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Old 10-06-2010, 01:05 PM   #1
bogdonj
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Exclamation The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

As many of you guys know that we have been having a weird issue with our rebuild engine after months of it running and driving perfectly. We had a thread called "Car wont start" and many of you guys gave us pointers and what not. Our engine had everything that we looked for. Good spark,good fuel,new condensor, coil,amp meter,points, retimed x8 ,distrutor cap and no air leaks. After weeks of putting on new parts and being baffled we called up the person who rebuild the engine and told us to bring it down. He had it for a few days and discovered something that he had never seen before causing this issue. This person deals with rebuilding model A's including parts and service of them and this was the first time he has seen this. I will give you guys a hint. The car wouldn't start with the spark plug leads on but as soon as he took them off the car started up and ran perfectly. I will post a video of it doing it and would like to see what you think caused this problem before I try to explain the cause. Lets see who gets it first!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NquVJtQCOo4 a better video to come to explain it even better.

On a side note...

Dixie Upholstery is the people we deal with for all our model a parts and service of them. I have to tell you they go above and beyond the call of duty to help us out and provide us with the information that we needed. We took our car there for him to help us and he had it back up and running. We also had a cracked water pump which he replaced free of charged as well has a Zenith Carb because as they put it "they stand behind what they sell" This speaks volumes to me. They showed us many cool tricks and took the time to explain everything. Nice to know we still have these types of businesses out there. If any of our CANADIAN as well as USA members need advice and to order parts I highly recommend emailing them or calling them for parts. Here is a website below. tell them we sent you.
http://dixies.ca/index.htm

Gene and Glen Franklan are the owners.
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Old 10-06-2010, 01:42 PM   #2
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

taking the plug wires off & creating a longer jump means hotter spark . so my guess is the coil ............ steve
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:03 PM   #3
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

OK, I guess the rotor was touching the contacts in the cap. There was no gap there.
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:46 PM   #4
1931 flamingo
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

Nice spark!!
Paul in CT
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:51 PM   #5
Mitch//pa
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve norcal View Post
taking the plug wires off & creating a longer jump means hotter spark . so my guess is the coil ............ steve

i was going to say the same thing hotter spark weak coil or plug problem except he noted that the coil and plugs were good hmmm

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Last edited by Mitch//pa; 10-06-2010 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:37 PM   #6
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

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Fouled plugs can be made to fire with jumping the gap like that.

Unlikely diagnosis tho being on all 4.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:37 PM   #7
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

I will go with the fouled plugs suggestion.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:38 PM   #8
Mike in NRN IN
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

Paint in the plug holes and on the head preventing the body of the spark plug from grounding properly?

Caused the high voltage to jump to the head, not between the electrodes of the plug.

Again, just a thought.
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Old 10-06-2010, 07:45 PM   #9
Art Bjornestad
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

Spark advanced too far
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:34 PM   #10
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

oil fouled plugs. We used to take a piece of wire coiled around the plug wire, not comming in contact with the metal anywhere ,fashion it so it held the end of the wire or connector a slight distance away from the tip of the spark plug thus causing the fire to "jump" to the plug ,the plug being oil soaked would fire and quit missing out on that cylinder. Maybe the rings wernt seated yet on this newly rebuilt engine. worked on badly worn tractor engine. Would'nt think all plugs would be miss firing tho.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:06 PM   #11
Bud BC
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

I have been watching the progress on the no-start problem as I have the same situation, the answer soon would be much appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:34 PM   #12
Bob Johnson
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

Let me try to reason this out. You said "Good spark,good fuel,new condensor, coil,amp meter,points, retimed x8 ,distrutor cap and no air leaks." Also because it did not run at all the problem is not limited to just one cylinder. The video clearly shows the spark from #4 arcing over to #3. The solution, removing the spark wires, indicates that it is something with the electrical system. So what in the electrical system was not stated as "good". That would be ignition wire, spark plugs, distributor (excluding points and cap) and distributor shaft to cam. The ignition wire would not be fixed by your solution. That leaves the spark plugs and the distributor. So I have two possibilities.

1) All the spark plugs gaps are too small.
2) The linkage from the camshaft to the distributor rotor is messed up.


Bob
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Old 10-07-2010, 04:46 AM   #13
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Smile Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

Damn, I hope we soon learn the answer. I laid awake last night hoping to be enlightened at 5 AM this morning. I am also thinking coil issues but it was replaced. Look forward to the puzzle being solved.

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Old 10-07-2010, 06:39 AM   #14
BillLee/Chandler, TX
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

I'm guessing it's something inside the distributor.

If you look at the video closely in single frame by frame, you can see that the 3-4 arc is apparently starting from 3 and going to 4. See this:


Perhaps defective distributor body (e.g., broken path leading to 3 and/or 4, etc.)
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg BadDist.jpeg (12.1 KB, 341 views)
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Last edited by BillLee/Chandler, TX; 10-07-2010 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 10-07-2010, 06:49 AM   #15
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

Cracked Rotor or no gap, but I assume Dixie would have diagnosed that immediately?
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:14 AM   #16
Rem/Mo
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

Spark plugs.
Probably wet from flooding trying to start it has caused carbon tracks up the porcelin tips letting the spark run up the tips to ground instead of jumping the gap. The gaps at the wires causes more voltage at the plugs forcing a spark across the plug gaps.
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:22 AM   #17
bogdonj
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

Alrighty REM/MO, Tom/MS,POOCH were basically correct with this issue. It's to do with fouled up plugs even being brand new. Not only 1 or 2 fouled plugs but all 4 at the same time. The builder has never seen all 4 getting fouled up. Even if you clean them and put them back in the engine may run but they will get fouled pretty quick and present the same symptoms. The main culprit is triggered by the Zenith carb we had on it. Even if we turned the choke off to make it run not as rich, it would still run rich and foul the plugs within seconds but wouldn't provide black smoke out the tail pipe so it was tricking us. Rem has it best saying "carbon tracks up the porcelin tips letting the spark run up the tips to ground instead of jumping the gap. The gaps at the wires causes more voltage at the plugs forcing a spark across the plug gaps." Instead of dismeantly our carb he gave us a rebuilt carb and know everything likes to work on it. The rebuilder went into more details with it but I couldn't follow with all the terminolgy and explainations of electricity. So basically once we installed the new carb and cleaned the plugs the car started in 1 second and runs amazing. The true test is to run it and check the plugs after a really good run.

The moral of the story is I guess, if your car doesn't run and you seem to have air,gas,spark...pull your spark plug leads off and give it a try. Sure shocked us! Thanks everyone for your help!
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:31 AM   #18
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoarseWhisperer View Post
Cracked Rotor or no gap, but I assume Dixie would have diagnosed that immediately?

HoarseWhisperer where you in kitchener last weekend?
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:19 PM   #19
HoarseWhisperer
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

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Originally Posted by bogdonj View Post
HoarseWhisperer where you in kitchener last weekend?
Yes, nearby. I led a tour of thirteen through St Jacobs to Stratford and Baden, Ontario.

The local newspaper came out to cover the "momentous" event.


Castle Kilbride, Baden, Ontario Canada


Is that how you heard about it?
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Old 10-07-2010, 03:07 PM   #20
bogdonj
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoarseWhisperer View Post
Yes, nearby. I led a tour of thirteen through St Jacobs to Stratford and Baden, Ontario.

The local newspaper came out to cover the "momentous" event.


Castle Kilbride, Baden, Ontario Canada


Is that how you heard about it?
Very Nice Picture!

no I was at the car show at the Canadian Tire and seen your car there! took some pictures of it and took a video of you arriving to the show. I should post them up for you.
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Old 10-07-2010, 05:03 PM   #21
HoarseWhisperer
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Default Re: The No Start Phenomenon Solved!

Wasn't me at Canadian Tire donj.

Would still like to see the video, though.
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