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10-11-2020, 06:08 PM | #1 |
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Found Very Concerning Issue
So this 36 I just bought has a rebuilt engine with about 3K miles on it, told it has aluminum heads. Today I started it up and noticed when it was cool lots of black water or moisture coming out of the exhaust, once it warmed up it seems to clear up and go away. I called the previous owner, and asked him about, he said it always did that for the last 7 years and never had to add coolant. I decided to pull the spark plug to get the number off it and what do I see? Anti freeze sitting on the valves. Seems its the middle two cylinders on the drivers side only.
What do you think I should do? |
10-11-2020, 06:16 PM | #2 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Probably a head gasket. Let's hope...
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10-11-2020, 06:17 PM | #3 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Um, fire up the Way Back machine. Sorry.
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10-11-2020, 06:18 PM | #4 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Take all the pics you can. Tell previous owner & then pull heads to see what you have. If there’s no issues all your out us time & head gaskets.
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10-11-2020, 06:34 PM | #5 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
The engine starts right up, runs smooth and no steam from the exhaust. Seems to have plenty of power. But yes I agree the heads need to come off. I would not be be able to sleep at night knowing coolant is sitting in the cylinder all winter. First I need to finish the exhaust then move on to this. As far as pictures I can't expect much from the previous owner, I bought as is where is and signed the bill of sale. He seemed to be a straight shooter, but I'll see what he has to say. Very disappointing, I paid too much for the car already I thought the last thing I was going to have to deal with is the rebuilt engine.
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10-11-2020, 06:45 PM | #6 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
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10-11-2020, 06:49 PM | #7 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Great suggestion Kevin.
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10-11-2020, 06:51 PM | #8 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
I was thinking of that I'm glad you suggested it. What should I torque the nuts to on the aluminum heads?
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10-11-2020, 06:56 PM | #9 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
45 lb ft. Make sure there are hard washers under the nuts.
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10-11-2020, 07:15 PM | #10 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
So I figured I would use a breaker bar seeing I don't have a torque wrench to see if I could tighten a nut or two, (until I get the torque wrench) no way they are super tight. So then I took one of the nuts off to see if there was a flat washer under it, nope.
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10-11-2020, 07:57 PM | #11 | |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Quote:
You need to back each nut off then bring it back up with the torque wrench, you can get another 1/4 turn out of them sometimes. Are you sure its not condensation coming out the exhaust? |
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10-11-2020, 08:10 PM | #12 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
There seemed to be a lot of water (black sooty water) coming out of the exhaust when it first started it and I revved it up. But it did not appear to be anti freeze. But never the less there should not be anti freeze in the spark plug hole sitting on the valves.
Also why don't I have flat washers under the head nuts. Is this must have or just a good idea? |
10-11-2020, 08:17 PM | #13 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Because the heads are aluminum and the nuts will not turn well on them, giving you a poor torque reading.
Last edited by JSeery; 10-11-2020 at 09:04 PM. |
10-11-2020, 08:31 PM | #14 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
So I don't understand, should I have or not have washers under the nuts with the aluminum heads? I guess I better do a magnet check too, make sure they are aluminum.
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10-11-2020, 08:45 PM | #15 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Delete
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10-11-2020, 08:54 PM | #16 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Okay got it. I was looking on the internet for parts and found you can buy a set of 21 washers for $11 or some others for .99 each what could be the difference and which ones should I get? I also assume all surfaces should be shiny clean like the bottom of the nuts and mating head hole.
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10-11-2020, 08:59 PM | #17 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Get onto 3rd gen automotive, he or one of the other great suppliers on the barn here will help .
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10-11-2020, 09:07 PM | #18 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
The torque chart posted is for 24 stud engines, if you engine is original it would be 21 stud.
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10-11-2020, 09:27 PM | #19 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Not sure why folk say back off the head nuts to re torque . I never have and never will ,to my way of thinking it unsettles any sealing done on the threads . A properly lubed nut or stud only need to be torqued down, maybe 3 times or More until the nut/stud settles . Only up if the head is coming off.
Last edited by my4dv8; 10-11-2020 at 09:36 PM. |
10-11-2020, 09:54 PM | #20 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
I had a '37 that spit a bit (tablesoon or so) of water upon a cold start every time during the 27-years I owned it. I drove that car 2- to 3,000 every year with dozens of starts each year and the engine was was still running well when I sold it. Figured the water was just condensation from combustion with a little exhaust carbon mixed in.
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10-11-2020, 10:52 PM | #21 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
If you don't have a torque wrench, BUY ONE. They're not that expensive, and anyone who is into cars (old or new) should have one.
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10-12-2020, 12:34 AM | #22 | |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Quote:
You need hardened washers under the nuts not just flat washer they MUST be hardened to function correctly.
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10-12-2020, 01:47 AM | #23 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Your 1936 Ford when new was fitted with aluminium cylinder heads (not painted) and had rather thick steel washers under the head nuts. During the life of many cars the aluminium heads gave trouble and were replaced by cast iron heads (painted) which were more durable. The cast iron heads did not require the washers under the nuts. Torque specs for aluminium heads and cast iron heads are different. Regards, Kevin.
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10-12-2020, 06:29 AM | #24 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
I had a lot more that a tablespoon and the condensation could be related to the hot air heater and all its tubes collecting water. Its probably not related to the coolant in the spark plug hole. But then again as the coolant burns off it could make steam and as it goes down the exhaust pipe turns back to water. I fell upon that by accident by pulling a plug to get the number off it. It just so happen the one plug I pulled was the one with the coolant in it. So what ever the case the heads need to come off. The one nut I took off did not come off easy all the way to the end.
This is not the original engine and I'm just going by what the original owner told me. I put a magnet on the heads this morning and it sticks, so they can not be aluminum. I counted 21 studs. |
10-12-2020, 06:48 AM | #25 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Do it the right way - don’t use the breaker bar; buy or rent a torque wrench and tighten each bolt in the recommended sequence.
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10-12-2020, 06:53 AM | #26 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
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10-12-2020, 07:04 AM | #27 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
No worries I found the info on Van Pelts web site. I assume this is an 85hp right? Says 50-60 ft lbs for cast iron heads
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10-12-2020, 07:21 AM | #28 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Since the torquing process actually stretches the bolt, some like to initially torque (in the correct sequence) to just under the specifications, and then follow with a second torque after a brief interval to full spec so as to ensure a more accurate tightening.
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10-12-2020, 12:21 PM | #29 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
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10-12-2020, 12:50 PM | #30 | |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Quote:
Agee, you need to own one....1/2 inch and calibrated in foot/pounds....most are but I managed to find one that only measured in Newton....not very useful to me |
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10-12-2020, 01:03 PM | #31 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Thanks, I have one on it way from Amazon now, once I get my exhaust all back together I will move on to this issue.
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10-12-2020, 01:36 PM | #32 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
You guys probably will cringe at this but, I tried to free a few of the nuts and I'm afraid I will break a stud. One stud above the hole with the anti freeze in it is rusty and does not feel good when I try to loosen it with the breaker bar. My gut is the stud is leaking. Is every one against trying an engine block sealer? The leak seems to be very minor and probably only when its cold. I do need to do some more experiments.
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10-12-2020, 01:52 PM | #33 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
You said >"So this 36 I just bought has a rebuilt engine with about 3K miles on it." And you said > "I started it up and noticed when it was cool lots of black water or moisture coming out of the exhaust, once it warmed up it seems to clear up and go away."
Given what you said, I wouldn't hesitate to try a block sealer....
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10-12-2020, 01:52 PM | #34 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
The RTV (or other silicone-based sealer) will only work on clean / dry surfaces; apply liberal amounts of PB blast and let soak. If needed, get some modeling wax or clay to create a small dam / reservoir around the frozen stud to ensure a good soak. Do not force under any circumstances.
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10-12-2020, 02:02 PM | #35 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Delete
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My Wife Says That I Never Listen to Her, I Think That's What She Said If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. But if daddy ain't happy...RUN Last edited by Lanny; 10-13-2020 at 11:54 AM. |
10-12-2020, 02:23 PM | #36 | |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Quote:
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10-12-2020, 02:28 PM | #37 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
I watched the video I'm not to sure about the fiber aspect of this product. I certainty need to consider the old radiator I don't want to clog up. I do run the car without a thermostat like the previous owner, so clogging that will not be an issue.
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10-12-2020, 02:30 PM | #38 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
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10-12-2020, 02:34 PM | #39 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
I have used this product with great success > https://www.kseal.com/products/k-seal
No draining or flushing of cooling system with this product - will mix with anti freeze....
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The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... "Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!" "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0 Last edited by petehoovie; 10-12-2020 at 02:46 PM. |
10-12-2020, 02:43 PM | #40 | |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Quote:
Water Glass is an old flathead standby. "Liquid glass" (sodium silicate) is added to the system through the radiator, and allowed to circulate. Sodium silicate is suspended in the coolant until it reaches the cylinder head. At 100–105°C (212-221°F), sodium silicate loses water molecules to form a glass seal with a remelt temperature above 810°C (1,490°F) Last edited by JSeery; 10-12-2020 at 02:48 PM. |
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10-12-2020, 04:48 PM | #41 | |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
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10-12-2020, 05:09 PM | #42 | |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Quote:
Yes. I used it for a leaking head gasket in my 21 stud '34 engine. It worked like a champ. Give it a shot. It's a little spendy but you get what you pay for....
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The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... "Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!" "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0 |
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10-12-2020, 05:12 PM | #43 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Sounds good, I read about and I think its worth a try. I'm try to figure on do I need an 8 or 16 ounce bottle. I can't seem to find the flathead coolant capacity online.
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10-12-2020, 05:16 PM | #44 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Delete
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My Wife Says That I Never Listen to Her, I Think That's What She Said If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. But if daddy ain't happy...RUN Last edited by Lanny; 10-13-2020 at 11:54 AM. |
10-12-2020, 05:25 PM | #45 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Delete
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My Wife Says That I Never Listen to Her, I Think That's What She Said If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. But if daddy ain't happy...RUN Last edited by Lanny; 10-13-2020 at 11:54 AM. |
10-12-2020, 05:28 PM | #46 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
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The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... "Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!" "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0 Last edited by petehoovie; 10-12-2020 at 05:35 PM. |
10-12-2020, 06:21 PM | #47 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Decisions - decisions what to buy, K-seal regular all purpose, K-seal HD, K-seal Ultimate? Probably should spend the big bucks and get the ultimate!
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10-12-2020, 06:55 PM | #48 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
K-Seal ULTIMATE K3501-Just Pour & Go – No Need for Expensive Head Gasket Repairs Guaranteed to make a repair or your money back K-Seal ULTIMATE K3501 Head Gasket Repair is the simple, permanent fix for blown head gaskets, cracked heads and blocks, and porous engine blocks. Guaranteed repair for the life of your engine, or your money back! Our unique formula works with all water-cooled engines – there’s no need to drain or flush your cooling system, and it doesn’t matter what kind of antifreeze or coolant you’ve used previously. Simply shake the bottle, pour K-Seal ULTIMATE into your cooling system, and you’re back on the road. Just one bottle of K-Seal ULTIMATE is enough to fix blown head gaskets and cracked heads in cars, SUVs and small trucks. For larger engines, simply use two bottles.
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The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... "Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!" "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0 |
10-12-2020, 11:02 PM | #49 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Do your friends accuse you of worry/indecision too often? I'll add one more choice,
I like AlumaSeal powder. I'm betting with a proper re-torque and a dash of stop leak you'll get things in order. Last edited by J Franklin; 10-12-2020 at 11:11 PM. |
10-13-2020, 12:51 AM | #50 | |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Quote:
Try it next time with a pen mark on the stud and the nut you will be supersized, even the most well lubed nut will sometimes not turn, you need to overcome that little bit of friction that makes the wrench click. most manuals say re tighten a cople times then after a few hundred kms back each one off and re torque |
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10-13-2020, 08:20 AM | #51 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
If antifreeze is getting into the cylinders, you can often smell it at the exhaust. That would depend upon the amount leaking, of course, and the reliability of your sniffer!
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10-13-2020, 11:28 AM | #52 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
The more I think of this I really would like to fix this leak right instead out of a can. I'm just afraid if I pull or try to pull the heads I might open up a can of worms. If I break a stud or something, I'm really mixed on what to do. A friend of mine has pulled many a heads and said he would help me so maybe that is the way to go. Does anyone have a good reading or youtube on all the tricks of taking the heads of a 21 stud?
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10-13-2020, 12:14 PM | #53 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Lot of work with studs, seems much easier to at least try a sealer first. Do you realize some builder put in a sealant in new rebuilds?
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10-13-2020, 12:19 PM | #54 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
No I did not know that. I Have been trying to loosen some nuts a tad, will re torque everything once I get my torque wrench, most are moving okay, a few stubborn ones. Guess I will have to sleep on the idea what to do, I did order some K-seal ultimate
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10-13-2020, 01:13 PM | #55 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
I agree with "JSeery"; avoid removing the heads and fooling around with the studs if at all possible. Getting the nuts off without breaking any studs is just the beginning of your problems. You can have every nut off and in a can 50 feet from the car and the heads usually still won't move. If you have the time, browse around the web for pictures of fixtures that were made for this very purpose. Most of them resemble medieval torture devices and can cause almost as much pain. That will give you a taste of what you're in for.
Last edited by tubman; 10-13-2020 at 01:27 PM. |
10-13-2020, 02:36 PM | #56 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Don’t loosen them all at once, just one at a time with the bar then bring it back up with the toque wrench in the right pattern,
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10-13-2020, 06:19 PM | #57 | |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Quote:
Im using the $1000 amount as im pretty sure you dont have a engine hoist , engine stand , maybe a truch to transport to a qualified FLAT HEAD MACHINE SHOP . Dont make a beautiful car into a project that grows too big and gets put off and eventually sold . Use it , drive it , enjoy it . Life is getting shorter for all of us . |
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10-13-2020, 06:36 PM | #58 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
^^^^x2
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10-13-2020, 07:09 PM | #59 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Condensation is normal, our v8 does it also. If you are running rich or the exhaust system is old it tends to be stained black. Even my BMW has condensation at the exhaust on cold start ups.
If you really had a bad leak, I think you would see it leak all the time at the exhaust fittings, and it would be green on a paper towel. I would probably remove the exhaust manifold and scope the exhaust port for signs of leaks before I removed the heads. Removing the heads would be my last resort. Once you take the head off you are going to have to scrape the head surface risking getting trash all down in the piston rings, etc. Thus the whole can of worms thing. JB |
10-18-2020, 09:42 AM | #60 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Have not tried the K-seal yet still screwing around with the exhaust. I did start the car and warmed it up, then pulled the plug that showed antifreeze. Was wondering if it would stop when the engine was hot, the answer was no and when I pulled the muffler off the exhaust pipe dripped antifreeze - not good.
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10-18-2020, 01:20 PM | #61 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Try the sealer first......follow directions to a tee.....Tubman, JSeery and others here are masters at this flathead game. You have nothing to lose and hopefully everything to gain.
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10-18-2020, 02:17 PM | #62 |
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Re: Found Very Concerning Issue
Now is a good time to try the sealer, will give you a before and after. You now have the before, so just need the after.
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