Why Grease should not be used in a Steering Gearbox

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Over the years, the topic of using grease inside a Model-A gear box has come up here. When I was a kid, its use was always a forbidden sin when someone asked about it at the club meetings. I think things have changed during those past 50 years of club meetings, but some are still adamant that it is a no-no to use grease in the gearbox. Maybe we can discuss it here again??

So in a typical mindset regarding Model-A gearboxes, there are low speed gearboxes and high speed gearboxes. For reference, the rear axle and the transmission on a Model-A are high-speed gearboxes. The steering gearbox would typically be considered a low-speed gearbox. In between are items such as the electric windshield wipers, window regulators, and maybe another item or two are low-speed gearboxes by definition.

From what I know about it, a high-speed gearbox typically uses a lube instead of grease so-as to cool the components such as bearings, bushings, and to remove the heat from friction created by two gear teeth rubbing against each other. In a slow-speed gearbox such as a steering gear box, a windshield wiper, or a window regulator, the friction on the bearings or the teeth (worm & sector) are not as prevalent where cooling from a lubricant is necessary.

So why did Henry's engineers choose to specify/install 600 W lube in lieu of grease? My theory is because at that time there was not an "extreme-pressure" grease invented, and so the 600W lube allowed the Sector teeth and the Worm gear to be 're-lubed' or replenished after the lube had been sheared off of the teeth during a turn while driving. Today, there are several available extreme-pressure greases that likely would have exceeded the needs for those Engineer's application. (For those who live to watch things discussed on YouTube, there is a channel called Project Farm that has produced several videos regarding the topic of greases.)

So here comes the question. Recently there was a discussion regarding Penrite grease along with a suggested alternative 00 Grease available at John Deere tractor dealerships and also at a local tractor supply store. I had looked at this product maybe a year ago and what I was told is not all "Corn Head" greases are high-pressure greases. It was explained that I should ask each manufacturer about recommended applications, ...and the brand I chose to go with is Champion's 00 lube which supposedly has the additives and the make-up that we would need in a Model-A gear box application. While we have begun to use this, unfortunately we have not been using it long enough in a Model-A gearbox to know whether it will be better than 600w over a longer term (20k-30k+ miles). Time will tell I suppose.

There is one area that I have concerns with in using this is (-unless you have a L28-29 7T sector housing.) the only way for the sector bushings to receive grease for lubrication is during the assembly process. If you study the gearbox housing, you will find it has provisions for lube to enter the sector housing, and the sector bushings are designed where galleys are present to transfer the lube to keep the sector shaft lubricated. So the question is, when using extreme-pressure lubricants in this area does the lubrication stay on the bushings to provide continual lubrication? I say it doesn't. Especially if someone has converted to roller bearings in lieu of sector bushings (-which is a whole different controversial topic!).

One other thing to note; when I rebuild a 7-tooth gearbox I typically re-machine the end of the steering shaft both internally and externally. I like to only remove enough material to remove any damage and then polish it with a worn crankshaft polishing belt. I then make a new lower bushing using oil impregnated bronze material (Oilite) and pack it full of the extreme-pressure grease during assembly. I figure if the grease gets pushed out, the oil in the bearing material will take over the lubrication process.


I welcome your comments or opinions on this, but my take on this is the Penrite and the Champion greases are likely suitable for using in the gearbox however they really do not provide enough lubrication for the sector shaft in its housing. Therefore an alternate method of lubrication needs to be used in you are using grease in the gearbox.

.

[Mister Moose]

Grease: Does not pour or flow at ambient temperatures.
Oil: Flows in all ambient temperatures.

I think this is the bulk of what Brent is saying, with the added proviso of shear strength. And shear strength really doesn't matter much if there is no replenishment.

Having heard about Penrite, and not wanting to disassemble the steering box YET AGAIN for oil leaks, I ordered a pint of Penrite.

It does not behave like a grease. It flows. It is somewhere between thick catsup and thick molasses. It's quite slippery. I don't know how well it will flow into the oil channel in the sector bushing, but it likely will over weeks as opposed to minutes. This is all that's needed really. And even quicker into the needle bearing that has more and wider spaces. If you assemble with grease first, I think that could obstruct any oil from entering the bushing grooves. And grease can dry and harden over time, another reason not to use grease in places where you can't force the old grease out under pressure with fresh grease.

I installed it. I needed to rig a threaded funnel into the steering box and let it flow in over several days* before it was full - in the fall in ambient temps of 50 degrees or so.

I agree this would be entirely unsuitable for a high speed gearbox.

* Because my funnel was small (about an ounce) and I would check on it just a few times a day. Bigger funnels would allow much faster fill if you're in a hurry, but don't be in much of a hurry.

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

So why did Henry's engineers choose to specify/install 600 wt. lube in lieu of grease? My theory is because at that time there was not an "extreme-pressure" grease invented, and so the 600wt lube allowed the Sector teeth and the Worm gear to be 're-lubed' or replenished after the lube had been sheared off of the teeth during a turn while driving. Today, there are several available extreme-pressure greases that likely would have exceeded the needs for those Engineer's application.


.

Brent, I am not disputing what you write I just have a question. Did Ford really use 600 wt. oil and what you refer to using in your steering box or was it more like what the vendors today call 600W which I have been led to believe is closer to SAE 140-250 wt. oil according to this chart?

Also what “scale” was used for the 600wt. oil?

Gets kinda confusing.

[nkaminar]

55 years ago when I first stared driving Model A's, the purpose of putting grease in the steering box was so that it did not leak out and get all over the light switch parts and the garage floor. Today you can buy items to modify the steering box to keep oil from leaking out. I think a good grade of modern transmission oil that is suitable for high pressure and not harmful to yellow metal would be the proper choice. Add to that the parts needed to keep the oil from leaking out.

[alexiskai]

I managed to dig up the specs for both the Champion grease and the Super S grease (the spindle grease available at Tractor Supply), attached below. You can see the Champion grease has a higher base viscosity and performs better on the 4-ball test, so it probably does perform better under high pressure than the spindle grease.

Naturally the Champion grease isn't available around here, gotta special-order it. That was the main attraction of the Super S grease for me.

[Patrick L.]

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Originally Posted by Ruth

Brent, I am not disputing what you write I just have a question. Did Ford really use 600 wt. oil and what you refer to using in your steering box or was it more like what the vendors today call 600W which I have been led to believe is closer to SAE 140-250 wt. oil according to this chart?

Also what “scale” was used for the 600wt. oil?

Gets kinda confusing.

600W is a designation not the weight. The chart shows this as about 150 weight.

I've used both 140 and 250 weights and don't notice much difference.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Ruth

Brent, I am not disputing what you write I just have a question. Did Ford really use 600 wt. oil and what you refer to using in your steering box or was it more like what the vendors today call 600W which I have been led to believe is closer to SAE 140-250 wt. oil according to this chart?

Also what “scale” was used for the 600wt. oil?

Gets kinda confusing.

It is confusing mainly because what has been passed down from generation to generation. Kinda like what Ford called the Dash is what some call the Firewall today. I went back and changed the WT to W however this is only a difference in abbreviations. The W & the WT are basically the same abbreviation.

To answer your question more specifically, part of your answer can be found in the Service Bulletins. I don't have them in front of me now so I do not have an exact quote to look at, but somewhere it makes reference of the lube to be of 600w thickness or consistency. I have only seen the M-Spec (material specifications) number mentioned for the 600W now have I ever seen Ford's usage specification for it.

This topic has been discussed many times here in years past where the Service Bulletins specifically specify using a Steering Gearbox lube in one place, -and yet in another area it lists the Transmission and the Rear Differential as both using the same lube however does not mention the steering gearbox as using that same lube. Is this an oversight? Likely as I have mentioned over & over, the Service Bulletins were not without errors and maybe this is another one such example. Therefore I am pretty certain the context in the Service Bulletins which specifies that 600W was the viscosity of the lube to be used. I think where the confusion comes in is where the industry viscosity ratings have been changed over time. Are you just as confused now as what you were when you asked the question??

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

600W is a designation not the weight. The chart shows this as about 150 weight.

I've used both 140 and 250 weights and don't notice much difference.

You may be correct but I am pretty sure the S/B makes reference at least once to the 600W as being the viscosity. The sentence was something like "the gearbox must use a lube equal to 600W.". It has been argued over and over and I don't know the answer, but I think the compelling argument has always been if 600W was a trade-name and not a viscosity, why wouldn't the Ford engineers have specified the necessary viscosity since '600W' was not Ford's own tradename?

[Jeff/Illinois]

Interesting thread, and yes sometimes these lube specifications are too technical for me

I got tired of a puddle of 600W on the floor the next morning after filling the steering box, so then I morphed over to JD Corn Head Grease, and now THAT sounds like it may not have been the solution.

I'll just lay back and let the herd mentality 'flow' this question. I'll see who is doing what and how quickly it destroys their steering box and go from there!

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Are you just as confused now as what you were when you asked the question??

Just about! One reason is because is the 600w an ISO rating? SAE doesn't not go that high. So 600w is ~SAE 150?

Without the inclution of "ISO" or "SAE" the numbers are not telling me much. Kind of like using a metric scale to measure inches.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

You may be correct but I am pretty sure the S/B makes reference at least once to the 600W as being the viscosity. The sentence was something like "the gearbox must use a lube equal to 600W.". It has been argued over and over and I don't know the answer, but I think the compelling argument has always been if 600W was a trade-name and not a viscosity, why wouldn't the Ford engineers have specified the necessary viscosity since '600W' was not Ford's own tradename?

Thanks for the response. This certainly is confusing and has been batted about for decades. Maybe I'm wrong, certainly won't be the first time. But, I thought the general consensus was 600W was a designation.

I've tried them all in the transmissions. I used what was said to be 600 weight and found it too heavy, 90 weight I felt was a bit light but doable.

As a kid we always used a barrel of 140 weight for everything until things changed to 90 weight. [ then we needed 2 barrels hanging around]

Its also my understanding that the grease fitting on the steering box was for the use of heavy oil [600W] pumped thru a grease gun. We always kept a gun full of 140 to top things off. Its easy to see why fellas would pump that box full of grease though.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

You may be correct but I am pretty sure the S/B makes reference at least once to the 600W as being the viscosity. The sentence was something like "the gearbox must use a lube equal to 600W.". It has been argued over and over and I don't know the answer, but I think the compelling argument has always been if 600W was a trade-name and not a viscosity, why wouldn't the Ford engineers have specified the necessary viscosity since '600W' was not Ford's own tradename?

Here's the relevant bit from the service bulletins.
Screen Shot 2021-02-12 at 12.17.11 PM.jpg

[alexiskai]

The 600W designation was a carry-over from steam cylinder oil, which would have been widely available at the time. You can still buy it now, in fact (for steam cylinders, not gearboxes). My understanding is that the controversy comes from not being certain what property was being equated when engineers were formulating "600W" transmission/differential oil.

[Gold Digger]

I am real familiar with steam cylinder oil from owning and operating steam tractors and engines over the years. Regular 90 or 140 wt oil will not lubricate steam engines as steam will wash it away. I'm not very technical on oils but I know that a steam cleaner won't start to clean 600w off of a steam engine. The only way I have had success cleaning it off is to wash with kerosene and scrub real hard then use a steam cleaner. That's how hard it is to brake down. Worm gears also call for 600w lube.

[40 Deluxe]

What about CV joint grease used in the axle joints of front wheel drive modern cars? It both flows and is extremely "clingy". To me, it is a lot like the John Deere "cornhead grease" and a lot easier to find. By the way, John Deere makes a grease for low speed gearboxes and another for high speed gear boxes. We want the low speed variety for steering boxes.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

What about CV joint grease used in the axle joints of front wheel drive modern cars? It both flows and is extremely "clingy". To me, it is a lot like the John Deere "cornhead grease" and a lot easier to find. By the way, John Deere makes a grease for low speed gearboxes and another for high speed gear boxes. We want the low speed variety for steering boxes.

Not sure which CV joint grease you have in mind, but that stuff is usually NLGI grade 1 or 2, a lot stiffer than the 00 stuff.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

What about CV joint grease used in the axle joints of front wheel drive modern cars? It both flows and is extremely "clingy". To me, it is a lot like the John Deere "cornhead grease" and a lot easier to find. By the way, John Deere makes a grease for low speed gearboxes and another for high speed gear boxes. We want the low speed variety for steering boxes.

CV grease contains Molybdenum Disulphide. That is what gives it its extreme pressure rating. The same stuff is in any "EP' gear oil which is known to dissolve some bronze bushes so take care here. I prefer graphite grease.
All that said, I use Penrite steering box lube and I'm not afraid to mix in a bit of grease or self levelling grease but remember, the steering box over here is very close to the exhaust and gets warm after a few miles. I think the lubricants you guys are using will lose viscosity and leak out quite quickly. It is a whole different consideration here.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Synchro, the problem as I see it for you guys in Australia, is you are upside down in the world so the grease runs out of the top of the gearbox

By the way how do you keep from falling out of your cars??

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

Synchro, the problem as I see it for you guys in Australia, is you are upside down in the world so the grease runs out of the top of the gearbox

By the way how do you keep from falling out of your cars??

Dunno, but I don't have any trouble sitting in there and falling out!

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

Synchro, the problem as I see it for you guys in Australia, is you are upside down in the world so the grease runs out of the top of the gearbox

By the way how do you keep from falling out of your cars??

Maybe they wear anti-gravity boots that work the opposite way "down under"

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Maybe they wear anti-gravity boots that work the opposite way "down under"

Nah, it's magnetic soles on the boots that does it. That's why we have sooo much iron ore - without it, we'd all fall your way.

[updraught]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

Synchro, the problem as I see it for you guys in Australia, is you are upside down in the world so the grease runs out of the top of the gearbox

Penrite is made here so it will run out the top of your steering box, not ours, so keep that in mind.
Can't everything be fixed by mixing in 90% STP? The 10% left is because STP is not a lube of course.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Naturally the Champion grease isn't available around here, gotta special-order it. That was the main attraction of the Super S grease for me.

We kinda went off topic here with the 600W viscosity, so let me ask this again, ...with the ones who use grease, how is/are the sector bushings getting lubricated?

[updraught]

Depends where the hole is that feeds the bearings I guess if it runs into it.

"Corn head grease is a polyurea thickened, soft NLGI 0
grade lubricating grease. A hybrid between a fluid gear lubricant and lubricating grease, it functions as a robust gear lubricant when meshed in the interface between two gear sets, such as those in a John Deere combine corn head gear case. However, because it is grease rather than a fluid gear lubricant, it stays in the gear case even when a worn seal would cause a traditional fluid lubricant to leak. This grease property is described as being thixotropic, meaning the grease softens and flows when sheared, then thickens back to its normal consistency to provide a leak proof sealing barrier when the equipment is not running. Corn head grease contains all the necessary additives to resist wear and corrosion"

A bit of a health warning:
"Polyureas can also be formed by the reaction of isocyanates and water to form a carbamic acid intermediate. This acid quickly decomposes by splitting off carbon dioxide and leaving behind a complex amine. This amine then reacts with another isocyanate group to form the polyurea linkage. This two- step reaction is used in what is commonly called polyurea/urethane foam formation. The reactivity of isocyanates makes them harmful to living tissue. They are toxic and are known to cause asthma in humans, both through inhalation exposure and dermal contact. Precaution should always be taken when handling them. Exposure to diisocyanates can cause different medical conditions. Most common are respiratory problems such as a runny nose, coughing or nose bleed. In the case of the amines, it is difficult to be specific since there are many different types involved. Many of them are, however, quite nasty materials. Aromatic and structurally similar amines comprise one of the major groups of carcinogens known to man."
https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/51548...tePaper-14.pdf

[KenBolton]

To muddy the waters a bit more; what about using STP or a mix of 600 in the steering box? This from a discussion over on the Flathead site.

[rotorwrench]

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The W in oil grades has nothing to do with weight. It's just an abbreviation for winter which was a quick way of giving winter viscosity versus normal temperature viscosity. A person can see from the previously posted chart that gear lube oils and engine lube oils are graded differently. The viscosity test is different between the two types.

The Society of Automotive Engineers was formed in 1905 with Henry Ford as one of the founding members. Lubricating oils were not the first consideration for SAE standards since many things in materials and fasteners had to be hashed out in order to set some real usable standards. Castor oil was used for engine oils for some time in aviation and likely for automotive use as well. The steam cylinder lubricants predated the SAE by nearly forty years so 600 was not part of the SAE grading system but it was still in wide use as a heavy lubricating oil as late as the early 1930s. The use of SAE lubricants replaced the 600 in the early V8 era for steering gears and rear axles, transmissions, etc.

The thixotropic greases like John Deere corn header gearbox grease are a type of grease that will flow with movement but remain static with no movement. These types would be the only grease like substance that would be usable in a steering gearbox. Getting them out for changing of lubricant would be problematic but most folks don't change the oil in a steering gear anyway since most don't have a drain plug. The lubricant level would have to be such that all internal bearing surfaces will be subjected to lubrication or it won't be effective. It's usually problematic if the box is overfilled.

[Licensed to kill]

Personally, I run CHG in my steering gears and should the bushings prematurely fail, I will change them and switch to oil. Not a big deal. I reality, corn head grease would likely work perfect in the transmission as well and likely shift a lot better. I ended up with CHG in my tranny because i put it in the U-joint and over filled it pushing it into the trans. I changed the oil in the trans (it was WAY overfull) but rally should have just lowered the level and let 'er buck. Corn head grease in action. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zNhli-J0Gk

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by KenBolton

To muddy the waters a bit more; what about using STP or a mix of 600 in the steering box? This from a discussion over on the Flathead site.

Nothing at all Ken, ...this was the way it was typically done back in the 60s & 70s when Model-A club members used to blend their favorite wheel bearing grease, STP, and a little 90 weight gear lube to just the right consistency. Almost like bragging rights.

I can clearly remember one time when several guys in the Houston Model-A club brought their own preferred "mix" to a club meeting (-I'm guessing in the late 1960s) and gosh did it stink the room up when they started Show & Tell. One 'sample' was brought to the meeting in an old glass mayonnaise jar. I know because it was my job to hold it while riding to & from the club meeting!

[Mister Moose]

Originally Posted by updraught

"Corn head grease is a polyurea thickened, soft NLGI 0
grade lubricating grease. A hybrid between a fluid gear lubricant and lubricating grease, it functions as a robust gear lubricant when meshed in the interface between two gear sets, such as those in a John Deere combine corn head gear case. However, because it is grease rather than a fluid gear lubricant, it stays in the gear case even when a worn seal would cause a traditional fluid lubricant to leak. This grease property is described as being thixotropic, meaning the grease softens and flows when sheared, then thickens back to its normal consistency to provide a leak proof sealing barrier when the equipment is not running. Corn head grease contains all the necessary additives to resist wear and corrosion"

If it only flows between gear teeth when meshed and then solidifies, it will never flow to the sector housing, correct?

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

We kinda went off topic here with the 600W viscosity, so let me ask this again, ...with the ones who use grease, how is/are the sector bushings getting lubricated?

My plan was to use the fitting pictured below – unscrew it and see if anything comes out, and then if not, pour in a bit of heated 00 grease. That fitting is aligned with the channel in the bushing for mine as of when I had it rebuilt a year ago.

[henry's 31]

Hi Brent:


As always, great explanation that makes a lot of sense to me.


Thanks for sharing.

[Ruth]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The W in oil grades has nothing to do with weight. It's just an abbreviation for winter which was a quick way of giving winter viscosity versus normal temperature viscosity. A person can see from the previously posted chart that gear lube oils and engine lube oils are graded differently. The viscosity test is different between the two types.

You may be correct on the "W" being the abbreviation for "winter". But originally the abbreviation "wt." was used in this discussion. Wt. is the abbreviation for weight.

Then someone brings up "600W is a designation not the weight." So what does that "W" stand for in this case? It gets pretty confusing when we are not even referring to the same thing.

I can only assume my sector shaft is getting lubed as I am getting a small amount of fluid on the inside of my frame rail and engine pan. Since using the sector "O" ring and washer, along with the Penrite Steering Box "Fluid", nothing shows on the outside of the frame rail. That I can live with.

[Ranchero50]

I've been through Mobil's industrial maintenance training a couple times. According to them the difference between grease and oils is that the grease is just oil with a "body" additive so it doesn't run off. The problem with greases in gear applications is that the oil will separate out of the "body", then evaporate / leak and you'll end up with plenty of dry clay like material but minimal lubricating oil.

Per my 7 tooth gearbox I chose to mix grease and 140 gear oil and fill it from the side before putting the cover on. I also used the light rod tube and O ring for the sector gear shaft to help minimize leaks. My gearbox steering shaft also had a good bit of axial movement the went away once I removed the gaskets and sealed it with some good RTV. I chose the mix because the body in the grease would keep the oil suspended better than the grease or oil alone. 6 months without a leak so I'm happy.

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by Ruth

You are correct on the "W" being the abbreviation for "winter". But originally the abbreviation "wt." was used in this discussion. Wt. is the abbreviation for weight.

Then someone brings up "600W is a designation not the weight." So what does that "W" stand for in this case? It gets pretty confusing when we are not even referring to the same thing.

WT was also an abbreviation for winter that was used by some companies but is no longer in use for the most part due to confusion.

Steam cylinder oil has always had the 600 designation since Vacuum Oil Co first developed the Gargoyle 600. The W added just means that it meets the specifications of the 600 designation in cold weather. Steam engines function with super heated steam that leaves its water behind during the expansion process in the engine. Hot water has a tendency to wash oil off rather quickly so the 600 designation was blended to be able to cling even when wet. Tallow was used in those early years but modern tacifiers are used in the modern era. Here is a product spec sheet for Mobil 600W:
https://petroleumservicecompany.com/...EROILS_PDS.pdf

A person can compare the ISO viscosity index with the ones in the previous charts and see where the index falls within the SAE/ASTM viscosity index points.

[katy]

Originally Posted by Ranchero50

The problem with greases in gear applications is that the oil will separate out of the "body", then evaporate / leak and you'll end up with plenty of dry clay like material but minimal lubricating oil.

Lubriplate brand grease is bad for separating, it even separates when sitting in a container.

[Patrick L.]

I wrote a college paper on oils back in the days of antiquity.

Its my understanding that with the discovery on multi-weight oils the 'W' was the number of the fluidity weight/flow rate of cold oil and the second number was the film strength. 10W-30 flows like 10 weight when cold with the film strength always of 30 weight.

[rotorwrench]

Greases are just soaps of various types that hold oil in situ. Some soaps hold oil better than others.

Not all methods of viscosity measurement use gravity under ASTM D445. Even then, it is the measure of flow or resistance to movement that is important. Weight really doesn't mean much unless specific gravity is drastically different. Folks got used to the term weight way back there when the W in the mix was not that well understood.

[duke36]

I've had the corn head separate and liquefy in the 2 tooth steering box, tending to leak more than expected. Switched over to modern 1500wt lube in the steering and rear end.. Also, the box has a lube fitting for (non lithium) grease in the sector shaft similar to post 30 to lubricate the bronze bushings.

[Aarongriffey]

Since CV joints are known to last up to 300 thousand miles and take a lot more of a beating than a steering box I have been packing model T and model A universal joints, and steering boxes, with CV joint grease.
I also use it in non power steering rack & pinion steering units.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

I wrote a college paper on oils back in the days of antiquity.

Its my understanding that with the discovery on multi-weight oils the 'W' was the number of the fluidity weight/flow rate of cold oil and the second number was the film strength. 10W-30 flows like 10 weight when cold with the film strength always of 30 weight.

NOT "weight"! It's "Winter"! In the early days of the automobile, oil viscosity was tested and rated as SAE10, 20, 30, etc. As oils improved, oil companies were able to produce oils that flowed better when cold (like at 0 deg.) but kept their viscosity when hot. Thus, SAE 20W flowed better in the Winter than a straight 20 but did not thin out any more when hot (maintained its SAE 20 rating).

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

NOT "weight"! It's "Winter"! In the early days of the automobile, oil viscosity was tested and rated as SAE10, 20, 30, etc. As oils improved, oil companies were able to produce oils that flowed better when cold (like at 0 deg.) but kept their viscosity when hot. Thus, SAE 20W flowed better in the Winter than a straight 20 but did not thin out any more when hot (maintained its SAE 20 rating).

Somewhat.

As said, flow rate when cold. Winter is still a misnomer. Old still gets thinner when hot.

[Jack Shaft]

High pressure grease would be effective provided you could insure full distribution, which requires the unit to be designed for grease lubrication. That's the issue, the lubricating factor of high pressure grease is more than adequate to protect the steering gear. The pour point of SAE 250 is why its recommended, it will flow to the bearing area.

[Jack Shaft]

Synthetics are another option. I haven't searched but there might be a 'designer' synthetic gear oil that fits the bill, flow well enough to properly lubricate but not leak as bad as dinosaur oil.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com...hetic-gear-oil

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

Somewhat.

As said, flow rate when cold. Winter is still a misnomer. Old still gets thinner when hot.

Yes, ...and an average Winter in South Texas is still warmer than most Summers in upstate New York. So Winter (-or W) means 'what'? Adding 10% Kerosene to the 600W was an additional viscosity that the engineers prescribed for use in Transmission & Differential gearboxes during cold temperatures.


.




The bottom line is whether the W meant weight, winter blend, -or whatever, ...mechanics knew that engine oil was thinner than 600W and grease was thicker than 600W. It is funny how the topic always veers in this petty discussion over what the W means, ...and only Colin responded back about how he knew his sector bushings were going to be lubricated.

IMHO, a generic response such as 'mine still leaks out of the sector housing so I know those bushings are still getting lubed' does not really ensure the thrust areas of the bushings are being lubricated. To me, it indicates the bushings in the housing are worn (-likely from lack of lubrication!!). When the original type bushings are used and installed correctly, there is an oil channel in the thrust surfaces where the original 600 lube was channeled so the moving sector would/could distribute the oil. If we agree the 600 lube is thinner than the Penrite/Cornhead/00 Grease, -and if the 600 lube did not freely leak from the sector, ...then how is it the above mentioned grease which is designed to stay where it is put can leak out of the sector housing?

As I said in my opening comment in post #1, we have been experimenting with the 00 greases however the reason I don't say the 600W to 00 Grease is a direct substitute is because of what I feel can be inadequate bushing lubrication after assembly. Again, some of the 1929 sector housings that already have the grease fitting have an easy remedy for this. Others, not so much IMO. So why is the Sector Bushings so important? Having & using the slickest lubricant known to man does no good if the Sector is allowed to move enough where the teeth engagement onto the worm gear is compromised. Inadequate sector bushing lubrication will cause premature wear. Defining exactly what the word 'premature' is opens a whole new topic though. I guess this is similar to when President Clinton made the statement "It depends on what your definition of 'Is' is."

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[rotorwrench]

When a person starts a discussion like this, it is not unusual for it to go on and on. There will likely still be folks putting grease in steering gears for years to come. It's just human nature to do the easy thing and not necessarily the correct thing (whatever that is). Ford could have put a grease fitting on the sector bushing but that would have just confused things even more and made a different discussion about what to do about the grease in the steering gear from greasing the sector shaft.

600W (modern) steam cylinder oil likely has little or no tallow in it in the modern era but good old straight grade SAE 140 would be more appropriate but it doesn't need GL5 EP additive content. A GL1 or GL4 type should work OK. Mixing grease soaps, gear oils, and viscosity builders like STP will make some kind of lubricant but it sounds like a pita to me.

I'm never surprised when folks think there is something wrong with a little drip from a model A component after driving a while. This technology wasn't exactly designed not to leak some. This is why Ford made charts for periodic lubrication schedules.

[Gold Digger]

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I don't know if it was the right kind of lube or not but when I was a kid in the little farming town I grew up in the local garage was where all the loafers ganged up every day. This one day an old boy drove up in a model a coupe needing a grease job. The mechanic was covered up but he told him that he could use the grease rack and air grease gun if he was in a big hurry. Well everything went good underneath the car but when he let it down and was greasing the steering sector the grease gun was going cha, cha, cha, when the mechanic came out of the garage cussing up a storm. "What are you doing"? he asked. Then he opened the door and there was pile of grease that looked like a big cow patty that came out the horn hole in the steering wheel. That steering sector probable got lubed good for a while.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Gold Digger

I don't know if it was the right kind of lube or not but when I was a kid in the little farming town I grew up in the local garage was where all the loafers ganged up every day. This one day an old boy drove up in a model a coupe needing a grease job. The mechanic was covered up but he told him that he could use the grease rack and air grease gun if he was in a big hurry. Well everything went good underneath the car but when he let it down and was greasing the steering sector the grease gun was going cha, cha, cha, when the mechanic came out of the garage cussing up a storm. "What are you doing"? he asked. Then he opened the door and there was pile of grease that looked like a big cow patty that came out the horn hole in the steering wheel. That steering sector probable got lubed good for a while.

I've been seriously thinking about buying a bag of NPT plugs to put in the steering column and other places. Not for me, but in case the next owner takes a more literal approach to grease fittings.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Yes, ...and an average Winter in South Texas is still warmer than most Summers in upstate New York. So Winter (-or W) means 'what'? Adding 10% Kerosene to the 600W was an additional viscosity that the engineers prescribed for use in Transmission & Differential gearboxes during cold temperatures.


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The bottom line is whether the W meant weight, winter blend, -or whatever, ...mechanics knew that engine oil was thinner than 600W and grease was thicker than 600W. It is funny how the topic always veers in this petty discussion over what the W means, ...and only Colin responded back about how he knew his sector bushings were going to be lubricated.

IMHO, a generic response such as 'mine still leaks out of the sector housing so I know those bushings are still getting lubed' does not really ensure the thrust areas of the bushings are being lubricated. To me, it indicates the bushings in the housing are worn (-likely from lack of lubrication!!). When the original type bushings are used and installed correctly, there is an oil channel in the thrust surfaces where the original 600 lube was channeled so the moving sector would/could distribute the oil. If we agree the 600 lube is thinner than the Penrite/Cornhead/00 Grease, -and if the 600 lube did not freely leak from the sector, ...then how is it the above mentioned grease which is designed to stay where it is put can leak out of the sector housing?

As I said in my opening comment in post #1, we have been experimenting with the 00 greases however the reason I don't say the 600W to 00 Grease is a direct substitute is because of what I feel can be inadequate bushing lubrication after assembly. Again, some of the 1929 sector housings that already have the grease fitting have an easy remedy for this. Others, not so much IMO. So why is the Sector Bushings so important? Having & using the slickest lubricant known to man does no good if the Sector is allowed to move enough where the teeth engagement onto the worm gear is compromised. Inadequate sector bushing lubrication will cause premature wear. Defining exactly what the word 'premature' is opens a whole new topic though. I guess this is similar to when President Clinton made the statement "It depends on what your definition of 'Is' is."

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LOL. I agree, this is a petty argument. Probably always will be.

[DHZIEMAN]

The 1930 Model A I purchased in 2016, I did not notice the grease fitting kind of added to the steering box, and the steering really was not right, but, got it home, got as much grease as I could out of the box, added diesel and kept working it with a some mixing and suction, and got all I could and replaced it with whatever modern 600w is. I expected the reason for the grease was leakage, but to my surprise, no leaks with the 600W, but then again maybe I did not get out all the grease, not sure! With that said, steering still is not right but, it is on the list to get done. I would venture with some improvements since 1930, grease in place of oil might work on some things but Henry was big on 600W and that is fine with me!

[hudson32700]

I use John Deere corn head grease and it seems to work fine.

[psimet]

Here to raise the thread from the dead... I appreciate the nuances of these discussions but I also find (as a recovering engineer) that I experience heavy "analysis paralysis".

Reviving my 28 with a 7-tooth setup. Grease fittings on it. look like possibly more modern versions that my uncle may have put on in the 70's. Pull them both out and use "600W" oil and replace with NPT plugs? Mix up my own 00 / 600w homebrew and fill a "grease" gun with it and pump a few pumps in?

or pump a couple pumps of grease into what is probably a box filled with dried up grease and walk away for now until the inevitable re-build?

The lighting switch housing is covered in what can only be described as a thick layer of oily separated grease. Might also be because I had to spray the control rods down with penetrating oil at the upper bushing just to get them to move....

Advice? I'm willing to do whatever (short of pulling everything and rebuilding it now).

[alexiskai]

Start a new thread, you're gonna get a lot of (good) advice and this is a zombie thread on a separate topic.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by psimet

Here to raise the thread from the dead... I appreciate the nuances of these discussions but I also find (as a recovering engineer) that I experience heavy "analysis paralysis".

Reviving my 28 with a 7-tooth setup. Grease fittings on it. look like possibly more modern versions that my uncle may have put on in the 70's. Pull them both out and use "600W" oil and replace with NPT plugs? Mix up my own 00 / 600w homebrew and fill a "grease" gun with it and pump a few pumps in?

or pump a couple pumps of grease into what is probably a box filled with dried up grease and walk away for now until the inevitable re-build?

The lighting switch housing is covered in what can only be described as a thick layer of oily separated grease. Might also be because I had to spray the control rods down with penetrating oil at the upper bushing just to get them to move....

Advice? I'm willing to do whatever (short of pulling everything and rebuilding it now).

As Colin suggested, it may be better to start a new thread but since you did post something here, let me just give you a couple of quickie suggestions. Jack-up the front end and place on stands to take the load off of the steering gearbox. Find some 85/140 gear oil at your local parts store of choice and top off the gearbox. Begin turning the steering wheel from lock to lock to begin working the new lube into the existing grease. Yes, it like likely leak out of the sector housing or out of the lower end, but this should be fluid enough to begin remixing with whatever is in the box. Later you can change to a different weight lube when it meets your timeline.