still takes us 250-275 hours to fabricate and install a wood kit in a Fordor body, -and generally 100 hours of that is just fabricating wood.

I tend to believe that my shop produces a better product than what the kit manufacturers do for two main reasons. The kit manufacturers know that there are restorers out there who will not pay the price for top quality, so they tailor their product accordingly. Also, the kit manufacturers must alter the original design of certain pieces so the kit can be shipped affordably. But even with what they produce, they are entitled to make a fair wage for their product. These companies have bills & employees to take care of, but they produce a product for a consumer who does not have the ability and/or resources to manufacture the bodywood themselves. Be grateful you have the option to purchase a kit, and if you feel the costs are too excessive for your budget, then feel free to secure the tooling involved with fabricating your own wood. Who knows, you may do such a good job on yours where others will ask you to make kits for them. If you wind up doing that, I just hope they never call you a "thieving bastard" behind your back as you charge them what you feel is fair for your services.

[vern hodgson]

What would be the total market? Are you selling to guys replacing portions of wood body pieces or guys building complete bodies from scratch. I would think the market would reach only a few persons with the wherewithal to do their own work. How many A's are out there needing wood?

[fiftyv8]

It is all smoke and mirrors when it comes to Model A & T wood kits in my book.
Shipping prices do not come into it, but while we at it, the cost of shipping these days is not all that flash and they handle it like they are intent to destroy it...
Maybe the packages are shipped via a war zone first.

Why such a mafia strangle hold on access to pattern drawings, what's your guess!!!

[mike657894]

find the problem areas and sell problem area wood kits. those will make you some money. for instance all the wood is pretty good on my fordor. but if i get the roof off again i will replace the area where the soft top nails to.

[ericr]

not having the body styles that are wood-intensive, much of this is above my head. one specific thing that puzzles me, is how Brent gets so many phone calls about wood patterns, if, to make those pieces requires so much expensive equipment. do that many restorers really have a large woodworking shop, in addition to all the regular tools it takes to work on these cars?

[SteveB31]

25 years ago we bought a Model A wood manufacturing company called Myers Model. A Wood, from Wichita KS. Anyone that has restored Model A's for more then 25 years likely used there wood and loved it as the quality was better then any wood kits made before or now. This company only made wood for roadsters, phaetons, pickups, Tudors and coupes. That's all. No 4 doors, panels etc. Just the tooling to make these parts filled a 53 foot tractor trailer. Now, add in the wood heavy 4 door sedans etc , and your tooling triples, since you now are making over 1100 different pieces of wood. ( by the way, in this 53 foot trailer was only the fixtures- no saws, routers, etc. just the tooling fixtures).

We sold that company because everyone wanted the cheapest wood kits made by the other companies (one of which now makes almost all the wood kits now).

The guy that bought it all from us wished he hadn't, and has made little Model A wood, since he makes a lot more money building custom homes.

What I was trying to say here is

- 1100 pieces of wood d takes a lot of tooling to make.
- it wood cost a lot to make these parts, and most folks will still buy the cheapest ones anyhow.

Just my thoughts.....

Steve Becker
Bert's Model A Center

[kevinwalshe]

Originally Posted by forever4

There is no strangle hold. Everyone is free to go to the archives and look at and copy the drawings for personal use at no charge. There are charges if they do it for you. There are licensing charges if you use the drawings for commercial purposes.

Do you have a link to said archives? It would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Kevin

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by fiftyv8

Why the hell are Model A wood kits so damn expensive anyway.
They are just wood and there are enough Model A's and T's for that matter out there to make it economical enough to produce at a fair price.
I don't think this country is short of lumber...

I hope old car restorers/builders make their own wood parts and let those thieving bastards go broke. I have no way to make the complicated parts that some body parts require. If I had to make my own I could not and would have to give up any hope of restoration.
Just take a look at what the cost of a Model A pickup roof kit costs or that of a roadster pickup body kit.

Most pieces are not rockets science and surely these big time reproducers have computer operated equipment that punch this stuff out by the thousands if required. You know this how?
If they don't have that fancy machinery then our low paid illegals or folks across the border would be willing to make that stuff at low prices.

Don't get me started on where else this stuff could be had cheap...

At least I see one of lower priced manufacturers does sell single components in lieu of a whole kit. Try to order a part from them people have spent months trying to get a hold of them.

I wish all would sell by the piece. As you mentioned there are quite a few pieces that can be made by the average guy. And this would save quite a bit of money for us if we could make the "simple" pieces. But don't be fooled, even the most simple part can be more difficult then you first think.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by kevinwalshe

Do you have a link to said archives? It would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Kevin

The Henry Ford
20900 Oakwood Blvd.
Dearborn, MI 48124-5029

Map

You have to go there for it to be free to hand copy the information.

[Tom Wesenberg]

My friend replaced all the wood in his 1930 Murray Town Sedan, and I looked at his original wood sill from just one side. Even if I had the blueprint for that part it would be very difficult to make. I'd want his original part and a duplicating machine.

[fiftyv8]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

I wish all would sell by the piece. As you mentioned there are quite a few pieces that can be made by the average guy. And this would save quite a bit of money for us if we could make the "simple" pieces. But don't be fooled, even the most simple part can be more difficult then you first think.

Yes, so simple that is why even some of the so called suppliers/craftsman screw up their pieces.
I know I've been sent some of their junk...

[colin1928]

Fear not guys there are 3D prints doing a wood products that looks like wood drills screws and glues like wood in almost every way
Only way I can tell it is fake wood is the smell and it is water proof
only a matter of time before it gets to our hobby

[fiftyv8]

Sounds like mana from heaven.
Is wood work judged in concourse events???

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by colin1928

Fear not guys there are 3D prints doing a wood products that looks like wood drills screws and glues like wood in almost every way
Only way I can tell it is fake wood is the smell and it is water proof
only a matter of time before it gets to our hobby

Originally Posted by fiftyv8

Sounds like mana from heaven.
Is wood work judged in concourse events???

The only issue that I know of that needs to be worked thru with the composites is the "elasticity" of product as compared to the wood. These composites seem to work well as long as twisting or vibrations are not being subjected ....and we all know how much constant twisting and vibration these bodies are subjected to. Very likely they will get engineer this issue away in the future.

With that said, the two root problems still comes back to the time it will take to fabricate a piece and the very limited quantity that would be made at one time. I guess it is just like Model-A gas tanks. The technology to manufacture dies has never been as easy as now, -and the availability to manufacture them off-shore has never been as cheap as it is yet it is still not financially feasible to manufacture Model-A gas tanks. I suspect it never will be financially feasible to fabricate Model-A wood in automated methods either.

Eric, I wanna go back and address your earlier comment. I think there are hobbyists out there who you never hear about who have the ability to use the existing wood for patterns, and they have the skills & tooling to manufacture wood. These guys are perfectly comfortable with what they have and really don't need patterns. When you get outside of that type hobbyist, I am not sure who would purchase a set of plans but my thoughts are you will sell some for guys that have a strong desire but in reality do not have the tooling nor the skill to pull it off (...and likely if they did, they would be in the first group above and really not need them).

So it basically boils down to what is the value of a set of plans? A detailed set of plans for a Fordor or a Vic would probably be worth $1,000.00. Would someone pay it? A few may, but then think about how easy it would be (if you had nothing) to purchase a wood kit from a vendor to template from, then make your own and resell your kit at 90% of what you initially paid for it. Kinda like having a set of 3D plans. So my take on the whole project is offering plans really is not worth the reward.

[Terry, NJ]

Originally Posted by fiftyv8

Why the hell are Model A wood kits so damn expensive anyway.
They are just wood and there are enough Model A's and T's for that matter out there to make it economical enough to produce at a fair price.
I don't think this country is short of lumber...

I hope old car restorers/builders make their own wood parts and let those thieving bastards go broke.
Just take a look at what the cost of a Model A pickup roof kit costs or that of a roadster pickup body kit.

Most pieces are not rockets science and surely these big time reproducers have computer operated equipment that punch this stuff out by the thousands if required.
If they don't have that fancy machinery then our low paid illegals or folks across the border would be willing to make that stuff at low prices.

Don't get me started on where else this stuff could be had cheap...

At least I see one of lower priced manufacturers does sell single components in lieu of a whole kit.

You've never done this work, Have you? As Brent said, it requires thinking ' acting, and cutting in three axis. There are very few square angles on these pieces. There are long radii, compound radii, compound angles, odd angled tabs, tongues that require precise fitting to matching pieces. I'm thinking of the rear doors in my Town Sedan. And where else might these pieces be had? I'm a former Tool and Diemaker, (and cheapskate) and I could duplicate much of it, but some I had to buy (about $1800) Local Cabinet makers? They charged me $50 to create a mortise and tenon joints in a seat base. I had the wood all cut and sized. My saw wouldn't cut deeply enough. I think you should remember that Henry Ford worked to +/- .010 when he made this wood and that's what I'm shooting for. And it ain't easy! Go make some of it. And I don't mean the 90 deg. gussets. Maybe you'll find it to be easy, but I doubt it. Good luck!
Terry

[dads34ford]

Has anything changed here?? Are their any plans available anywhere for wood for a 34 Ford 3 Window Coupe???

[redmodelt]

Guess a set of plans would be like a book or record. You can buy and read/play the book/record then sell it but you can not copy it. You the author or in this case designer, received your money for your expense the first time it was sold. Chances are the book or plans will sell a lower cost then they were bought at. Think of a library, they buy lots of books when no longer needed they are sold. That mean the author only received one royalty from the first go around.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by dads34ford

Has anything changed here?? Are their any plans available anywhere for wood for a 34 Ford 3 Window Coupe???

Not as far as I am concerned. I continue to digitize each piece of a bodystyle either from prints, patterns, or samples however the process is very laborious and time consuming. I had not planned to do any Model-40 prints, so this may be a market for you. I would expect to find the prints you need at the Benson Ford library.

As mentioned above, proceeds from sales would never be good enough to cover costs, and the piracy would also cut into revenues making it nothing but a headache.

[Jungle Jim]

Guys,

Years ago I had the same issue with planetary gear reduction drive plans for experimental aircraft. My solution was to print the plans on red paper. Scanning was difficult and photocopying resulted in everything looking black.

Regards,

Jim

[Mike V. Florida]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Jungle Jim

Guys,

Years ago I had the same issue with planetary gear reduction drive plans for experimental aircraft. My solution was to print the plans on red paper. Scanning was difficult and photocopying resulted in everything looking black.

Regards,

Jim

Paper plans and large paper plans at that, are the best way to go to minimize (not stop) piracy. Not easy or cheap to scan.

[ronn]

as Brent said,
whole thing would be a headache, unless you were just offering them for free.


Why Linux is so successful in Europe.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Jungle Jim

Guys,

Years ago I had the same issue with planetary gear reduction drive plans for experimental aircraft. My solution was to print the plans on red paper. Scanning was difficult and photocopying resulted in everything looking black.

Regards,

Jim

Very easy to circumvent in today's technology Jim by just scanning the print with the red background, then importing it into Photoshop where you click on the red and turn all reds into whites by making it the transparent color. BTW, welcome to Fordbarn!!




I realize we have beat this horse to death but another thing I have learned since asking this question here some 5 years ago is that most hobbyist woodworkers do well with 2D plans however they struggle with layout and cutting 3-dimensional shapes on a project. Several years ago I loaned one of my Rail Seat Back Trim prints for a Roadster to a friend, and because the prints used sweeps to layout a 3D compound radius, this person was looking at this print much like a mule looking at a new gate. The bottom line is a set of plans which would be that complicated would be of little use to the average novice woodworker and trying to make customers happy who paid for something they cannot use would be a headache at best.

[dmdeaton]

I have about 12 sets of wooden boat plans. The plans are to build only one boat from. And not sell afterwards. I am sure some have copied, most do not. I have built 2 boats from plans and the others are stashed in the basement floor joists. They are starting to digitize some of them now, and when you purchase online it becomes a instant download. You will get a lot of buyers of your patterns from persons who will never even cut a block of wood, just to have them. Some frame them and hang them in the den. You will still get the same amount of business from people buying your kits, as most do not have the skill or the tools to carve out these pieces. I would buy a set of patterns for my Briggs if they were available, not to use now, but to have them if I need to replace a piece in the future. My 2 cents

[sawzall]

brent... like you I have been digitizing parts for my own library and restoration efforts.. (woodie wagons, and parts that have proven difficult to obtain from others)

technology is always changing and honestly some of the discussion here (about efforts to thwart duplication) is now moot..

soon I'll be able to attend a show, take a few photos of a completed car, or part and digitize that part for use back in the shop.. with this type of capability the competition will continue to revolve around production in the least expensive location...

as for selling prints.. like you I have dealt with folks who want to borrow drawings, or parts to replicate pieces, and I have also a few original prints that use sweeps which makes me chuckle.. but as someone suggested MANY folks might buy plans SIMPLY to hang on the wall..

[Terry, NJ]

Hey guys, I have a less than complete set of original wood pieces that I "Rescued"from my 30 Town Sedan which I will give away to anyone who wants them, For Free! Just pick them up in Bucks County, Pa! The Rot was pretty bad but you can still get dimensions and locations off most of it. I also have some Ash which I sell for $25 a plank. Ash is getting rarer as the Asian Emerald Borer is killing all our Ash trees. Another import from China that we could do without!
Terry

[Karl Wescott]

An option, either as a strategic business decision or as a altruistic contribution to the hobby, is to place drawings in the "public domain".


We developed frame diagrams (NOT full blueprints) as a defense for fitting issues when we sold a fiberglass body and it did not fit the customers (most often incorrect) frame. We made the decision to generally not charge for them, using them as advertising, so have our name and copyright notice. We tend to be liberal about people re-using (Do not make a profit from selling the drawing, and attribute it to us).


Another strategy is for Club members to develop the drawings and contribute to the club, and access to the drawings would be a Club membership perk, much as any technical article in the "Restorer" or other Club publication.

[kajnhedge]

I need the plans for the cab of a '28 roadster PU. I have my own kiln dried wood and my own tools. When I purchased my PU it did not have a stick of wood in it. I was able to make the bed wood and the body blocks. I just need the inside of the cab. I would be willing to pay $50 for the plans.

[DHZIEMAN]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I'd wager I get a couple phone calls a month by someone wanting plans to fabricate their own body wood, ...and it seems we see a couple inquiries a month here asking the same. I have thought several times about digitizing my patterns to create a set of plans for different bodystyles but here are two questions I am trying to research first;

.........What is a complete set of CAD drawings worth?


.........How do I keep piracy of reselling the plans from happening??



I guess my reasoning for asking this is do I even want the headache that I have perceived would be attached with this, ...and who would be a typical customer? There have been inquiries about purchasing wood plans for bodystyles such as a Roadster, and I have thought to myself how that is such a very simple kit that could be purchased for less than $175. I have wondered whether that person did not have the budget to pay the $175 for the kit, --or if they even had the skill or tools to actually fabricate from patterns. Would they even pay $50 for a set of Roadster plans? If they did, would they resell them on eBay or Fordbarn after they are finished using them?

Now think those same questions through using a Fordor or a Victoria as the example. Would they spend $500 to purchase a detailed set of plans? After I sold one or two sets of plans, would I see hobbyists copying my set and reselling them to recoup their investment?

.

The two key questions you are asking are the key!!

From my years in security clearance type work, what I can tell you if it is in print, someone will copy it, and if it is in a file, that you believe is untouchable, think again!

You help folks a lot on this forum! And you also have spent a lot of time and money and also refining wood pieces and the best kinds of wood to use at various points on these good ole Fords! In my opinion, I would stick with providing wood sets for folks and keep your plans for your use! Once they are shared, (unless you just wish to have them shared globally for free) they will become a pdf or a jpg or ?? and will be open to everyone in the public domain!

The real deal with these plans is the average jo blow like me would find them interesting but ???? Those who have a business would love to have a free resource as you are discussing.

[BillCNC]

Realistically, ... The plans would be worthless to most.

YES, it might help a few, but anyone who is serious about making such pieces will be able to generate their own drawings with ease. The folks it would help are only a select few with talent that THEY KNOW THEY ALREADY POSSES.

It takes a lot of knowledge and skill to reproduce these parts WITHOUT modern tools. If you have the proper modern tool's, ... again, ... you more than likely would be able generate your own drawings.

[Lew]

OK, so I've read most of the comments on this thread. I'm not one to post much out there as most everyone else seems to be quicker than me. I did a complete reconstruction of a model a mail truck in the 90's. I built a complete body using plans that were drawn form original parts, through the Postal A's group. This was no easy task, and it took me about 11 years to complete the truck, having not much to work with but some rusty iron hardware and rotted wood. Buying lumber in the rough sizes and then planing it down and making all the parts, angles and joints necessary was a very daunting task. It taught me an appreciation for woodworking beyond belief. My friends suggested that I make duplicate parts as I went along, and sell them to help offset my restoration. I did not do this because of the time involved. I guess my point is that if you have never tried to reproduce an original wood component exactly as it was made, you have no idea what is involved. If kits are available through a vendor and they fit correctly, then they are worth every penny that vendor is selling them for.

[denis4x4]

The '29 CCPU in my avatar has a 6-1/2" cab extention. Needless to say, there were no plans, drawings or kits for the wood. I was able to buy the door post wood and the front header from Bert's on an individual basis. The wood is white oak and was easy to work with. My tools include a planer, band saw, 10" table saw, joiner and a number of power hand tools. While my modifications might not be your cup of tea, it is not an impossible task to create the wood components for a Model A.

[Railcarmover]

Use 90 year old iron mountain ash body blocks as soft jaws for my vise..Ford combined so many distinct,complex trades in making the A when you stand back and consider it its fascinating,from chemical engineers to glass makers to wood workers to foundrymen.

[Rockabilly Rodder]

Why CAD Drawings? As an engineer to me that's too much trouble when just good old hand drafted three view dimentional drawings would suffice. Its not like you own the rights to the wood block design anyway. Besides, China does give a rats a$$ about copyright so if it were me I would just give them away. Would rather be know as being "cool" about it than make a mniscule profit at best.