Hershey is Dying, Corrections are needed

[dean from bozeman]

As I drove westward on my way home I stopped at a turnpike oasis. As I turned off my truck I noticed four gray haired men getting out of their vehicle. Three of them could only walk in short steps and with decided limps. The trailer they were hauling had tables and rusted parts sticking out from under a tarp. I surmised that they had visited Hershey.

The day before as I sat in my swap space (actually part of Gary Johnson's) I noticed that approximately 90% of folks walking by had some or all gray hair. I also noticed that directly across the aisle there were four empty swap spaces. Looking around I noticed several huge RV/Motorhomes with the "mandatory" card table of parts.

Putting these observations together it dawned on me that at Hershey you get an excessive amount of walking for an aging clientele with a dwindling return (fewer parts per swap space). This does not bode well for the future of Hershey.

My suggestion would be to grandfather in those who have had swap spaces for years but now treat that space as a private parking lot. Perhaps dedicating the Orange field for these "card table RV's" would clear up hundreds of swap spaces for those who use 50% or more of their swap space for the selling of parts.

Another suggestion would be to eliminate empty spaces. I understand that gas prices, personal events, etc. could keep a person away for a year but if a space was not used for two years in a row the person should lose that space. By the way, I don't know Hershey's rules but I imagine that there is something like this on the books.

Though it is comforting to go to "regular" swap spaces and have known neighbors, I wish that Hershey would condense the active swap spaces. This would make the overall experience more productive and less of a survival ordeal.

I look forward to reading other input.

Dean

P.S. Let it be known that God willing I will be at Hershey every year I can. I do hope that our favorite gigantic swap meet lasts ad infinitum.

[tmiller6]

I was back to Hershey this year after a three year absence. It always coincides with a meeting that I have to attend but this year I was able to break free.

What I noticed was all the empty spaces even on Wednesday and also many on-field parking lots where there was not so much as a card table with parts. I also noticed many people on electric scooters, Segways, and even a hybrid which consisted of a running Honda generator cooled by a desk fan placed in a wagon towed by an electric scooter. Another guy built a two wheel trailer for a standing passenger. Many of these operators whizzed by and acted like they had the right of way over foot traffic. I am guessing this is a consequence of all the fields being paved. I am not a doctor and will not comment on anyone's physical needs, I just was put off by having to dodge these drivers several times.

[Deluxe Delivery]

Hershey is what you want to make it. I arrive Tuesday morning and leave Saturday afternoon. In between I have the most fun a car guy can have. I love seeing all the people, old and young, talking to the foreigners (guests in our land), walking, and walking and walking. Treasures are everywhere and I enjoy the sights. I didn't notice the empty spaces at all, but then I am a "glass half full" kind of person. Yeah, the scooters are disturbing, but that is our society, not Hershey's fault. I see it as 5 days of sanity with "my people" and then a 360 day wait out in the truely insane world. I will go as long as my tired old body will let me, sleeping in my truck, cooking my own meals, and having the time of my life!

[C26Pinelake]

I am a great believer that the only things to be sold at these auto swap meets must be auto related. Many vendors say that if their wives couldn't display their wares they would not accompany them. So I say leave them home or have the event do a seperate spot for non auto rtelated.
Paths should be marked for pedestrians only because I persoanlly had a small scooter run into my heels and he said it was my fault for not moving fast enough !
Improvements needed to keep the masses returning !

[TD]

I must say I unwittingly arrived Friday night for a day at Hershey Saturday. After waiting an hour in a line over a mile long Saturday morning we parked and made the walk onto the site to find out Saturday was "pack up and leave day". I was amazed this tradition evolved given the packed crowd there. Never had attended an event that packed up on a Saturday as people were coming in. Needless to say I had a long list of things to buy and went home empty handed. I'll know better now and am planned to go during the week next year and just miss work to catch the Wed thru Fri. vendors. I know the tradition can't be reversed but it was disappointing. We still stayed all day and partied all night!
TD

[Kevin in NJ]

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Yes you are right Hershey is not what it was and will never be.

Here are 2 big reasons.

Internet/ Ebay- too easy to sell stuff and get top buck.

Pennsylvania Dept of Revenue- (this is not a political statement, but an observation of fact) You must have a sales tax license and major corporations can not afford what it takes. So regular people tend to forgo the pleasure of a tax number. The companies can not afford to do a tax filing in their home state plus open their profits up to PA taxes and the added cost of accounting.

You will notice few major non-PA large restoration parts shops selling at Hershey. They make take orders and ship, but not actually transact money in PA. Remember the better selection of tool sellers that used to be there?

Throw in a bad economy and higher then what people are used to gas prices and you have a recipe for less. Keep in mind that gas prices are currently inline with inflation. It appears that for a while they were kept artificially below inflation and now the price has caught up.

Please the above is NOT a political commentary. All the above are verifiable facts to put a picture on what may be happening.

[Richard Wilson]

Dean makes good points that could be applied to other "major" car shows as well. I see the exact same things happening at the Charlotte (NC) spring and fall Auto Fairs and local shows as well.

[Frank Miller]

It has changed much over the years. We used to get started just before daylight and stay until dark. Now they all close up at 5 pm. We leave Friday afternoon because we started going on Tuesday. I can remember when there was no automobile traffic allowed in the flea market on Saturday because there were so many people. Now there is plenty of space wherever you go. I think most people that spend 3 or 4 days selling want a day to go to the car show if they are still there. I know there is much more that is different but those points are what I notice the most.

[CarlG]

I know that if and when I am able to go to Hershey, it will be a big investment in time and money -- just to get there. And, sorry to say, I'd have to be one of the "scooter guys". As my Dr. says, my knees get "pissed-off" at me when I do that much walking.

BTW, are scooters available to rent?

[ronn]

Dean, well said. I have been stating this for the past few years now. Will also state that I completely agree with Kevin as well. In light of all that has been said, yes Hershey needs to reorganize and improved upon. Change is not always a bad thing....
If all of the empty spaces were consolidated, the experience would be better. I for one, would have liked a space this year, but since they are hoarded up and the org gets paid, nothing will change.
I spent Tuesday at Hershey and left for home with a heap of cash in my pocket. Had I been able to procure a space, more money would have exited my pockets and I would have been happy.
As Kevin states-not being political, everything is turning to tax in America. It has been said for several years now that the gov will be imposing a tax on ebay sales, for example. When that happens, I no longer will use ebay to buy or sell. This is the way everything seems to be headed.
Antique autos and parts are a hobby for me and many. When it gets taxed to death, I will be exiting
and taking long walks on the beach, until tax is imposed on that enjoyment....

[leo]

Internet, Ebay, yes but if you want to see and examine what your buying it can't be done. However Kevin is right, the times they are a changing. For small dealers (who are the majority) the cost of gasoline and taxes is a big consideration and the economy is very bad right now. Hershey will survive and continue to be the end all of antique car shows no matter how we may try to mess it up......

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by dean from bozeman

. . . I noticed that approximately 90% of folks walking by had some or all gray hair. . .

Ahh, gray. I remember that.
The other 10% have no hair or are wearing someone else's hair.

[mhsprecher]

I am old enough to remember when Saturday was a big day and you could spend all day in the flea market. A few years ago, I went back with the old friend that I have been going with since 1966, and after we looked at the car corral and the cars getting judged, the flea market vendors were leaving. What a disappointment. We learned, however, and came back this year for flea market on Friday and went to look at the cars on Saturday. It does make it tough for those who can't take a day off, though.

[Wick]

Bill Hirsh's big tent was not there this year. The crowd was never elbow to elbow walking across the bridge. there was not alot of Chatter on the P.A. either.
I will be back next year!
Wick

[leo]

One other thing that they really improved this year was the day parking access. Last year I spent on HearsheyPark Drive waiting to get into the lot, this year it was a lot less.......

[gz]

Not cheap to go to Hershey from out of town and spend Tuesday through Saturday. With the jacked up hotel prices, gas, and misc. you have already spent over grand before you buy a single part. Back in the "old days" there were so many bargains to be found that the cost of attending was absolutely worthwhile, now days, bargains are few and far between and there are more people looking for them. Years ago, I was an active seller at Hershey and had no problem being able to fill a 14 foot box truck full of great parts and other items to be able to take there. I would virtually sell out before Friday and many times the items I would sell would be resold a few times after that-making everyone happy. There just aren't that many garages and/or collections to be bought at reasonable prices anymore and today there are many other selling opportunities that don't require holding onto the items until Hershey or any other swap meet.
I feel also that there are more focused swap meets that are more productive than Hershey such as Chickasha and Bakersfield for early parts. I think the LA Roadster's father's day swap meet even has more prewar Ford cars and parts and more serious buyers for these items than Hershey.

[29ModelA]

The hours and schedule do not coincide well with people that work and are not retired. If it lasted the weekend my wife and I would go every year, with it during the week and closing up at 5, I could not justify taking the time off and heading out.

I got lucky this year and had a work meeting nearby, I got there at 3 and had to run around trying to find the parts I needed, still never bought anything. I think it would be nice to group similar booths together when possible.

[2manycars]

Most folks who are still working get some vacation time. Why not take vacation time at hershey? As for grey hair, yes the hobby is aging. Yes there are more scooters. I remember when I could walk 20 miles a day all week to see the stuff, now my feet are shot after 2 days. I would have loved to have a scooter. Spots with large motor homes and one or two parts for sale is sad, but how to avoid it? Lots of junk at diamond prices, but still lots of good value, and lots of stuff never seen anywhere else. The whole hershey thing is an adventure. I make it my vacation, and enjoy the event, the local attractions, and the Amish food. I think it is the best organized and best run event I have ever attended. 9,000 vendors, 1330 cars in the show, and hundreds of car coral entrants, and it all ran smoothly. I love it. No complaints. I have my reservations in for next year.

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by dean from bozeman

As I drove westward on my way home I stopped at a turnpike oasis. As I turned off my truck I noticed four gray haired men getting out of their vehicle. Three of them could only walk in short steps and with decided limps. The trailer they were hauling had tables and rusted parts sticking out from under a tarp. I surmised that they had visited Hershey.

The day before as I sat in my swap space (actually part of Gary Johnson's) I noticed that approximately 90% of folks walking by had some or all gray hair. I also noticed that directly across the aisle there were four empty swap spaces. Looking around I noticed several huge RV/Motorhomes with the "mandatory" card table of parts.

Putting these observations together it dawned on me that at Hershey you get an excessive amount of walking for an aging clientele with a dwindling return (fewer parts per swap space). This does not bode well for the future of Hershey.

My suggestion would be to grandfather in those who have had swap spaces for years but now treat that space as a private parking lot. Perhaps dedicating the Orange field for these "card table RV's" would clear up hundreds of swap spaces for those who use 50% or more of their swap space for the selling of parts.

Another suggestion would be to eliminate empty spaces. I understand that gas prices, personal events, etc. could keep a person away for a year but if a space was not used for two years in a row the person should lose that space. By the way, I don't know Hershey's rules but I imagine that there is something like this on the books.

Though it is comforting to go to "regular" swap spaces and have known neighbors, I wish that Hershey would condense the active swap spaces. This would make the overall experience more productive and less of a survival ordeal.

I look forward to reading other input.

Dean

P.S. Let it be known that God willing I will be at Hershey every year I can. I do hope that our favorite gigantic swap meet lasts ad infinitum.

DEAN ...............
I have not been able to go to Hershey since the 70s. I noticed the same thing then. There were people, who had their RVs parked in the spaces, with a card table, out front, with a sign that said, "Take A Business Card".
I figured that these were AACA "big-wigs". This was, at a time, when spaces were really at a premium and hard to get.
I was very disappointed in the AACA for allowing this to go on.
From the thread, it seems there were a lot of empty spaces. If they could be combined, there might be more room for customer parking.
MIKE

[peters180a/170b]

Don't pick on the ORANGE field...l.o.l. it is for me a quick way to the show field....l.o.l. [back door] I am in the ORANGE field and yes you might be on something Dean.... No more ORANGE field ...it will now be called the GRAY field.... Did you ever notice the MIDDLE of the CHOCOLATE field....??? ALL Hershey member club cars.... not that i care but you need the middle of the field??? It seemed that Hershey was thinned out ...IT IS a shame.... Doug Bruce did not make it down , The wek before he was in the Hospital for a short time. I did get a chance to sell some caps of his to pay for his unused 3 spaces.... Driver use and A.A.C.A. judging use.,,,original restored radiator/gas caps ...$95.00 - $100.00

[H. L. Chauvin]

Never had the opportunity to go to Hersey; however, appears more often than not, the excess rain & very muddy conditions were mentionned far more often than any types of dry, dusty conditions.

Is it possible that one could investigate if there is a month during the year for this particular area that historically has less rain, & drier conditions.

Excess rain & mudddy walking surfaces may appear less attractive to all of our young Model A people with gray hair.

Just a thought.

[2manycars]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

How was the car corral? I'm sure the prices were high that's a given, but did anybody haggle a good deal on an antique Ford? Know of anyone who may have? Any pictures?

Thanks.

I saw a nice Jag E type 12 cylinder come in, and it had a sign on it for $31,000. Friday evening it had a sign on it $21,000 and SOLD.

[blgitn]

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

DEAN ...............
I have not been able to go to Hershey since the 70s. I noticed the same thing then. There were people, who had their RVs parked in the spaces, with a card table, out front, with a sign that said, "Take A Business Card".
I figured that these were AACA "big-wigs". This was, at a time, when spaces were really at a premium and hard to get.
I was very disappointed in the AACA for allowing this to go on.
From the thread, it seems there were a lot of empty spaces. If they could be combined, there might be more room for customer parking.
MIKE

This year was the longest I've ever spent there (2 days). It may or may not be changing; I've only been there a few times, but I think it's great. I was only annoyed by the young able-bodies on the hover-rounds. You see things (and meet people,.. hello Brent) there you just don't get to see in person anywhere else: I saw a nice SK120 coupe in the car corral near the Hudson end, and a 29 AA too. There were TWO Blue Model K Tourings in the Red field, and that '06 Stanley Racer too.
She and I will take vacation days to attend mid-week next year too.

- of course; I didn't take a SINGLE picture.

R/ Roger.

[dean from bozeman]

Mike, I too am a "glass is half full" person. It is something I look forward to every year for many of the reasons that you mention. For me there are some issues that need to be addressed so that it continues to be a viable antique car experience. Adjustments and improvements are made to things we want to see continue and grow.

H.L. don't worry about mud. Every swap space is on pavement.

I, too, don't understand the pack up on Friday mentality. Though the car show is the big draw it seems like many are unable to be at a swap meet during the work week.

The car corral is just amazing. A couple years ago my brother-in-law came to Hershey. His dad had a gas station and as a kid he worked on many vehicles. As we walked the corral he pointed out the good and bad points on vehicles from the 50's and 60's. That walk was "priceless" as they say.

I love the swap, car corral and show at Hershey. I know it's a song about West Virginia but the John Denver song phrase that goes, 'Almost heaven...' fits Hershey too.

Dean

[Arlen]

I spoke with a car judge on Saturday. He said they had 1300 cars in the show but that they were short 80 judges!

[redmodelt]

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Even if I won the lottery, Hershey is no longer on my bucket list of things to do, too far east. The Portland Oregon swap meet is big enough and it's close to home. As a vendor and working the grounds as part of the clubs putting it on I noted there was a drop in attendance this last one. Ours is move in on Thursday, sell Friday to about 1 on Sunday with move out on Sunday.
The pre-war one in Oklahoma, now that is a different story, would love to go to it.

[Steve Wastler]

Great minds think alike, I have been thinking similar thoughts the last couple of years. Haven't been going as long as some of you, but I definitely remember the mud and unbelievable amount of brass in the late 70's. Met master restorer Walter Seeley, with his American Underslung. Oh, Hershey of the past! Fall Hershey and spring Carlise were the must go swaps. Haven't been to Carlise but once in the last 20 years, cause not much there for me. I will continue to go, hopefully for more than one day, and b*tch about the boobs with traffic control and parking, the motorized people movers that have taken over the last couple of years, and the unused spaces. Each year I still feel the excitement knowing I will see at least one spectacular thing I had never seen or may never seen again.

[SteveB31]

I have not been to Hershey for 20 years, but here are a couple thoughts on swap meets in general.

I have attended swap meets my entire life, and have noticed less Model A Parts every year.

Here is why.

1. 30 years ago, the Model A was only 50 years old. Today it is 80 years old. 30 years worth of parts that are now on cars...

2. Internet. The other day I noticed we needed some more Zenith carberators to rebuild, and many folks have purchased them from us without sending us a carb. to rebuild. Years ago I would have gone to a swap meet to find some. Instead I got on Ebay and bought 10 Zenith carbs. and never left the couch.. so....I no longer needed to go to the swap meet to find any.

3. Fuel prices. 20 years ago you could drive to Hershey from 1000 miles away for $150 in gas each way. Now ....$400 in gas each way.....

I LOVE swap meets. But.....the internet makes more sense often to find things now then driving and driving and driving.....

Just my thoughts......

Steve Becker
Berts Model A Center

[LukeDahlinger]

First off I've never been to Hershey, but the graying of the hobby and the scooters is a common trait at any old car swap meet. Between scooters and people pulling wagons it can make for tough going on anyone walking on foot. I may sound cold when I say this, but people poking along slowly on scooters talking to their buddy in the scooter next to them clogging up the aisles 2 or 3 wide is one of my pet peeves. I have arthritis in both knees and by rights should be using a scooter, but walking is great exercise.

The cost of fuels and lodging can add up when driving 1000+ miles one way to something like Hershey. An easy way to solve that is to carpool. A friend & I went to Chickasha in March, between fuel & hotel bills we spent around $400 each for a 2600 mile round trip. Not bad for a F-350 Ford Diesel loaded to the gills with T & A parts.

Chickasha is ALOT smaller than Hershey, but I highly recommend it to anyone. I found lots of good stuff at very reasonable prices. It's small enough you can easily cover it in a day and don't have to weed thru a bunch of BS glassware and crybaby dolls.

I would love to attend Hershey one year, but I'm far from retired and I'd have to carry 50 grand with me because I'd see alot of stuff I would want to bring home.

Just my random thoughts.

[spdway1]

From a young guy here, I attended Hershey last year for my first time. I was amazed by the variety in one place and there is a lot of rusty gold there. As I did not attend this year, I will attend a few times again in my life time. My thoughts were, with the internet you could get just about anything without leaving your house! Do you really think you saving money on shipping by picking it up at the meet??? Fuel, meals, lodging, parking, carrying your treasures and TIME...

[larrys40]

Hey guys... I'm 52 and have been going on and off for 20 years. Boy has it changed for me in that time! I've gone from finding really cool NOS ford stuff in my earlier years to scrounging to find anything for the projects I'm working on now, and I'm a box scrounger! I remember saturday's when the field were still fairly full. I had a few things that pulled me away from the swap area Friday so I tried to hit a few Saturday before the car show. The red field was all but gone, like almost vacant, and the chocolate wasn't much better. The only field that had much left was orange as it was over by the car show. It was really sad... There was one vendor that had quality Model A parts in red field ( i think he was the only one left) , I spend $60 at his space and probably gave a little more than normal for a few things... but then again he had quality items and was there for the duration. I was his only sale of the day. It's simple yet probably true.. they say if you build it they will come. If the vendors stay there will be customers. No vendors, no customers. It's just that simple. If vendors want to complain of no sales just look and ask yourself...do I stay for the sale or not. If your answer is go, then your neighbor will go, then his neighbor.. etc. Before long there's no vendors... and no customers as they don't come to see an empty parking lot!!!

I understand that vendors get there Tuesday, and get tired or otherwise... but then again... the show is suppose to be Wednesday to Saturday. There were vendors pulling out Thursday and Friday before noon. You've got to be kidding! You've already paid the majority expense to be there. If you all think it's so great why not stay and take it all in?

I definately think the AACA should evaluate and make some changes.
I think there should be a "veteran" parking area if you will for those who desire to have a small swap space but basically just use it for close proximaty parking/vending, and let the majority of the spaces be sold/used for those who really want to vend and sell parts. It's very frustrating to walk as I did this year around the entire meet only to have so many voids. It is sad. I can see that even though I enjoy searching for that special part and deal my days of coming and affordability at hershey are numbered. Unfortunately there aren't many younger folks getting in to it for obvious reasons as well.

I see other swap meets like Indy... etc dying as well. In 20 years Hershey won't need all that asphault they have down... that's for sure! Unless they work on cultivating more youth, things to make the meet more affordable and attractive to folks, and improving on the cause/effect issues that are increasing every year. I think it's still a great show/time... but boy can I see room for improvement!

[Roadster62]

Ditto! Only flaw with Hershey is the fact that I've never had the pleasure of meeting you, that's my Hershey 2013 goal. Bob

Originally Posted by Deluxe Delivery

Hershey is what you want to make it. I arrive Tuesday morning and leave Saturday afternoon. In between I have the most fun a car guy can have. I love seeing all the people, old and young, talking to the foreigners (guests in our land), walking, and walking and walking. Treasures are everywhere and I enjoy the sights. I didn't notice the empty spaces at all, but then I am a "glass half full" kind of person. Yeah, the scooters are disturbing, but that is our society, not Hershey's fault. I see it as 5 days of sanity with "my people" and then a 360 day wait out in the truely insane world. I will go as long as my tired old body will let me, sleeping in my truck, cooking my own meals, and having the time of my life!

[juke joint johnny]

I haven't been for a few years but I really enjoyed it,

If they had one field just for paid camping spaces they could put all those huge Motorhomes on it and give everyones legs a break!!!

John Cochran

[no6]

Hershey has gone downhill somewhat but it is still better than Carlisle and on a positive note, no mud. I had a excellent 3 days and went home broke, infact I'm still trying to recover financially.

[oliverguy]

I've been going since I was about 12, I'm 36 now. The fleamarkets actually have been consolidated a lot since the 1980's because of development by hershey co. I agree probably more is needed. It's still the best out there for early cars. Also minimal household junk, china tools and fake signs. Lots of negotiating to reduce the historically high prices. Some vendors gave me a huge break.

I focused on the area in front and behind the Giant's stadium. That is populated with younger vendors and was packed with items. The areas closer to the old hershey park stadium are used by people that have been going for 40 years & that is where there is no longer much action.

The days are shifting. People are showing up on Tuesday. By Friday they are out of money. Plus there are two day's worth of car auctions so likely people want to go to that too. You are right by saturday the flea market is done. I save 3 days vacation every year to go. Just because it's important to me.

If you need something, it wills still be there. Still Lots of model a and t parts. I found everything I needed, even an early NOS taillight for my 46 willys jeep. And I could look at it and negotiate on price. I saw quite a few grand daughtes and grandsons driving cars such as in the highwheeler race and the vintage race car trials.

Still the best in my opinion, but tweeks every year will keep it going.

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by LukeDahlinger

I have arthritis in both knees

But i thought you were like 29 or something? Was this a side effect from paint fumes or something like that i should worry about?

[CarlG]

There is only one guy here in Alaska that regularily attends Hershey. He has several old cars, among them a 28 Fordor. We are meeting with him tomorrow morning for Breakfast to hear about his experiences and see pictures from this year's event.

[LukeDahlinger]

Originally Posted by dumb person

But i thought you were like 29 or something? Was this a side effect from paint fumes or something like that i should worry about?

I'm in my 30s but arthritis knows no age barrier. Mine stems from prior injuries and genetics.

[peters180a/170b]

My first Hershey was in 1974 . Seen dry spells there to 3 feet of water in the Blue field , snow , 80's to 30's in temp ....from parking around the air plane landing strip to parking on it [ the original white field] ..I paid $125.00 for a full set restored Dill valve stems to $375.00 for a restored set of 5 Schraders.. Heard stories on the field $300.00 for a n.o.s. battery box {sold} to $300.00 n.o.s. fan belt [bend able]. I just like walking around just to look at all the different parts that went on so many car manufacturers..This year i took a fall on early Thursday morning that screwed up my bad knee to start with, so walking was cut very short. One thing for sure i gotta buy something before i leave needing it or not.

[FRANK PKNY]

If you arrive on tuesday the set up day all the big buyers are there and buy, buy and buy, even the forigners do that. What's left if often over price or not very good. By Friday afternoon things die down I was in the red field behind the stadum and did not get very good crowds. I agree that the people that just want a prrking space could be consoladated into one area. They could cut down the vast area to a more manageable size, everyone would benifit. I pack on Sat. morning so I can see the car show, this year I was not feeling well so went straight home. Still love Hershey! This bunch of posts should be copied and sent to the AACA! Any one know how to do it?

[MCHinson]

For the past several years, I have arrived in Hershey on Tuesday and set up with some friends in the Chocolate Field early on Wednesday morning. This year sales were OK, but not quite as good as the past couple of years. There are quite a few vendors like me who sell through Friday evening and close up on Saturday. The reason for this is that Saturday is taken up by the car show. If showing a car, or judging, that makes it impractical to keep your swap meet space open on Saturday. On Saturday, as soon as I am finished judging, looking at some other cars in the show and visiting with a few friends, I am ready for the 8 hour drive home.

[peters180a/170b]

I did that for years.... MCHinson.....This is the first time in a long time i did not judge at Hershey. Judges breakfast at 7a.m. , putting the car on the field before 10:00 , judging ,,then getting back to my car , loading it in the trailer and then help putting all the parts away on the tables.We now have 1 person just selling parts right up to Saturday early afternoon and leaving Sunday morning. Worked out well this year..

[schalljo]

Jeff,
Hello, new to Hershey, have not been there yet, you indicate you sleep in your truck and able to cook, how do you do that, do they let you do that there? did you rent a space or in the parking lot?

Thanks

[KR500]

I made the trip this year after having been absent from Hershey for 28 years. It was great to be back and A LOT has changed. My first year my friend, father, and myself stayed with George Dammann of Crestline Publishing at his motel room and slept on the floor. Watching big Classics hauled from the mud by tractors and die hard part searchers sliding and falling in the mud, you knew you were with serious parts hounds. I also noticed the aging group of old timers who were dedicated, no matter how, to stumble along with their newly found and cherished part bungied to their walker, along with a happy look of satisfaction. The parking is now handled by Herco employees collecting $12.00 to park and barking orders of where to park. More porta potties, people on staff to keep them neat, more food vendors, and the great camaraderie of the car folks still makes it worthwhile. It isn't cheap to attend Hershey with $4.00 a gallon fuel, jacked up room rates and such, but Hershey is still the biggest. I also have attended Iola, Wisconsin for years and that also shows signs of aging. Maybe the old car hobby is declining because of cost of ownership of a car and the cost of restoring it.

[KR500]

I made the trip this year after having been absent from Hershey for 28 years. It was great to be back and A LOT has changed. My first year my friend, father, and myself stayed with George Dammann of Crestline Publishing at his motel room and slept on the floor. Watching big Classics hauled from the mud by tractors and die hard part searchers sliding and falling in the mud, you knew you were with serious parts hounds. I also noticed the aging group of old timers who were dedicated, no matter how, to stumble along with their newly found and cherished part bungied to their walker, along with a happy look of satisfaction. The parking is now handled by Herco employees collecting $12.00 to park and barking orders of where to park. More porta potties, people on staff to keep them neat, more food vendors, and the great camaraderie of the car folks still makes it worthwhile. It isn't cheap to attend Hershey with $4.00 a gallon fuel, jacked up room rates and such, but Hershey is still the biggest. I also have attended Iola, Wisconsin for years and that also shows signs of aging. Maybe the old car hobby is declining because of cost of ownership of a car and the cost of restoring it.

[Roadster62]

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Hershey is only a 4 hour drive for me and I haven't missed once since my first in 1969. Sure, things change, all the parts from 1969 are on cars or sitting on a shelf somewere. There will always be something to buy there, both keepers and items to flip on the internet (been there, done that), I enjoy the walking. Something I'd like to do if I had the funds is visit the other large flea markets around the country. Fly in, buy, fly home. Bob

[Super88]

I haven't been to Hershey, but I've been to my share of swap meets and I agree with the poster that stated the promoters should restrict the items sold to related items. I've been to too many swap meets where a lot of space is taken up by Beanie Babies and junk furniture. There are other venues for those kind of items. The Chief Blackhawk Chapter of the Antique Motorcycle Club of America restrict the items at their swap meet to antique motorcycle parts and it makes looking for something much more enjoyable.

[todd3131]

[Maybe the old car hobby is declining because of cost of ownership of a car and the cost of restoring it.] The old car hobby isn't decining it is changing, the first time I was in Hershey was 1969 and the spots were full of brass era parts and in the 80's it was thirtys cars. It is just changing I was at a collector car dealership and the general manager of it thinks that a early 90's corvette is a old car! He is selling later model Mustang and camaros for ridiculously stupid money that would but two or three model a's. When I was a kid and a old guy would come up and say he bought a model a new just like it and now some guy in his mid 70's will ask me what it is and then comment on some late 50's car he bought for 100.00. It is sad to see but that is the way it is the young crowd is wanting muscle cars or street rods because that is what they grew up with. I grew up with model a's and they will always be my first love but I have had quite a few affairs with other cars of one kind or another but I will never sell my roadster. To end the rambling the old car hobby is alive, well and evolving, and that is why Hershey is dying it isn't evolving to include the last 70 years of production.
Todd
Todd

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by tmiller6

I was back to Hershey this year after a three year absence. It always coincides with a meeting that I have to attend but this year I was able to break free.

What I noticed was all the empty spaces even on Wednesday and also many on-field parking lots where there was not so much as a card table with parts. I also noticed many people on electric scooters, Segways, and even a hybrid which consisted of a running Honda generator cooled by a desk fan placed in a wagon towed by an electric scooter. Another guy built a two wheel trailer for a standing passenger. Many of these operators whizzed by and acted like they had the right of way over foot traffic. I am guessing this is a consequence of all the fields being paved. I am not a doctor and will not comment on anyone's physical needs, I just was put off by having to dodge these drivers several times.

That guy with that hybrid vechicle was such a sham. He was set-up a few spots down from me. When he returned from parts gathering, he'd get off and walk around like nothing was wrong.

His set-up was also so obnoxious with that loud motor running at a high RPM into some type of gear reduction so he could creap around at a snails pace gauking at your parts.

You mean to tell me that you can afford to go to Hershey, but can't afford a battery for your oversized three-wheeled cart?

B.S. you lazy, sod!

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Steve Wastler

Great minds think alike, I have been thinking similar thoughts the last couple of years. Haven't been going as long as some of you, but I definitely remember the mud and unbelievable amount of brass in the late 70's. Met master restorer Walter Seeley, with his American Underslung. Oh, Hershey of the past! Fall Hershey and spring Carlise were the must go swaps. Haven't been to Carlise but once in the last 20 years, cause not much there for me. I will continue to go, hopefully for more than one day, and b*tch about the boobs with traffic control and parking, the motorized people movers that have taken over the last couple of years, and the unused spaces. Each year I still feel the excitement knowing I will see at least one spectacular thing I had never seen or may never seen again.

Mind you, I'm 41 and have been going to Hershey since I was 9. I love it and look forward to it each year. I've always said the worst day at Hershey always beats the best day at work.

I love taking in the sights and sounds of it. Hearing some of these old jems run is like music to my ears. Every year I chuckle seeing the guy who displays the old wheel with the tree grown into it. Walking around the car corral, I'm like a kid in a candy store making a mental "wish list" of cars I'd buy if I hit the lottery.

I too enjoy the "Hershey folk". Sometimes the sale of part turns into a really cool friendship with a like-minded person.

I too get frustrated with the changes I've noticed over the years. It takes a few months to forget about them and get jazzed up for next Oct.

With all of this in mind, approx. 5 years ago I asked around in hopes to search out and speak to one of the top guys in the Hershey branch on the AACA. Knowing a little about how to deal with the public, I did this on my first day there so I was still clean shaven and presentable.

I spoke in a non-confrontational way and really tried to impress upon the guy that it is folks like me who are the future of Hershey.

I first thanked him for his club's hard work in putting on this show year after year. I gave him a little history of long I've been coming. I believe I was also carrying around an flathead 2X2 intake set-up I just bought I my way to find the guy.

When I found him (I don't recall his name), I asked him the following questions:

1) Why is so hard to get a spot when there are so many open spaces?
2) Can't you put some type of rule in place that if you miss three years in a row, you lose your spot so others, who have parts to sell, can offer these at the swap meet?
3) Has there been any discussions on how to keep this great thing going since a lot of the guys that started it are getting older?

The guy couldn't have been more bothered by me and gave me a line of B.S. about this or that.
Maybe my timing was off and the show was occupying his thoughts. Granted, I'll give you that, but I wanted to do this in person and not over the phone.

He then inquired if I was a member of the Early V8 Club, said yep. Showed him my card. He backed off a little, but basically gave me the line how dare I question the Great Oz and this thing is going to last forever.

Shook his hand, thanked him for his time and walked away. Inside I was a little bent by his attitude and realized he is wrong and being very short sighted.

Fast forward to this year, even more empty spaces and even less parts around. One of the fields had an entire row open.

Folks, if anyone from the Hershey Region AACA is reading this thread, please implement some changes before the great institution of Hershey is lost to future car people interested in the hobby.

Sadly, the future is not with the long standing, older members of your club. It is with the younger guys and gals looking to get into their first Model A or early V8; regardless if it is a stocker or a hot rod. The end goal is the same: we all love old cars.

[ct1932ford]

Originally Posted by Deluxe Delivery

Hershey is what you want to make it. I arrive Tuesday morning and leave Saturday afternoon. In between I have the most fun a car guy can have. I love seeing all the people, old and young, talking to the foreigners (guests in our land), walking, and walking and walking. Treasures are everywhere and I enjoy the sights. I didn't notice the empty spaces at all, but then I am a "glass half full" kind of person. Yeah, the scooters are disturbing, but that is our society, not Hershey's fault. I see it as 5 days of sanity with "my people" and then a 360 day wait out in the truely insane world. I will go as long as my tired old body will let me, sleeping in my truck, cooking my own meals, and having the time of my life!

Well Said! Can't wait for 2013

[Midwest Tin]

Hi, Just think, only 49 weeks to go! Gotta love Hershey!
Jim

[Bill Underwood]

I love Hershey too and will go as long as I am able. At 65, I know it won't be as long as it has been! Somewhere in the thread I did see where someone complained about the assist scooters, etc. I see both sides of it and really did see some discourteous riders! But...........

I agree there are too many parkers and non-flea occupier; I may be a culprit too. I display, put my cell # on it and get lost in the hunt.

For me, the problem is we are just running out of stuff that I am interested in...early Ford and Model A. I realize there cannot be an endless flow of parts every year. As a matter of fact, I identify some vendors as arriving with exactly what they left with last year.

Time marches on! Like or not. But I will be there as long as able.

BU

[Roadster62]

That type of thinking will fit right in on the AACA FORUM, the late model people took over that Forum. The day that crap takes over the Hershey swap meet is the day trhe Hobby dies. Bob

Originally Posted by todd3131

To end the rambling the old car hobby is alive, well and evolving, and that is why Hershey is dying it isn't evolving to include the last 70 years of production.
Todd
Todd

[ronn]

Bob, the hobby is "dying". That is the point....

nothing stays the same forever.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by ronn

Bob, the hobby is "dying". That is the point....

nothing stays the same forever.

Not sure it's dying, but it needs new blood in. For example: I'm a guy who has collected a lot of parts over my short time in the hobby. Add another 100 or so guys that are like me, you'd breath so new life into some of those empty spots.

[ronn]

Tim, the old grey mare she ain't what she used to be....

fordgarage makes an xlnt point- the powers of the governments haven't helped in the cause,
only stifled the little fun that is being had out there. Time for a walk on the beach....

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

The ongoing 'actions' of the PA Department of Treasury have killed Hershey for me personally.
I did not object to collecting and submitting 'their' sales tax, but they have upped the ante considerably now against transient vendors and personal income taxes as well. Less impact to PA residents who presumably already file PA personal income taxes.

Any swap meet that leads to involving / opposing lawyers is doomed as far as I am concerned.

It is unlikely I will ever sell at Hershey again, and it is really not worth the time and expense of attending just to try and shop the remaining persecuted vendors.

and so it goes...

Yes, very good point.

What confuses me is why are taxes being collected on a used part? Weren't taxes already paid on this item?

How is it legal to tax it twice?

[ronn]

Tim, likewise how is it legal for the state of NJ or any other state to collect sales tax every time a car is sold? And at the bargain price of only 7%? Some model A's no doubt have been sold 20-30 times in their lives....
Government is ALWAYS broke-haven't you noticed?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

The ongoing 'actions' of the PA Department of Treasury have killed Hershey for me personally.
I did not object to collecting and submitting 'their' sales tax, but they have upped the ante considerably now against transient vendors and personal income taxes as well. Less impact to PA residents who presumably already file PA personal income taxes.

Any swap meet that leads to involving / opposing lawyers is doomed as far as I am concerned.

It is unlikely I will ever sell at Hershey again, and it is really not worth the time and expense of attending just to try and shop the remaining persecuted vendors.

and so it goes...

I think Vince is very 'spot-on' in his assessment as it mirrors my thoughts too. Like many other vendors, the hidden expense for me was too great to justify the participation as a professional vendor.

That did not stop me from attending as a buyer, and one thing that I commented about this year's show was I did not see many people carrying 'big-ticket' items they had found there. I can't help but think that if the show could have been held four weeks later after the election (no matter the outcome) that people would have been spending more money that was in their wallet. Therefore this year by itself may not be the benchmark by which future Hershey's should be judged against.

[Brewsterbuff]

I have been going to Hershey since the 1960s and flea marketing since the 1980s. Most of the time I don't take in enough money to pay the rent, but then I don't take much to sell. We take one of our three 1934 Brewster cars and go to get information about the company, owners and cars that still exist. We have located about 50 plus cars and most of our leads came from Hershey. We see other car buffs from all over the world, AND THEY ARE FRIENDLY AND A JOY TO VISIT WITH. You can't say that about Disney World or most any place else except a car show, if you are a car buff. We are in the Orange Field and it is not really a hot spot, but I don't think any of the others are that hot any more. Making the Orange Field a parking lot would not help me much if they gave me selling spaces in the Chocolate Field over by Chocolate World. I need my bathroom, refrigerator, bed, and security office AT MY SPACES. I do not need them on the other side of the world. I will continue to go as long as people stop and visit and I can continue to pay the rent.

[Birchwood]

This year was my first Hershey trip, actually it was my first model a swap meet. That being said I dont have the experience or the ability to compare from year to year. I am 51 so Im not a young man but I am new to model a restoration.

This month was my 12 year wedding anniversay and I convinced my wife this would be a great anniversary vacation and she agreed to make the trip.

After driving for about 10 hours I was hoping it would be worth it. We were there bright and early wed morning and I was in shock at the size and vast sea of parts and vendors. We had a great experience and my wife constantly commented about how nice and helpful the people were. I figured after the first day my wife would be ready to call it quits, but she was excited as I was. we stayed till friday and spent over 3 thousand dollars on parts and wares.

She is still talking about Hershey and is making plans for next year. I asked her what she was going to do if something happened between now and next year, I could get sick or die before then, she said "well I will go in memory of you".

So if I live and nothing Happens I will see you next year

[springerpete]

Jeff: The car coral was huge. It had a good collection of cars A to Z with prices quite high as well. I saw many things that I had not seen for many years so the walk was well worth it. I too was puzzled by the number of empty spaces in the sales fields as well as the packing up that started on Friday noon, but I have no idea what reasons folks had to do so. I did have a good time and will make a note for the future to do the sales fields first, coral second and then try and have rested legs for the Saturday show.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Birchwood

This year was my first Hershey trip, actually it was my first model a swap meet. That being said I dont have the experience or the ability to compare from year to year. I am 51 so Im not a young man but I am new to model a restoration.

This month was my 12 year wedding anniversay and I convinced my wife this would be a great anniversary vacation and she agreed to make the trip.

After driving for about 10 hours I was hoping it would be worth it. We were there bright and early wed morning and I was in shock at the size and vast sea of parts and vendors. We had a great experience and my wife constantly commented about how nice and helpful the people were. I figured after the first day my wife would be ready to call it quits, but she was excited as I was. we stayed till friday and spent over 3 thousand dollars on parts and wares.

She is still talking about Hershey and is making plans for next year. I asked her what she was going to do if something happened between now and next year, I could get sick or die before then, she said "well I will go in memory of you".

So if I live and nothing Happens I will see you next year

Man, it sounds like you hit the jack pot with your spouse. My wife is 100% supportive, just won't go. I would like her to experience it at least once.

I'll keep working on it.

[todd3131]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

That type of thinking will fit right in on the AACA FORUM, the late model people took over that Forum. The day that crap takes over the Hershey swap meet is the day the Hobby??y dies. B?,

bob crap is what they called non brass cars sixty years ago and did the hobby die? No and it is healthier now. You may not like it but you cant discount it post war autos are the future

[cabrioletgalaxie]

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For anyone who has walked Hershey it is understandable that riding a scooter gets the job done without the aches and pains. And lets face it gray or no hair car enthusiasts are older and hence the scooters. One might say the interest in the old cars may be waining, heaven forbid, but true. I understand years ago there were tons of brass cars around. Now look at the car corral and average the age of these cars. Much newer. I saw more brass parts on flea market tables than I did whole brass cars. Times change and think about the future when there will be Honda and Toyota parts for sale at the same tables. Enjoy it while it lasts folks. And finally look at Ford Barn where it doesn't cost anyone a dime to list and sell parts and you can do it in your jammies. I thought about that as I packed up neat Model A parts I brought all the way from Maine to Hershey, paid for 4 motel nights, ate out every nite and then drove back home, with half the parts I brought down to sell.
We all love the "sport" but we can both buy and sell parts more easily than going to Hershey. That being said, I'll be there next year!

[ken ct]

I have eliminated many shows from my scheduel and will continue to do Hershey and Ford nationals when less than a 1000 mi from home.The savings on gasoline for a Small Motor Home are a lot @ 10 MPG and saving on space fees also factors in. Most of my sales are from the FB and a lot of calls from repeat customers over the yrs. Many thanks from all you guys and see you at Hershey nxt yr.Local PO is less than a mile away.Life is good. ken ct. ken isidor getting tired and older every minute and slowing down.

[Terry, NJ]

I'm new to Hershey (1st 2009) but I've sold stuff all my life and when you're dragging too much home, you have to lower prices. We're in a bad (hell, lousy)economy and just can't pay big prices. I for one found very little of what I was looking for. Or to be more correct, I found very little that was at a price I could live with. I was looking for old tin for my 30 Briggs T.S. I found some, but one guy was so stupidly out of line I didn't even try to negotiate with him. It would have been too big a jump to move it into the reasonable zone. I succeed in getting two other guys totally ticked off at me when I told them what I thought the part was really worth. Hell I know that no matter how much money I save, I'm going to be upside down in this project. The question is By how much?
Since this is a non-specific rant, Another point I want to bring up is the lazy habit some sellers have of not pricing their items. It puts me off. Why? Because maybe I don't want to ask him or he's busy with someone else. Maybe he's gone for break and left his totally unknowing wife in charge and all I can get out of her is "He'll be right back!" Hershey's too big and there's too much to see to be waiting around for him. So vendors, Ya wanna do business? Make it easy for me to buy! Don't highball your grungy crap! Recognise Crap for what it is, Crap, and price accordingly. Most 80+ Y.O. parts have had a hard life and it takes a lot of work to restore them. Stop being lazy or sneaky by concealing the price to last minute, Write them down for all to see, including your wife/kids. I love Hershey, even the bad memories are good!
Terry

Originally Posted by cabrioletgalaxie

For anyone who has walked Hershey it is understandable that riding a scooter gets the job done without the aches and pains. And lets face it gray or no hair car enthusiasts are older and hence the scooters. One might say the interest in the old cars may be waining, heaven forbid, but true. I understand years ago there were tons of brass cars around. Now look at the car corral and average the age of these cars. Much newer. I saw more brass parts on flea market tables than I did whole brass cars. Times change and think about the future when there will be Honda and Toyota parts for sale at the same tables. Enjoy it while it lasts folks. And finally look at Ford Barn where it doesn't cost anyone a dime to list and sell parts and you can do it in your jammies. I thought about that as I packed up neat Model A parts I brought all the way from Maine to Hershey, paid for 4 motel nights, ate out every nite and then drove back home, with half the parts I brought down to sell.
We all love the "sport" but we can both buy and sell parts more easily than going to Hershey. That being said, I'll be there next year!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Terry's right on about pricing items. I often assume if it isn't priced, it's because the seller is affraid to show the high price, and I'll walk on by.

Also, Hershey's too big to OPEN LATE, and CLOSE EARLY, like so many do.

Terry's also right about Hershey is too big to wait around for the husband that "will be right back", which usually turns into an hour or more.

[Bill Underwood]

As to state sales tax: I live in TN. We have what is commonly called the "Girl Scout Cookie Law" whereby if a vendor comes into the state and sells one time a year, sales are exempt. Guess PA doesn't like the GSA? Or Hershey vendors!

BU

[peters180a/170b]

We should be exempt ! How many of us go out and eat over 3 or 4 days and 2 or 3 meals.. TAX ...Our hotels ..TAX.. i fill up on gas before i leave ..TAX.. and now P.A. makes me a TAX COLLECTOR.... What if i lose 1 day out of 4 due to rain ???do i get to right it off??? fee for the spot ??? travel expenses , like gas , toll , hotel ??? and if i don't make money to cover all,,,,,do i then have a right to claim a loss ??? TO P.A. Is there a accountant in the house??? l.o.l

[1931 flamingo]

IN CT "we" tax labor on a repair order or service call. Great state.
Paul in CT

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

Objective is not only to make you a sales tax collector for them, but also an income tax payer to them.
After all, you did profit from those parts you sold and collected the sales tax on, right?
No?, I don't believe you. Prove it to us. Open your books.

Ah, beauty of cash sales. How much did you make?

Nuthin'.

What?

Yep, nuthin'. No register, no credit card slip, no nuthin'. Go pound salt, bean counter!

[peters180a/170b]

Well i can say for one thing and i don't know about you all but this is the first flee market which tells you to collect TAX and makes sure you have a record book. Up around here there are some nice size flea markets and no tax collecting. Next thing the Government will drive around looking for Garage sales to see if you collect taxes...

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Ah, beauty of cash sales. How much did you make?

Nuthin'.

What?

Yep, nuthin'. No register, no credit card slip, no nuthin'. Go pound salt, bean counter!

But therein lies the problem Tim because that mindset causes a person to blantantly tell a lie to cover up the truth, ...which then lowers our social status to be on the same level as a Politician!

(yeah, I know!! just consider it a generalized joke)

In all seriousness, hasn't there always been something negative about attending Hershey? (Weather, mud, prices, lack of lodging, empty spaces, etc.) Some things do change in time for the better and with all the negative aspects, some of us still make it a priority to attend. See y'all next year!

.

[Kevin in NJ]

PA is not the only place that wants their share. In NJ I know more than one flea market vender had their merchandise impounded because they did not have a sales tax number.

Every state has their good points and their bad. Generally you handle the sales tax like part of doing business. You have to send them something knowing they can never really check you out. PA has pushed the envelope by requiring large businesses to file complex returns in their state and opening up their profits to taxes in PA and their home states. This is a big negative for Hershey- coupled with Ebay it has cut down Hershey from the Mecca it once was.

[wrndln]

I was at Hershey this year. I sold two items. Now I have to pay PA sales tax on them! I was told that if the sale tax is over $75, you have to file quarterly estimated payments - a real pain. Also of note, the fellows in the swap space I was with said a couple of state Dept of Revenue people were walking around spot checking for sales tax. The fellows said they wanted to talk to the person next to us, but he was out "shopping". I was also out looking for parts, so I didn't see the state DOR people I was told about. It is a sad situation that PA is so desperate for money they have to send their agent snooping around to try to extract sale tax on stuff that was already taxed previously. When will it end! As mentioned earlier, you have to have a sale tax id number to get a swap space at Hershey and of course PA expects you to pay sales tax on everything you sold.
Rusty Nelson

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Sellers should NOT be taxed since they are contributing to the "RECYCLING EFFORT!" Bill W.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

But therein lies the problem Tim because that mindset causes a person to blantantly tell a lie to cover up the truth, ...which then lowers our social status to be on the same level as a Politician!

(yeah, I know!! just consider it a generalized joke)

In all seriousness, hasn't there always been something negative about attending Hershey? (Weather, mud, prices, lack of lodging, empty spaces, etc.) Some things do change in time for the better and with all the negative aspects, some of us still make it a priority to attend. See y'all next year!

.

Hey, if you can't beat 'um, join 'em!

[lance leblanc]

Just like cell phones, I believe that the internet is the best and worse thing to happen to socity.

[Barry B./ Ma.]

And it looks like today a major storm is hitting there again. Last year our campground lost around 80 picnic tables when they were washed down the creek. I hope the new replacements are on high ground.

[Stretch Cab]

The government says, "You didn't build that flee market", so they want their share of the profits........................................... ...

[Tom Wesenberg]

Dean, with almost 6,000 views, it looks like you woke the dead.