600W Gear Oil Discussion

[H. L. Chauvin]

Model A lubrication engine oil & transmission & differential gear oil will always be a matter of preference & discussions where Model A owner opinions vary; however, if one is trying to make a choice for transmission & differential gear oil, just hope this helps:

A. General:

!. The exact 1920's-1930's 600W Model A gear oil is no longer available. No doubt the old 600W thickness & viscosity varied slightly from manufacturer to manufacturer, the same as that of gear oils offered today.

2. Independent & also oil company trained laboratory technicians have analyzed samples of the old 600W & have come up with their individual recommendations which in general, maintain the same gear oil weight required for straight cut gears, while providing proper reduced friction for Model A gear lubrication.

3. One main concern with Model A transmission lubricant is the frustration of gear grinding when one shifts from 1st to 2nd, & 2nd to 3rd, accompanied by countless advice on double clutching etc., while others have reported they shift gears in their Model A's just like any other modern stick shift vehicle, without double clutching etc.

4. Parts vendors provide 600W substitutes, which some Model A owners praise, & also some owners complain & refuse to use their 600W substitutes. Some owners on Forum messages report that some 600W substitutes cause gear oil foaming; other continue to ask who has the thickest 600W to try to eliminate Model A transmission gear grinding.

5. Some Model A owners swear by using 100% STP. Others who have called STP, report that STP technicians report that 100% STP is not recommended as a gear oil, & that STP is an oil additive. STP does not recommend using more STP in oil other than that recommended by STP.

B. 600W Substitutes:

1. Analysis: In trying to analyze modern gear oils, oil manufacturer's use different specifications & standards, e.g., some English, some metric, some SOS, some ASTM; however, if one investigates, a few standards are used by most, such as the API Gravity inverse value system, where lower API values equate to heavier oils, & higher API values equate to thinner oils; & also the Kinematic cSt values at 100 degrees centigrade (C), where higher cSt values equate to heavier oils. Not all oil companies offer their Kinematic cSt values at 40 degrees C; however, some do.

2. Five (5) Gallon Containers: Even though oil companies are constantly merging & changing names, the several companies such as Shell Omala 680, Mobil 680, BP 680, Chevron/Texaco 680 were found to have properties to match the former 600W. Their API Gravity varies slightly from around 25 to 26, & their cSt at 100 degrees C range from about 37 to 39.8. Today, these 680 lubricants are offered only in 5 gallon containers for about $140.00, or so depending on where bought.

3. Quart Containers: In calling Lubriplate, 1-800-733-4755, even though in past Forum messages, Forum people recommended different Lubriplate lubricants, their Lubriplate salesman & their printed information recommends Lubriplate #8 Machine Oil, which has an API Gravity value of 27.1 & a cSt value at 100 degrees C of 28 which indicates it is slightly lighter than the above 680 oils sold in 5 gallon containers. Lubriplate oil can be purchased in quarts & gallons in addition to 5 gallon containers.

4. Quart Containers: In calling Lucas Oil Company & speaking to Mr. Bob Meifu, Executive Manager, 1-800-342-2512, he reported that years ago their technician analyzed 600W & recommended a blend of two (2) of their products; i.e., 50% Lucas 80W-90 & 50% Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer. With this blend, he reports that one has anti-foaming additives, stop leak protection, anti-rust, & other properties to provide the combined weight & viscosity required to prevent Model A transmission gear grinding. The lighter 80W-90 has an API Gravity value of 25 & a cSt value at 100 degrees C of 15; then the much heavier Lucas Heavy duty Stabilizer has an API Gravity value of 26.5 & a cSt value at 100 degrees C of 110. (He reported that Lucas Oil Company also makes a heavy Hub Oil with an API Gravity value of 23.6 & a cSt value of 65 at 100 degrees C; however, Lucas does not recommend this Lucas Hub Oil for gear oil in Model A transmissions & differentials.

5. In trying to analyze the Lucas Oil blend's Kinematic cSt value at 100 degrees the following website was found on the internet:

http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Mixtures.html

a) One can research manufacturer's oil properties & specifications, plug in their values, & try to determine values of manufacturer's recommended blends of gear oil.

b) Caution: As noted, different oils from different manufacturers should never be blended or mixed.

c) The recommended Lucas Oil blend to replace 600 W has a cSt value at 100 degrees C of 36.6; hence, is very similar to the Shell Omala's l 680, cSt value of 37.

d) In using the above website, in the lower box, if one wanted to achieve a slightly thicker Lucas Oil blend with a cSt value of 39.8, (similar to the heavier Chevron/Meropa 680), one would blend 45.77% of Lucas 80W090 with 54.23% of Lucas Heavy duty Oil stabilizer.

6. Hopes this helps individual Model A owners in trying to locate a transmission gear oil to try to reduce transmission gear grinding.

[Art Bjornestad]

Back in the 1970's I sold perhaps 800 gallons of 600w oil. I bought it in 55 gallon drums from a Mobil oil distributor.. The barrels were marked 600w steam cylinder oil. I shipped this stuff all over the US for about 9 years. No complaints and lots of reorders.

You should not use any type of hypoid oil as it works exactly as it was designed to do.....run off the gear faces. The stuff you want to use clings like crazy.

[Mike V. Florida]

600W is a product name now owned by Mobil,

"The Mobil Cylinder Oil brand of lubricants represents the earliest lubricant product marketed by our Corporation's predecessor companies. 600W Cylinder Oil was produced by the Vacuum Oil Company in the second half of the 19th century and was a breakthrough product of its time. Continual upgrading and application of the latest base oil and additive technology has maintained this product series as a leader in its application areas."

[700rpm]

I bought some 600W equivalent from my local Model A parts guy, and replaced the foamy stuff in my trans this afternoon. I'll give you all a report in a couple weeks on how that worked out.

[Steam Engine Pete]

I own a steam engine and always have the Mobil 600W on hand. Been thinking about putting it in my A but have not yet. I do run it in the differential on my TT truck. Going to try it in the A in the next few days when I get it in to service it. My local dealer keeps 600W on hand in 5 gallon pails. Runs about $75-80 for a 5 gallon pail. I usually buy 20-25 gallons a year so I could just as well run a few pints in the A and see how it works.

Thanks,
Pete

[Kevin in NJ]

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An interesting step through of comparing oil and the viscosity, but what about intended function?

The model A needs an oil that sticks to the gears and does not press out under the pressures of the straight cut gears. So how do all these combinations of oil compare to what needs to be lubricated. It is not about foaming, it is about keeping the gears and bearings properly lubricated so they do not wear.

I am not an oil expert, but based on what I have been told about how the oil works these are issues that need to be considered.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Kevin,


When recently investigating gear oil, the first question asked was if they were familiar with the vintage Ford & Chevrolet transmission gears & the former 600 W.


According to those technicians that I spoke to, for the past 30 years or so they have been asked these very same questions from vintage car owners.


The specifications & information they provided above is from highly technical laboratory technicians who in accordance with American Petroleum Institute Standards, (API) have analysized & reproduced all of the properties of the former 600W gear oil according to recoginzed ASTM standards as opposed to just producing gear oil for modern day cars.


If I would have had any inkling that these oil company technicians blended gear oils like Aunt Jemina under a persimmon tree, to make vintage 600W, I would have hung up.

[dumb person]

Hypoid oil squeezes out... So if i diluted the oil with modern 80w-90 hypoid to make it lighter this is a mistake?

[Kurt in NJ]

I know from reading on the Mobile site that there is 600w steam cyl oil ---it lists worm gears in it's applications, then there is the 600 series of oils that lists spur gears and bevel gears in it's applications, although lately it seems the 600 series of oils has gone synthetic ( http://www.mobilindustrial.com/IND/E...s_shc_gear.pdf ), for me it is not a problem as I have a 5 gal pail of the old mineral kind

The Mobile 600W oil doesn't list anything other than worm gears in it's application-- http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...nder_Oils.aspx perhaps originally the steam cyl oil and the gear oil were the same but as knowledge was gained the products diverged into something more suitable for the different uses

The oil in the 600 series that I have feels, and smells like what I have drained out of old trans and rears --and when it is cold it is hard to shift(in freezing temp),but after 500 feet in 1st it shifts fine

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi,

In going back to message #1 above, it was mentionned by several petroleum technicians that there once was a 600W in the 1920's & 1930's that had very heavy detailed viscosities.

Just like years ago, Coca-Cola had very detailed ingredients, with one being cocaine, another, sugar; however, the same Coca-Cola name is still here today, but the ingredients have changed -- it has no cocaine in it & it has corn syrup.

Like the name Coca-Cola, the "name" 600W is still here today, but according to some manufacturer's laboratory tests, today's advertised 600W is not the same as the "heavy" 600W of the 1920's & 1930's.

Told again by technicians, gear oil today, sold with the name 600 or 600W, is "lighter" than the heavier 600W of the 1920's & 1930's.

As mentionned in #1 above, to obtain "heavy" gear oil properties similar to that of the old 600W of the 1920's & 1930's, one has to obtain the ISO 680 Grade gear oil which has a viscosity cSt value at 100 degrees Centigrade of approximately 37 to 39.8 made by Shell Omala 680, Mobil 680, Chevron/Texaco 680, BP 680 etc., which as of today, come in 5 gallon pails. (For example, today's Mobil's modern 600W is lighter with a cSt value of only 27; however their 680 has a value of 35.8, closer to value of the blend recommended by Lucas Oil Compainies-- also if one investigates different websites, the cSt values for one manufacture may vary slightly from 1 to 1-1/2 points).

Just in case one wants to try to blend the gear oils of a single manufacturer for their Model A gear boxes, a website for estimating cSt values is listed above in message #1; however, it is highly recommended to call the manufacturer's 1-800 numbers on the internet to verify if "your" particular gear oil blend is recommended by them as opposed to guessing what will work.

Todays petroleum specifications & ingredients are constantly being altered, especially with the addition of synthetic lubricants -- as they change, please call the petroleum technicians to verify what has changed.


Hope this helps.

[jimvette59]

I have a question ? What happened to the SAE specifications established in the early teens ? Does it apply to the viscosity of the lubrication, ie: oil, grease, lubricants ?

[H. L. Chauvin]

Jim,

Wikipedia has their SAE history since the early 1900's through today; & their website is as follows:

http://www.sae.org/

[deuce295]

Has anyone ever used Redline Shookproof Heavy gearlube. I used it in my Harley gearbox and it made a huge dfference in the smoothness of it's operation. Just curious.

Jim

[Dodge]

I use it in my Model T with ruxtell rear end and it has never shifted better and its
heavy enough that it doesn't leak out. I haven't tried it in a Model A

[Brobrian]

Wow!
I've been following this whole discussion for days now and have included that we have two types of recommendations: anecdotal and technical. There are stories of what has worked or not, and there are technical recommendations. I guess I'll have to choose between keeping the "not recommended" Lucas Hub oil which has indeed quieted my gearbox and made shifting easier, or mixing Lucas oil treatment with 90 weight gear oil as prescribed above.
BTW thanks to all you petroleum experts for your contributions. I had no idea so much science went in to matching lubricants to their applications.

[MALAK]

Some good info H. L. Chauvin. There have been several threads on this the past couple days and it seems you did a good job of bringing it all together. I especially like the viscosity calculator. I use MobileGear 636 (renamed to Mobilgear 600 XP 680). Luckily, I got this about 8 years ago and, as I recall, only paid about $40. The price sure has gone up.

I have no complaints as to shifting with the MobilGear 680.

Can anyone tell my why such a heavy gear oil is needed in the differential? It's internal construction is similar to that of any modern differential using 80w-90, 85w-140, or similar.

Tom