So, ...how many Model-As can actually do the 'Three S's reliably?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Paul Shinn has produced another quality video that topics on something I have preached for a long time. Go have a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB6ReOj7qEE&t=358s

Everywhere you look, it seems there are ads that have 'restored' Model-As for sale for $10k-$20k, ....but, -can these cars reliably Start, Stop, and Steer on a daily basis just like they did some 90 years ago? The truthful answer is "No!". The reason is simple. Whether we like to admit it or not, in reality these so-called Model-As were really just 'R&R-ed' (Repaired & Repainted) instead of truly being 'Restored'. Paul does a fantastic job of explaining all of this in his YouTube video where he found himself taking one of those 'restored' Model-As, and actually restoring what components were just repaired before by the previous owner so that it would be reliable being driven on a daily basis. A touchy topic for some hobbyists, but take note of what Paul is saying when discussing the actual $$ value of a Model-A that has been 'sorted'.

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[Patrick L.]

I've not yet looked at Paul's video.
It seems to me that a vehicle doesn't have to be restored to be able to perform the 3 S's. If its been repaired properly it should handle those tasks quite well.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

I've not yet looked at Paul's video.
It seems to me that a vehicle doesn't have to be restored to be able to perform the 3 S's. If its been repaired properly it should handle those tasks quite well.

Originally Posted by katy

My '31 CCPU was refurbished, not restored. It can start, steer and stop w/out any problems.

In reality, my first-hand experiences counter this. The intention of the word "reliably" does not imply that it can do it randomly.

Reliably should infer that between tune-ups or maintenance ops it should be able to immediately start and drive every time, -and on every day for the whole time between those maintenance operations. For example, it was easy enough for a Model-A to reliably go 5,000 miles between services (tune-up, brake adjustment, et/al). If the car were driven 25 miles each day for 200 consecutive day, that is roughly 5,000 miles, -or a little over 6 months. A new Model-A could easily do that. A well maintained Model-A back then could do that!

So how many 'restored' Model-As can be driven 25 miles each day for 200 consecutive days without the carburetor being removed & cleaned out, the ignition points files or fiddled with, the brakes adjusted, or the clutch adjusted, -or fluid levels (coolant, engine oil, transmission/rear end lube) replenished because of leaks? Most hobbyists if they are honest will tell you they often spend an hour or so with their 'restored' car just to get ready to drive it on a tour. This never happened back in the day. Now some will bark and say it is because we don't drive them every day. Maybe so, but my lawnmower only gets run once a week however I don't have to spend time before I use it each week either. Same thing applies with boats or motorhomes that are occasionally driven.


Paul's point (-and I agree) is that we all have seen (-time & time again) a car that is called 'restored' yet when purchased and driven some, it does not meet the criteria of a "Restored vehicle" (-returned to a condition equal or greater than when it was manufactured). Many/most of us here are the crème of the crop when it relates to maintaining our own Model-As, so this typically does not apply to our cars but then again, our numbers here are small in comparison to the number of hobbyists in the Model-A world. Therefore this is not really pointing the finger as us who are responding. Insurance companies are the ones that are setting the value of our vehicles based on the 'non-restored' cars on the market.

Again, it is my position that if someone cannot drive their Model-A for at least several thousand miles without the need to repair something (anything!!) that is related to it being operated just as Henry designed it to be, then somewhere in there will be something related to those three S's. Paul prepped his Model-A to be a reliable car that he could jump in and go anywhere at a moments notice without any work needing to be done beforehand.

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[Licensed to kill]

[QUOTE=BRENT in 10-uh-C;1960799]In reality, my first-hand experiences counter this. The intention of the word "reliably" does not imply that it can do it randomly.

Reliably should infer that between tune-ups or maintenance ops it should be able to immediately start and drive every time, -and on every day for the whole time between those maintenance operations. For example, it was easy enough for a Model-A to reliably go 5,000 miles between services (tune-up, brake adjustment, et/al). If the car were driven 25 miles each day for 200 consecutive day, that is roughly 5,000 miles, -or a little over 6 months. A new Model-A could easily do that. A well maintained Model-A back then could do that!

So how many 'restored' Model-As can be driven 25 miles each day for 200 consecutive days without the carburetor being removed & cleaned out, the ignition points files or fiddled with, the brakes adjusted, or the clutch adjusted, -or fluid levels (coolant, engine oil, transmission/rear end lube) replenished because of leaks? Most hobbyists if they are honest will tell you they often spend an hour or so with their 'restored' car just to get ready to drive it on a tour. This never happened back in the day. Now some will bark and say it is because we don't drive them every day. Maybe so, but my lawnmower only gets run once a week however I don't have to spend time before I use it each week either. Same thing applies with boats or motorhomes that are occasionally driven.

I don't follow what all of that has to do with the 3 S's. A car can leal like a sieve from every seal, windows won't roll down, and be full of bondo but still "
start, stop and steer" perfectly if that was the owners priority. While it's true that VERY few would ignore all these issues and put the 3 S's in top condition but the pint is that they are not really related.

Paul's point (-and I agree) is that we all have seen (-time & time again) a car that is called 'restored' yet when purchased and driven some, it does not meet the criteria of a "Restored vehicle" (-returned to a condition equal or greater than when it was manufactured). Many/most of us here are the crème of the crop when it relates to maintaining our own Model-As, so this typically does not apply to our cars but then again, our numbers here are small in comparison to the number of hobbyists in the Model-A world. Therefore this is not really pointing the finger as us who are responding. Insurance companies are the ones that are setting the value of our vehicles based on the 'non-restored' cars on the market.

That's not the definition of "restored". "restored" does not include "greater than" when out was manufactured. If you make something "greater than when it was manufactured" it's "modified" or "hot rodded" depending on the modification.

Again, it is my position that if someone cannot drive their Model-A for at least several thousand miles without the need to repair something (anything!!) that is related to it being operated just as Henry designed it to be, then somewhere in there will be something related to those three S's. Paul prepped his Model-A to be a reliable car that he could jump in and go anywhere at a moments notice without any work needing to be done beforehand.

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Not sure what "several thousand miles" means exactly but how many miles of warranty do you provide on your restorations?. New cars come with MANY thousand mile warranty (50,000??). I think I know where you are coming from but I don't subscribe to the notion that a car has to be restored down to the last bolt to be safe and reliable. I Do agree that sellers like to throw the word "restored" around pretty freely and that few cars are actually TOTALLY restored and understand why that would bother those that actually DO do complete restorations, I'm not yet convinced that a COMPLETE restoration is required for a very safe and reliable car or that a complete restoration guarantees a safe and reliable car. Even with all of todays technology, manufacturers will turn out a turd once in a while that just can stay out of the shop from brand new.

[ronn]

Ill bite. 30% comfortably..............

[Ray64]

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Enjoyed the videos Thanks

[kenparker0703]

My '31 Blue Coupe" can do the "Three S's reliabily", but is no longer a daily driver. Woody can do it too.

[WHN]

I am a little confused?

Are we saying a car has to be completely restored to show quality to be considered a safe daily driver?

I have a car that the body has never been off the frame. However, everything else has at one point or another. Rear end, transmission, rebuilt engine, completely professional rebuilt front end and braking system, new springs and new correct shocks, new tires, new correct radiator, new Zenith carburetor, rebuilt distributor and generator, leakless water pump, new aluminum two blade fan, new wiring. The list goes on and on.

Would a car like this not be considered a Safe Driver. Oh! It has also won many awards at local car shows in the pre 1930 class.

I don’t call our car restored, just well maintained as you would your modern car.

Enjoy.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by WHN

I am a little confused?

Are we saying a car has to be completely restored to show quality to be considered a safe daily driver?

I don’t call our car restored, just well maintained as you would your modern car.

Enjoy.

Hmm, If we maintained an A as we do our modern cars, it would quickly become useless yard art! My VW Diesel (what a sweet little engine!) gets an oil change every 10,000 miles. There is nothing to grease, never have to adjust the brakes, etc. Most, if not all, gas cars have 100,000 mile spark plugs. No points to adjust and replace. No carburetors to adjust and rebuild. No need to repack wheel bearings. And the list goes on.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Hmm, If we maintained an A as we do our modern cars, it would quickly become useless yard art! My VW Diesel (what a sweet little engine!) gets an oil change every 10,000 miles. There is nothing to grease, never have to adjust the brakes, etc. Most, if not all, gas cars have 100,000 mile spark plugs. No points to adjust and replace. No carburetors to adjust and rebuild. No need to repack wheel bearings. And the list goes on.

Following the manufactures recommended services. 1929 oil change 500 miles, 2020 oil change 7,500 miles.

Whether a 2020 Ford Escape or a 1929 Model A Ford coupe, if you maintain the car correctly, as per the recommended service intervals, any car will last longer.

Our Volvo’s last for years and are past down to other family members. 200,000 miles is easy. 20 years old, not a problem.

[Mister Moose]

Originally Posted by WHN

Our Volvo’s last for years and are past down to other family members. 200,000 miles is easy. 20 years old, not a problem.

You must not drive in the snow much. We do, and our cars literally dissolve in 12-16 years. The last pickup rotted out the bed, spring shackles, and cab mounts. The last Subaru rotted out front suspension parts and the engine X cradle, along with serious body rot. The Toyota pickup before that rotted out most of the frame, so much so one wheel slipped aft and almost decoupled the drive shaft.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Mister Moose

You must not drive in the snow much. We do, and our cars literally dissolve in 12-16 years. The last pickup rotted out the bed, spring shackles, and cab mounts. The last Subaru rotted out front suspension parts and the engine X cradle, along with serious body rot. The Toyota pickup before that rotted out most of the frame, so much so one wheel slipped aft and almost decoupled the drive shaft.

You have to wash the car in the winter.

Talk about snow! We lived in central New York for 25 years. Drove to Syracuse every work day. Our 1976 Volvo DL245 had some rust on it in 1986 when we traded it in, but from than until now, no rust problems on any of our cars. Our 2009 XC70 is now with our daughter in Saratoga Springs, New York. No rust yet. Nine Volvo’s, only one showed any rust.

You don’t know what winter snow is until you live in Up-State New York.

126 inches of snow last year in Syracuse. 67 days of measurable snow.

Enjoy.

[Jack Shaft]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Hmm, If we maintained an A as we do our modern cars, it would quickly become useless yard art! My VW Diesel (what a sweet little engine!) gets an oil change every 10,000 miles. There is nothing to grease, never have to adjust the brakes, etc. Most, if not all, gas cars have 100,000 mile spark plugs. No points to adjust and replace. No carburetors to adjust and rebuild. No need to repack wheel bearings. And the list goes on.

Computerized machining processes and engine design made the oil slick down the middle of the road a thing of the past.Its truly amazing the advancement made..

[Jeff P. / MN]

Brent, Excellent video, thank you for posting. I am fortunate that my Model A was RESTORED by a retired airline mechanic and instructor of same. His work and attention to detail was beyond fastidious. With proper maintenance I will benefit from his work as long as I am the caretaker.

[Bob Bidonde]

Both of my Model A's can do the 3 S's, but the steering is by Armstrong! I have been experimenting for several years with different combinations of front tire pressures and steering gear lube, but as I mature over 78, my body has less Armstrong, and the Model A's steering has too much. I am currently running with a combo of grease + SAE 140 + Teflon in the steering gearbox, and 30 psig front tire pressure.

I find 35 psig gives too harsh a reaction to road bumps, it is easier to steer. It would be fantastic if some entrepreneur made a numerically lower set of steering gears.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

I find 35 psig gives too harsh a reaction to road bumps, it is easier to steer.

I wonder how switching to radials would affect this tradeoff.

[MikeK]

Paul Shinn's video was nice, and he still has a flip phone?

If the three S'es were Stall, Shimmy, and Short-circuit I'd say 50%. Without those maladies half the posts here would disappear.

[alexiskai]

What I appreciate about this approach is that attaining the 3 S's is very much within the capabilities of most owners. Rebuilding the steering, drivetrain, brakes, electrical, and fuel delivery can (mostly) be done with basic tools. That's not to say that it's easy, or that you're likely to do it correctly the first time. But you can do it until you get it right.

It's also the case that the 3 S's are invisible – certainly to casual inspection and mostly to close inspection as well. Can't tell until you drive it. So there's no incentive to correct them if your intent is to produce a car that unskilled onlookers will compliment you on.

[denis4x4]

Since March, I've been using my hot rod A's on almost a daily basis. This photo was taken right after Thanksgiving at the local grocery store. The Chevy is owned by a guy passing through from Utah and the Cobra is a neighbor's. I use the '29 CCPU (avatar) when I know that I'm buying more than a quart of milk. So yes, my A's Stop, Start and Steer and they get used almost on a daily basis.

[Jack Shaft]

Depends .. some value the mechanical correctness, others appearance.. some want both, others settle for neither.. what's interesting is how ever beautiful in engineering or design the machine is inanimate, it only reflects the whims of the owner.

Bob, try a 53 to 56 ford f1 steering box if you haven't already, 17 to 1 ratio.. you seem pretty handy, you can modify it yourself to fit, other than machining the sector shaft.