59a with Scat Set Up Your thoughts please.

[Phil Gillespie]

So after the " hicup with damaged engine, broken con rod etc" am now going down this path . Would value any comments and suggestions.
Have purchased this engine which has just been built up.
Plan on checking piston to head clearance to get that 40 to 50 thou clearance
piston to head. Its fitted with Ross flatop pistons soo??
Also fitted with 4 barrel intake with a Carter carb, my experience with these is zero. Also will be changing from 6v to 12v and removing the C4 bits and pieces and staying with original gearbox. Wil be going into 46 Merc Coupe.l
Heres the details of engine:

Rebuilt ford flathead v8.59a
3-5/16" bore plus 30 thou.

scat Rotating Assembly, 286 C.I.
4.125" Engine Stroke, H-Beam Connecting Rod Type, ross Flat Top racing Pistons

complete motor re-sleeve bored and fitted with flathead stroker kit rotating assemblies feature new Scat crankshafts, new Scat H-beam connecting rods with 2" journals, premium forged three-ring pistons, rod bearings, and piston rings. The components are balanced. the crank has a center Main Cap Support

fitted with a 5t cam pushing Isky Racing Adjustable Flathead Ford Lifters and Hi-grade 21 - 4N stainless steel exhaust/inlet valves, Each valve is .060 oversize. exhausts are coated zoomie style and sound awesome

Melling M-15 High Volume oil pump delivering 45psi

8ba waterpumps with a 8ba timing cover and machined Chevy HEI Distributor.

topped off with a Speedway Single Plane 4 barrel intake manifold and a Cartier performance race carb and a new Powermaster old-style alternator. the engine is started with a Powermaster V8 Gear Reduction Starter.

the heads are new Edelbrocks and feature a block logo and are cast at the Edelbrock Foundry in the USA of T-6 tempered A356 aluminum. The Edelbrock heads are rugged, ribbed internally and externally, with a large water capacity and excellent breathing characteristics. 74 cc.

this is a brand new engine and will have to be run in and the heads will need re torqueing after running/cooling down.

the trans is a c4 and has been rebuilt and shift kitted. it has a new torque convertor.

On another note any experience here with Demon carbs as understand the newer versions, 4 barrel have similar but updated tech as was in Carter carbs.

Demon 1900 625 CFM Street Demon Carburetor is the carb I am considering.

Thanks,
Phil NZ

[KiWinUS]

Phil I can smell serious $$ here. I think there are better options to build a stroker flathead for less $. If you want I can pm with my suggestions. If already purchased just enjoy.

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Phil I can smell serious $$ here. I think there are better options to build a stroker flathead for less $. If you want I can pm with my suggestions. If already purchased just enjoy.

I've already pulled the trigger on this one. Should be on the way from NI soon.
Getting the bits now for the 12v change over at present.
Phil NZ

[KiWinUS]

Not sure exactly what carb but the early carters built correctly are amazing. A lot of engine to keep that cam. Be sure the distributor has advance to suit a flathead & you will be over the top happy.

[flatjack9]

Charlie NY can tune that carb to perfection. I am not a fan of the Melling M-15 oil pump. The 5-T cam is a stock 59AB cam unless it has been reground. Also I the manifold is a dual plane which is what you want. I think 625 cfm is a little large for that engine.

[Brian]

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Take care with sealing up head gaskets; looks like a bit of damage to the deck top corner above #5
Flattop pistons-domed heads
Has it been balanced?

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by Brian

Take care with sealing up head gaskets; looks like a bit of damage to the deck top corner above #5
Flattop pistons-domed heads
Has it been balanced?

Ah ha so you know where it came from?
The flattop piston with domed heads different!!
Thats why I'll carefully check clearances piston to head and adjust as required.
Been balanced and noted that deck area also.

1316901145.jpg

1316901706.jpg

Phil NZ

[my4dv8]

We have a similar motor in our 32 , 4.125 and 3 5/16 bore. We changed from Navarro heads to edelbrock to get a better compression ratio for the bigger motor. Still running 2 97 carbs and an early 8BA mallory with tach drive. We chose a relatively mild Isky 1007B cam . Still has a lopey idle . But my engine guy is super fussy setting things up . Everything flowed and triple checked .It has bunches of torque , great fun on the hills. It would give a small block a fright. I thing you need a bigger cam than the stock 5T to make use of the other components in the package.

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by my4dv8

We have a similar motor in our 32 , 4.125 and 3 5/16 bore. We changed from Navarro heads to edelbrock to get a better compression ratio for the bigger motor. Still running 2 97 carbs and an early 8BA mallory with tach drive. We chose a relatively mild Isky 1007B cam . Still has a lopey idle . But my engine guy is super fussy setting things up . Everything flowed and triple checked .It has bunches of torque , great fun on the hills. It would give a small block a fright. I thing you need a bigger cam than the stock 5T to make use of the other components in the package.

I plan to get it, check out a couple of things, Check and set up timing and see how it goes. I plan on just running an electric fan and wonder what diameter and flow capacity I should look at. Front end of Merc there is a ton of room here.
Phil NZ

[Bored&Stroked]

So you're saying it has flat top pistons and regular domed shaped combustion chambers in the heads? This makes no sense at all to me. To be blunt, I have no clue as to what somebody was thinking as Ford never built an engine with domed heads and flattop pistons - it is a complete miss-match of combustion chamber designs.

Two issues right off the bat: 1) The compression will be dropped a bunch - and you really want compression as flatheads don't have much to start with. 2) There is effectively no "quench" area in the head - which is super important for a flathead.

To me, if I purchased this engine, I'd put the correct pistons in it - would not even waste my time running it and polishing down the bores. You can probably even get pistons and use the same rings you already have. The engine would most likely need to be re-balanced (I would do this).

The engine has a lot of expensive parts in it - why not make sure it has a chance to run as it should? With the correct pistons and a tight .040 to .045 quench, it would be a really nice running engine.

You asked for perspectives . . . hope I didn't pee in your coffee too much.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Phil Gillespie

So after the " hicup with damaged engine, broken con rod etc" am now going down this path . Would value any comments and suggestions.
Have purchased this engine which has just been built up.
Plan on checking piston to head clearance to get that 40 to 50 thou clearance
piston to head. Its fitted with Ross flatop pistons soo??
Also fitted with 4 barrel intake with a Carter carb, my experience with these is zero. Also will be changing from 6v to 12v and removing the C4 bits and pieces and staying with original gearbox. Wil be going into 46 Merc Coupe.l
Heres the details of engine:

Rebuilt ford flathead v8.59a
3-5/16" bore plus 30 thou.

scat Rotating Assembly, 286 C.I.
4.125" Engine Stroke, H-Beam Connecting Rod Type, ross Flat Top racing Pistons

complete motor re-sleeve bored and fitted with flathead stroker kit rotating assemblies feature new Scat crankshafts, new Scat H-beam connecting rods with 2" journals, premium forged three-ring pistons, rod bearings, and piston rings. The components are balanced. the crank has a center Main Cap Support

fitted with a 5t cam pushing Isky Racing Adjustable Flathead Ford Lifters and Hi-grade 21 - 4N stainless steel exhaust/inlet valves, Each valve is .060 oversize. exhausts are coated zoomie style and sound awesome

Melling M-15 High Volume oil pump delivering 45psi

8ba waterpumps with a 8ba timing cover and machined Chevy HEI Distributor.

topped off with a Speedway Single Plane 4 barrel intake manifold and a Cartier performance race carb and a new Powermaster old-style alternator. the engine is started with a Powermaster V8 Gear Reduction Starter.

the heads are new Edelbrocks and feature a block logo and are cast at the Edelbrock Foundry in the USA of T-6 tempered A356 aluminum. The Edelbrock heads are rugged, ribbed internally and externally, with a large water capacity and excellent breathing characteristics. 74 cc.

this is a brand new engine and will have to be run in and the heads will need re torqueing after running/cooling down.

the trans is a c4 and has been rebuilt and shift kitted. it has a new torque convertor.

On another note any experience here with Demon carbs as understand the newer versions, 4 barrel have similar but updated tech as was in Carter carbs.

Demon 1900 625 CFM Street Demon Carburetor is the carb I am considering.

Thanks,
Phil NZ

Hi Phil, just got a PM from "Kev" in Germany, same exact Scat crank as your's and his rod brg clearance is over .003", close to .0035".

He asked me for a "fix", seems Scat is making their rod journals 1.999" which gives you too much clearance on the rods. I recommended to him to try to locate some .001" under rod brgs, it would help!

You may be good, but I would check this item first before going any further!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. This is one reason we refuse to use the Scat FH cranks, there are a few others also! We strictly use the Eagle line on the FH's!

[Tim Ayers]

I’m stratching my head on the use of flattop pistons. If Ross, I believe they would have been custom made for their “stock” line have a dome to them. What was the thinking on this build? Really curious

[19Fordy]

Holy Flathead: From the conversation above it looks like a lot of dough was spent on parts that don't provide optimal performance but, sound good when listing an engine for sale.

Hope it's not, "All show and no go" but sounds good when "bench racing".

[Ol' Ron]

It's called a "learning experience". Or never make a modification, without a reason. You have allot of information here by guys the "KNOW". If the bore is 3 5/16 plus .030', Must be a reason, odd size ????
Good luck
Gramps

[cadillac512]

Maybe I'm wrong, but looking closely at the pic without the head those pistons look like they are domed by the way the light reflection bends. I'd pull a head and have a look for sure (the OP says that's the plan anyway). Maybe by "flat tops" the seller meant "no valve reliefs" as is common when referencing some ohv stuff. Maybe all is well after all!
Terry

[drolston]

I built my flathead with the 286" Scat rotating assembly three years ago, and the pistons were domed. I can't believe Scat would switch to flat pistons. I agree that you could certainly benefit from a little more cam. I am running the Schneider 248f, which has a bunch of lift and little more duration. The idle is pretty smooth and performance is very manageable in traffic, and that is with 3.25 rear end gears. That said, it will snap your neck when you open it up in second gear.

Warning on that Powermaster alternator. It is a little Japanese alternator stuffed into that look alike case. Mind did not last 2000 miles. The good news is that an old school alternator shop can replace the guts for less than $200.

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

So you're saying it has flat top pistons and regular domed shaped combustion chambers in the heads? This makes no sense at all to me. To be blunt, I have no clue as to what somebody was thinking as Ford never built an engine with domed heads and flattop pistons - it is a complete miss-match of combustion chamber designs.

Two issues right off the bat: 1) The compression will be dropped a bunch - and you really want compression as flatheads don't have much to start with. 2) There is effectively no "quench" area in the head - which is super important for a flathead.

To me, if I purchased this engine, I'd put the correct pistons in it - would not even waste my time running it and polishing down the bores. You can probably even get pistons and use the same rings you already have. The engine would most likely need to be re-balanced (I would do this).

The engine has a lot of expensive parts in it - why not make sure it has a chance to run as it should? With the correct pistons and a tight .040 to .045 quench, it would be a really nice running engine.

You asked for perspectives . . . hope I didn't pee in your coffee too much.

Nope wont do that. I more or less suspected as much.
And your comments are very valid .
Yep the best way forward another set of correct domed pistons and should get by with same rings.
Thanks,
Phil NZ

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Hi Phil, just got a PM from "Kev" in Germany, same exact Scat crank as your's and his rod brg clearance is over .003", close to .0035".

He asked me for a "fix", seems Scat is making their rod journals 1.999" which gives you too much clearance on the rods. I recommended to him to try to locate some .001" under rod brgs, it would help!

You may be good, but I would check this item first before going any further!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. This is one reason we refuse to use the Scat FH cranks, there are a few others also! We strictly use the Eagle line on the FH's!

Gary thanks so much for your input. Will check this out also.
Phil NZ

[Phil Gillespie]

I'm hoping they are flatop pistons. But will see. I'm very apprecative of all comments for sure. I will be looking at all suggestions and assistance offered for sure. And it will be sorted for best running output.
Phil NZ

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

It's called a "learning experience". Or never make a modification, without a reason. You have allot of information here by guys the "KNOW". If the bore is 3 5/16 plus .030', Must be a reason, odd size ????
Good luck
Gramps

Yes a previous build it was bored at all cylinders and all are sleeved.
I believe the plus 30 to have been a clean up.
Really appreciate your comments and advice from "the master builder".
Phil NZ

[Brian]

Are you sure it's sleeved? That is a C69A block, these things have thick walls. I've just built two of them with 3 5/16 + .030 " walls myself. Ultrasonic test showed .125" wall thickness left. Thing is, with that size bore, if sleeved, you'd be into the water jackets; no support for the sleeves.

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by Brian

Are you sure it's sleeved? That is a C69A block, these things have thick walls. I've just built two of them with 3 5/16 + .030 " walls myself. Ultrasonic test showed .125" wall thickness left. Thing is, with that size bore, if sleeved, you'd be into the water jackets; no support for the sleeves.

Brian, as I was told it was sleeved. This I will check on again. Take you point on this one also. Concering entry into water jacket and no sleeve suppport.
Seems like these pistons are definitely not for this set up.
Is it"true" with a fitted blower to use flatop pistons? Or maybe another myth.
Phil NZ

[flatheadmurre]

Boring into the waterjacket when sleeving isn´t the problem.
Issue is that with such a large overbore and enough thickness of the sleeve you get no support between deck and bottom end of engine.
Blower or turbo charger doesn´t dictate the shape of the piston it´s the combustion chamber that do...lower compression for supercharging can be achieved in many ways.

[Phil Gillespie]

I understand the heads have a 74cc combustion chamber. Once I have the engine I will check some compressions first then remove heads and check clearances and go from there. Main driving will be street and highway driving. Our speed limit being 100km/hr
60mph. All things subject to change.
Thanks to all as always for sharing ideas, thoughts and knowledge always freely shared at this site.
Phil NZ

[my4dv8]

What times did it do in a previous life?

[Bored&Stroked]

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In a blown flathead, if you need a lower compression ratio, you don't do it with flattop pistons and a domed head - it is typically done with larger transfer areas, larger chambers around the valve area, etc.. The combustion chamber and pistons should both match and you still want a tight quench area - this is key.

Now, there are some piston/head combinations that are designed for flattop pistons. An example is one of the Tony Baron heads that use pop-up pistons with flat tops - with flattop chambers that are high up into the head.

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

In a blown flathead, if you need a lower compression ratio, you don't do it with flattop pistons and a domed head - it is typically done with larger transfer areas, larger chambers around the valve area, etc.. The combustion chamber and pistons should both match and you still want a tight quench area - this is key.

Now, there are some piston/head combinations that are designed for flattop pistons. An example is one of the Tony Baron heads that use pop-up pistons with flat tops - with flattop chambers that are high up into the head.

Appreciate the information and it assists with making decisions.
Have looked up some info on Ross pistons and seems their dome height is 0.180. so it is possible it may have dome type pistons. A first hand inspection will confirm.Not sure if the flat top are special orders unlike the dome type which would be the standard configuration?
Phil NZ.

[Brian]

I run flattop Ross pistons in one of my engines [with the appropriate heads]. I got them custom made by Ross. All standard Ross flattie pistons have their own specific dome with the .180 dome height.

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by Brian

I run flattop Ross pistons in one of my engines [with the appropriate heads]. I got them custom made by Ross. All standard Ross flattie pistons have their own specific dome with the .180 dome height.

Yea when I get the engine, see it for myself, check it and see for sure piston type. If flat top will go for the standard dome type and fit these. As I would not be happy running a set up that is not compatable. Seems dome height of Edelbrock heads are compatable with these Ross dome pistons. Max
Phil NZ

[my4dv8]

Yes Phil , we went from Navarro heads to Edelbrock .with the bigger cubes the compression with Navarro would have been too high for what we wanted,can’t remember the numbers now but Edelbrock and ross pistons was a good combo.

[Bored&Stroked]

Edelbrock uses a consistent radius dome - so they should match the standard Ross pistons. What can't be known is if the compression height of their 'off the shelf' pistons is such that with the typical .052 thick head gasket, that you'll have .040 to .045 over the pistons (quench area). If you don't, then you can mill the heads a bit.

If you end up needing new pistons, you can measure the actual compression height that is needed and Ross will move the piston pins to give you the exact pin location that is required - for the .040 to .045 clearances. They will do this for a nominal fee (if you call them directly). Talk to 'Ed' he is a good guy and has helped me with custom piston orders.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Brian

I run flattop Ross pistons in one of my engines [with the appropriate heads]. I got them custom made by Ross. All standard Ross flattie pistons have their own specific dome with the .180 dome height.

Sounds like you're having some fun with a 21 stud early motor???

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Edelbrock uses a consistent radius dome - so they should match the standard Ross pistons. What can't be known is if the compression height of their 'off the shelf' pistons is such that with the typical .052 thick head gasket, that you'll have .040 to .045 over the pistons (quench area). If you don't, then you can mill the heads a bit.

If you end up needing new pistons, you can measure the actual compression height that is needed and Ross will move the piston pins to give you the exact pin location that is required - for the .040 to .045 clearances. They will do this for a nominal fee (if you call them directly). Talk to 'Ed' he is a good guy and has helped me with custom piston orders.

.

I had planned on checking to ensure I get this 40 to 45 clearance once I have checked piston type and some compressions prior to head removal. Milling heads as required is in the plan also.
Our Virus Level is now dropping to Level 2 so this will now enable engine & transmission to be shipped from North Island to my location in South Island.
Phil NZ

[Ol' Ron]

Once you have the heads finished and bolted onto the block. You can measure the clearance by using a piece of rosin core soder theugh the spark pluh hole to measure the clearance you ended up with.

[Brian]

Sounds like you're having some fun with a 21 stud early motor???


Dale, I only build two specific engines; 21 stud and for my big cube motors, C69A

[Phil Gillespie]

Just contacted Ross who tell me they engrave the pistons, probably at underside.
This is their ID for specs of piston so another area to be checked.
Phil NZ

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Brian

Sounds like you're having some fun with a 21 stud early motor???


Dale, I only build two specific engines; 21 stud and for my big cube motors, C69A

Hey Brian, sounds like you've managed to "contain your madness" for these darn engines to a select few models --- smart man! Maybe I need to take your focus to heart in my own flathead world! LOL

PS: I have never built a 21 stud engine (though I have a few). I might pickup a 36 LB that I know of - just for the heck of it. Been kind of wanting to build one for awhile . . .

[Lawrie]

The 21 stud engines in my lot are the smoothest engines,
Maybe its the low comp
Lawrie