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Old 10-11-2020, 06:08 PM   #1
billybronco1
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Angry Found Very Concerning Issue

So this 36 I just bought has a rebuilt engine with about 3K miles on it, told it has aluminum heads. Today I started it up and noticed when it was cool lots of black water or moisture coming out of the exhaust, once it warmed up it seems to clear up and go away. I called the previous owner, and asked him about, he said it always did that for the last 7 years and never had to add coolant. I decided to pull the spark plug to get the number off it and what do I see? Anti freeze sitting on the valves. Seems its the middle two cylinders on the drivers side only.

What do you think I should do?
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Old 10-11-2020, 06:16 PM   #2
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Probably a head gasket. Let's hope...
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Old 10-11-2020, 06:17 PM   #3
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Um, fire up the Way Back machine. Sorry.
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Old 10-11-2020, 06:18 PM   #4
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Take all the pics you can. Tell previous owner & then pull heads to see what you have. If there’s no issues all your out us time & head gaskets.
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Old 10-11-2020, 06:34 PM   #5
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

The engine starts right up, runs smooth and no steam from the exhaust. Seems to have plenty of power. But yes I agree the heads need to come off. I would not be be able to sleep at night knowing coolant is sitting in the cylinder all winter. First I need to finish the exhaust then move on to this. As far as pictures I can't expect much from the previous owner, I bought as is where is and signed the bill of sale. He seemed to be a straight shooter, but I'll see what he has to say. Very disappointing, I paid too much for the car already I thought the last thing I was going to have to deal with is the rebuilt engine.
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Old 10-11-2020, 06:45 PM   #6
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Retorque all the cylinder head nuts when cold. Maybe some are a bit loose and just need a nip up. Then run and drive it and see what happens. Retorque them twice after engine cools. Regards, Kevin.
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Old 10-11-2020, 06:49 PM   #7
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Great suggestion Kevin.
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Old 10-11-2020, 06:51 PM   #8
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

I was thinking of that I'm glad you suggested it. What should I torque the nuts to on the aluminum heads?
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Old 10-11-2020, 06:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

45 lb ft. Make sure there are hard washers under the nuts.
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Old 10-11-2020, 07:15 PM   #10
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So I figured I would use a breaker bar seeing I don't have a torque wrench to see if I could tighten a nut or two, (until I get the torque wrench) no way they are super tight. So then I took one of the nuts off to see if there was a flat washer under it, nope.
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Old 10-11-2020, 07:57 PM   #11
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybronco1 View Post
So I figured I would use a breaker bar seeing I don't have a torque wrench to see if I could tighten a nut or two, (until I get the torque wrench) no way they are super tight. So then I took one of the nuts off to see if there was a flat washer under it, nope.

You need to back each nut off then bring it back up with the torque wrench, you can get another 1/4 turn out of them sometimes.


Are you sure its not condensation coming out the exhaust?
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Old 10-11-2020, 08:10 PM   #12
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There seemed to be a lot of water (black sooty water) coming out of the exhaust when it first started it and I revved it up. But it did not appear to be anti freeze. But never the less there should not be anti freeze in the spark plug hole sitting on the valves.

Also why don't I have flat washers under the head nuts. Is this must have or just a good idea?
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Old 10-11-2020, 08:17 PM   #13
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

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Originally Posted by billybronco1 View Post
Also why don't I have flat washers under the head nuts. Is this must have or just a good idea?
Because the heads are aluminum and the nuts will not turn well on them, giving you a poor torque reading.

Last edited by JSeery; 10-11-2020 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 10-11-2020, 08:31 PM   #14
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Because the heads are aluminum and the nuts will not turn well on ithem, giving you a poor torque reading.
So I don't understand, should I have or not have washers under the nuts with the aluminum heads? I guess I better do a magnet check too, make sure they are aluminum.
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Old 10-11-2020, 08:45 PM   #15
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Old 10-11-2020, 08:54 PM   #16
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Okay got it. I was looking on the internet for parts and found you can buy a set of 21 washers for $11 or some others for .99 each what could be the difference and which ones should I get? I also assume all surfaces should be shiny clean like the bottom of the nuts and mating head hole.
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Old 10-11-2020, 08:59 PM   #17
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Get onto 3rd gen automotive, he or one of the other great suppliers on the barn here will help .
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Old 10-11-2020, 09:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

The torque chart posted is for 24 stud engines, if you engine is original it would be 21 stud.
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Old 10-11-2020, 09:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Not sure why folk say back off the head nuts to re torque . I never have and never will ,to my way of thinking it unsettles any sealing done on the threads . A properly lubed nut or stud only need to be torqued down, maybe 3 times or More until the nut/stud settles . Only up if the head is coming off.

Last edited by my4dv8; 10-11-2020 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 10-11-2020, 09:54 PM   #20
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

I had a '37 that spit a bit (tablesoon or so) of water upon a cold start every time during the 27-years I owned it. I drove that car 2- to 3,000 every year with dozens of starts each year and the engine was was still running well when I sold it. Figured the water was just condensation from combustion with a little exhaust carbon mixed in.
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Old 10-11-2020, 10:52 PM   #21
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

If you don't have a torque wrench, BUY ONE. They're not that expensive, and anyone who is into cars (old or new) should have one.
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Old 10-12-2020, 12:34 AM   #22
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybronco1 View Post
There seemed to be a lot of water (black sooty water) coming out of the exhaust when it first started it and I revved it up. But it did not appear to be anti freeze. But never the less there should not be anti freeze in the spark plug hole sitting on the valves.

Also why don't I have flat washers under the head nuts. Is this must have or just a good idea?
Sound like the condensation coming out the exhaust, I get that when I start my '53.

You need hardened washers under the nuts not just flat washer they MUST be hardened to function correctly.
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:47 AM   #23
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Your 1936 Ford when new was fitted with aluminium cylinder heads (not painted) and had rather thick steel washers under the head nuts. During the life of many cars the aluminium heads gave trouble and were replaced by cast iron heads (painted) which were more durable. The cast iron heads did not require the washers under the nuts. Torque specs for aluminium heads and cast iron heads are different. Regards, Kevin.
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Old 10-12-2020, 06:29 AM   #24
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I had a lot more that a tablespoon and the condensation could be related to the hot air heater and all its tubes collecting water. Its probably not related to the coolant in the spark plug hole. But then again as the coolant burns off it could make steam and as it goes down the exhaust pipe turns back to water. I fell upon that by accident by pulling a plug to get the number off it. It just so happen the one plug I pulled was the one with the coolant in it. So what ever the case the heads need to come off. The one nut I took off did not come off easy all the way to the end.

This is not the original engine and I'm just going by what the original owner told me. I put a magnet on the heads this morning and it sticks, so they can not be aluminum. I counted 21 studs.
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Old 10-12-2020, 06:48 AM   #25
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Do it the right way - don’t use the breaker bar; buy or rent a torque wrench and tighten each bolt in the recommended sequence.
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Old 10-12-2020, 06:53 AM   #26
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Does someone have a pic of the cast iron 21 head bolt sequence and the required torque?
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Old 10-12-2020, 07:04 AM   #27
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No worries I found the info on Van Pelts web site. I assume this is an 85hp right? Says 50-60 ft lbs for cast iron heads
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Old 10-12-2020, 07:21 AM   #28
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Since the torquing process actually stretches the bolt, some like to initially torque (in the correct sequence) to just under the specifications, and then follow with a second torque after a brief interval to full spec so as to ensure a more accurate tightening.
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Old 10-12-2020, 12:21 PM   #29
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Does someone have a pic of the cast iron 21 head bolt sequence and the required torque?
Lanny also added it to post #15.
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Old 10-12-2020, 12:50 PM   #30
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Do it the right way - don’t use the breaker bar; buy or rent a torque wrench and tighten each bolt in the recommended sequence.
billy, sometimes you can borrow tools from auto parts stores. Not sure the practice in the Boston area and not sure if torque wrenches are included, but might be worth the trouble to inquire while you save up for one of your own.

Agee, you need to own one....1/2 inch and calibrated in foot/pounds....most are but I managed to find one that only measured in Newton....not very useful to me
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:03 PM   #31
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Thanks, I have one on it way from Amazon now, once I get my exhaust all back together I will move on to this issue.
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:36 PM   #32
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You guys probably will cringe at this but, I tried to free a few of the nuts and I'm afraid I will break a stud. One stud above the hole with the anti freeze in it is rusty and does not feel good when I try to loosen it with the breaker bar. My gut is the stud is leaking. Is every one against trying an engine block sealer? The leak seems to be very minor and probably only when its cold. I do need to do some more experiments.
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:52 PM   #33
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You said >"So this 36 I just bought has a rebuilt engine with about 3K miles on it." And you said > "I started it up and noticed when it was cool lots of black water or moisture coming out of the exhaust, once it warmed up it seems to clear up and go away."

Given what you said, I wouldn't hesitate to try a block sealer....
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:52 PM   #34
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The RTV (or other silicone-based sealer) will only work on clean / dry surfaces; apply liberal amounts of PB blast and let soak. If needed, get some modeling wax or clay to create a small dam / reservoir around the frozen stud to ensure a good soak. Do not force under any circumstances.
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Old 10-12-2020, 02:02 PM   #35
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Old 10-12-2020, 02:23 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybronco1 View Post
You guys probably will cringe at this but, I tried to free a few of the nuts and I'm afraid I will break a stud. One stud above the hole with the anti freeze in it is rusty and does not feel good when I try to loosen it with the breaker bar. My gut is the stud is leaking. Is every one against trying an engine block sealer? The leak seems to be very minor and probably only when its cold. I do need to do some more experiments.
I would try a sealer, I've had good luck with them in the past.
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Old 10-12-2020, 02:28 PM   #37
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I watched the video I'm not to sure about the fiber aspect of this product. I certainty need to consider the old radiator I don't want to clog up. I do run the car without a thermostat like the previous owner, so clogging that will not be an issue.
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Old 10-12-2020, 02:30 PM   #38
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I would try a sealer, I've had good luck with them in the past.
Jseery, what products have you used with success? Was it a permanent fix?
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Old 10-12-2020, 02:34 PM   #39
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I have used this product with great success > https://www.kseal.com/products/k-seal
No draining or flushing of cooling system with this product - will mix with anti freeze....

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Old 10-12-2020, 02:43 PM   #40
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Jseery, what products have you used with success? Was it a permanent fix?
Don't remember at the moment, but one I used in a HP 427 big block required you to remove the antifreeze and flush it out a little with straight water. Then fill it up with water (no antifreeze) and the sealant and run it for some specified period of time. Then drain it and refill it with an antifreeze mixture. The engine had a leaking head gasket and it fixed the problem, to my surprise. Not something I would normally suggest on a HP engine, but it worked in a pinch. On a stock flathead I don't see any issue with trying a sealant. It is my understanding the the sealants only work on very small openings and are not an issue on radiator or heater cores or thermostats, etc.

Water Glass is an old flathead standby.
"Liquid glass" (sodium silicate) is added to the system through the radiator, and allowed to circulate. Sodium silicate is suspended in the coolant until it reaches the cylinder head. At 100–105°C (212-221°F), sodium silicate loses water molecules to form a glass seal with a remelt temperature above 810°C (1,490°F)

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Old 10-12-2020, 04:48 PM   #41
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I have used this product with great success > https://www.kseal.com/products/k-seal
No draining or flushing of cooling system with this product - will mix with anti freeze....

Petehoovie, did you use this stuff on flatheads with success? Do you think with my scenario its worth a try?
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Old 10-12-2020, 05:09 PM   #42
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Petehoovie, did you use this stuff on flatheads with success? Do you think with my scenario its worth a try?

Yes. I used it for a leaking head gasket in my 21 stud '34 engine. It worked like a champ. Give it a shot. It's a little spendy but you get what you pay for....
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Old 10-12-2020, 05:12 PM   #43
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Sounds good, I read about and I think its worth a try. I'm try to figure on do I need an 8 or 16 ounce bottle. I can't seem to find the flathead coolant capacity online.
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Old 10-12-2020, 05:16 PM   #44
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Old 10-12-2020, 05:25 PM   #45
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Old 10-12-2020, 05:28 PM   #46
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My owners manual states a cooling system capacity of 22 quarts ....
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Old 10-12-2020, 06:21 PM   #47
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Decisions - decisions what to buy, K-seal regular all purpose, K-seal HD, K-seal Ultimate? Probably should spend the big bucks and get the ultimate!
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Old 10-12-2020, 06:55 PM   #48
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K-Seal ULTIMATE K3501-Just Pour & Go – No Need for Expensive Head Gasket Repairs


Guaranteed to make a repair or your money back

K-Seal ULTIMATE K3501 Head Gasket Repair is the simple, permanent fix for blown head gaskets, cracked heads and blocks, and porous engine blocks. Guaranteed repair for the life of your engine, or your money back!
Our unique formula works with all water-cooled engines – there’s no need to drain or flush your cooling system, and it doesn’t matter what kind of antifreeze or coolant you’ve used previously. Simply shake the bottle, pour K-Seal ULTIMATE into your cooling system, and you’re back on the road.
Just one bottle of K-Seal ULTIMATE is enough to fix blown head gaskets and cracked heads in cars, SUVs and small trucks. For larger engines, simply use two bottles.
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Old 10-12-2020, 11:02 PM   #49
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Talking Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Do your friends accuse you of worry/indecision too often? I'll add one more choice,
I like AlumaSeal powder.

I'm betting with a proper re-torque and a dash of stop leak you'll get things in order.

Last edited by J Franklin; 10-12-2020 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 10-13-2020, 12:51 AM   #50
Rudolph
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

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Originally Posted by my4dv8 View Post
Not sure why folk say back off the head nuts to re torque . I never have and never will ,to my way of thinking it unsettles any sealing done on the threads . A properly lubed nut or stud only need to be torqued down, maybe 3 times or More until the nut/stud settles . Only up if the head is coming off.

Try it next time with a pen mark on the stud and the nut you will be supersized, even the most well lubed nut will sometimes not turn, you need to overcome that little bit of friction that makes the wrench click.


most manuals say re tighten a cople times then after a few hundred kms back each one off and re torque
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Old 10-13-2020, 08:20 AM   #51
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

If antifreeze is getting into the cylinders, you can often smell it at the exhaust. That would depend upon the amount leaking, of course, and the reliability of your sniffer!
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Old 10-13-2020, 11:28 AM   #52
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The more I think of this I really would like to fix this leak right instead out of a can. I'm just afraid if I pull or try to pull the heads I might open up a can of worms. If I break a stud or something, I'm really mixed on what to do. A friend of mine has pulled many a heads and said he would help me so maybe that is the way to go. Does anyone have a good reading or youtube on all the tricks of taking the heads of a 21 stud?
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Old 10-13-2020, 12:14 PM   #53
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Lot of work with studs, seems much easier to at least try a sealer first. Do you realize some builder put in a sealant in new rebuilds?
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Old 10-13-2020, 12:19 PM   #54
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No I did not know that. I Have been trying to loosen some nuts a tad, will re torque everything once I get my torque wrench, most are moving okay, a few stubborn ones. Guess I will have to sleep on the idea what to do, I did order some K-seal ultimate
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Old 10-13-2020, 01:13 PM   #55
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

I agree with "JSeery"; avoid removing the heads and fooling around with the studs if at all possible. Getting the nuts off without breaking any studs is just the beginning of your problems. You can have every nut off and in a can 50 feet from the car and the heads usually still won't move. If you have the time, browse around the web for pictures of fixtures that were made for this very purpose. Most of them resemble medieval torture devices and can cause almost as much pain. That will give you a taste of what you're in for.

Last edited by tubman; 10-13-2020 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 10-13-2020, 02:36 PM   #56
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

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Originally Posted by billybronco1 View Post
No I did not know that. I Have been trying to loosen some nuts a tad, will re torque everything once I get my torque wrench, most are moving okay, a few stubborn ones. Guess I will have to sleep on the idea what to do, I did order some K-seal ultimate
Don’t loosen them all at once, just one at a time with the bar then bring it back up with the toque wrench in the right pattern,
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Old 10-13-2020, 06:19 PM   #57
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

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Originally Posted by billybronco1 View Post
No I did not know that. I Have been trying to loosen some nuts a tad, will re torque everything once I get my torque wrench, most are moving okay, a few stubborn ones. Guess I will have to sleep on the idea what to do, I did order some K-seal ultimate
It only takes one stud to break and your looking at alot of time , money and labor ! Remove engine , remove as much as you can , send , take to machine shop , have the stud repaired and then see what the problem is = hundreds if not a thousand dollars . Use the bottle fix first .
Im using the $1000 amount as im pretty sure you dont have a engine hoist , engine stand , maybe a truch to transport to a qualified FLAT HEAD MACHINE SHOP . Dont make a beautiful car into a project that grows too big and gets put off and eventually sold . Use it , drive it , enjoy it . Life is getting shorter for all of us .
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Old 10-13-2020, 06:36 PM   #58
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

^^^^x2
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Old 10-13-2020, 07:09 PM   #59
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Condensation is normal, our v8 does it also. If you are running rich or the exhaust system is old it tends to be stained black. Even my BMW has condensation at the exhaust on cold start ups.

If you really had a bad leak, I think you would see it leak all the time at the exhaust fittings, and it would be green on a paper towel. I would probably remove the exhaust manifold and scope the exhaust port for signs of leaks before I removed the heads. Removing the heads would be my last resort. Once you take the head off you are going to have to scrape the head surface risking getting trash all down in the piston rings, etc. Thus the whole can of worms thing.

JB
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Old 10-18-2020, 09:42 AM   #60
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Have not tried the K-seal yet still screwing around with the exhaust. I did start the car and warmed it up, then pulled the plug that showed antifreeze. Was wondering if it would stop when the engine was hot, the answer was no and when I pulled the muffler off the exhaust pipe dripped antifreeze - not good.
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Old 10-18-2020, 01:20 PM   #61
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Try the sealer first......follow directions to a tee.....Tubman, JSeery and others here are masters at this flathead game. You have nothing to lose and hopefully everything to gain.
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Old 10-18-2020, 02:17 PM   #62
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Default Re: Found Very Concerning Issue

Now is a good time to try the sealer, will give you a before and after. You now have the before, so just need the after.
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