T86 clutch and pressure plate

[Hivolt5.0]

I need some recommendations on which clutch and pressure plate to use in my '57 Ranchero. It has a 312 with a T86/OD transmission. I was driving the Ranchero this morning with my kids and the clutch just quit working. The pressure plate is not disengaging the clutch. The clutch Z-bar is actuating the clutch fork, but nothing else is working. Fortunately I was pulling into the parking lot of a store when it happened. My wife was able to come get the kids and a buddy helped me trailer the Ranchero home.

thanks in advance for the help.

[Oldmics]

A bit unusual that a clutch would fail without some kinda warning.

I use an 11 inch Borg style behind my Y Block.

Before you start dissassembling,check the "Z" bar.They have been known to tear the welds loose causing loss of enough motion to properly activate the clutch fork.

It will appear to move but may not be moving far enough due to a weld breaking and causing an angle change of the "Z" bar rod attachment ears.

Inspect the "Z" bar with a good light to see it has no damange.

Oldmics

[Hivolt5.0]

Thanks Oldmics! I'll definitely inspect that. I sure hope that is the problem as it is something I can fix without spending money.

[40cpe]

Hey Dave, I hate to hear that. If it turns out to be something in the bell housing, I hope it is a linkage or throw-out bearing. Pulling the transmission is a bummer though.

[craig]

Maybe the fork pivot in the bellhousing broke

[Hivolt5.0]

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Well, a buddy came over and helped me check out the transmission linkage. First I checked to see if the Z-bar had any issues. All of the brackets looked and felt solid. There was some movement where the Z-bar attaches to the motor though. Then, I tried adjusting rod that actuates the clutch fork. There is no inspection cover on the bell housing so I could watch the throw out bearing working on the clutch (engine off). Next, I decided to go ahead and remove the Z-bar just to make sure it was in good condition. As you can see from the picture it has been welded on before and they were holding strong.



The brass bushings on the motor side have seen better days though. They're the two on the left.



The two on the right are from the frame mount. After cleaning all the grease out I decided to swap the bushings (put the better ones on the motor side) just to see if that made any difference. Got it all installed and pumped a lot of grease through the Z-bar.

After we got it all together my buddy depressed the clutch and started the engine. Then he tried to shift the transmission into any gear and it would not budge. With the engine off, you can move the shifters into a gear so that tells me the transmission itself isn't jammed. I'm guessing their the pressure plate or throwout bearing has some issues??? Guess I'll be pulling the tranny to try and figure out what is going on.

Fun, fun.

[darrell]

its almost always the pressure plate in cases like this.

[Paul Selfe]

I had a similar 56 V8 3 speed OD. that the same thing happened to. Turned out to be a spring in the center of the clutch disk that dislodged and jammed it up. New clutch disk fixed the problem. Paul Selfe.

[Hivolt5.0]

Thanks Darrell and Paul. I plan on pulling the transmission next week to see what is going on. As you all have experienced before, I just got the Ranchero running after having carb issues and now this happens. Such is life I suppose. I need to change out the synchros in the tranny anyway so I'll just try to get all of this stuff fixed so that I will not have to pull the trans again at a later date.

[49merclover]

good luck ,partner.did you try making the clutch adjustment rod longer?
mike

[Hivolt5.0]

Well, Paul wins the prize. He nailed the problem with the clutch spring. I pulled the transmission yesterday and as soon as I pulled the pressure plate I saw the spring lodged in places it shouldn't be. You can see how mangled the spring is in the picture.



The flywheel and pressure plate friction surfaces aren't too bad. I'm going to replace the pressure plate and throwout bearing while I have it apart.





The transmission is a dirt mess. I think every seal on it was leaking. haha







It looks like the rear main is leaking a bit too, or maybe the oil pan gasket or some combination of the two. Is there an "easy" way to replace these seals without pulling the motor???? This is my first experience with a Y block so I'm looking for some education.



When I took the starter off I notice two mounting ears had broken off. Is there a way to fix this??? I plan on taking it by the local starter repair shop and see what he says too.



I'm not sure who designed these starters but man what a pain to get out!!! I remember my Dad telling me about starters like this but this was my first experience with one. Not only is it still heavy but it is twice as long as a normal starter!!! Luckily my Daughter was outside so I hollered at her to turn the wheels so I could get some clearance from the tie rods.



I pulled the top cover off the transmission to inspect the gears. I was planning on having the transmission rebuilt in the near future anyway, I just didn't expect it to be this near in the future. I've had problems with transmission jumping out of first while accelerating and there is a bit of grinding shifting into second and third unless you shift it real slow. The teeth looked good but I saw a few spots on the 1st/Reverse gear where it was jumping out.



On a side note, what is the correct color for the transmission? Currently the bellhousing and tail shaft are red. I'm going to clean everything up and paint it before putting it back in the Ranchero and just want to paint everything correctly as per factory specs if possible.

thanks,
David

[scrapiron]

That's been fussed with before, I don't think trans' are usually painted.
You need a new starter, that gear looks wiped out anyway.
And a main seal ,outta' keep you off the streets and out of trouble for a while.

[Ole Don]

If you decide to change the rear seal, pay particular attention to reassembling the lower half. Clean everything you can see with a solvent or acetone. Clean-clean-clean. When the seal half is back in, use a dab of silicone on the top, on the threads of the bolts, and on the top of the rubber side pieces. Smear a dab more across the bottom where the pan gasket is, not a big gob, just a dab, but work in in the cracks with a clean finger. If you have a DA, clean the flywheel with some 220 grit.

[tdlmomowers]

Take the flywheel to a good Automotive machine shop, and have them resurface your flywheel. This way you will know that it is flat and true.

[Hivolt5.0]

Originally Posted by scrapiron

That's been fussed with before, I don't think trans' are usually painted.
You need a new starter, that gear looks wiped out anyway.
And a main seal ,outta' keep you off the streets and out of trouble for a while.

Scrapiron - I guess if there's some debate about the "correct" color of the tranny then I suppose I have some freedom to paint it the way I want! Yeah, I noticed the starter gear was looking pretty bad too. Fortunately all of the teeth on the flywheel are in good shape.

Originally Posted by Ole Don

If you decide to change the rear seal, pay particular attention to reassembling the lower half. Clean everything you can see with a solvent or acetone. Clean-clean-clean. When the seal half is back in, use a dab of silicone on the top, on the threads of the bolts, and on the top of the rubber side pieces. Smear a dab more across the bottom where the pan gasket is, not a big gob, just a dab, but work in in the cracks with a clean finger. If you have a DA, clean the flywheel with some 220 grit.

Ole Don - thank you for the advice on the rear main seal. Pretty much all of the gaskets on the motor are seaping so I'm trying to decide if I want to go ahead and just pull the motor and install new gaskets everywhere now or wait. As always, it's a "time vs money" issue so I've been pricing out gaskets and such. These old cars are domino affect aren't they?!? Oh well, it's still fun and I'm taking pride in the work I do on it.

Originally Posted by tdlmomowers

Take the flywheel to a good Automotive machine shop, and have them resurface your flywheel. This way you will know that it is flat and true.

tdlmomowers - Yeah, I definitely want to take the flywheel to get resurfaced. I was told the local Car Quest will do it but I haven't called to find out yet.

[Hivolt5.0]

Well, spent a little more time cleaning some of the transmission items tonight and decided to inspect the gears inside the transmission a little more closely. Wish I hadn't done that. You'll have to forgive me as I'm not sure what the correct names for all of the pieces in the transmission are. Anyway, the shaft in the bottom of the transmission, where the 1st gear slides into has several chipped teeth. The reverse gear on the "side" of the transmission also has some chipped teeth. So now what?????



Not wanting to have a completely useless evening I decided to "shower some attention" on the transmission crossmember. Man it was covered in at least 1/8 of crude. Got all that off and noticed the welds holding the "tube" to the "end caps" weren't looking too good so I decided to reweld them. I still need to clean up some of the welding slag but I'm happy with the results. I'll wire wheel the whole thing, prime and paint it.

[Hivolt5.0]

Does anyone know if the gear set from a non-overdrive T86 will fit into an R10 overdrive T86?

[Ole Don]

No, but I have an unused gasket and seal kit with a new sychro assembly.
Email me at [email protected]

[Hivolt5.0]

Sent you an email Ole Don.

[Hivolt5.0]

since I'm waiting for some parts and trying to save up some funds for other parts I decided to take some time and clean up some of the items. I cleaned and painted the emergency brake equalizer bracket, clutch fork, drive shaft yoke and the bell housing. What do you think??

Before:


During:


After:

[40cpe]

way to go, Dave. You are a detail machine!

[tdlmomowers]

It's nice to work with clean parts. It will all look great when back together.

[Hivolt5.0]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

way to go, Dave. You are a detail machine!

Thanks Mr. Purser.

Originally Posted by tdlmomowers

It's nice to work with clean parts. It will all look great when back together.

Thanks, I may not know how to act if my hands don't get greasy putting it back together. haha

[Ole Don]

Remember, when working down there, the job is not complete without something in your eye or a finger leaking blood. Such is the enjoyment of old cars.

[Mac VP]

Hivolt....I just noticed your thread on the trans. I recently did that same trans for another customer, so I am familiar with it and the overdrive. FYI...the T86 trans was a Borg Warner unit and unfortunately NONE of the gears will interchange with the regular Ford standard trannies of that era.....except of course any other T86 from another Ford. We normally have most of the gears here and can get other pieces if needed from our other sources.

Judging from your pics.....and it was hard to see much, but I saw jagged teeth on the first gear portion of the cluster gear. You said that the 1st/reverse slider gear was also worn but I didnt see much in the pic. In either case, the wear on these two gears would certainly tend to cause problems with popping out of 1st gear.

We have all the gaskets and seals in fresh stock in case you need any of that. We also do rebuilding if you can't find anyone close to you for the work.

Was the overdrive part working ok?

[georgewarren]

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Things are looking good! I always thought that 312s came with the heavy duty t85. All my 312s had the t85, and my 272 and 292s had a different tranny than the one you have; they had a rectangular side cover (the same as all my flatheads) The only tranny that I had that had a top cover was in a 56 F100. Good luck!

[Hivolt5.0]

Originally Posted by Ole Don

Remember, when working down there, the job is not complete without something in your eye or a finger leaking blood. Such is the enjoyment of old cars.

Haha! Yeah, and when your fingers are the greasiest your nose itches.

Old cars are great.

[Hivolt5.0]

Originally Posted by Mac VP

Hivolt....I just noticed your thread on the trans. I recently did that same trans for another customer, so I am familiar with it and the overdrive. FYI...the T86 trans was a Borg Warner unit and unfortunately NONE of the gears will interchange with the regular Ford standard trannies of that era.....except of course any other T86 from another Ford. We normally have most of the gears here and can get other pieces if needed from our other sources.

Judging from your pics.....and it was hard to see much, but I saw jagged teeth on the first gear portion of the cluster gear. You said that the 1st/reverse slider gear was also worn but I didnt see much in the pic. In either case, the wear on these two gears would certainly tend to cause problems with popping out of 1st gear.

We have all the gaskets and seals in fresh stock in case you need any of that. We also do rebuilding if you can't find anyone close to you for the work.

Was the overdrive part working ok?

Thank you for the info Mac VP. I bought the Ranchero from 40Cpe a few years ago and he has another T86 that I'm going to get from him to hopefully do some gear swapping. I also bought a gasket and synchro set from Ole Don to use in the rebuild. (Thanks guys!!!!!!) Do you think I could rebuild the transmission myself if I have a good manual?? Like most people, I have more time than money so I try to do as much as I can on these projects.

As for the OD portion, I've never had it working. 40Cpe said that it whined some over 45 mph but it wouldn't go into OD when I purchased it from him. We both think there are some wiring issues. You can hear the relay clicking on the firewall and I have a new kickdown switch to install.

[Hivolt5.0]

Originally Posted by georgewarren

Things are looking good! I always thought that 312s came with the heavy duty t85. All my 312s had the t85, and my 272 and 292s had a different tranny than the one you have; they had a rectangular side cover (the same as all my flatheads) The only tranny that I had that had a top cover was in a 56 F100. Good luck!

Thanks George! Yes, I believe you are correct that 312s came with the T85 from the factory. The Ranchero originally had a 292. 40Cpe found the 312 in junk yard (I believe), rebuilt it and installed it in the Ranchero.

[Mac VP]

HiVolt....I hesitate to suggest that anyone attempt to rebuild an overdrive on their own the very first time. Even if you have all day long to mess with it, you can easily get some of the parts installed incorrectly.....or forget a small part. Ask me how I know!

Ford had a halfway decent shop manual in those years that showed how to repair the OD trans. You have to look a little harder to find one that is specific to the T-86 version, although the basic parts are the same for the OD section. Since you will have to tear down the entire trans to get to the cluster gear etc, having the correct pictures for the T-86 would help. You can see the basic parts drawing on our website. Here is the link:

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/F...60-272-292.jpg

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/F...D_1955to56.jpg

Let us know if you need any help on parts.

[Hivolt5.0]

Well, I'm still trying to save up the necessary funds to get the T86/OD transmission rebuilt and get a new clutch and pressure plate. However, I did pick up a couple of 3 speed transmissions from 40Cpe (Thank you!!) in the hopes one of them would tide me over until I can get all of the necessary pieces to rebuild the T86/OD. Upon inspecting the two 3 speeds, one had some chipped gears and the other one had perfect gears. Yeah! But the transmissions had been sitting for awhile and after researching the cost of a new gasket kit and bearings I decided to rebuild the good transmission with new gaskets and such. I was able to take it apart and clean all the shumtz out of it. The inside of the tail shaft was especially nasty. I also got the driveshaft and trans cross-member cleaned up and painted. (I did learn to not use ACE Hardware brand black paint. I wanted gloss black and ended up with dull charcoal grey. Oh well.) Anyway, here are some pictures.

Transmission before (obviously)




Here she is all cleaned up. The case is still empty, haven't bought the gasket set yet, but I decided to mock it up just to see what it will look like.




And the rebuilt starter. I still need to paint the case though.

[Hivolt5.0]

Well, I finally got the 3 speed transmission rebuilt (new bearings, synchros, gaskets, etc) and will be installing it within the next couple days. I just have one question, what gear lube should I use in it? Is it ok to use Synthetic gear oil?

Your inputs will be greatly appreciated.

thanks,
David

[Ole Don]

Part of what makes sythetics so good, is the ability for them to seek places to lubricate. That means it will also seek a place to come out and mess up your new paint. I like plain old 85 - 90 gear lube. In Florida, maybe even 90 - 140 if you drive it a lot in the heat.

[Hivolt5.0]

Thanks Ole Don! I bought some gear oil based on your recommendation.

Well, I was able to get the transmission installed last Thursday evening with the help of a good friend. The install went well and looks good. The only issue I have is when you press the clutch pedal it just doesn't feel like anything is happening. The Z-bar doesn't seem to be relaying the clutch pedal movement to the clutch fork. I ordered some new bushings for the Z-bar, the ones in there now are worn out. I hope that solves the issue. Anyway, I know you guys have probably seen these steps before on your own rides, but I'm pretty excited about it.

Got the transmission back together with no left over parts and it spins very nicely.






I bought the clutch and pressure plate from Bob's Automotive. What a great guy and he has a huge collection of NOS parts for many different years of Ford vehicles. Here's link to his ad on the Ford Barn.
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...pressure+plate



One of the "oh no" issues I had was with the inspection cover for the bell housing. I didn't have one so I posted a "Want" ad on both the Ford Barn and the HAMB. A HAMBer contacted me first with one and I bought. After getting it all cleaned up I realized it won't work. The cover is for a different model bell housing. Does anyone know what motor bell housing this inspection cover would work with? I had a hard time finding one and I'm thinking about modifying this one to work, but if someone needs this cover please let me know. I hate to cut up a perfect cover if someone needs one.



You can see it won't work with my bell housing. Different shape and bolt pattern.



Last picture I have of the bell housing and such all bolted to the motor.