Alternative Fuels in a Model A

[KGBnut]

I got into an interesting conversation with Pop this afternoon. With the trend toward electric vehicles, the day may come in the future where gasoline is no longer on every street corner. I know that this is completely hypothetical, but as there are fewer consumers of gas and the economies of scale change...the price will go way up, and gas stations may become harder to find than a pay-phone. So, how will we keep our Model As running?

With that in mind I have to ask, has anyone ever successfully converted their Model A's engine to run on alcohol, propane/natural gas, or any other readily available alternative fuel?

I'm curious what's involved. I know that alcohol would require re-jetting the carbs (I seem to remember that alcohol needs to run much richer than gas)? As for propane, can you use a gaseous fuel with a carburetor, or does it have to be fuel injection?

I know it may seem silly, but I'm just curious.

Ken

[updraught]

>>As for propane, can you use a gaseous fuel with a carburetor, or does it have to be fuel injection?

It might be tricky stuffing the propane tank in the dash ...

As the engine management system in an A is a bit limited you are restricted to a ring that goes in the air cleaner for dual fuel, or replacing the carby with a straight gas (propane) unit. The carby replacement has much better performance.
On an overhead valve engine the compression can be raised to 10:1 or so if using straight gas as it has a higher octane rating equivalent.

The GasResearch unit here (photo 2) is a carby replacement. They sometimes do an intake manifold as well for flow. They work well. The red round thing in the first photo is the converter, it decompresses the liquid gas to a vapour while absorbing heat.
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article...s-Power&A=0043

There is also vapour injection and the ultimate, liquid injection (cools the intake as it goes from liquid to gas) if you have a computer.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I used to frequent a Propane place that could put a propane system on ANYTHING that had pistons!
They had BARRELS & BARRELS of REGULATORS/HEAT EXCHANGERS/CARBS/PLUMBING & most anything you could think of!
I'll bet if you asked them to put your "A" on PROPANE, they could do it!!! You'd just have to have a body style that could "hide" a tank.
Just think, if you put a small propane line into the head pipe, along with a trick valve, you could BURN the grass off the roadsides!!!---LOF---AND, "maybe" get PAID for it???
Bill Rascal

[Synchro909]

Over here, we run lots of cars on LPG. That's why we don't call petrol, gas.
I ave had several and the main modern car in the family is dual fuel. Gas outlets are already becoming further apart which all contradicts the movement to cleaner fuels. I don't think I will be doing it again.
I heard the other day that the French government has banned fossil fuel powered cars from 2040. The writing is on the wall "writ large".

[3.6rs]

Originally Posted by KGBnut

I got into an interesting conversation with Pop this afternoon. With the trend toward electric vehicles, the day may come in the future where gasoline is no longer on every street corner. ...

My opinion : That day will not be tomorrow. Not even for the next generation. And if that day would come : what are they going to do with all their fuel ?
(And remember : it's not only Model A's that that will need fuel !)

[mike657894]

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I have worked in the oil fields. And asked the ole timeres. How long till the wells dry up? Answer back: "It doesnt man" What? Dont they slow down? " No." What do you mean? "This well fills that tank with three visits." It seemed from running around to different wells doing basic repairs that the oil wells ran like clock work producing the same amount of oil that they did when they were drilled in the 50s or 70s or 30s. You pumped a couple hundred gallons of water in the well through a hotsy pressure washer. It gave a couple hundred gallons of oil/brine back. The seperator ran it and sent it to the brine or crude tank. My job was to paint rust on this ancient equipment. Gas will out last us.

[Kurt in NJ]

They can also be run on a wood gas generator

[Tony Hillyard]

I have a great friend who live in Melbourne, Australia. He had several modern cars fitted with LPG conversions. They never did run very well, economic yes, but they were not a nice car to drive.

Perhaps it's down to the companies that do the conversions. You do need good engineers to set them up and service them.

He now has a normal gasoline powered car. LPG was too much hassle.

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW:

I remember hearing of a guy in our rural area in about 1920 whose old used car broke down, so he hitched up his pair of farm mules to his car to bring his family to church in his car.

The following Sunday, he went out to his car and saw a flat tire with no spare, being in a hurry, he loaded his family in a wood skiff and pulled them to church with the same two mules.

Something tells me we human beings will always find some way to survive a crisis.

[updraught]

Lawrence of Arabia said "A Rolls in the desert is above rubies".

I guess he was just making do with what he had.

[Lawrie]

I saw flathead ted had a hydrogen generator on his 34 V8,
Lawrie

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Tony Hillyard

I have a great friend who live in Melbourne, Australia. He had several modern cars fitted with LPG conversions. They never did run very well, economic yes, but they were not a nice car to drive.

Perhaps it's down to the companies that do the conversions. You do need good engineers to set them up and service them.

He now has a normal gasoline powered car. LPG was too much hassle.

As I said in my earlier post, I have a car (in Melbourne) on gas and have had several others. I find a slight drop in power but other than that, you wouldn't know the difference. Just the same to drive and run just as well, a few horsepower off the top excepted. Gas about halves your fuel bill and at the prices we have to pay, that's significant. I don't know who you have been talking to but I think they are dead wrong. What ever, we digress. IMHO, petrol willl be around for long enough that i won't be worried. There are more pressing threats to our way of life than that and I'm NOT getting political.

[Mike V. Florida]

Here is some more thoughts,

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...7789&showall=1

[updraught]

A quick look at that link, and as I alluded to above dual fuel with a carby does not give the best performance. Straight gas (propane) is better. Raising the compression is better. Yes, the distributor curve is different. There isn't as much energy in gas.
A low horsepower engine losing a few horsepower probably isn't a good thing. If you have plenty of horses to spare, you probably won't notice.

The newer computer controlled units are a different kettle of fish altogether.

If the engine has any weakness in the ignition or engine sensors it will likely show up on gas more so than petrol.

[3.6rs]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

...
I heard the other day that the French government has banned fossil fuel powered cars from 2040....

This means : no new cars running on fossil fuel will be sold. All other cars will still be allowed to be driven !

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by 3.6rs

This means : no new cars running on fossil fuel will be sold. All other cars will still be allowed to be driven !

Quite so. Maybe my wording wasn't as specific as it might have been. If the last fossil fuelled car is sold in 2040, they will start disappearing from the roads from then as older cars are not replaced. The last would be gone in about 20 years - probably less. That would be around 2060. By then I'd be setting new records for longevity!!!!

[captndan]

By the time this happens I will be long gone and so will Model A's.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Quite so. Maybe my wording wasn't as specific as it might have been. If the last fossil fuelled car is sold in 2040, they will start disappearing from the roads from then as older cars are not replaced. The last would be gone in about 20 years - probably less. That would be around 2060. By then I'd be setting new records for longevity!!!!

The last surviving Model A will be turned into a hotrod before the last gasoline sale.

[3.6rs]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

...2040, they will start disappearing from the roads from then as older cars are not replaced. The last would be gone in about 20 years - probably less. That would be around 2060. By then I'd be setting new records for longevity!!!!

I don't agree ! : my daily driver for the moment is an 1986 Audi (32 years old) with 300000 km on the clock. Still going strong.
My second Audi (exactly the same, even the color) with 140000 km. So I don't need to buy an electric crap car during my life. And when the Audi's die I still have the A...

[2manycars]

Many years ago there was an article in the model A News about a guy who drove his model A from his home to Washington DC on alcohol, and when he got the the steps of congress, he poured a bottle of Vodka in the tank. He said it ran fine, just needed the GAV opened up a lot more, and he had to preheat the carburetor in the morning with some electric heater that he plugged in at the motel.

[KGBnut]

Like I said, Pop and I were just talking hypothetically. By the way, I don't think the change would be brought about because the planet runs out of gasoline. I agree that we have a long way to go before the 'wells all run dry.' But, as more modern car buyers switch to electric (or some other fuel) either by choice or regulation, fewer outlets will find it economically viable to sell it.

Think about this, it wasn't all that long ago that each town had a couple of blacksmiths. If you need one now, you need to go searching, and may have to drive quite a long way.

I would like to know more about that Article on the fella that drove to DC on alcohol. Anybody have a copy of it?

Ken

[Robert/Texas]

During WWII our next door neighbor (ex-farmer) had a '30 or '31 Chevrolet. He had drilled a hole in the top of the carb and used a syringe to fill/empty the bowl with gas or kerosene. I remember that the car smoked a lot.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

During Gas Rationing, some ran 1/2 gas & 1/2 kerosene, they were a BUGGER to start COLD!!!
Bill W.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by 2manycars

Many years ago there was an article in the model A News about a guy who drove his model A from his home to Washington DC on alcohol, and when he got the the steps of congress, he poured a bottle of Vodka in the tank. He said it ran fine, just needed the GAV opened up a lot more, and he had to preheat the carburetor in the morning with some electric heater that he plugged in at the motel.

Well vodka is mainly just ethanol and water so it would work. But what kind of "alcohol" did the guy use? Ethanol or methanol? Where did he buy it? His fuel mileage would have been lousy! Plus, alcohol is hard to vaporize, especially cold, which is why the guy needed to preheat the carb. You probably have noticed that alcohol burning dragsters have a guy squirting gasoline into the injectors to start the things (and then they often quit until they're warm). Unvaporized alcohol doesn't burn and ends up in the oil, diluting it. Plus it absorbs moisture from the air during storage.
All in all , not very practical!

[KGBnut]

I know that a number of old tractors were designed to run on kerosene, but usually had a small gasoline tank for starting. You would start it on gas just to warm it up for a moment, then switch over to kerosene.

I barely remember being able to get kerosene out of the pump, and it was cheaper than gas. The only place I see it anymore is at the hardware store for use in things like kerosene lamps. I wouldn't even have a guess what it costs now.

Ken

[SeaSlugs]

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Originally Posted by KGBnut

I know that a number of old tractors were designed to run on kerosene, but usually had a small gasoline tank for starting. You would start it on gas just to warm it up for a moment, then switch over to kerosene.

I barely remember being able to get kerosene out of the pump, and it was cheaper than gas. The only place I see it anymore is at the hardware store for use in things like kerosene lamps. I wouldn't even have a guess what it costs now.

Ken

theres one gas station for sure and maybe 2 more around me you buy it by the gallon from the pump. Just has to be pumped into the DOT approved blue plastic container (wont accept the 5 gal metal container even though its labeled kerosine). Unfortunately it was more than the cost of Diesel but cheaper than buying by the gallon can at hardware stores.

[ursus]

Originally Posted by 2manycars

Many years ago there was an article in the model A News about a guy who drove his model A from his home to Washington DC on alcohol, and when he got the the steps of congress, he poured a bottle of Vodka in the tank. He said it ran fine, just needed the GAV opened up a lot more, and he had to preheat the carburetor in the morning with some electric heater that he plugged in at the motel.

With vodka at 40 to 50 percent alcohol (the rest is water) I don't think he could drive on it.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by ursus

With vodka at 40 to 50 percent alcohol (the rest is water) I don't think he could drive on it.

If he dumped in everclear, gem clear, or some other 190 proof stuff its 95-97% alcohol...but yea normal vodka is 40-60 proof.

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Over here, we run lots of cars on LPG. That's why we don't call petrol, gas.
I ave had several and the main modern car in the family is dual fuel. Gas outlets are already becoming further apart which all contradicts the movement to cleaner fuels. I don't think I will be doing it again.
I heard the other day that the French government has banned fossil fuel powered cars from 2040. The writing is on the wall "writ large".

I read an article some time ago in Hemmings that Paris, France has a system in place where only new cars are allowed in the city and the older a car is the further away from the city it is allowed. LPG has a lower BTU content than petrol which won't help the mpg any.
Things like this don't usually end well for the car people.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Growley bear

I read an article some time ago in Hemmings that Paris, France has a system in place where only new cars are allowed in the city and the older a car is the further away from the city it is allowed. LPG has a lower BTU content than petrol which won't help the mpg any.
Things like this don't usually end well for the car people.

You are correct about gas containing less energy per litre but that is not important. What counts is how many $ to get from here to there. Gas costs about half what petrol costs even though you use more of it. That's why it was popular.

[Jeff/Illinois]

When I hear talk like this, and articles announcing the end of gasoline powered cars and electric taking over, etc. I think back to the fall of 1973 when I was working in the local Sunoco gas station.

The big news was that oil was running out, OPEC was shutting us off due to the 1973 Israeli War, we'd all be out of gasoline in just a few short years, prices will go thru the roof IF you can get the stuff,and on and on. And on.

Did that ever happen?? No.

Antique car and muscle car friends were worrying, saying 'we need to ditch these things before they are worthless.' I knew some that actually did just that.

Volvo announcing what they did last week.... maybe maybe not. Pie in the sky Green talk as far as I'm concerned. Basic battery technology is the same today as it was with the 1913 Baker Electric. And every time you re-charge a battery it loses some 'life' they get weaker over time.

No, unless someone can build a GOOD electric vehicle and it hasn't been done yet, you can bank on petroleum being the main fuel source.

And one more thing, always follow the money that is what drives all of this. In reality, Govt. hates fuel efficient cars and electric cars unless they can put extra taxes on them, like the 'tax you pay per mile' that has been kicked around in the past. Today's cars with satellite linkage and your tattle tale 'smart' phone will keep tabs on how many miles you are driving.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

And one more thing, always follow the money that is what drives all of this. In reality, Govt. hates fuel efficient cars and electric cars unless they can put extra taxes on them, like the 'tax you pay per mile' that has been kicked around in the past. Today's cars with satellite linkage and your tattle tale 'smart' phone will keep tabs on how many miles you are driving.

sadly yes - theres a reason our European friends can have small efficient 3-4-6-8 cyl diesel engines in cars that get 40-80mpg all day long. even thier gas engines are well ahead of ours.

If they wanted to we would be driving 100mpg cars by now. Heck my 1980 full carb no computer iron head/block vacuum advance chevette gets 40mpg on the interstate and 32 mixed...thats screaming at 3100 rpm at 65mph...

37 years ago we didnt have fuel injection, variable valve timing, infinite mpg engine braking, cylinder deactivation, carbon fiber, aluminum car panels, aluminum blocks (ok we did but were disastrous - need not mention Vega...) and im still getting better mpg than half the economy cars out there today...

my new 2017 truck is all knowing and sends me via email, onstar, and my dealer a health report of itself every month... I can see my driving habbits, hard stops, hard acceleration when and how many times...also can remote unlock, lock, check current fuel in the tank, current tire psi, and average mpg anywhere in the world via phone or PC...it needs to be less "informative" to me and everyone...

[updraught]

>>No, unless someone can build a GOOD electric vehicle and it hasn't been done yet, you can bank on petroleum being the main fuel source.

I was reading that %25 of all mountain bikes in mountain bikes parks in Germany are now electric.

Volvo is going hybrid.

[RawhideKid]

No, unless someone can build a GOOD electric vehicle and it hasn't been done yet, you can bank on petroleum being the main fuel source.

I guess you haven't heard of Tesla and the break throughs they have been making, enough to build their own battery plant!

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by KGBnut

I know that a number of old tractors were designed to run on kerosene, but usually had a small gasoline tank for starting. You would start it on gas just to warm it up for a moment, then switch over to kerosene.
Ken

KGB,
I operated a Caterpillar-22 that used this system. Little Bitty Dude, looked like a "HOT-TRACKS" TOY--SMOKED like a BITCH I could write a book about my "ADVENTURES" with it!!!
The tracks were SO WORN, Chief & I took out a link in each one, so we could adjust them! (HUSKY TORCH REQUIRED) & a PROFANE Vocabulary
Bill W.

[Synchro909]

And one more thing, always follow the money that is what drives all of this. In reality, Govt. hates fuel efficient cars and electric cars unless they can put extra taxes on them, like the 'tax you pay per mile' that has been kicked around in the past. Today's cars with satellite linkage and your tattle tale 'smart' phone will keep tabs on how many miles you are driving.[/QUOTE]

Let's see'em install that in a Model A!

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I remember when you were HOT STUFF, if you had CAR tires/wheels on your HORSE/MULE drawn wagon, for a trip to town. They hauled rations of HAY/OATS, for return trip "FUEL"--GOD, I'm OOOOOLD!!!
Bill Creaky

[H. L. Chauvin]

Just one (1) actual experience:

Our 1946 Farmall AV had two (2) fuel tanks. Many of the even older vintage Allis-Chalmers and other vintage tractors also had these similar two (2) tanks.

The small tractor tanks were for storage of higher octane gasoline needed for engine starting; and the large tractor tanks were for storage of less expensive, low octane, tractor fuel which one switched to after the tractor started.

The gasoline was more expensive because government officials, (in addition to levying sales taxes), had levied additional Federal Excise Taxes and additional States Excise Taxes to pay for maintaining roads and bridges.

The less expensive tractor fuel, without Excise Taxes, had purple coloring added to this fuel and it was against the law to use this less expensive tractor fuel in cars to avoid higher cost and added taxes.

I remember local State Troopers having road side checks, (mostly in rural areas), where fuel in automobile tanks were checked. If less expensive purple fuel was found in someone's car on a public highway, tickets were issued.

We also heard that Kerosene in our area was never used to fuel Model T's, Model A's or vintage tractors ........... in fact, we heard that those who tried running early vintage cars, (even prior to WWI), found using Kerosene to be a nasty carbon forming and backfiring disaster for gasoline engines.

From the actual stories I heard from 60 years ago, I personally think if "today", a Forum member would "actually" try operating his Model A on Kerosene, or a mixture of Kerosene and gasoline, and report what actually happened, we could hear a 100% real, and true actual experience of a lifetime, about how Model A engines perform with Kerosene.

Any Model A owner volunteers?

[updraught]

Jet fuel?

http://classicroad.com/?p=1044

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by SeaSlugs

sadly yes - theres a reason our European friends can have small efficient 3-4-6-8 cyl diesel engines in cars that get 40-80mpg all day long. even thier gas engines are well ahead of ours.

If they wanted to we would be driving 100mpg cars by now. Heck my 1980 full carb no computer iron head/block vacuum advance chevette gets 40mpg on the interstate and 32 mixed...thats screaming at 3100 rpm at 65mph...

37 years ago we didnt have fuel injection, variable valve timing, infinite mpg engine braking, cylinder deactivation, carbon fiber, aluminum car panels, aluminum blocks (ok we did but were disastrous - need not mention Vega...) and im still getting better mpg than half the economy cars out there today...

my new 2017 truck is all knowing and sends me via email, onstar, and my dealer a health report of itself every month... I can see my driving habbits, hard stops, hard acceleration when and how many times...also can remote unlock, lock, check current fuel in the tank, current tire psi, and average mpg anywhere in the world via phone or PC...it needs to be less "informative" to me and everyone...

BIG brother is watching.

[Growley bear]

Jet fuel is your basic kerosene which is FAA certified for use in aircraft, jet and turbine engines.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Growley bear

Jet fuel is your basic kerosene which is FAA certified for use in aircraft, jet ans turbine engines.

Bear,
I'm waitin' fur my JET-FUEL K-Cup Coffee to "KICK" in!!!
Bill Groggy

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by RawhideKid

I guess you haven't heard of Tesla and the break throughs they have been making, enough to build their own battery plant!

Tesla is the premier example of what is known as Crony Capitalism. The US taxpayer keeps them afloat. Google it. To the tune of 3.1 BILLION dollars. Investors say they will be the next big business failure.

Without government subsidies they will collapse. That is what happened in Denmark a couple years ago when the govt. pulled the plug; Tesla sales tanked.

Tesla crows because they sold 80,000 taxpayer-funded cars last year. Hell, Ford sold 830,000 F-Series trucks alone last year and they weren't government subsidized Ten trucks for every taxpayer paid for Tesla.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by SeaSlugs

If they wanted to we would be driving 100mpg cars by now. Heck my 1980 full carb no computer iron head/block vacuum advance chevette gets 40mpg on the interstate and 32 mixed...thats screaming at 3100 rpm at 65mph...

37 years ago we didnt have fuel injection, variable valve timing, infinite mpg engine braking, cylinder deactivation, carbon fiber, aluminum car panels, aluminum blocks (ok we did but were disastrous - need not mention Vega...) and im still getting better mpg than half the economy cars out there today...
.

"If they wanted to we would be driving 100 mpg cars by now." Really? Do you have proof/evidence? Or just wishful thinking? Or conspiracy theories?
Your old Chevette only weighs 2,000 pounds or less and has maybe 60 HP on a good day and has far fewer of the safety features on new cars (which add weight). It won't come even close to meeting current emission standards (which requires burning more fuel). Does it have A/C? Would a car without A/C and power accessories even sell today?

[Synchro909]

I hope that because of all this talk about running a Model A on Kerosene, nobody tries it. Back in the day, there were two types of Kero. Power Kero and lighting Kero. Power was the one they used in engines sometimes and lighting, as the name suggests was only used for lamps and heating. All we get these days is the poorer quality lighting Kerosene. Using that in an engine creates small, very hard particles that will destroy your engine in short time. DON'T DO IT!

[updraught]

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Looks like power kero is is actually "tractor vaporising oil"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractor_vaporising_oil

and might be called "distillate" in the US.
http://forum1.aimoo.com/the_old_mach...1-1014312.html

[H. L. Chauvin]

Per the request:

1. "Any Model A owner volunteers?" in reply no. 38; and,

2. The: "DON'T DO IT!" in reply no. 45

Model A false rumors about running Model A engines on "real" Kerosene are no different from other concocted false rumors.

Kerosene, also referred to years ago as Coal Oil, and Insurance Oil, were dispensed from "inside" General Merchandise stores.

More volatile and more explosive tractor fuel, (falsely referred to by some as "Kerosene"), was never allowed to be dispensed from "inside" General Merchandise Stores.

We sold 10 cents a gallon "real" Kerosene from about a 100 gallon metal container in my Dad's store.

Hand pumped gas was pumped "outside" at our neighbor's store for 20 cents a gallon.

It was very common in the late 1940's to hear poor car owners next door ask for 20 cents worth of gas ...... poor, people in our rural area had knowledge of the harmful results of trying to mix "real" 10 cents a gallon kerosene with 20 cents a gallon gasoline.

Home Depot sells 5 gallon cans of "real" Kerosene in their stores ..... but not more volatile and explosive fuels designed to be used in internal combustion engines.

Good judgement years ago usually came from common sense after experiencing past bad judgement.

[ed thibodeau]

In 1958 while going to Port Huron jr. college I ran my 31 t/s on fuel oil ( home heating oil ). With a one gal. can with gas under the hood for starting and then switched to the heating oil in the main tank when the engine warmed up. I drove 21 miles to school each way and it ran fine though it smoked a lot, even thru the winter. There was an article in popular mech. or popular science describing how to do it, I wrapped the copper fuel line from the main tank around the exhaust manifold to pre heat the fuel oil

[Tom in Newnan]

Kurt in NJ mentioned the wood gas generator. Tampa Bay Auto Museum has a 1929 Model A sedan with a Gazogene conversion, used in Spain in the late 30's. They claim that it still runs on charcoal. Take a look at the write up at http://www.tbauto.org. Like to see it run!

[updraught]

A couple of quotes from the Wikipedia link above:

"The resulting octane rating of TVO was somewhere between 55 and 70."

... "Because TVO has a lower octane rating than petrol, the engine needs a lower compression ratio. On the TVO version of the Ferguson TE20 tractor, the cylinder head was re-designed to reduce the compression ratio to 4.5:1. This reduced the power output, so the cylinder bore was increased to 85 mm to restore the power.[2] The petrol version had a compression ratio of 5.77:1 and a cylinder bore of 80 mm on early versions.."

So the 1920's fuel must have had an octane rating below 70 for a compression ratio of 4.5:1? So that is why the lead was added?

[dumb person]

Wood gas, Sewer gas... could make an adapter plate to fit an electric motor to the model A trans'.
But i am wondering how hard would it be to pipe hydrogen from a modern fuel cell to a mixer/regulator on the carb' (If you used a sandwich mixer plate thing like i've seen with propane the GAV wouldn't work correctly anymore?)

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...honda-clarity/

[H. L. Chauvin]

Possible vintage thoughts on Reply # 51:

Hydrogen Fuel?

Can anyone imagine possible thoughts of original Model A owners using Hydrogen fuel?

It was May 6, 1937 ........ the Hindenburg ...... Gasoline anyone? LOL

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

"If they wanted to we would be driving 100 mpg cars by now." Really? Do you have proof/evidence? Or just wishful thinking? Or conspiracy theories?
Your old Chevette only weighs 2,000 pounds or less and has maybe 60 HP on a good day and has far fewer of the safety features on new cars (which add weight). It won't come even close to meeting current emission standards (which requires burning more fuel). Does it have A/C? Would a car without A/C and power accessories even sell today?

This is fact. The use of catalytic converters (to lower NOx emission) requires a "fuel rich" exhaust mixture. Think "afterburner" when you think catalytic converter.

We all remember the start of catalytic converters - the run-on dieseling of engines which were operated normally "fuel rich." As in until the carburetor bowl went dry, fuel was being reignited by incandescent carbon.

Fuel injection was basically driven to end this - when the solenoid valve closes on fuel injection - no more fuel.

As to fuel economy - that has been sacrificed in the name of environment.

Until recently I drove a 2003 VW TDI diesel. Computer controlled, the injection was timed in "spurts" to maximize output and minimize knock (which is what you get when all the fuel burns at once.)

The later versions of this engine were even more refined - the side effect being the "ruse" VW put over on both the EPA and the American public. However, that engine in the full size European Passat achieves regularly 65mpg - while the same car with the same engine struggles to clear 42mpg in the US.

The difference is in fuel management. As explained to me, for the VW diesel to carry its full rated load requires (typically) 4 pulses of the injector. In the US, a 5th pulse is added automatically and timed to occur AFTER the exhaust valve is open - thus this 5th pulse occurs without any associated power stroke and is added simply to keep that Catalytic Converter hot. And results in a 20 percent fuel penalty at full load - more at lesser loads.

Now is the diesel engine in domestic automobile use THAT big a polluter? In Europe, they feel that burning less fuel through using a diesel cycle is preferable to forced low NOx emissions. The two do follow directly together. But here in the US with the fuel industry a MAJOR Lobbyist of Congress, its easy to see how a "fuel rich" environmental solution might be the solution du jour.

The same regulatory thinking brought you Alcohol in your gas, Ethanol Subsidy, E10 and beyond, and does not save gasoline. Rather ethanol REDUCES miles per gallon - and you have to buy MORE fuel/ethanol mix to make up the difference. But ethanol is an oxygenator to fuel (why its used in racing) and results in cleaner burning.

Sigh. Maybe I SHOULD stick with the horse?

Joe K

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hmmm ... New Fuel? ... New Fuel Lobbyist? ... New Fuel Decisions? ... New Fuel Laws?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from Will Rogers, (1879 - 1935), about 80 years ago, way back in Model A days:

"Last year we said ... "Things can't go on like this," ... and they didn't, they got worse!"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmmmm ....

[Tom Wesenberg]

The only drawback to horses is they burn fuel, even when you don't use them.
I'd love to go back to horses.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

The only drawback to horses is they burn fuel, even when you don't use them.
I'd love to go back to horses.

except when they get a "flat tire" you gotta go buy a whole new one