Tri-power issues

[SoCalCoupe]

I have an original Tri-Power setup (3 Holley 2-bbls) on my ’62 Galaxie, and it’s very hard to start when hot. It will eventually fire with the accelerator floored and lots of cranking. I’ve seen similar issues fixed with new condensers and coils, but that hasn’t helped. Plug wires check out, so I don’t think ignition is the issue.


I’ve gone through float levels, carb linkage, idle throttle positions, and idle mixture extensively, following 3deucesV2 from HPTrends.com, and I believe it’s well-tuned.


However, when the engine is warm, turned off, and sitting still, I notice fuel vapor rising from the middle carb. The float level looks fine through the sight hole, so I suspect a leak—possibly in the idle circuit, bowl, or metering block gaskets. Warped mating surfaces on the bowl and metering block could also be a factor.


Another issue: the car idles well after a cold start (choke off), but once fully warmed up, it stalls when I let off the gas and push in the clutch. Raising the idle speed helped somewhat, but then I noticed something odd—when coasting and clutching in, the engine stays at a cruising RPM for a few seconds before settling at the new, higher idle. Possibly, I’ve raised the idle into the transition circuit.


My next step is to pull the middle carb and inspect it, but I’d appreciate any recommendations on what to check and anything else to look for.

[robib]

To start off, the fuel we use today is not like that of "yesterday's gasoline". The boiling point of today's fuel is much lower, which can lead to many problems with carbureted engines. The problem I hear most often is hard starting with a hot engine after the car has been sitting for a short time. This is the first problem you asked about.



Your car has tripower, which means you have a fuel rail along with the three carbs. When you shut the engine off, the temperature of the engine increases (can go over 200 degrees F) from the lack of coolant flowing. The temperature of the fuel in the fuel rail and the carbs also increases to the point that it starts to boil. The fuel also expands and has no place to go except to override the needles and seats in the carbs. So now the fuel dumps into the intake manifold effectively flooding the engine and a very hard "HOT" start. With a single carbureted engine a fuel pressure regulator could be installed right at the carburetor, which would stop any additional fuel from entering. There still would be fuel in the carburetor which could expand and enter the intake, but the effect would not be as bad. With tripower, you would need three regulators and there location would "where"? I have one other thought. The other brand (GM), has fuel pumps with return lines to the fuel tank as a stock system (70s cars). If you could set up a return line (1/4"), that may stop your hard starting problem. As stated above, we are not dealing with gasoline, we are dealing with fuel designed for today's fuel injected engines. I hope this has given you info and ideas of how to "fi" your problem.

[Gene F]

So, this is a flathead?

I have triple Holley/Ford 94s on my Y-block. I am guessing progressive linkage. Call Speedway Motors and get a phenolic gasket (shallow spacer) to go under your primary carb. If there is a heat riser tube for a choke on that intake you need to block that off.

Sounds like float, or powervalve to me.

As for the starting, try this, as you turn the key slowly advance the accelerator pedal to about 1/8th open. I have wire loom wrap (plastic on my car) over the fuel line from the pump up to the carbs. Make sure your ignition points are opening enough.

My carbs have a regulator and a gage. 1lbs to 1.5 lbs. Some crabs run on very low fuel pressure. Pressure is not the same as volume. Be careful about upping the idle to cure a problem. That can have downstream consequences on some carbs (like on a Model-A ford).

Pull a sparkplug. What does it look like? don't over-analyze it. Just take a look.

Putting a heat spacer under the middle carb is one thing, but if you crack that carb open a vendor will tell you you own it.

[miker98038]

One of the things I noticed over the years. When I parked the car at a show with the hood up, it cooled off and started right up. I started lifting the hood in the garage, same result. Didn’t work so good in the grocery parking lot. But it quickly established it was heat, and probably due to ethanol. I never had to do that in the old days.

[SoCalCoupe]

Originally Posted by robib

To start off, the fuel we use today is not like that of "yesterday's gasoline". The boiling point of today's fuel is much lower, which can lead to many problems with carbureted engines. The problem I hear most often is hard starting with a hot engine after the car has been sitting for a short time. This is the first problem you asked about.

Your car has tripower, which means you have a fuel rail along with the three carbs. When you shut the engine off, the temperature of the engine increases (can go over 200 degrees F) from the lack of coolant flowing. The temperature of the fuel in the fuel rail and the carbs also increases to the point that it starts to boil. The fuel also expands and has no place to go except to override the needles and seats in the carbs. So now the fuel dumps into the intake manifold effectively flooding the engine and a very hard "HOT" start. With a single carbureted engine a fuel pressure regulator could be installed right at the carburetor, which would stop any additional fuel from entering. There still would be fuel in the carburetor which could expand and enter the intake, but the effect would not be as bad. With tripower, you would need three regulators and there location would "where"? I have one other thought. The other brand (GM), has fuel pumps with return lines to the fuel tank as a stock system (70s cars). If you could set up a return line (1/4"), that may stop your hard starting problem. As stated above, we are not dealing with gasoline, we are dealing with fuel designed for today's fuel injected engines. I hope this has given you info and ideas of how to "fi" your problem.

Sounds like you know your stuff, and that all makes sense—plenty to consider. I adjusted the tune to shift more idle fuel to the outer carbs, allowing me to close the middle carb’s throttle slightly, but I haven’t test-driven it yet. If that doesn’t resolve the issue, I’ll pull the middle carb, inspect the gaskets and accelerator pump for leaks, and run another test. Sounds like I shouldn’t expect that alone to be the fix.


This is a rare car, so keeping it original matters to me. But I also won’t tolerate unreliable hot starts—it takes the fun out of driving. If necessary, I may have to consider reversible but non-original mods as you suggest. If it comes to that, I’d likely go all in with an FiTech Tri-Power setup for full drivability and EFI convenience

Originally Posted by miker98038

One of the things I noticed over the years. When I parked the car at a show with the hood up, it cooled off and started right up. I started lifting the hood in the garage, same result. Didn’t work so good in the grocery parking lot. But it quickly established it was heat, and probably due to ethanol. I never had to do that in the old days.

Bingo! That's the pattern. Hood up, few issues. Hood down, bad day. Car's not really usable like this for a road tour with multiple starts and stops in a day.

Originally Posted by Gene F

So, this is a flathead?

No, not a flathead. It's 406 cid FE engine (same basic block design as 390 and 427 V8's), 405 HP, G-code, factory tri-power. It was only made for
about a year between 1962 1/2 and 1963 1/2.

[KULTULZ]

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Well, I cannot contain myself any longer ...

What you are experiencing is ETHANOL BLENDED GASOLINE SYNDROME.

- https://www.carburetor-parts.com/pro...r-from-ethanol

Is the car a survivor/restoration and/or is it used as a driver? You're wanting to keep as FACTORY ASSEMBLED?

The 1st thing to do is carb(s) tear-down to see if any internal damage from ethanol. Use only ETHANOL RATED CARB KITS and any rubber fuel lines.

Have you checked the fuel filter for tank rust?

You are working with a MULTI-CARB SETUP and is much more difficult to get in tune than a single carb.

The 2nd thing to do is take the CHI-CON points and condenser out and throw them as far as you can into an open field. Use PERTONIX IGN II.

And it is very disrespectful to come on here asking for advice and not showing photos of a GENUINE 1962 GALAXIE G-CODE ... (cover your plates and PATENT PLATE)

... tsk ... tsk ... tsk ...

[SoCalCoupe]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Is the car a survivor/restoration and/or is it used as a driver? You're wanting to keep as FACTORY ASSEMBLED?


And it is very disrespectful to come on here asking for advice and not showing photos of a GENUINE 1962 GALAXIE G-CODE ... (cover your plates and PATENT PLATE)

... tsk ... tsk ... tsk ...

It's restored to original but not a perfect show car. I take it to local Cars & Coffee events a couple of times a month and enjoy longer cruises with my car club and other groups. I don’t want a museum piece that just sits—I prefer to drive and enjoy my cars. So, it's a balance. I aim to keep this one as original as possible while making it a reliable driver.


If I can't have both, I'd MUCH rather sit in a parking lot and make excuses for a "non-correct" part than make excuses for a car that won't start.


I have taken all three carbs apart and checked for problems and used brand new Holley-brand rebuild kits to replace gaskets that couldn't be reused.


Haven't checked the fuel filter yet because I haven't seen it as a problem.


Ignition seems strong although I did replace the coil and condenser with the best NAPA parts I could find.

[KULTULZ]

Well, how did the rebuilds go? Have you re-installed?

How were the carbs internally (zinc oxide or trash)?

You need a combination fuel pressure and vacuum gauge to even begin to diagnose the problem(s) (IMO).

Haven't checked the fuel filter yet because I haven't seen it as a problem.

How often do you replace the filter?

BTW - CELLULOSE filter media breaks down in ethanol laced gasoline and then resides in carb passages)

Ignition seems strong although I did replace the coil and condenser with the best NAPA parts I could find.

Ya' know, NOS MOTORCRAFT IGN is readily available for the most part. Anything else is junk.

KULTULZ - Well, I cannot contain myself any longer ...

- OUT! -

BTW - ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL CAR!

[SoCalCoupe]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Well, how did the rebuilds go? Have you re-installed?

How were the carbs internally (zinc oxide or trash)?

You need a combination fuel pressure and vacuum gauge to even begin to diagnose the problem(s) (IMO).

How often do you replace the filter?

Ya' know, NOS MOTORCRAFT IGN is readily available for the most part. Anything else is junk.

I've only had the car a year and put about 1,000 miles on it.


Wasn't really a carb rebuild. Just checking things out. When I bought the car, I was told the carbs had been rebuilt within the past year. Discovered that whoever rebuilt them is incompetent. One carb float was off the hook because the retainer clip was incorrectly installed. It was blowing raw gas through the engine and I was getting about 3 mpg. Two of the accelerator pumps were held on with 3 rather than 4 screws and leaking badly. Insides were clean. I fixed the float and accelerator pump issues and installed the new float bowl and metering block gaskets. Now getting about 7 mpg in stop and go driving, 10 mpg on a trip.


Agree with "fuel pressure and vacuum gauge to even begin to diagnose the problem."


Since I haven't had it very long I haven't replaced the fuel filter.


Yes, finding quality traditional ignition parts is a major issue for the hobby.

[miker98038]

At 7miles per gallon, sounds like the fuel supply is ok. It’s not running short. But I think going thru the whole works is probably the thing to do.

That’s gorgeous, and a well optioned FE is a jewel. Good luck and enjoy the ride.

[Abe Lugo]

Nice car. 7mpg is crap. For that level of car maybe consider finding a local shop that can help. Armchair advice is just that. Just Advice.
I have had similar issues on my 41 Cad. One of the main things was getting the right regulator pressure. Also my car 500 engine so I found the correct sized carb for it and that help even more.
One I would recommend is getting the progressive carbs timed correctly if not already.
Also consider if your hot start are not working. See if you can shoot some fuel down the center and crank it to see if it's lack of fuel getting through. Or is it solenoid or actually the ignition. There only a few thing to check on non-hot start happening. Some people will run an inline electric fuel pump just to get the fuel going, start the car and the shit off the electric pump.
As far as either electric ignition or points. It don't matter. You just need to have the time set clean and easy to fire.

Find other guys with tripower set up and ask more info.

Quick search gave me this. https://www.fordfe.com/tri-power-question-t67677.html

[KULTULZ]

That is a 1962 version (other 4V) of the 1960-1965 FORD HI-PO cars.

I would hate to think of it's value.

It should do a little better on fuel but it needs to be gone through. Having only a mechanical advance DIST isn't helping street fuel mileage either, along with a heavy foot.

I just realized that it was the same car discussed in the HP WHEEL COVERS THREAD.

[KULTULZ]

As far as either electric ignition or points. It don't matter. You just need to have the time set clean and easy to fire.

Wrong answer.

This is a 406 HP ENGINE. It was not meant to be a street engine unless released in a specialty car.

I can't imagine where he found points for the DIST.

She runs fat (as designed) and needs a hot ignition to fire it. It ran cold plugs (should) and they foul very easily on the street.

For someone that disdains armchair advice, you seem to throw it around awfully easily.

This is exactly why I hesitated to participate at first.

I am retiring.

[Gene F]

Cool car.

[SoCalCoupe]

Gentlemen, thank you for your interest, your comments and complements. You've given me a lot to think about. I'll check around for a shop to be trusted to "go through it" although I'm very pessimistic I can find one.


Yes, as described by Ford, it's a "super hi performance" engine. It's not really a street engine. It's one of the original muscle cars. Many were drag raced but the full sized car is too heavy. There was an aftermarket kit with fiberglass fenders and hood and an aluminum bumper.


How the engine fit's into NASCAR I really don't know. I do know that the square-back roof was an aerodynamic failure in NASCAR. The 1963 1/2 fastback Galaxie fixed the problem.


In the meantime, I'll take my 1941 Ford Special Business Coupe cruising this weekend. It has a 239 cid bored and sleeved flathead that supposedly makes 90 hp. I've added dual carbs with an Eddie Myer intake that I expect will take me to 91 or 92 hp.

[BW]

On the restart do you pump the gas? If so try starting it without pumping the gas.

[KULTULZ]

It's one of the original muscle cars.

The MUSCLE CAR ERA ran from 1964 to 1973 and was intermediate size cars fitted with a period full size car large engine(s).

What you have is a FORD HP full-size car (GALAXIE trimout for 1962) with a thumper engine, specially built in limited numbers for the street.

- https://www.hemmings.com/stories/fun...fords-1960-67/

The 406CI ENGINE was FORD's offering for the 1962 NASCAR season.

[SoCalCoupe]

Did some private messaging and talked with folks in my car club. The FI Tech tri-power EFI setup does not get good reviews. There's a company that has awesome reviews that makes an EFi tri-power setup but the price is really high. I've also found a local company with an awesome reputation to go through the original tri-power set-up, also very expensive. Not complaining about the cost, I can afford it. There are plenty of people willing to charge you high prices, just want to make sure I get my money's worth. Think I'll check out the original rebuilder before I go with the custom EFI.

[miker98038]

Dollars to donuts, if you could buy non ethanol fuel you’d see a difference. But in CA you probably can’t. Guys that are close to a station run it up here, I fill cans with it for the emergency generators and small engines. Stores much better. But for me it’s a pita for a driven car.

Maybe an electric fan with a time delay off? Just enough to move some air thru when stopped? I know, battery load and ugly.

But thanks for the feedback on the FI Tech. The real world is different from the advertising and use.

[KULTULZ]

Thankfully you caught yourself before committing. TBI is old tech and eye candy only.

You have a very special fuel intake assembly. Shop around and get opinions. It would be difficult and expensive to get it back.

My understanding is that HOLLEY no longer offers their refurbishing services.

- https://customcarbs.com/index.php/services/holleycarbs