Totally dead after running for an hour

[steve s]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Just add the jumper cable to the battery cable, as it takes a heavy duty cable to carry enough amps to run a starter. Most of the jumper cables I see aren't up the the job.

I don't understand, Tom. Why do jumper cables ever work if they can't carry enough amps to run a starter?

Steve

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by steve s

I don't understand, Tom. Why do jumper cables ever work if they can't carry enough amps to run a starter?

Steve

the starter cable is 1 gauge most jumper cables are 4-8 gauge. booster cables may LOOK beefy but its mostly thick covering around the strands. cut one open you may be suprised whats inside. when you jump a car your putting a charge into the battery but still relying mostly on the exsistig cables on that car to carry the amps. so what tom is saying is to use the cables in conjunction with the exisiting ones.
i prefer to just use an ohm meter to check the cables or circuits for resistance.

[Rust Merchant]

Today I tried the jumper, with the regular cables attached. Nothing.... I removed the starter switch and rubbed the Neg end on the button. No cranks but what sounded like a slight movement of the starter, almost like it was trying to engage; very slight. I got a spark on the button and scraped it hard to make sure I had contact. I have attached a picture of the Neg cable. It looks very old. The starter looks very old too. Battery is reading 6.18 right now.

History on this car; my uncle bought it 30 years ago. He died almost 20 years ago and not much has been done to it since. It has sat quite a lot. It was given to me by my aunt about a month ago.
I'm thinking that new cables are in order. Since I plan to keep it long term and the starter looks very old, I am also thinking a new starter is in order.

I know the motor will turn freely by hand. Even though the starter spins on a bench test, we may not have enough to turn the engine over.

Thoughts?

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Rust Merchant

Today I tried the jumper, with the regular cables attached. Nothing.... I removed the starter switch and rubbed the Neg end on the button. No cranks but what sounded like a slight movement of the starter, almost like it was trying to engage; very slight. I got a spark on the button and scraped it hard to make sure I had contact. I have attached a picture of the Neg cable. It looks very old. The starter looks very old too. Battery is reading 6.18 right now.

History on this car; my uncle bought it 30 years ago. He died almost 20 years ago and not much has been done to it since. It has sat quite a lot. It was given to me by my aunt about a month ago.
I'm thinking that new cables are in order. Since I plan to keep it long term and the starter looks very old, I am also thinking a new starter is in order.

I know the motor will turn freely by hand. Even though the starter spins on a bench test, we may not have enough to turn the engine over.

Thoughts?

when i bench test any starter even modern ones while energizing it i take a block of wood and use it to put pressure on the drive. i have had many that worked but with a little pressure it stopped or slowed, meaning the starter was bad..

[Mitch//pa]

also do yourself a favor and buy a new cable and get rid of that universal end. they work but tend to loosen on the wires

[Rust Merchant]

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Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

also do yourself a favor and buy a new cable and get rid of that universal end. they work but tend to loosen on the wires

It's only about $300 to replace the starter, both cables, and upgrade to a modern starter drive. What do you think if I'm looking at the long term?

FYI: I put that cable end on after the melt down

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Rust Merchant

It's only about $300 to replace the starter, both cables, and upgrade to a modern starter drive. What do you think if I'm looking at the long term?

FYI: I put that cable end on after the melt down

long term do it
also as a suggestion tom w that has been helping you out on this thread may be interested in rebuilding it for you. it wouldnt hurt to pm and ask him maybe its another option....

[Rust Merchant]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

long term do it
also as a suggestion tom w that has been helping you out on this thread may be interested in rebuilding it for you. it wouldnt hurt to pm and ask him maybe its another option....

Thanks Mitch!

[700rpm]

I would suggest if it is possible that you get a local guy who knows Model A's to come over and help you with this, or phone somebody close-by and describe your trouble. I've been following this thread and it seems to me that there is some basic element that is either being misread and misunderstood or simply overlooked. The symptoms to me do not indicate that what you are contemplating is necessary. What I think is necessary is an experienced eye looking at the problem before you start throwing money at it. The nearest MAFCA chapter, Dayton-Buckeye, looks like it's in Englewood, about 90 miles from you. The contact person is Dan Preston (740-815-2729). The nearest MARC chapter is over 100 miles away (I would think there would be something closer to Columbus, but... ah well).

I'd come over myself, but Oregon is a fur piece from your place...

[Bob C]

Have you pulled the band off the starter and looked at the brushes?

Bob

[Tom Wesenberg]

The first thing I'd do is try another battery. 6.18 volts is low for a good 6 volt battery, and since the switch had a dead short you may have buckled some plates in the battery. Have someone lend you a good battery to try. I'd buy a good battery cable from one of the Model A parts houses. Don't worry about replacing the starter yet. After things are working you can clean and repaint it yourself. If the armature is rubbing on the fields then it will need the drive end bushing replaced.

[supergnat]

I see in post 13 that the battery was brand new. I would suggest that you pull the battery and take it back to be tested. It could defective or it was blown by the short as Tom suggested. Be What is the diameter of your starter shaft. If it is 1/2 inch you will not be able to use the modern drive. Also does the drive move freely if you turn it by hand when the starter is out? I pulled my 28 starter out, cleand it up, and reinstalled it. It is old but works just fine. As the others have said, get new cables.
Supergant

[steve s]

Three things:

1. That battery cable definitely looks too light. Buy a good one, designed for 6 volts, like everyone is urging.

2. I'm still wondering about the ground connection(s)--sorry, I don't have it in me to go back thru the whole thread to see if this was covered: When you did the jumper cable thing, did you also jump the battery ground post to engine or somewhere else close to the starter--like Phil and I urged?

3. Why not just take the starter to your local auto electric shop and have them check it out. They can probably fix any problem in short order. You want a grubby old shop in a run down part of town with a crusty old guy close to retirement.

Steve

[Rust Merchant]

Thanks guys! I'll get the cables replaced and throw a known good battery in. I have not opened up the starter. When I had it off, the drive moved freely.

I'll let you know what happens after cables and battery are in.

Thanks again for the help!

Dwight

[Growley bear]

The connector that you have on the pictured cable could be your problem. Those should be used only in an emergency and then replaced by a high quality solder on terminal. That is the voice of over 50 years experience.

[Rust Merchant]

Originally Posted by steve s

Three things:

1. That battery cable definitely looks too light. Buy a good one, designed for 6 volts, like everyone is urging.

2. I'm still wondering about the ground connection(s)--sorry, I don't have it in me to go back thru the whole thread to see if this was covered: When you did the jumper cable thing, did you also jump the battery ground post to engine or somewhere else close to the starter--like Phil and I urged?

3. Why not just take the starter to your local auto electric shop and have them check it out. They can probably fix any problem in short order. You want a grubby old shop in a run down part of town with a crusty old guy close to retirement.

Steve

I thought the starter cable looked like it was too light. I attached a picture of my ground strap. It is definitely old. I did jump both sides. I know just the kind of shop you are talking about Steve!

[Rust Merchant]

Originally Posted by Growley bear

The connector that you have on the pictured cable could be your problem. Those should be used only in an emergency and then replaced by a high quality solder on terminal. That is the voice of over 50 years experience.

I threw that on when the old one melted; planned to replace it. I am ordering both today. Thanks for the help!

[Growley bear]

The clamp on terminals do not offer a proper connection with the cable. They are less likely to work on a 6V system than on a 12V system because a 6V system draws more amperage than a 12V system which is the main reason that the manufacturers went to 12V. More voltage in the system requires less amps. Less amps being drawn allows the use of smaller cables etc. A money saving move for the manufacturers. Also less troublesome for car owners.

[Mitch//pa]

i wonder what the verdict was on this thread??

[Growley bear]

Hey, Rust Merchant,

Did you ever find the problem?
Chet