Columbia vs Mitchell overdrive

[dean333]

I guess it’s an age old question, which is “better” for my 34 sedan with a 59AB, Columbia or Mitchell overdrive? Thanks All!

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by dean333

I guess it’s an age old question, which is “better” for my 34 sedan with a 59AB, Columbia or Mitchell overdrive? Thanks All!

Depends on what you want, Mitchell is probably better, Columbia is probably more original.
Bill

[CA Victoria]

The Mitchell is synchronized, more efficient to shift on the fly to split gears in hill country.

[cas3]

I believe you have got to cut a hole in the floor to clear a mitchell , then a hump over the hole

[flatmotor40]

Didn't have to cut hole for my Mitchell.

[jimTN]

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Ford torque tube was never designed to carry the rotational stress of a gear drive. When shifted properly, a Columbia works just fine. Using 34 housings, a spacer plate must be added. I used a Eaton vac shift button on mine attached to the gear shift handle.

[blucar]

My '36 coupe came with a Columbia, early style '36.. I did not care for the early mechanical vacuum switch and the fact that the early models were prone to problems.
Every time I note a topic on the "Barn" and/or EFV8 Forum about Columbia's I usually add a comment.
From my point of view, I like the Columbia's, I converted the one under my '36 to a '47-48 unit in 1955, I bought the car in 1952. I used a combination of '36 parts, the banjo and torque tube which is possible on a '35-36, not so on the earlier cars.
I used a '47-48 Columbia complete with the '47-48 axles and axle housing, '37-38 radius bars and '39 drums. The '47-48 axle housings have better suspension, tube shocks and provisions for a panhard bar. Yes the axle width is two inches wider than the '36, however, they don't need to be cut down because an added inch on each side is not a big deal.
The shifting mechanism for the '46-48 Columbia's is electric over vacuum, very user friendly requiting a tap on the toggle switch and a quick tap on the clutch, down shifting is a simple quick tap on the clutch with a quick release of the throttle.
The Columbia is a variation of the very common truck two speed rear axle which has been used in commercial trucks for over seventy years.
I have driven my '36 over 90K in the seventy years I have owned the car, the only problem I have ever had with the Columbia was the failure of a brass spacer within the unit that caused the right axle to briefly seize.

[dean333]

Thanks Bill. I’m waiting for quotes from John Connelly and Mitchell Mfg.

[koates]

You would have to own an early columbia unit to fit your 34 rear correctly or modify a later unit to suit. It would also likely require rebuilding which is expensive. The Mitchell is good. I have fitted two of these to 1936 Fords but had to cut a hole in the rear floor which you may have to do on your 1934 sedan. As mentioned by others the Mitchell has synchros which makes changing easier. You can have cable operation or a rod and lever. No electrics or vacuum required which might be a good thing.. Two ratios are available. Regards, Kevin.

[Automotive Stud]

Originally Posted by bbrocksr

Depends on what you want, Mitchell is probably better, Columbia is probably more original.
Bill

This pretty much sums it up for me. I have a Mitchell in my '47 coupe. I did have to notch the floor a small bit under the rear seat otherwise it would hit on bumps, especially with passengers in the back. Hooking it up is as simple as a pull cable. There isn't really much to go wrong. You could easily spend the same or more to have a functioning columbia that would still be 75 years old and have a more finicky operating system.

[cdan34]

I likewise have enjoyed the Columbia for many thousands of miles. I've used it in a '34 Cabriolet and 5w Coupe and currently building a '39 Lincoln Coupe with one. In all of these rear ends I've used 9 inch Ford axels with splined end gear. The only problem I experienced was the same as Bill with the brass washer. When these units are set up properly you're good to go.

[glennpm]

I have a 37-41 version of the Columbia in my 32 roadster and love it. My rear end had 3.78 ratio gears. I replaced the cork clutch material with nylon, a kit that Connelly sells. There is much less noise when shifted and barely noticeable.


Check here on the Barn for other re-builders in addition to John.

[solidaxle]

I can't comment on the Mitchell. The Columbia I just installed works fantastic. I mounted the 37 valve body to the K-member on the passenger side and activate the main valve off the clutch cross shaft with a rod and lever. Lo/Hi are controlled by a cable with the pull handle in the dash choke hole.

[oldredford]

IMO The mitchel over drive is better.

[drolston]

Uncomfortable engine rpm at Interstate cruise (65) had me looking at Mitchell versus Columbia.

I went to Plan "B". A big inch engine (284) with high compression (Offy 425), plus a cam with good low end torque (Schneider 248f) and tall rear end gears (3.25). Works like a champ in my '41 Coupe. Should work even better in your lighter '34.

[flatmotor40]

I love my Mitchell got the 37% od,an d the cable shift

[JWL]

There is no comparison when a robust OD is important. The Columbia is fragile and requires operators with a soft touch. The Mitchell can handle substantial abuse.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by JWL

There is no comparison when a robust OD is important. The Columbia is fragile and requires operators with a soft touch. The Mitchell can handle substantial abuse.

And another big advantage to the Mitchell, it adds FAR less unsprung weight to the suspension. The weight is added to a less critical area also. A very big advantage to ride quality and handling.

[Automotive Stud]

Maybe not the most practical option, but one worth discussing to muddy the water a bit is the Borg Warner overdrive. Lloyd and probably others used to mount them in the torque tube like the Mitchell and they can be electrically operated from the driver's seat. Like the Columbia you still have some of the inherent drawbacks of an old design and probably a less rugged unit. But if you can find one or have the machinery to build your own it might be a very cost effective alternative.

[blucar]

I am afraid that I have to take exceptions to the comments about the Columbia being fragile.
In 1954 I removed the original 21 stud engine from my '36 coupe, it had a 103 K and was getting a little tired, had to do a valve job on it so it would start on cold winter mornings.
I replaced the engine with a well built 58AB engine with a dual Offie Super manifold, Offie heads .060 over bore, 1/4" stroke, a Weber F.1 cam and H-C ignition. I street raced the car on a regular basis, and from time to time I would run the car at the local drag strip. I destroyed several transmissions, got so good at repairing/replacing transmissions that I would R&R a tranny in less than two hours.
I would make a guess that the quality of the Columbia shifts were in direct relationship to the quality of the engine and the available inches of vacuum it produced.

[bobH]

Originally Posted by Automotive Stud

Maybe not the most practical option, but one worth discussing to muddy the water a bit is the Borg Warner overdrive. Lloyd and probably others used to mount them in the torque tube like the Mitchell and they can be electrically operated from the driver's seat. Like the Columbia you still have some of the inherent drawbacks of an old design and probably a less rugged unit. But if you can find one or have the machinery to build your own it might be a very cost effective alternative.

And, another one that used to be very common... Volvo Laycock de Normanville. Exceptionally simple to use. Common in lower-powered old Fords (and others) Not sure if it would stand up to a real strong engine and heavy foot. In days long gone by, I've actually used both the Borg Warner, and the Volvo. Both were good at the time. Given a choice of these two, I'd probably try to find a BW. Opinion...

[jake197000]

i put a toggle switch in so i can turn off the columbia so it doesnt down shift every time i push in the clutch

[danliveshere]

If you’re getting a quote from John that’s great. The comments about the Columbia being fragile is a little misleading. The fragile components are now overcome with a “bulletproof “ rebuild with new design on some key components.

[glennpm]

Originally Posted by jake197000

i put a toggle switch in so i can turn off the columbia so it doesnt down shift every time i push in the clutch

If you leave it engaged, at least with my 37-41 unit; it will not disengage with the clutch is released.


Glenn

[larrys40]

Originally Posted by dean333

Thanks Bill. I’m waiting for quotes from John Connelly and Mitchell Mfg.

In my opinion the Columbia is the way to go. We have one in our 40 and it is a wonderful thing. I have installed over 15 Mitchells in Model A’s for folks and my own and I love them in A’s. However, the v8 applicable years the Columbia is the smoother better choice. If you don’t like the early controls the 40 style work great with the small pull out cable to operate the changer on the steering box.

I recently had my first encounter with a Mitchell cable unit and it is very cumbersome compared to the Columbia. I would most definitely prefer the Columbia over that setup. I agree with bluecar that the columbias when Bullet proofed and all rebuilt well along with the rear axle is very solid. I’ve put mine through some inopportune rough times and it had done well. It is a super highway cruiser. I have Mitchell’s in my Model A’s and Columbia’s in the 40 and will have one in my 48 when completed. Can’t imagine not having the overdrives.

Yes Columbia cores cost a bit and it is also to redo one but it is absolutely worth it. John Connelly does stellar work and is a blessing to those of us that have them. Thanks goodness to all those that put their time effort and talent into doing the specialty things like them. Steve and Cindy Mitchell are awesome as well.
I just prefer them as plan B for the v8’s.
Today was “get out and drive your v8 “ day so we just got back from a great evening cruise.
Happy V8 motoring!
Larry

[petehoovie]

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[QUOTE=Today was “get out and drive your v8 “ day so we just got back from a great evening cruise.
Happy V8 motoring!
Larry[/QUOTE]

[cas3]

I think thats good advise from Larry

[larrys40]

Pete,
Thanks for doing what I couldn’t to my photo of the 40. You made it look great.
Many thanks !5
Larry

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by JWL

There is no comparison when a robust OD is important. The Columbia is fragile and requires operators with a soft touch. The Mitchell can handle substantial abuse.

yup they tested them in a chebby 1 ton truck with a 454

[38 coupe]

The Mitchell auxiliary transmissions units for 1 ton and motorhome use were a different and earlier (and much larger) product. The Mitchell gear splitter was first offered for Model As.


That said, the Mitchell gear splitting is still much stronger than the Columbia by basic design. The Columbia planetary setup has to deal with the torque multiplication from the ring and pinion gears while the Mitchell unit doesn't.

[Jim Hamilton]

Originally Posted by blucar

I have driven my '36 over 90K in the seventy years I have owned the car, the only problem I have ever had with the Columbia was the failure of a brass spacer within the unit that caused the right axle to briefly seize.

I’m new here, hope it’s ok to revive an old thread!
I’m thinking about calling John Connelly to order a bulletproofed Columbia. I’ve been researching options for my stock ‘46 Ford coupe for about a month now. I’ve considered Gear Vendors, Mitchell, Borg Warner and the Columbia. I’m leaning towards the Columbia because of being a Ford option, not having to modify the torque tube or floor.
I’d like to know if I were to build a fairly hot Flathead, would the bulletproofed Columbia hold up to stresses like maybe weekends at the Newport Hill Climb and an occasional moderate blowing the carbon out from a stoplight?
I’ve read here of a couple of instances of a brass spacer failure. I’ve got a parts list and an exploded view from John Connelly, can someone tell me exactly what the brass spacer is?

[blucar]

I am not completely sure what the purpose of the brass cone shaped "thrust washer" between the inner left axle end and the Columbia gear assembly is for. I do know that the one that failed in my Columbia was badly 'galled" with several high ridges that reduced the clearance in the gear set.
I was on a trip from Vegas to Salt Lake City, a distance of over 400 miles, I was cruising in OD at about the mid point when the right axle locked up putting me in a very hair raising skid. Fortunately the desert was quite flat with minimal barrow pit, so i was able to keep the car under control.. Amen for up-graded '47-48 suspension under the car.
After the car came to a stop off of the road I checked it over, everything appeared to be OK so I slowly continued on towards SLC. I did not engage the Columbia into OD during the balance of the trip to SLC.
I was in SLC for three weeks, then returned to Vegas. I was reluctant to engage the OD, keeping the MPH's down to 55/60.
When I got back to Vegas we pulled the Columbia apart, finding the problem of the chewed up spacer, everything else in the unit was fine, Upon close investigation it appeared that the spacer had been put in backwards, there bye reducing the correct spacing of the gears.
I was able to secure a new spacer from the local Vegas Mercury Dealer, who at the time had a very large stock of Columbia parts.
As a foote note: This event happened in April of 1956, I had gone to SLC to go to work for a Company, the situation did not work out so shortly after I returned to Vegas, we moved to Los Angeles.

[Jim Hamilton]

Thanks Bill, glad you didn’t get hurt or hurt the Ford!
I read a post somewhere that I think was from you about drag racing. If the Columbia is left in direct, out of overdrive, is it safe to say it can handle a hot Flathead in a heavier ‘46 even if it gets fair traction?

Edit, I found it, it was post #20 in this thread from you!
Was this a stock Columbia handling that hot Flatty?

[slowforty]

Congratulations Mr bluecar for your extended owner ship.

My opinion is An OD costs a lot of money and time. I have a basically stock 40 that i use all the time. All year long. I thought about an OD improvement but if I cant put an extra 20 bucks worth of gas in my car in order to drive it. I should sell it. And I drive both my cars at least 2000 a year each.

[Jim Hamilton]

Yeah, it seems all of these overdrive setups are expensive. It’s probably true that my estimation of around $4500 could buy a lot of gas. I prefer to drive this on old state highways for the scenery and the lower speed limits. But even at 55 mph and a stock 3.78 rear gear, stock tire size, the engine is spinning a bit more than I like. I’d also like the option of being able to use interstates and be able to run around 70 without trouble.
I’ve been saving up for quite a while for this, if it works the way I expect, I think I’ll be satisfied with the investment.
It’s interesting that you drive yours year round. Do you do anything special to deal with road salt? Here in Indy they dump a lot of brine and salt. Even when roads get plowed and dry off, they’re all white and powdery. If there’s a way to safely enjoy these cars during the winter I’d do it.

[blucar]

Originally Posted by Jim Hamilton

Thanks Bill, glad you didn’t get hurt or hurt the Ford!
I read a post somewhere that I think was from you about drag racing. If the Columbia is left in direct, out of overdrive, is it safe to say it can handle a hot Flathead in a heavier ‘46 even if it gets fair traction?

Edit, I found it, it was post #20 in this thread from you!
Was this a stock Columbia handling that hot Flatty?

As I have stated in many of my contributions to Columbia Treads here on the Barn, the Columbia under my car is a '47-48 Columbia unit bolted to the stock '36 3.78 banjo assembly with '47-48 axles and axle assemblies.
The shift controls are '47-48 electric over vacuum which provides very smooth, quick shifting.
My late wife really enjoyed driving "Henry" she had no problems using the Columbia, even with the left hand column shift: Another of the many modifications that I made to Henry over the years.

I had my car weighed in 1956 to see just how much it weighted. It weighted a little over 3,200 lb's.. It is a Deluxe car with radio, heater, plus about every Ford accessory in the book.
For the first ten year plus years I had my '36 I used it for daily transportation, I have driven the car through the majority of the eleven Western States, under every weather condition there is, heat, snow and subzero temps, rural roads and Los Angeles traffic.

[Jim Hamilton]

Sounds like a beefed up Columbia should live with a stout Flathead as long as there isn’t any seriously hard launching, reserve OD for 50+ MPH. Keep an eye out for leaks, check the oil, maybe every year or two take the unit off the diff for an inspection.

[highbeams]

There is! Move to Southern California as I did - from Wisconsin. You'll never be mindful of road salt again. PLUS, the Calif. weather is a daily gift! You'll NEVER regret it!

highbeams -

[Jim Hamilton]

Originally Posted by highbeams

There is! Move to Southern California as I did - from Wisconsin. You'll never be mindful of road salt again. PLUS, the Calif. weather is a daily gift! You'll NEVER regret it!

highbeams -

The weather would be something to think about, but if I made a major move it’d probably be Florida. I’m 58 and the way Indy is degrading I don’t see me staying here after retirement. Things aren’t anywhere near good here.
I thought maybe Slowforty had a certain way of dealing with the road salt other than constant washing.

[glennpm]

I have a Columbia in my 32 roadster and love it. I use it all the time 35-40MPH and up. It is a pleasure and in my opinion, period correct. I don't like modifying the frame or torque tube etc.

Glenn

[blucar]

I had a '73 GMC 5500 series in my business for many years, it was a 400 CID V8 w/Clark 5 spd and an Eaton 2 spd rear end. The truck was rated to carry 18K on the rear axle, with a GVW of 30K

The GMC had very similar shift controls as the Columbia under my Ford, only difference was there was no vacuum, everything was electric with solenoids and a small electric servo motor mounted on the axle housing and a control switch mounted to the gear shift stick.
The ratio of the odometer was controlled by a Steward-Warner unit that was very similar to the SW switch in my Columbia control system.
The truck was generally driven as a ten speed, split shifting each gear with the two speed rear axle.
I did the same thing with my '36 when I was street racing.
As a side-bar: During 1954-56 I had a friend that had a '36 5 win coupe that was a Standard car, a real Plain Jane, Dicks car weighed under 2,900 lbs., when we weighed our two cars. The only modifications Dick had done to his coupe was a stock 24 stud engine, hydraulic brakes, 650x16 rear tires and 5 on 5.5 wheels w/47-48 hub caps.

[Ray in La Mesa]

Had a 46-48 in my '28 A roadster pickup since 1974 and just turned over 87,000 miles on it, I love it. Have a Mitchell in my '30 A cabriolet also.

[Jim Hamilton]

I’m starting to feel the same way Glenn, I’ll probably call John and get this started.

[Jim Hamilton]

Originally Posted by glennpm

I have a Columbia in my 32 roadster and love it. I use it all the time 35-40MPH and up. It is a pleasure and in my opinion, period correct. I don't like modifying the frame or torque tube etc.

Glenn

Originally Posted by Ray in La Mesa

Had a 46-48 in my '28 A roadster pickup since 1974 and just turned over 87,000 miles on it, I love it. Have a Mitchell in my '30 A cabriolet also.

How hard have you guys treated yours and are they modified or stock Columbias?

[glennpm]

Hi Jim,

I have bought the services and parts to fix and strengthen my Columbia. I did the assembly myself with help from my V8 club friends of yore. I don't beat on it nor due I baby it. I do take my time shifting into and out of OD though.

I'll provide more input later today.

Glenn

[glennpm]

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I bought parts from Dan Krehbiel and John Deets. I bought new bearings, bronze shims, gaskets, basically everything that I could get new. In recent years I've bought the synchro clutch rebuild kit, vacuum canister shaft and some gaskets from John Connelly.

I had the A-24 differential case banded, A-30 differential cross tees shortened and the A-17 basket weld reinforced by John Deets whose work was excellent. I had a good crack free A-24 to start with. A couple of years ago I rebuilt my clutch with a kit from Connelly. See the attached especially pages 7 and 8.

Assembling the unit wasn't hard. The tedious part was lifting the heavy assembled housing to properly shim the unit.

Search here for other rebuilders. Dan Krehbiel has good reports here and there is someone else in GA I believe that's been recommended. Search here. Connelley isn't the only good vendor to pick from.

[Jim Hamilton]

Glenn,
Thanks for that article, I really enjoyed that!

[glennpm]

Yes, it is very good

[Ray in La Mesa]

I had John Deats of Long Beach, Ca. rebuild & bullet proof my Columbia in h the 70's. I have used it for normal service and a few times hauled loads of 1500 lbs in the pickup, gingerly of course.

[Kens 36]

Originally Posted by glennpm

Search here for other rebuilders. Dan Krehbiel has good reports here and there is someone else in GA I believe that's been recommended. Search here. Connelley isn't the only good vendor to pick from.

Please be aware that Dan Krehbiel passed away in May. A great loss to our hobby.

Ken

[glennpm]

Yes, too bad about Dan. He was a great guy to talk withy and great with Columbias

Re: Columbia ...Tenn. guy
Johnny J. Stooksbury
1116 Wallace Rd
Knoxville, TN 37919-8452
(865) 690-7585

[Kube]

I too am in the Columbia camp. I have NEVER had an issue with any of them. Of course, each is properly rebuilt and installed, and they are shifted per the directions.
John Connely has been a great source of parts and service.
He has modified housings for me a number of times and each has been perfect.
Good man, good machinist... you can't go wrong with John.

[Joe KCMO]

Don’t wait to get this specialty work done by these wonderfully skilled vendors. Each year there are fewer! I recently had a Columbia bullet proofed by John Connelly. Had everything and knew how to do it also. I wonderful person to do the hobby.

[Jet96]

That article is quite helpful.

[Jim Hamilton]

I finally got my order in to John at Columbia Two Speed, ordered it in April with 2 or 3 ahead of me and as of Friday June 30th, he’s already boxing everything up.
I had more issues keeping me at work a lot and more things to fix at home that prevented me from getting all the research done and getting my order in.
Many thanks to you guys for your help!!

[Jim Hamilton]

Another thought/question do any of you Columbia guys get spare parts for these? I’m thinking of getting a spare steel A-24 and another A-17. These look to be the first to let go if my right and left feet work too hard together at a spirited take off!

[ssffnomad]

Our 39’ Tudor Sedan has 4:11 gears .
Few years ago, was able to purchase a hardly used Mitchell 37% OD.
Easy to install.
Works like a charm 👍
Stretch

[95476]

I have a Columbia in my '34 3-W coupe and a Mitchell in my '34 P/U. I like both of them but think the Mitchell might be the stronger unit. I don't abuse either of them soitis not an issue for me.

[Jim Hamilton]

I was thinking a lot between the Mitchell and Columbia. On my ‘46 it was going to require some floor and torque tube work. My goal for this car is to be a ‘50s mild Hot Rod without any cutting. I do though want to get another hood to be louvered.