The Ford Barn

B0B · 01-08-2011, 08:45 PM

Just working on the 29 Model A today and found the right front spindle assembly will slide up and down about 1/16th inch!

The King pin seems ok as far as the fit the spindle just has this vertical movement .. IS this OK ? There was no vertical play there the last time I checked and I am wondering if the THRUST BEARING may be failing ? I read about that recently somewhere and I searched the forum but could find nothing on it ? As I recall there was a mention of using a replacement thrust bearing from a bearing supply company that is better than the ones sold in the catalogs and they even posted a part number ...Anyone know about this ? Sure wish I had a better memory... I have to many "Senior moments"

B0B in Michigan

Aerocraft · 01-08-2011, 08:48 PM

Bob: It is my opinion that it is worth a serious inspection to find out what has failed. Shouldn't take too long to take it apart and find the problem. Gar Williams

Jim Parker Toronto · 01-08-2011, 11:02 PM

Yes, there should be no freeplay, in fact, there should some drag on the bearing. Wash the bearing out well, and inspect it good for any damage. There are shims available from suppliers that will take up the slack. Just done mine, used 2 shims on one side, and 3 on the other. The reproduction bearings are thinner, so you will need shims anyway.

john in illinois · 01-09-2011, 08:25 AM

Bob,here is an old post about this.

Glenn
In my experience, I found the bearings not the same type on different kits to repair front spindles- Example--- Look for a roller bearing, you need two, left and right, don't use the ball bearing ( A-3123 ), use Timken T83. Reason is---- listen up please. The roller bearing supports the weight of whole front end of the car, believe it or not, so you want the best. The ball bearing as probably supplied in a kit is a bad idea, and over time will fail. Ole Henry believed in roller bearings, why not us ? I never put a front axle together without a Timken T83 bearing. A roller bearing will even do well even if it runs dry, but thats not the issue here. Experience on my part, I too want the best. Trust me. Good luck, but you should not have any trouble getting a Timken T 83, O.K. ? Remember you need two ( 2 ).
Rich
in
Rennerville
.

James Rogers · 01-09-2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B0B

Just working on the 29 Model A today and found the right front spindle assembly will slide up and down about 1/16th inch!

The King pin seems ok as far as the fit the spindle just has this vertical movement .. IS this OK ? There was no vertical play there the last time I checked and I am wondering if the THRUST BEARING may be failing ? I read about that recently somewhere and I searched the forum but could find nothing on it ? As I recall there was a mention of using a replacement thrust bearing from a bearing supply company that is better than the ones sold in the catalogs and they even posted a part number ...Anyone know about this ? Sure wish I had a better memory... I have to many "Senior moments"

B0B in Michigan

If the car is on stands you will have some movement in the thrusts of the king pins. This is because the spindle only rides on the thrust when the weight is on the wheels. You should not be able to turn the bearing when the wheels are on the ground but, when it is on a jack or stands it will rotate freely. I would measure the gap because 1/16" is a bit excessive. There are washers to make up the gap to the correct distance.

1931 flamingo · 01-09-2011, 09:31 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Is it possible your king-pin locking bolt on that side is loose?
Paul in CT

Great Lakes Greg · 01-09-2011, 10:08 AM

I have found that I too, have just a bit of wiggle up and down. It's coming apart (again) for the shims (A-3107 on the Snyders website). Nice tip above on the Timkin roller bearings instead of the parts house variety. Best to do it right as this stuff is in pretty deep when the car is all together.

Special Coupe Frank · 01-09-2011, 01:50 PM

FWIW, I've never run across a king-pinned front-end that had roller-type thrust bearings... always found ball-type thrusts, and that's going up into medium-duty trucks too...

Not saying the roller version isn't better, but for a light car like a Model A, the ball-type should be sufficient...

McMaster-Carr Industrial Supply also sells shim washers, in a wide variety of diameters and thicknesses (down to 0.002" ?) .

SC Frank

B0B · 01-09-2011, 01:56 PM

Thanks everyone for all the good Info ! The roller bearings info is what I was looking for ! For some reason when I searched for it I got a message "This file is not available " So now that I have the roller bearing info I will get two and just replace them the spindle slides up and down easy so they should come right apart...I am replacing the front fenders right now and have the two front wheels nicely exposed so I may as well dig into this NOW it will be easier with the front fenders off and all
I sure am glad we have a garage with heat I can turn on it was -4 F this morning with about 8 inches of new white stuff the temp is up to 23 F right now but quite comfortable in the heated garage which is attached to our ranch home... A good way to spend Sunday afternoon KEEP WARM! and KEEP EM ROLLING ! B0B in MICHIGAN

criswellnk · 01-09-2011, 02:29 PM

The Timken T-83 (T83) bearing, that is listed above, I thought was an obsolete/out-of-production bearing? Am I mistaken on this point?

Glenn C. · 01-09-2011, 03:04 PM

The spindle axle bosses may be badly worn also, so the information provided by SC Frank may be of great help.

Roger V · 01-10-2011, 12:18 PM

While I agree that the roller bearing is better, it may be the same principle as the forged running board brackets are better than stamped but apparently not necessary. I believe Ford changed from roller bearings for the kingpins to ball bearings in '32 and those were then used for service for the Model A. I have original NOS in the Ford box kingpin bearings with the B prefix to substantiate this.

Jim Parker Toronto · 01-10-2011, 01:52 PM

My ball bearings have lasted 80 years, I think they are original. Cleaned them up and put them back in. I have always found that used original parts are better than most reproduction stuff. At least you know it will fit.....

TEX29 · 01-10-2011, 02:49 PM

Good info on this thread but, I just tried all the bearing suppliers in the D/FW area looking for the T83 bearing mentioned above and they called the mfg. only to find out it's obsolete... anyone know of an old supplier that may have a stash of these taking up shelf space? Sign me up for 2 please, make that 4 of those, I drive my car alot!!!

Tom Wesenberg · 01-10-2011, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEX29

Good info on this thread but, I just tried all the bearing suppliers in the D/FW area looking for the T83 bearing mentioned above and they called the mfg. only to find out it's obsolete... anyone know of an old supplier that may have a stash of these taking up shelf space? Sign me up for 2 please, make that 4 of those, I drive my car alot!!!

Try
Cutter Sales 763-425-8696
8844 Zealand Av N
Brooklyn Park, MN 55445

They could get them the last time I asked. This is a bearing, bushing and seal supply house and Paul is the owner.

wrndln · 01-10-2011, 05:59 PM

Tom,
I just ordered 6 of the thrust roller bearings from Cutter Sales. The fellow, maybe it was Paul, but I thought he said his name was something else,maybe a worker, said he had to order them for California. They are about $12 something each. I ask him if they were obsolete like I saw on one website and he said they weren't. They are made by ACE.
Rusty

Tom Wesenberg · 01-10-2011, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrndln

Tom,
I just ordered 6 of the thrust roller bearings from Cutter Sales. The fellow, maybe it was Paul, but I thought he said his name was something else,maybe a worker, said he had to order them for California. They are about $12 something each. I ask him if they were obsolete like I saw on one website and he said they weren't. They are made by ACE.
Rusty

When you pick them up be sure to tell them that Tom Wesenberg sent you and you want the same discount he gets.

LOL

Great Lakes Greg · 01-10-2011, 06:12 PM

My local (Jackson, MI) timkin dealer had no T83 listing on the computer. Discontinued. Get them while you can!

Kevin in NJ · 01-10-2011, 07:58 PM

FWIW,

I have two A kits that had the Ford script ball bearings.
These were the later Ford orange and blue boxes.

Also the pile of incidental Ford script bearings we have are all ball bearings and the Ford script ball bearings came in the kit for the 36 Ford.

This was brought up a while back. The ball bearing were used for a specific purpose. I think part of it was there are more balls so there is more surface area to handle the loading. Maybe someone will chime in on this.

There is certainly no reason to search out and pay more for the discontinued tapered bearing. Properly lubricated the ball bearing version is likely to last between 200 to 300 years at the rate we use these cars.

01-08-2011, 08:45 PM	#1
B0B Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 82	King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? Just working on the 29 Model A today and found the right front spindle assembly will slide up and down about 1/16th inch! The King pin seems ok as far as the fit the spindle just has this vertical movement .. IS this OK ? There was no vertical play there the last time I checked and I am wondering if the THRUST BEARING may be failing ? I read about that recently somewhere and I searched the forum but could find nothing on it ? As I recall there was a mention of using a replacement thrust bearing from a bearing supply company that is better than the ones sold in the catalogs and they even posted a part number ...Anyone know about this ? Sure wish I had a better memory... I have to many "Senior moments" B0B in Michigan

01-08-2011, 08:48 PM	#2
Aerocraft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Naperville, IL Posts: 1,387	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? Bob: It is my opinion that it is worth a serious inspection to find out what has failed. Shouldn't take too long to take it apart and find the problem. Gar Williams

01-08-2011, 11:02 PM	#3
Jim Parker Toronto Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,289	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? Yes, there should be no freeplay, in fact, there should some drag on the bearing. Wash the bearing out well, and inspect it good for any damage. There are shims available from suppliers that will take up the slack. Just done mine, used 2 shims on one side, and 3 on the other. The reproduction bearings are thinner, so you will need shims anyway.

01-09-2011, 08:25 AM	#4
john in illinois Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Illinois Posts: 2,184	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? Bob,here is an old post about this. Glenn In my experience, I found the bearings not the same type on different kits to repair front spindles- Example--- Look for a roller bearing, you need two, left and right, don't use the ball bearing ( A-3123 ), use Timken T83. Reason is---- listen up please. The roller bearing supports the weight of whole front end of the car, believe it or not, so you want the best. The ball bearing as probably supplied in a kit is a bad idea, and over time will fail. Ole Henry believed in roller bearings, why not us ? I never put a front axle together without a Timken T83 bearing. A roller bearing will even do well even if it runs dry, but thats not the issue here. Experience on my part, I too want the best. Trust me. Good luck, but you should not have any trouble getting a Timken T 83, O.K. ? Remember you need two ( 2 ). Rich in Rennerville .

01-09-2011, 09:31 AM	#6
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Is it possible your king-pin locking bolt on that side is loose? Paul in CT

01-09-2011, 10:08 AM	#7
Great Lakes Greg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,369	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? I have found that I too, have just a bit of wiggle up and down. It's coming apart (again) for the shims (A-3107 on the Snyders website). Nice tip above on the Timkin roller bearings instead of the parts house variety. Best to do it right as this stuff is in pretty deep when the car is all together.

01-09-2011, 01:50 PM	#8
Special Coupe Frank Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Northeast Penna Posts: 2,108	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? FWIW, I've never run across a king-pinned front-end that had roller-type thrust bearings... always found ball-type thrusts, and that's going up into medium-duty trucks too... Not saying the roller version isn't better, but for a light car like a Model A, the ball-type should be sufficient... McMaster-Carr Industrial Supply also sells shim washers, in a wide variety of diameters and thicknesses (down to 0.002" ?) . SC Frank

01-09-2011, 01:56 PM	#9
B0B Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 82	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? Thanks everyone for all the good Info ! The roller bearings info is what I was looking for ! For some reason when I searched for it I got a message "This file is not available " So now that I have the roller bearing info I will get two and just replace them the spindle slides up and down easy so they should come right apart...I am replacing the front fenders right now and have the two front wheels nicely exposed so I may as well dig into this NOW it will be easier with the front fenders off and all I sure am glad we have a garage with heat I can turn on it was -4 F this morning with about 8 inches of new white stuff the temp is up to 23 F right now but quite comfortable in the heated garage which is attached to our ranch home... A good way to spend Sunday afternoon KEEP WARM! and KEEP EM ROLLING ! B0B in MICHIGAN

01-09-2011, 02:29 PM	#10
criswellnk Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Detroit Posts: 288	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? The Timken T-83 (T83) bearing, that is listed above, I thought was an obsolete/out-of-production bearing? Am I mistaken on this point? __________________ *"Son, there are two ways to do this, your way and the right way." Thanks dad.* Looking for a copy or reprint of 1932 A.E.A. Universal Catalog of Genuine Electrical Service Parts

01-09-2011, 03:04 PM	#11
Glenn C. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Didsbury Alberta Posts: 838	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? The spindle axle bosses may be badly worn also, so the information provided by SC Frank may be of great help.

01-10-2011, 12:18 PM	#12
Roger V Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,593	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? While I agree that the roller bearing is better, it may be the same principle as the forged running board brackets are better than stamped but apparently not necessary. I believe Ford changed from roller bearings for the kingpins to ball bearings in '32 and those were then used for service for the Model A. I have original NOS in the Ford box kingpin bearings with the B prefix to substantiate this.

01-10-2011, 01:52 PM	#13
Jim Parker Toronto Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,289	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? My ball bearings have lasted 80 years, I think they are original. Cleaned them up and put them back in. I have always found that used original parts are better than most reproduction stuff. At least you know it will fit.....

01-10-2011, 02:49 PM	#14
TEX29 Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Hoodlum City, Texas Posts: 63	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? Good info on this thread but, I just tried all the bearing suppliers in the D/FW area looking for the T83 bearing mentioned above and they called the mfg. only to find out it's obsolete... anyone know of an old supplier that may have a stash of these taking up shelf space? Sign me up for 2 please, make that 4 of those, I drive my car alot!!!

01-10-2011, 05:59 PM	#16
wrndln Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lakeville, MN Posts: 5,164	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? Tom, I just ordered 6 of the thrust roller bearings from Cutter Sales. The fellow, maybe it was Paul, but I thought he said his name was something else,maybe a worker, said he had to order them for California. They are about $12 something each. I ask him if they were obsolete like I saw on one website and he said they weren't. They are made by ACE. Rusty

01-10-2011, 06:12 PM	#18
Great Lakes Greg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,369	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? My local (Jackson, MI) timkin dealer had no T83 listing on the computer. Discontinued. Get them while you can!

01-10-2011, 07:58 PM	#19
Kevin in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South East NJ Posts: 3,398	Re: King Pin Thrust bearing vertical play ? FWIW, I have two A kits that had the Ford script ball bearings. These were the later Ford orange and blue boxes. Also the pile of incidental Ford script bearings we have are all ball bearings and the Ford script ball bearings came in the kit for the 36 Ford. This was brought up a while back. The ball bearing were used for a specific purpose. I think part of it was there are more balls so there is more surface area to handle the loading. Maybe someone will chime in on this. There is certainly no reason to search out and pay more for the discontinued tapered bearing. Properly lubricated the ball bearing version is likely to last between 200 to 300 years at the rate we use these cars.