Title Woe’s

[cas3]

Thats good that your state keeps the records that long, many do not. Years ago I bought a few cars out of a junk yard in South Dakota, and there the county has record of the license plate numbers, or did back then, so if you had a plate you could usually find the owner or a relative at least.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Carl

... what happens a lot is a person buys a frame and the seller keeps the title with numbers that match the frame. It could be an original Ford frame or one that has assigned numbers on it. The seller wants the title to use on another car. The person who buys the frame may or may not use and try to register it right away in his name. Then when you get to DMV, they tell you your title is already registered to somebody else.

You think that happens a lot? Or is that a theory. Guess it could happen. But not likely.

[cas3]

I have bought field cars from the farmer who was the original owner and most likely has a title or some papers in the house and they are too lazy to look. Don't care, not their problem.

[Carl]

I believe it does happen a lot. I just bought a 32 rolling chassis that had the VIN # ground off near the firewall. The other 2 VIN #s were still on the frame. I checked the #s at DOT office and the #s had already been applied to another car. However, I knew the previous owner wanted to keep the title and that was part of the deal.

[Tinker]

Carl you bought a car with a ground out vin and no title. Soooo....


Not saying it doesn't happen.

[Bursonaw]

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Title in Hand!

It only took countless phone calls to the Oregon, Idaho, Washington, Connecticut and Virginia DMV offices, hours on hold and countless explanations to different people each time I called. Seven months later I finally receive a title for my roadster!

Let me do a recap of my situation. In 2014 I purchased a 36 Ford Roadster from a friend in Idaho with a current and clear title. I shipped the car to Connecticut and registered the car with no issues, however CT does not title cars out of state that are older than 25 years. In 2022 I brought the car to Virginia and proceeded to register and title the car. I later received a letter telling me that there was another car in Oregon with the same VIN number and put a hold on my car’s title until the conflict was cleared. This started an investigation into the history of ownership of my car and of the car in Oregon with the same VIN number. The very first thing I found out was that getting detailed information about a car that you don’t own is not easy, however I was able to get enough information to follow a partial history trail. I tracked both cars history back to the mid 60’s that started in Washington state. My 36 Ford Roadster went to Idaho where I later purchased the car in 2014. The other car turned out to be a 36 Ford Tudor Sedan that went to Oregon. There were several owners of that car and it was last titled in 2021.

The next thing I found was that prior to 2019 State DMV’s did not share title information between states and in 2019 the National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS) was adopted by most states and started sharing information nationally. The NMVTIS system did show that under the VIN number I owned the car in 2014 and when the OR car was titled in 2021 NMVTIS transferred VIN ownership to that car in OR. If CT DMV would have titled my car back in when it was registered in 2014 this issue might have been discovered earlier. I now had to prove that the cars were different cars and convince the DMV’s that two cars somehow had the same VIN numbers. In 1936 Ford used 9 digit numbers located on the frame near the steering box, the transmission housing and on the frame on top of the rear hump that can only be seen with the body off the car. Ford also did not associate their VIN numbers with a body style, which would have been helpful in my search. The only thing that I could figure out is that both cars were in WA in the 60’s and possibly in the same shop. The VIN number or transmission housing was used to title one or both of the cars in a different state.

I do have to give kudos to the people I worked with at the OR DMV. Once I was able to get to the right people and the NMVTIS desk they were able to work through the issues by separating the cars in the NMVTIS system. Sounds simple enough, but getting two state agencies on the same sheet of music took a lot of time and coordination witch did required some out of the box thinking to get the end result.

Lessons learned

Even if you have a clear car titled prior to 2019 particularly with an older VIN number, you could still potentially have similar title issues when you buy or sell a car. The NMVTIS system was designed for modern 17 digit VIN numbers that all car manufactures use today. So older VIN numbers have a higher potential of issues. You can order for a fee a NMVTIS VIN number search if you have concerns. Unfortunately when I tried the website I used would not accept older VIN numbers. You might have better luck.
https://vehiclehistory.bja.ojp.gov/n...history#w7o24a

Most of the people I talked to at the DMV’s were very helpful. They do log notes into their system and you almost never get to talk to the same person every time you call, so after a few phone calls, (I called almost every week for 7 months) you just have to give them the VIN number and let them read the notes so you don’t have to explain every time to each person. Keep a log of conversations as well.

I could not talk directly to the NMVTIS desk so getting one state to talk to another was a challenge. so being persistent and calling regularly eventually got my message through. I finally did receive a call directly from the OR NMVTIS desk and once that happened things started moving along.

Once you get things resolved in one state, another state may not accept the information and require other information.

You have to be persistent and do a lot of your own legwork.

I know this was a lengthy post, but I hope that this might be of helpful to someone else. If you have a similar issue I wish you the best of luck!

[nickthebandit]

I know someone in Massachusetts that bought a model "A" coupe. He sold the original engine to an engine re-builder. He registered his coupe, and, 2 years later the Motor Vehicle Registry told him that his registration was invalid. Someone else had installed the now re-built engine in another model "A", and used the engine number to register the second model "A". It took more than 2 years to straighten out the problem. and the person that I know could not use his model "A" in the mean time.

[kurt v]

I lived in CT for 57 years the idea that CT doesn't title cars after 25 yrs is not quite right, you won't get a title from the state when you reg it but for an extra 15 bucks a title can be purchased.

[34fordy]

In 2012 I purchased a 1933 Ford from a dealer I assumed to be reputable. Two or three days after getting the car home I looked at the title given to me and compared it to the VIN on the frame in front of the firewall. It was not a match. I called the dealer and said I was returning the car immediately. He told me how I could apply for a replacement title. I had lost all interest in the car and confidence in the dealer. My payment was returned with no argument. I have looked at numerous cars since, some with titles and some not. The very first thing I do is make sure that the title and VIN match. If not, I walk away. Experience is the best teacher.

[Mart]

Originally Posted by Bursonaw

Title in Hand!

Well done. Thanks for finishing the story.

[JayChicago]

Yes, thanks for the information.
"Even if you have a clear car titled prior to 2019 particularly with an older VIN number, you could still potentially have similar title issues when you buy or sell a car."

[Carl]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Carl you bought a car with a ground out vin and no title. Soooo....


Not saying it doesn't happen.

I bought the 32 chassis because it had a complete 32 running gear in it that I will use in another 32 frame that I have a title for. The guy I bought the frame from ground the VIN #s off. so I or someone else could not title it with those #s. A lot of people sell cars, or chassis and keep the clear title for use on another project and the smart ones will remove the VIN #s before they sell the chassis.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by cas3

Thats good that your state keeps the records that long, many do not. Years ago I bought a few cars out of a junk yard in South Dakota, and there the county has record of the license plate numbers, or did back then, so if you had a plate you could usually find the owner or a relative at least.

Trouble with something like that now-a-days is "Right To Privacy" laws prohibit giving-out names or identity of PREVIOUS owners.

Coop

.

[hoss73ford]

I knew someone who went thru a vehicle inspection checkpoint in Ohio. He had a '62 F100 that was on a late model Crown Victoria frame. Naturally the VIN # didn't match and they yanked his registration on the spot. The cops even said they knew frame swapping was common but the numbers must match to make it legal. He went to a DMV hearing officer and they wouldn't even discuss it. That was about 15 years ago and I don't know what the outcome was.
Another problem is there are likely a number of vintage cars out there that were titled by motor number and not serial or tag number and were never changed thru the years. No one who works at a DMV now was alive when they did that. Big can of worms.

[oldskool]

i had the same issue in ny with a 40 ford pickup someone already used the same vin as mine , i went to dmv and they told me to take a picture of the vin,i did and i got the car registered no problem

[JayChicago]

This is the pertinent info I got out of post #46. Things changed in 2019, so now more chances for a duplicate serial number problem to arise:

".....prior to 2019 State DMV’s did not share title information between states and in 2019 the National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS) was adopted by most states and started sharing information nationally."

[HD]

I know what happened, It happens many times with early Fords, Someone has the orig transmission from that car and registered his car with that VIN, A friend has a 1932 Ford registered and has a Ma.title, He got a call from the RMV a few yrs ago and stated someone is trying to title a 1932 Ford with the same VIN, We found out the man bought a transmission at a flea market with the same VIN, He contacted the man who he bought the car from and the man said he sold the orig transmission at a flea market,The RMV said my friends car was registered and titled OK because he has the VIN on the frame

[Bursonaw]

Attachment 509648

Originally Posted by kurt v

I lived in CT for 57 years the idea that CT doesn't title cars after 25 yrs is not quite right, you won't get a title from the state when you reg it but for an extra 15 bucks a title can be purchased.

Pulled this information off the CT DMV website.

[Steve in Denver]

I purchased my '36 from Connecticut and titled it in Colorado. Had to go through all kinds of paperwork as there was only a bill of sale. Had to go through all kinds of Title Searches to prove it was not stolen. A 2 month long pain.

[Bursonaw]

For the Ford Barn folks in Connecticut, I fellow Ford enthusiast was able to receive a CT title for his 1934 Ford Pickup. He was kind enough to document the procedure and share it for anyone in CT seeking a title.

Many thanks to Jim Borbas Jr. for sharing! If you have any questions about the process, you can email him directly at [email protected].

TO OBTAIN A CONNECTICUT TITLE 2023
for exempt vehicles over 20 years old

Refer to Instructions in C.G.S. Section 14-166. Exempted vehicles
Download that section from https://portal.ct.gov/dmv/vehicle-se...-title-service

No in-person appointments

Compose a cover letter with the reason for the title request. Mail your documents to the address listed below

Following the requirements of Sec. 14-166:
1. Use Form H-13B for Title Application (good time to make it OR/JOINT for estate planning)

2. Provide 4 colored pictures in landscape format of the front, rear, left and right sides. You can fit them on one sheet of paper if able or use two.

3. Provide VIN verification per Sec. 14-99h(c): a CT Emissions testing center, a licensed deal- er, or an inspection report Form B-269. Also best to provide a closeup picture of the actual VIN. (Avoid going to Wethersfield as you would get a full inspection.)

4. Proof of recent taxes paid using a copy of your town property tax form/receipt.

Provide a Sworn Statement using Form H-155. In the sworn area write these two things:

a. On <Date>, I purchased the above stated vehicle from
<Name of seller & full address>.

b. I do hereby swear that the <year, make, model> is not a reproduction
or replica and that it has been maintained and restored to a condition
that substantially conforms with the original manufacturer’s
specifications.

6. Provide a copy of the Bill of Sales if the vehicle is a recent purchase, otherwise it’s not necessary.

7. Add a color copy of your driver’s license (and the 2nd named person’s license to be add- ed) on one piece of paper.

Enclose a $35 check for the title only, made out to: DMV
Mail your packet to:
DMV - TITLE UNIT
60 State Street, Wethersfield, CT 06161

Note: If you wish to add a name to the title and your current registration does not have both names, there’s two ways you can go:

1. Include in your paperwork Form Q-1. Plus a color copy of both driver’s licenses on one sheet. This will be an additional fee to update your registration to OR/Joint. Therefore, do not send the $35 check noted above as that’s only for the title. Wait for a call from the Title Unit and if they grant your title request, you can give a credit card over the phone for the total amount then. (If you don’t want to give a credit card, then ask if you can mail a check and to whom.)

2. Or, before you submit your packet you can make an appointment online at a DMV center and update your registration ahead of time for adding a name using Forms Q-1 and H-13B. Both people must be present and submit their driver’s licenses.

3. BUT, before you do ‘1’ & ‘2’ above, make sure you update your auto insurance policy for joint drivers before doing DMV changes.

Any questions, call CT Title Services at: 860-263-5710