The Ford Barn

Jim Brierley · 03-22-2021, 12:37 PM

There is so much oil flying around in a running Model A engine, stock or pressurized, that I find it hard to believe it's an oiling problem. Don't believe me? Try removing any front cover bolt, and run the engine. Put an oil drip pan under the car before doing this. Good luck!

J Franklin · 03-22-2021, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

There is so much oil flying around in a running Model A engine, stock or pressurized, that I find it hard to believe it's an oiling problem. Don't believe me? Try removing any front cover bolt, and run the engine. Put an oil drip pan under the car before doing this. Good luck!

The OP showed us dry gears so I don't think he was getting too much oil.

KR500 · 03-22-2021, 06:59 PM

I changed a cam gear on a customer's A this year. Marco asked me if it had one of the Cam gear covers with the oiler off the gallery cover. I removed it. When I pulled the cam gear cover before all this the crank and cam gear were bone dry and several teeth of the fiber gear were badly chipped.

Gene F · 03-22-2021, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeK

You are looking at plastic deformation. The cause is the inherent un-damped shock wave that traverses a crankshaft with no front harmonic balancer.

It is only visible because of the great amount of plastic deformation before grain boundary failure your particular gear has. Is it a 'billet' gear or a cast gear? Billet aluminum exhibits great plastic deformation in exchange for a lower Young's modulus of elasticity. Cast aluminum gears are 'stiffer' and generally fracture (break off teeth) before reaching that must plastic movement. It does NOT mean the gear is inferior, nor the mesh.

If you had a layered fiber gear it would crush away to a point of excessive lash. If you had a short fiber compressed gear it would have broken teeth. If you had a typical 319 or 356 alloy cast gear, usually T5 heat treatment, it would be developing grain boundary faults, prior to emminent failure.

The real question is what is happening with your particular engine, or driving settings that is causing this excessive crank shock. Excessive advance? Too hot a plug causing detonation/ spark knock? The next thing to fail will be the rear crank bearing journal. Snap!!

I guess you took it apart because it was noisy, and you were suspicious?

I have heard of the possibility of adding a harmonic balancer. Where would I even get one? I have never seen an A with one. What would the befit be?

The rear journal snapping. Please tell me more about that... I had that happen on my last engine. I might be interested in avoiding that mess again.

Pete · 03-22-2021, 08:08 PM

Too late for this engine but something you might try on the next one is, pull the dipstick before you start the engine each time. Usually you can catch problems before they escalate to terminal problems just by looking at the oil. Aluminum or babbit flakes in the oil are highly visible on the dipstick.

Bryan Thompson · 03-27-2021, 08:23 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Update but no conclusion.
Only the center main is pressured with a copper pipe from oil pump shaft to center bearing cap.
I removed the oil pan, front cover and valve chamber cover.
As you know, the cam gear is buggered up.
The crank gear looks good. Both gears will be replaced.
There were bits of aluminum cam gear in the pan.
There was no aluminum in the valve chamber and no aluminum bits on the oil pump screen.
I am thinking the oil pump failed. If the pump was working the valve chamber would have aluminum in it and some little bits of aluminum would be on the screen.
I hope to look further into it today.
I got my second shot yesterday morning and started feeling poorly so I quit messing with in. I don't think it was the margaritas.

GeneBob · 03-27-2021, 10:08 AM

Whether the shot or the margaritas, another margarita should help. (hair of the dog)
If the oil pump failed, you probably will have other damage. Sounds like you will be going a lot further into this engine.
Hope you have a quick recovery from your shot!
When you get back to the engine, I would like to hear more about it.

Bryan Thompson · 03-27-2021, 12:26 PM

The copper pipe that supplied oil to the center main was broken allowing oil to recirculate in the sump and not get to the valve chamber.

Somebodies nonsense modification failed.

johnneilson · 03-27-2021, 01:30 PM

Hmm, not good.
I have never understood the center main feed without a filter in between or a proper full pressure system.
Hopefully the damage is limited and the solution, besides removing the center lube line is economical.
Also, remove the oil pump dist drive and check the tangs and gear for wear, cheap insurance to replace if worn.
Best, John

hardtimes · 03-30-2021, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Thompson

The copper pipe that supplied oil to the center main was broken allowing oil to recirculate in the sump and not get to the valve chamber.

Somebodies nonsense modification failed.

Hey Bryan,
Heck... that’s what’s known as good news / bad news, eh !

Oh... and Margarita was your mistake... for sure.
Anyone knows .... ITS TWO SHOTS, and a beer...and good to go !!

Bryan Thompson · 03-31-2021, 08:23 AM

The good news is that I investigated a noise and was able to find the problem before my engine was destroyed.
I removed each main cap and inspected the
babbit and measured the clearances. They are all in good shape and have proper clearances..
When the oil pump came out, the top section of the shaft with the bushing was broke off and remained up in the block. It was easily removed.
A repaired oil pump, new cam gear, crank gear, some gaskets and a good cleaning and it will be good to go.
Thanks for all the input.

Big hammer · 03-31-2021, 08:27 AM

Whoopi !!! Go for a nice long drive!

johnneilson · 03-31-2021, 09:00 AM

Bryan,
That is good news to hear, you are lucky.

I have a few (pile) of broken pump housings of various origins, modified V8, aftermarket and stock "A" pumps. Lessons to learn by.

If you put the oil line back in, you may want to use a flexible hose instead of the copper line.

Best of luck, John

GeneBob · 03-31-2021, 01:41 PM

John Neilson has a good point about the oil line. Copper, like most materials, will harden with the flexing from vibration and break. One possibility to consider is true brake line tubing. It is made from multiple layers of steel, tin, and copper (if I remember correctly) so it stands up to vibration.

Bryan Thompson · 03-31-2021, 03:14 PM

These cars have been roaming the planet for over 90 years now without the need for oil pressure.
I am going to eliminate the oil pressure modification.

Tom Endy · 03-31-2021, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Thompson

These cars have been roaming the planet for over 90 years now without the need for oil pressure.
I am going to eliminate the oil pressure modification.

I'll drink a margarita to that.

Tom Endy

Dan McEachern · 04-03-2021, 12:00 PM

Two things that should never go inside an engine- copper tubing and hardware store compression fittings. Steel or stainless tubing is best. Always use sort or long ferrule flared fittings or better yet, Parker or Swagelok style fittings. If you don't have access to Parker or Swagelok, there are tons of them on e-bay and McMaster-Carr sells a nice assortment of a 3rd brand/style of quality fittings- perhaps Flairlok or some such.

03-22-2021, 12:37 PM	#21
Jim Brierley Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Temecula, CA Posts: 4,085	Re: Is this normal wear? Aluminum cam gear There is so much oil flying around in a running Model A engine, stock or pressurized, that I find it hard to believe it's an oiling problem. Don't believe me? Try removing any front cover bolt, and run the engine. Put an oil drip pan under the car before doing this. Good luck!

03-22-2021, 06:59 PM	#23
KR500 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Addison,ll. Posts: 453	Re: Is this normal wear? Aluminum cam gear I changed a cam gear on a customer's A this year. Marco asked me if it had one of the Cam gear covers with the oiler off the gallery cover. I removed it. When I pulled the cam gear cover before all this the crank and cam gear were bone dry and several teeth of the fiber gear were badly chipped.

03-22-2021, 08:08 PM	#25
Pete Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,407	Re: Is this normal wear? Aluminum cam gear Too late for this engine but something you might try on the next one is, pull the dipstick before you start the engine each time. Usually you can catch problems before they escalate to terminal problems just by looking at the oil. Aluminum or babbit flakes in the oil are highly visible on the dipstick.

03-27-2021, 08:23 AM	#26
Bryan Thompson Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Westminster, CA Posts: 14	Re: Is this normal wear? Aluminum cam gear Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Update but no conclusion. Only the center main is pressured with a copper pipe from oil pump shaft to center bearing cap. I removed the oil pan, front cover and valve chamber cover. As you know, the cam gear is buggered up. The crank gear looks good. Both gears will be replaced. There were bits of aluminum cam gear in the pan. There was no aluminum in the valve chamber and no aluminum bits on the oil pump screen. I am thinking the oil pump failed. If the pump was working the valve chamber would have aluminum in it and some little bits of aluminum would be on the screen. I hope to look further into it today. I got my second shot yesterday morning and started feeling poorly so I quit messing with in. I don't think it was the margaritas.

03-27-2021, 10:08 AM	#27
GeneBob Senior Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Denver Area Posts: 433	Re: Is this normal wear? Aluminum cam gear Whether the shot or the margaritas, another margarita should help. (hair of the dog) If the oil pump failed, you probably will have other damage. Sounds like you will be going a lot further into this engine. Hope you have a quick recovery from your shot! When you get back to the engine, I would like to hear more about it.

03-27-2021, 01:30 PM	#29
johnneilson Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: 34.22 N 118.36 W Posts: 1,054	Re: Is this normal wear? Aluminum cam gear Hmm, not good. I have never understood the center main feed without a filter in between or a proper full pressure system. Hopefully the damage is limited and the solution, besides removing the center lube line is economical. Also, remove the oil pump dist drive and check the tangs and gear for wear, cheap insurance to replace if worn. Best, John __________________ As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

03-31-2021, 08:23 AM	#31
Bryan Thompson Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Westminster, CA Posts: 14	Re: Is this normal wear? Aluminum cam gear The good news is that I investigated a noise and was able to find the problem before my engine was destroyed. I removed each main cap and inspected the babbit and measured the clearances. They are all in good shape and have proper clearances.. When the oil pump came out, the top section of the shaft with the bushing was broke off and remained up in the block. It was easily removed. A repaired oil pump, new cam gear, crank gear, some gaskets and a good cleaning and it will be good to go. Thanks for all the input.

03-31-2021, 08:27 AM	#32
Big hammer Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 3,127	Re: Is this normal wear? Aluminum cam gear Whoopi !!! Go for a nice long drive! __________________ Don't force it with a little hammer tap, tap, tap get a bigger hammer tap done

03-31-2021, 09:00 AM	#33
johnneilson Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: 34.22 N 118.36 W Posts: 1,054	Re: Is this normal wear? Aluminum cam gear Bryan, That is good news to hear, you are lucky. I have a few (pile) of broken pump housings of various origins, modified V8, aftermarket and stock "A" pumps. Lessons to learn by. If you put the oil line back in, you may want to use a flexible hose instead of the copper line. Best of luck, John __________________ As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

03-31-2021, 01:41 PM	#34
GeneBob Senior Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Denver Area Posts: 433	Re: Is this normal wear? Aluminum cam gear John Neilson has a good point about the oil line. Copper, like most materials, will harden with the flexing from vibration and break. One possibility to consider is true brake line tubing. It is made from multiple layers of steel, tin, and copper (if I remember correctly) so it stands up to vibration.

03-31-2021, 03:14 PM	#35
Bryan Thompson Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Westminster, CA Posts: 14	Re: Is this normal wear? Aluminum cam gear These cars have been roaming the planet for over 90 years now without the need for oil pressure. I am going to eliminate the oil pressure modification.

04-03-2021, 12:00 PM	#37
Dan McEachern Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 193	Re: Is this normal wear? Aluminum cam gear Two things that should never go inside an engine- copper tubing and hardware store compression fittings. Steel or stainless tubing is best. Always use sort or long ferrule flared fittings or better yet, Parker or Swagelok style fittings. If you don't have access to Parker or Swagelok, there are tons of them on e-bay and McMaster-Carr sells a nice assortment of a 3rd brand/style of quality fittings- perhaps Flairlok or some such.