Hydraulic brakes questions - super hard pedal

[billybronco1]

Hi, my 1929 model A has brakes converted to hydraulic - first thing I noticed is the brake pedal is all the way up and hardly any free play and is hard as a rock - you need to step on it with both feet - super hard to stop the car, is this normal? If I ever needed to stop quickly it isn't going to happen. I have driven old cars with basic hydraulic brakes, no power boost or anything and they seemed to stop just fine without pushing too hard.

[Charlie Stephens]

You need to post some pictures. My first guess would be incorrect ratios in the linkage. What master cylinder and what backing plates are you using?

Charlie Stephens

[fordcragar]

Tell us a little more about the car. Is this a car you just acquired or have you had it a long time and it has been sitting. Or maybe this is a car you just put together.

[billybronco1]

This is my first Model A and I just bought it today - I'm starting to go through it and fix several issues. These brakes just do not feel right to me.

[Tom Wesenberg]

You probably have stuck wheel cylinders from rust rom setting too long.
Are you planing to return to original good mechanical brakes?

[fordcragar]

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What do you know about the car? Has it been sitting and used to run, or was it just put together? If it was working you could have corroded wheel cylinders or master cylinder. Tell us what you have.

[fordcragar]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

..............................Are you planing to return to original good mechanical brakes?

One good thing about mechanical brakes, is that they don't usually rust up and not work. Unless they didn't work well before.

[Charlie Stephens]

If you indeed have a problem with rusty wheel cylinders don't press the brake pedal hard or the shoes will not retract and you will not be able to get the drums off easily (this is probably too late).

Charlie Stephens

[billybronco1]

To the best of my knowledge the car was restored in 2005 by a place that has done several of these. Since then the car has never been in the rain or got wet, and was always garaged. It was driven several times a year. At some point I plan to pull all the wheels & drums to take a peek but I don't really what to expect. I assume it should be set up and stop like any other hydraulic braking car.

I have replaced plenty of brake pads and cylinders in my day, I don't know where to start on this one - like how do I know what is in there for years and how do I buy replacement parts if needed. I did read one article on how these get converted but not sure if all are done the same.

[fordcragar]

I replaced the front wheel cylinders on my coupe last year because of a similar problem. The was driven ever year and then it started pulling to one side. I adjusted the brakes and ran it some and the next year it didn't want to stop.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

To the best of my knowledge the car was restored in 2005 by a place that has done several of these. Since then the car has never been in the rain or got wet, and was always garaged. It was driven several times a year. At some point I plan to pull all the wheels & drums to take a peek but I don't really what to expect. I assume it should be set up and stop like any other hydraulic braking car.

I have replaced plenty of brake pads and cylinders in my day, I don't know where to start on this one - like how do I know what is in there for years and how do I buy replacement parts if needed. I did read one article on how these get converted but not sure if all are done the same.

It is easy for someone that is familiar with the early Ford brakes to tell you what you have. Photograph (remember to set your camera on the lowest resolution in order to post them) the back side of the backing plates showing the adjusters (or lack of) on the bottom and sides. Photograph the master cylinder mount if you get a chance.

Charlie Stephens

[billybronco1]

okay, this will take a while but I will be back - thanks

[billybronco1]

Here is a pic of the master cylinder - what do I have here?

[fordcragar]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

Here is a pic of the master cylinder - what do I have here?

It is an after market master cylinder. Unless you have some receipts, check the Wilwood catalog.

http://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinde...erLanding.aspx

[gweilbaker]

I've worked on a few conversions, mostly poor adaptation of the systems like linkage length and alignment that caused binding, plus what has already been posted. Don't take for granted it is installed correctly.

[PC/SR]

Some brake linings are harder than others, with less friction. I dont know what choices you have with V8 shoes but might be worth checking.

[Jim Brierley]

Jack up the car and have someone press on the brake pedal firmly. Go to each wheel and see if it is locked, each one should be. If only 1 or 2 are locked you will get hard pedal, and lousy stopping. Sounds like the cylinders are frozen, maybe even the master cylinder. This is why I use silicone fluid.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

Jack up the car and have someone press on the brake pedal firmly. Go to each wheel and see if it is locked, each one should be. If only 1 or 2 are locked you will get hard pedal, and lousy stopping. Sounds like the cylinders are frozen, maybe even the master cylinder. This is why I use silicone fluid.

I agree with Jim on this but would like to add the caution if the wheel cylinders are frozen and you push hard you will force the shoes into the drums and you will not be able to get the drums off later.

When I was in school they taught us not to copy. In the real world when I do a brake conversion I copy the entire system out of an existing vehicle (like a 1940 Ford) and never have any problems. I use all of the same components and the same leverage on the pedals. I must admit from the pictures I can't tell the problem, have you asked the people you got the car from if the brakes ever worked properly? It is interesting to note that the master cylinder looks like it was recently installed and the system may have never worked properly.


Charlie Stephens

[Barry B./ Ma.]

My friend bought a 29 tudor that someone had converted the brakes to hydraulic.They used a GM master cylinder that looks like yours and it mounts under the floor behind the drivers seat. The backing plates and drums are stock model A and the wheel cylinders are mounted where the lower anchors were. I don't know how they worked as he is converting it back to mechanicals. The advantage to this setup seemed to be they used mostly stock parts and could keep the Model A emergency setup, also the shoe adjustment was still Model A.

[billybronco1]

Here is a pic of the front & rear outside view of the backing plates - I hope to pull all the wheels next week - what do these look like to you original off something else - maybe a kit ??

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

Here is a pic of the front & rear outside view of the backing plates - I hope to pull all the wheels next week - what do these look like to you original off something else - maybe a kit ??

The backing plates are 1946-48 Ford since there is no adjustment at the bottom (or top in the case of the rear where the backing plates are mounted upside down). Most antique Ford parts suppliers (and many local auto parts houses) will have all parts for these. Go for the made in USA parts. This is probably the most common conversion and you should not have any problems using them if everything else is ok.

Do you have and know how to use a hub puller for the rear wheels? With brute force and the wrong puller you can destroy an axle easily.

Charlie Stephens

[columbiA]

The 42-48 front brakes have stepped wheel cyls with 1" & 1-3/8" bores.The rear stepped cyls are 1" & 1-1/8" bores.Large end of cyls always face the front.If the LR backing plate is turned upside down,you need to use the cyl from RH & vice-versa or you end up with small end of cyls facing forward.Also,your M/C is too small-you need the 39/48 M/C which is 1-1/16" bore instead of the 13/16" one that you have.

[fordcragar]

Out of curiosity, where would you guys buy brake parts? New cylinders or kits?

[John Kuhnast]

Looks like 1939 to 1941 to me. I have these on mine and thay work fine. Suggest useing a dual master.Early mustang works well.Make sure to get the one that is for shoes on all four weels.Google 1939 ford brake adjustment as they have an unusal system of brake adjustment.

[steve s]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

The backing plates are 1946-48 Ford since there is no adjustment at the bottom (or top in the case of the rear where the backing plates are mounted upside down). ...
Charlie Stephens

Originally Posted by John Kuhnast

Looks like 1939 to 1941 to me. I have these on mine and thay work fine. Suggest useing a dual master.Early mustang works well.Make sure to get the one that is for shoes on all four weels.Google 1939 ford brake adjustment as they have an unusal system of brake adjustment.

I agree with Charlie: 46-48.

One more heads up: Depending on how cobbled together your setup is, you might not have all 46-48 wheel cylinders. I found three different kinds in mine.

Steve

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

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My guess is the master cyl. is to big. As someone said, use a early Mustang dual cyl made for drum drum brake. I set one of mine up one time with jouce brakes and used a master from some truck, had full pedle as hard as a rock but didn't stop good. I installed a smaller master, the pedle felt normal and stopped mormal. Walt

[Bob Johnson]

The master cylinder you have is a 13/16" bore which is quite small. The way hydraulic brakes work is smaller bore master cylinders require LESS pressure to activate the brakes but require MORE pedal movement. It is like being on the long side of a teeter-totter. A larger bore will require MORE pressure to activate the brakes. But require less pedal movement.

Since you have a small bore master cylinder. I would guess that the problem is elsewhere. The possibilities are clogged brake lines, frozen or bad wheel cylinders, fouled or bad brake linings, ...

Bob

[billybronco1]

Okay I guess I wont know till I pull it apart but I'm getting mixed reviews here on the master cylinder - one says too big and one says to small. I'm going to ping the previous owner and see if he can shed any light on if it was always like this - not sure I get the answer I want to here.

And to answer the below question - the answer is no

"Do you have and know how to use a hub puller for the rear wheels? With brute force and the wrong puller you can destroy an axle easily."

[fordcragar]

Originally Posted by Bob Johnson

The master cylinder you have is a 13/16" bore which is quite small. The way hydraulic brakes work is smaller bore master cylinders require LESS pressure to activate the brakes but require MORE pedal movement. It is like being on the long side of a teeter-totter. A larger bore will require MORE pressure to activate the brakes. But require less pedal movement.

Since you have a small bore master cylinder. I would guess that the problem is elsewhere. The possibilities are clogged brake lines, frozen or bad wheel cylinders, fouled or bad brake linings, ...

Bob

Originally Posted by billybronco1

Okay I guess I wont know till I pull it apart but I'm getting mixed reviews here on the master cylinder - one says too big and one says to small. I'm going to ping the previous owner and see if he can shed any light on if it was always like this - not sure I get the answer I want to here...................................

What Bob was saying is that with the smaller master cylinder, it would apply more pressure than a larger one; which gives you the idea that the problem is not in the master cylinder.

The brakes that were installed on your car would have used a 1 1/16" diameter master cylinder stock. The master cylinder that is installed, because it is smaller, would give you more pressure.

[Dodge]

Maybe someone put Viagra in the brake fluid........

[charlesea]

Billy, these drums appear to be the 39thru48 Ford like the ones on my car. The backing plates appear to be the same per the adjustment for the shoes.
No one has mentioned that you might have air in the lines. You need a helper to bleed all 4 lines. One to pump & hold while the other lets the air/fluid out of each wheel cylinder. You can catch the fluid so as not to cause a mess. I think air in the lines might cause a hard pedal. Google 39-48 brakes & look at those parts for a comparison. Thompson Garage is a good place to look also. My brakes work great & they are the 39-48 style. Good luck

[van Dyck]

39 to 41 Ford brakes versus 42 to 48 Ford brakes
-adjustable anchors -floating anchors
-smaller wheel cylinders -larger wheel cylinders
-plain backing plates -six rectangle dimples
near the perimeter
-brake shoe round anchor holes -elongated anchor
holes
The brakes in question here are 42 to 48.
The first year for Mustang tandem master cylinders is 1967 - made mandatory in the automotive industry. Use the 1967 - 68 MC designed for the 4 drum system - they use a residual pressure check valve for both front and rear. It works.
Do not mix DOT 3 (glycerine based) with silicone brake fluid.

[Kirby1374]

Originally Posted by charlesea

Billy, these drums appear to be the 39thru48 Ford like the ones on my car. The backing plates appear to be the same per the adjustment for the shoes.
No one has mentioned that you might have air in the lines. You need a helper to bleed all 4 lines. One to pump & hold while the other lets the air/fluid out of each wheel cylinder. You can catch the fluid so as not to cause a mess. I think air in the lines might cause a hard pedal. Google 39-48 brakes & look at those parts for a comparison. Thompson Garage is a good place to look also. My brakes work great & they are the 39-48 style. Good luck

Air would make it soft

[1931 flamingo]

Ck the plunger arm in the M/Cyl, it should NOT be tight against the piston when retracted. There should be some clearance so fluid can return to the reservoir.
Paul in CT

[billybronco1]

The peddle is up to the top and does not depress a 1/2" and is super hard - I found the brake reservoir today under the seat - it had two reservoirs and one is empty so something is wrong there. I ask why two different reservoirs, is one for the front and the other for the rear? Tell me more about removing the rear drums - thanks

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

The peddle is up to the top and does not depress a 1/2" and is super hard - I found the brake reservoir today under the seat - it had two C and one is empty so something is wrong there. I ask why two different reservoirs, is one for the front and the other for the rear? Tell me more about removing the rear drums - thanks

You should fill up the empty reservoir and see what happens. I have never encountered anything like you describe before. Are these both high pressure reservoirs? Does the line from the master cylinder go to both of the reservoir that in turn feed the front and rear brakes separately? You might contact Wilwood about the way their systems work.

A good description of using the hub puller can be found at
http://www.mindspring.com/~bozarth/id5.html

If the hubs were not tightened properly almost any puller can be used. If they were tightened properly (about 200 foot pounds but look it up since everyone disagrees on this number) the cheap pullers will not do the job and may damage parts. There are a couple of pullers out there that are almost as good and I am sure someone will post them. Try contacting local Model A clubs and see if they have one to loan (or maybe rent if you are not a member of the cub).

Charlie Stephens

[billybronco1]

Has anyone ever used one of these hub pullers for drums

[Charlie Stephens]

These guys rent the KR Wilson puller:

Mac VanPelt
VANPELT SALES LLC
Cincinnati, Ohio USA
www.vanpeltsales.com

Charlie Stephens

[billybronco1]

Pretty far from MA

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

Pretty far from MA

Try calling local old Ford Parts stores or inquire about shipping.

Charlie Stephens

[billybronco1]

How can you tell silicone brake fluid fluid from Dot 3 - I plan to flush through with dot 3 does it mater as long as I give it a good flush?

[Charlie Stephens]

Billy,

I called the distributer of your master cylinder (Summit Racing, (330) 630-0240) and asked about the two reservoirs you described in your post. The tech guy couldn't figure out what I was trying to describe based on your post. If you are in a local club you should ask someone to come by and look at your system.

Are the two reservoirs on the high pressure or the low pressure side of the master cylinder? Maybe someone added a second low pressure reservoir because they thought one would not hold enough fluid?

Charlie Stephens

[Bob C]

I think this is your master cylinder, looks like single reservoir. http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Wilwood-...8b86eb&vxp=mtr

Bob

[steve s]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

How can you tell silicone brake fluid fluid from Dot 3 - I plan to flush through with dot 3 does it mater as long as I give it a good flush?

DOT 5 is purple.

Not sure I understand the 2nd question, but I think it's important that all the DOT 3 be removed before adding DOT 5.

Steve

[Charlie Stephens]

Billy,

You might find this interesting. I can't say for sure that it applies to the Model A but I assume it does. Commments anyone?

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...xle+nut+torque

The tech guy at Brattons recommended 100 pounds. I assume the number came from the table in the front of their printed catalog (table not available on line).

Take your pick.

Charlie Stephens

[rich b]

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Make sure you take a look at your pedal ratio as previously mentioned.

A stock Ford juice brake pedal had a ratio of about 6.4 to 1.

I have come across several of stock A pedal conversions with ratios that were way low and resulted in a "have to stand on the pedal with both feet to stop" brake action. A rework of the pedal ratio cured the problem in these cases.

You may find that the little 13/16" master will require a longer stroke than usual; unless of course the second reservoir you found is hooked to another master and you have a dual system.

[billybronco1]

Okay finally getting a closer look at the brakes. I actually have two master cylinders, one for the fronts and one for the rears. I had some one step on the brake as I tried to turn the wheels - fronts turned rears did not. So it now makes sense why the car does not want to stop. Once I clean things up I will try bleeding each wheel and see what the results are. I do not see any obvious leaks and all looks pretty good to me.

The rear hubs came right off and the nut was not tight at all - I noticed some kind of seal behind the big washer, looks like packing plumbers oakum - what should be in there? Also do I load up the big rear bearing with axle grease or just grease it with a grease gun from the outside of the axle? I see a grease fitting on the axle close to the brake backing plate.

[Bob C]

I saw the picture of one master cylinder in post #13, where is the other one mounted?
Never heard of such a thing.

Bob

[billybronco1]

One is on the passenger side and one is on the drivers side.

[billybronco1]

Here is a pic of the second MS on the drivers side

[Kirby1374]

wow, very creative

[billybronco1]

I wonder how I get these in sync as I would think you want more force on the fronts

[Fordors]

I think you need advice from a circle track racer. Those guys will adjust front to rear brake bias similar to what you want to do, but they do it to adjust for track conditions. Loosen the jam nut for the front m/c push rod and adjust that push rod out; you will want to make the fronts come in first as something like 70% of braking force is from the front axle. Remember that you need a bit of clearance (about a 1/16") at the push rod to m/c piston on those fronts. Next, loosen the jam nut on the rear m/c push rod and screw that rod into the clevis, you might even have to remove and cut it down some. The front m/c will have pressure applied first and more than the rear and I'm sure this will take some trial and error on your part to get the desired effect. Once you have done this go to a deserted area, a parking lot, or your driveway (slowly) and test it out.
A racer would know more, but I think this will get you started. Or stopped, actually.

[RichPA]

I have seen a hard pedal several times, its usually fluid thats contaminated with oil of some kind causing the rubber components to swell.Natural rubber and petroleum dont mix.

[Terry, NJ]

They look like 46-48 ford, same as mine. The two 11/16 bolt heads are your adjustments.
One for each shoe. I Believe that turning them upwards tightens them. and turning them downwards loosens them. There is a cam that drives against the shoe and positions it against the drum. Trial and error!but you'll probably have to back off the adjustments because of the little lip that wears into the outer edge of the drum. Good luck!
Terry

[Special Coupe Frank]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

Here is a pic of the second MS on the drivers side

Wow.

Let's see, MC on the left for Brakes on the Driver's Side and MC on the Right for Brakes on the Passenger Side ?



Someone had deep pockets, getting two Willwood MCs...

[steve s]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

Ok ...
The rear hubs came right off and the nut was not tight at all - I noticed some kind of seal behind the big washer, looks like packing plumbers oakum - what should be in there? Also do I load up the big rear bearing with axle grease or just grease it with a grease gun from the outside of the axle? I see a grease fitting on the axle close to the brake backing plate.

The seal may have been a rear wheel hub gasket. Mac's handles all the parts you're likely to need.


http://macsautoparts.com/early-v8-fo...d/F30/cc/1170/

Pack the bearing in the usual way before reassembling. No more than a squirt or two into the fitting. You can overload the system and get grease on the shoes if you get carried away.

I'm a little worried that your axle nut was loose. That's how you shear your axle keys, grind away the taper, and maybe lose your wheel. Often you need to add a shim around the tapered axle end in order to adequately tighten the drum without binding it against the shoes or backing plate. Dennis Cling and others sell detailed booklets on this conversion, which you may need if the prior owner didn't do a conscientious job. I would be concerned, based on what you've shown us so far. Inverting the rear backing plates is the lazy way to do it; you'll see when it comes time to bleed them.

Steve

[billybronco1]

For the rears wheel bearings do you just slap grease in the hub or do you take the bearing out to pack it. This is the huge roller bearing.

[billybronco1]

Originally Posted by Special Coupe Frank

Wow.

Let's see, MC on the left for Brakes on the Driver's Side and MC on the Right for Brakes on the Passenger Side ?



Someone had deep pockets, getting two Willwood MCs...

No no no - one MS for fronts and one MS for rears but they are mounted under the front seat - one on the left and one on the right.

[steve s]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

For the rears wheel bearings do you just slap grease in the hub or do you take the bearing out to pack it. This is the huge roller bearing.

Always pack the wheel bearings; don't rely on grease finding it's way into where it's needed.

[billybronco1]

Found pieces of metal in left rear wheel bearing. Not sure what it is as it does not seem to be the bearing. I noticed a washer or spacer on the right side behind the hub - but its missing on left. The metal could be the chewed up washer.

How do you remover the grease seal - is it re-usable, I removed the keeper ring ?? I'm told the brake parts are from a 46-48 Ford - thanks

[Kirby1374]

I just used a seal remover, the type from the parts store that sort of cuts in as you are trying to pry it out and I put in new seals. I think new seals are a good idea whether the old ones get destroyed coming out (like mine) or not.

[rally 1]

Just went through a changeover in my '31 Tudor. Used the 48 Lincoln setup sold by Macs. Wilwood 1" dual master.
Experienced the "hard pedal' issue also. Chased it down to pedal ratio.
The info in Les andrews book refers to a 5.4:1 ratio, with a single master cyl.
As I increased the pedal ratio through a substantial amount of fabrication, the pedal effort decreased, and the braking efficiency improved. My actual ratio is now a 7.6:1, required a lever assist device.
PM for additional info.
Ken

[billybronco1]

Ok got the seal out - just pounded out like any seal, yes I need a new one. The bearing looks fine as the inside of the hub surfaces.

Question is - what is this washer/spacer I found on the other side, appears to be brass. Does not look like it belongs there. I'm assuming the metal I found in the drivers side hub was from a washer on this side. You can see the washer on the paper.

Keep in mind the axle nuts where not tight at all and the hubs slid right off easily

[steve s]

Don't know about that washer, but I used to get pieces of metal in my rear bearings when a shim would get chewed up, probably from failing to tighten sufficiently. I remember once when I sheared an axle key, I had to fashion a shim out of a tin can I found by the roadside. By the way, when the axle key sheared, it sounded like the transmission blew up.

Steve

[steve s]

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I wonder if that mystery washer is some sort of spacer to compensate for wrong size bearing. MAC's says bearing should be 1 21/32" long. Are both bearings same size?

[billybronco1]

I do not see any shims - where would they be? I think I will re-assemble without the washers and tighten the nut up real good.

BTW - what is the correct install for axle key - what way does the chamfer go ?

[Charlie Stephens]

If your rear wheels came off easily I would worry about damage to the axle (crack starting to form). If the axle fails the wheel will come off. I would recommend some type of safety hub or safety clip sold by places like Speedway. They are good insurance.

Charlie Stephens

[steve s]

The chamfer goes in first and against the axle.

The shim is a piece of very thin metal that wraps around the entire taper of the axle, except where the key protrudes. Model A houses sell them. You will know whether you need one if when you try to tighten the nut, the edge of the drum binds against the backing plate or the inside of the drum binds against the brake shoes.

I hope you don't need them as they have a tendency to work loose. I have a sinking feeling however that whoever did your brakes may have just run out of gumption when he got all done and discovered the wheels didn't fit, and just left them loose! Not good.

The alternative is to grind the edge off the drum and corresponding lip off the the backing plate, or to grind down the shoes/pads. But, I had my drums and plates "professionally" done and still needed a shim. Most disappointing!

Steve

[Charlie Stephens]

While everything is apart be sure that the previous owner installed adapters for using wire wheels on hydraulic drums. If you don't know what I am talking about go to http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...ns#post8330045

Charlie Stephens

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

I do not see any shims - where would they be? I think I will re-assemble without the washers and tighten the nut up real good.

BTW - what is the correct install for axle key - what way does the chamfer go ?

Hey Billy,
Whew...if you are not confused by now...you may have to 'get your mind right',eh !
First of all you've got the brakes setup used'46 thru '48.
The gasket 'thing' that you found on the 'outside'...under the axle nut IS a gasket to contain grease. You can order them, you can make them out of rubber, gasket material, etc....
The brass looking 'shim' that you found on left rear...is a very poor / dangerous (IMO) attempt to compensate for WORN parts. You can order stainless shims (get several) that will do the compensation safely..but new or newer parts would be the way to do,eh.
You say that you found metal chips in there. Examine everything in detail for damage and replace if ANY found.
DO take out the large rear wheel bearings and make all very clean. Upon replacing, grease bearing (pack) by hand. I would advise against using axle grease zerk, as that's recipe for tooo much lube..which gets into brakes. In fact, IMO, cap this off...as Ford eventually eliminated it.
BtW the axle key... I put mine flat surface down into slot with tapered end facing up and out (made it easier to start drum on,eh!
The fact that you had virtually NO torque on the rear axle nuts...was good for only one thing, the idea of getting the drums off by hand with puller. Depends on how long the car was driven/used , as to possible damage that could have/ may have been caused. EXAMINE EVERYTHING very closely for damage/cracks.
Torque to 200 ft/lbs first time then drive , then torque again, drive some, then torque...you get the idea. Oh, and for sure...NO GREASE on spindle and spindle mating surface!! With all good parts, it is recommended to LAP drums to spindles prior to other assembly and lube/torqueing. Lots more but got to go take care of centigenarios. Merry Christmas to you and good luck

[billybronco1]

Oh no - two different ways on how to insert the axle drive key ?????

[4banger]

Those backing plates are from a 1946 to 1948 ford because they have single shoe adjusters. The Wilwood master cylinder is a 13/16 bore. you should be using a 1" bore to match the original 1946 ford master cylinder.

[charlesea]

Billy, could there be air in the lines causing some of the problems? The 2 pictures look like 39-48 Ford brakes. This is what is on my car when I bought it 3 years ago.

[zzlegend]

Billy maybe this will help on the keyway placement. You have to look close at #4243

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/F...y_1932to37.jpg

[columbiA]

Ive always installed the key with the chamfer on the axle & facing diff.As for using 29-35 wires on 46-48 drums,Ive used 2 flat washers on each stud & never had a problem with wheels cracking.Sometimes you have to grind or knock off a balance weight on the drum so that wheel will seat properly.

[29closedcab]

Those master cylinders in my opinion need to be mounted side by side using the wilwood bracket and pedal assembly. The assembly has a bar to activate both cylinders as 1. Residual valves and a proportioning valve are a must. To first control bias front to rear but also to prevent air from being sucked in. Maybe bench bleed the cylinder that is giving you issues.

[billybronco1]

Originally Posted by columbiA

Ive always installed the key with the chamfer on the axle & facing diff.As for using 29-35 wires on 46-48 drums,Ive used 2 flat washers on each stud & never had a problem with wheels cracking.Sometimes you have to grind or knock off a balance weight on the drum so that wheel will seat properly.

I like this way of mounting the key - matches opposite chamfer on axle

I have no washers or spacer plates on my hubs for the newer wire wheels - I will check this out - thanks

[billybronco1]

I realized I do not need the hub/wheel spacer because I'm running 16" wheels off a 34 ford. Also the metal in the bearing was the remains of a shim. Now as I lay in bed thinking of what to do next. I need seals and a few front bearings which I will order soon - BUT?

I was thinking about bleeding the brakes - where I have two master cylinders (one for the front - one for the rear) I will have to do a front & rear bleed at the same time as the peddle will not go down if I just do one - sound right? This is going to get interesting. I had a friend look at the wheel cylinders as I pushed on the brake lightly with hubs off - they all move out on one shoe. Are both shoes suppose to move or just one?

[Bob C]

You could disconnect the push rod from one MC and bleed the other one. That system sounds like nothing
but problems, I would go with a single tandem master cylinder.

Bob

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

I realized I do not need the hub/wheel spacer because I'm running 16" wheels off a 34 ford. Also the metal in the bearing was the remains of a shim. Now as I lay in bed thinking of what to do next. I need seals and a few front bearings which I will order soon - BUT?

I was thinking about bleeding the brakes - where I have two master cylinders (one for the front - one for the rear) I will have to do a front & rear bleed at the same time as the peddle will not go down if I just do one - sound right? This is going to get interesting. I had a friend look at the wheel cylinders as I pushed on the brake lightly with hubs off - they all move out on one shoe. Are both shoes suppose to move or just one?

You are not out of the woods yet. The 16 inch wire wheels you have are probably from a '35 as the '34 wheels were 17 inch. Hard to tell for sure without a picture. The Ford wire wheels through '35 all needed the adapter. Attached you wil find photos of the original Model A drum and hub assembly with an arrow pointing to the raised ring. This was replaced with raised and machined areas in the drums beginning with the late '31 cast drums and going through '35. The '40 drum did not have this raised area and needed an adapter ring as shown.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by columbiA

Ive always installed the key with the chamfer on the axle & facing diff.As for using 29-35 wires on 46-48 drums,Ive used 2 flat washers on each stud & never had a problem with wheels cracking.Sometimes you have to grind or knock off a balance weight on the drum so that wheel will seat properly.

I can't visualize how the two washers would solve the problem of the inboard side of the lug nut hole being at a higher elevation then the outboard side due to the raised area on the '28-'35 drums. I have included photos of a Model A drum and later cast drums to show the raised area I am talking about. I have also included a photo of a '40-'48 type drum without the raised areas and one with an adapter setting on the drum. I am sure you could get away without the spacer without having a problem since the wheels were strong and the cars are driven very little but I sleep better with the adapters installed on mine.

Charlie Stephens

[billybronco1]

I'm sure the adapters would not hurt - where do you buy them? If I go back to 19 - 21" rims I would defiantly need them

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

I'm sure the adapters would not hurt - where do you buy them? If I go back to 19 - 21" rims I would defiantly need them

Buy them the same place you order you other parts to save shipping. You also need them on the '35 rims. MAC's has them (macsautoparts.com) has them under part umber A1015SP. Please don't even think about using 19 inch rims on a '29.

Charlie Stephens

[billybronco1]

Car has had 16" wheels on it for seven years - why not 19"? This is by no mean an original show car.

[Charlie Stephens]

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Originally Posted by billybronco1

Car has had 16" wheels on it for seven years - why not 19"? This is by no mean an original show car.

I am sorry I misled you with my editorial comment. Unless you are dealing with an AR (early '28) the 19 inch wheels will fit and function fine on the '28-'29. It is just a personal thing but I really dislike the 19 inch wheels on a '28-'29 vehicle. I also don't like to see the 21 inch wheels on a '30-'31. The strange thing is that I don't have the same negative reaction about the 16 inch wheels (maybe it is because it was a common WW II change). I wonder how other people feel about this?

Charlie Stephens

[billybronco1]

I'm not sure I need the spacers with the 16" wheels as they are from a 34-36 era car and with juice brakes my hubs are 39-46 they seem to pull down all they way - am I missing something here?

I understand if I put 19 -21 inch like what was on original I would need the spacers with the hubs I have - right?

[Charlie Stephens]

All of the 1928-35 wire wheels had a step to allow or the ring or machined pads. I don't know the reason for this step but the engineers obviously intended that there be support in this area. I tend to error on the safe side and use the adapters. As someone else pointed out with the low mileage and gentle usage you can probably run without the spacers for years. Look at the back of your wheels and you will see where this step is, put some modeling clay there and you will see there is a gap. If I had a limited budget I would put the brake clips or hub retainers on first.

Charlie Stephens

[billybronco1]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

Has anyone ever used one of these hub pullers for drums

Anyone had luck using a wheel puller like this found on ebay?

[van Dyck]

I've noticed in post#47 that the brake shoe installation is inconsistent front and rear. Question: does the long lining shoe fit into the large end of the wheel cylinder and the short lining shoe fit into the small end of the wheel cylinder?

[billybronco1]

Maybe I should pull both rears again and compare as the right rear is okay but I have too much drag in the left rear and can't adjust it to be free. Its not real bad but more than I would desire and it seems the shoes do not retract all the way. If I snap the ebrake cable sometimes its better, then I step on the brake and it drags again, so among other things it appears to be sticking. I bought one of these hub pullers on eBay so until it comes I can't do anything. The first time I took it apart the hubs came right off only because the axle nut was not tight at all.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by billybronco1

Maybe I should pull both rears again and compare as the right rear is okay but I have too much drag in the left rear and can't adjust it to be free. Its not real bad but more than I would desire and it seems the shoes do not retract all the way. If I snap the ebrake cable sometimes its better, then I step on the brake and it drags again, so among other things it appears to be sticking. I bought one of these hub pullers on eBay so until it comes I can't do anything. The first time I took it apart the hubs came right off only because the axle nut was not tight at all.

Since you are going to have it apart again take the drums to a brake shop and have them measured. Most people consider 12.060 (unless otherwise marked on the drum) the maximum safe diameter. This may be the law in some states and is the industry standard in other areas. If you are going to need them for your next brake job it is better to look for them at swap meets or in for sale ads than to have to buy them at a premium because you need them in a hurry.

Charlie Stephens

[van Dyck]

The E-brake cable should be backed off a long way so that brake shoe-to-drum clearance can be correctly adjusted. Once this is accomplished, adjust the E-brake cable. Also check for cable freedom of movement: it must retract completely on its own without assisted "snapping" or jiggling.

[billybronco1]

I bought one of those wheel pullers posted in #89 - it worked very well