Medal Roof

[rfitzpatrick]

Why did Ford take so long to go with a medal roof? He didn't do so all thru the Model A Era, except for the Budd Cab PicUp, late '31. I've read on the Studebaker web site that air turbulence across a flat medal roof caused drumming, and it was found that by curving the top -- this was eliminated. Was the cost the resistance?
Thanks

[Bruce of MN]

I thought it was because rolling metal that wide hadn’t been advanced enough to be flat enough (no ripples.)

[WTSHNN]

Here's some of the excuses I've heard;

-Drumming effect like you mentioned
-Inability to stamp a piece that large
-Fear of passenger compartment being too hot
-Weight
-Cost

But I don't buy any of them. Look at some of the panels used in the commercial line and those excuses are easy to dismiss.

-Tim

[Mister Moose]

I'm going to go with "That's the way we've always done it"

[rotorwrench]

Ford Motor Company learned a lot from Budd about stamping steel. Enough to know that Budd could do some steel items at less cost than Ford could on lower production bodies like the long roofs on the delivery vehicles. It took more presses and more dies to do that type of production. Ford had it's own wood resources at Iron Mountain and the subcontractors continued to use a lot of wood until Ford phased out the need for body sub-contractors. Henry wanted to make a good car that folks could afford so they used a lot of methods that kept the prices of production lower. GM used wood longer than Ford did for body structure. The Dodge brothers and Walter P Chrysler went toward all steel construction before Ford did but their cars were a bit more expensive too.

[Gene F]

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The 38 Packard was a steel body car, and 38 was the last year for the floor shift. With Model-As we have good resources for wood inner structure. Whenever I look at an early car of another make I always consider how I will get whatever wood pieces I need made.

My 1936 Plymouth streetrod, fortunately, had already been fitted with a station wagon roof insert when I got it.

[Oldbluoval]

“With Model-As we have good resources for wood inner structure.”

If you have low production body styles, try finding wood for them. A lot is listed in catalogues but is out of sock. The mfg has unknown production schedule and
, if quoted, is out 12-18 mos…and that not promised.
Sure, coupes/tudors/roadsters may be in stock.
I just ordered the last set of 180A top wood from the only
vendor that had them in stock. The box was dated 12/13…they’d had them in inventory for 8 years!

[Roger V]

From where ever, I recall that Ford did not have big-enough presses to stamp car roofs. I "think" 1937 was the first year they made all-steel car bodies.

[richard crow]

37 was the first year of the one piece hood also

[Bruce of MN]

Originally Posted by WTSHNN

Here's some of the excuses I've heard;

-Drumming effect like you mentioned
-Inability to stamp a piece that large
-Fear of passenger compartment being too hot
-Weight
-Cost

But I don't buy any of them. Look at some of the panels used in the commercial line and those excuses are easy to dismiss.

-Tim

Old Husbands' Tales?

[GeneBob]

I don't think anyone had an all metal roof until around 1936. I had a 1936 Buick that I looked up the history for and it was the first year that the auto makers had the ability to make that large a stamping to make the full roof from metal. You can see the same roof on Buicks, LaSalles, and some other GM cars. Anyway, that was story I found when I had that car. The funny things is; they made an all metal roof but still had wood to support the body for a couple years.

[Oldbluoval]

They could have easily made it in sections and leaded together at the seams.
Manufacturers did that with side panels often. I guess that would run the cost nip as it would have to be a hands on operation

[rotorwrench]

Ford had huge presses at the Rouge but they were used more for the heavy gauge metals like the frames & cross members. The fenders were also pressed there with multiple dies for the different applications. They pressed the whole side of the Tudor Sedans. Coupe and Roadster quarter panels were pressed there but a lot of the stuff was also pressed by Budd in order to keep up with production rates. I could be wrong but I think Ford made all of the fuel tanks in both pressings and welding. These could be shipped to the contractors and assembly plants in batches.

Briggs and Murray pressed the metal skins that formed the bodies that they made for Ford. Briggs tried to add in a higher price for the steel they were using so Ford started furnishing them with steel milled at the Rouge to nip that in the bud.

[CatMan1]

Add to that.....why the wooden floors? I don't have a sedan so is the rear floor wood, too? I've been told that the wooden floors were 'free' because that's what the engines were crated in. Is it possible he had a free or very cheap source for the top material?

[Kevin in NJ]

Ford wanted to do things in the most economical method, but he also was concerned about quality. Keep in mind this was before shifts in manufacturing thought, well before his son got more involved. Henry had a different point of view as to what a customer should get. His son realized a long lived car was not good for profits plus you need to need to change the design frequently.

You can see the manufacturing changes due to cost. Labor, more importantly skilled labor, was a large part of the cost of the car. The A was the big change in the use of precision manufacturing. I know many guys think the A was just a crappy car thrown together. But in reality is was precision built so any worker can just take a part from the pile and bolt it on and it worked.

So lets start with the change from plated parts to stainless. The plating process did not have a bright nickel plate so all plated parts needed a person to buff them 3 times. Stainless could be stamped and buffed by machine once. Way cheaper even though the stainless was a much more expensive material and the dies wore out faster.

Then consider the slant window sedan. Up until then you had the wood body built up from precision cut wood. Yes, they precision cut the wood to minimize the need for fitting on the line. Then they nailed the steel panels onto the wood. It was so costly that Ford was willing to start up a line in May of 31 to change over to the 160 series of bodies. These only had wood in the top because they could not make the top of steel yet. So imagine how much labor money was saved for Ford to make that switch.

Clearly if Ford could have made a fully steel body he would.

It was mentioned that they made the large stampings for the panle trucks. Well they would be different. It is one thing to stamp 'flat' panel and have it nice and another thing to stamp a panel that has a raised bead adding structure.

From a body work stand point a bead line on a panel makes it a much different structure. Take a slight curved but flat (low crowned would be the technical term) piece of metal and it could wierd things flopping all over the place. Stamp a bead into it and suddenly it get stiff.

There may have been other issue they had not solved. It is one thing stamp a shape, but you also have to cut the edges and shape them. So I wonder if there may have been technical challlenges with making the edges for a roof. As I recall they made the Bud cab steel top but it is more of a flat piece with a staight seem front and rear. Been a long time since with had the steel top pickup.

Anyway, some things to consider. I will say some of the above on why they did not make the panels is speculative based on what I was told by people that know a lot more then I about Ford production. Other items like the precision manufacturing is based on verifiable sources.

[rotorwrench]

The frames were too flexible which in turn makes the body flex a lot. To make an all steel roof would require a boxed frame with reinforcements to keep everything from flexing. A roof that could flex without wrinkling the roof panel and creating the associated noises was left in the normal way of building cars at the time and that lasted well into the 30s.

Budd had been stamping out all steel roofs for the Dodge Bros back in the teens & early 20s as well as stamping steel roofs for rail road cars. Ford Motor Company could have done a lot of things that were done in high end cars of the time frame but he wasn't building a lot of high end cars. That wasn't what he wanted to do. He purchased the Lincoln line to keep Edsel busy so he wouldn't try to keep changing things on the Ford line but eventually, the depression proved that times and designs had to change for a company like Ford to survive. To make a more expensive car in those years before the war would have been industrial suicide.

By 1930, it became apparent that other manufactures were changing body designs as regular as every two years. If Ford wanted to stay competitive then they would have to do the same thing whether Henry wanted to or not. The 1932 models were the first one year only design change Ford made in more modern times. After that, the major changes were every two years. The full steel roof was finally adopted in 1937. The post war era was still heading that direction but for the death of Edsel Ford, they had to continue the model design one more year. They were only ready for the Bonus Built trucks in 1948 so everything else was changed in 1949. According to Bob Gregorie, The design for the 1949 Mercury was the last design that Edsel signed off on before he died in 1943 and it had been re-slated for production in 1948 due to the war. It was originally going to be a design for a full sized Ford and a smaller Ford car was also going to be offered. Henry Ford II and his new advisers stopped that track and had a new car design competition for the new Ford for 1949 and the little car Bob Gregorie designed was given to Ford of France and became the Vedette. I don't think Henry Ford II liked having Bob Gregorie around after his father died. Edsel & Bob worked closely together in the design department and it may have reminded Hank the deuce too much of his late father.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The frames were too flexible which in turn makes the body flex a lot. To make an all steel roof would require a boxed frame with reinforcements to keep everything from flexing. A roof that could flex without wrinkling the roof panel and creating the associated noises was left in the normal way of building cars at the time and that lasted well into the 30s.

Budd had been stamping out all steel roofs for the Dodge Bros back in the early 20s as well
as stamping steel roofs for rail road cars. Ford Motor Company could have done a lot of things that were done in high end cars of the time frame but he wasn't building a lot of high end cars. That wasn't what he wanted to do. He purchased the Lincoln line to keep Edsel busy so he wouldn't try to keep changing things on the Ford line but eventually, the depression proved that times and designs had to change for a company like Ford to survive. To make a more expensive car in those years before the war would have been industrial suicide.

By 1930, it became apparent that other manufactures were changing body designs as regular as every two years. If Ford wanted to stay competitive then they would have to do the same thing whether Henry wanted to or not. The 1932 models were the first one year only design change Ford made in more modern times. After that, the major changes were every two years. The full steel roof was finally adopted in 1937. The post war era was still heading that direction but for the death of Edsel Ford, they had to continue the model design one more year. They were only ready for the Bonus Built trucks in 1948 so everything else was changed in 1949. According to Bob Gregorie, The design for the 1949 Mercury was the last design that Edsel signed off on before he died in 1943 and it had been re-slated for production in 1948 due to the war. It was originally going to be a design for a full sized Ford and a smaller Ford car was also going to be offered. Henry Ford II and his new advisers stopped that track and had a new car design competition for the new Ford for 1949 and the little car Bob Gregorie designed was given to Ford of France and became the Vedette. I don't think Henry Ford II liked having Bob Gregorie around after his father died. Edsel & Bob worked closely together in the design department and it may have reminded Hank the deuce too much of his late father.

also roads were improving all over the place. alot of "roads" when the model a was designed/around were gravel or mud so the body and frames had to be flexable otherwise they would start to split apart (they sometimes do anyways from too much flexing...)

[GeneBob]

In addition to the tooling to make single piece roof, there was the metallurgy to make more complex shapes.