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Old 02-07-2012, 03:16 PM   #21
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

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Originally Posted by PC/SR View Post
Herm: Were those bearings pressurized? Because without pressure they are not going to be adequately lubricated.
No Mr. P. C., they were not under Pressure. Herm.
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

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Herm that looks like sloppy job putting in those inserts. The rod bearing does not come close to covering the rod journal. The main inserts are off to one side, on the front and center one. probable would work, but I would not do it that way. It bet he did not clean it well either.
Your are right George, very sloppy Job.

I for got to say that the crank had been counter weighted, with a very silly weight system, and the crank was heavily Magnetized, that even by its self, made it doomed!

It also had that time saver slopped in the engine!
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:02 PM   #23
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

Herm,
Nice pics, thanks for sharing! Whew...I'm not an engine builder, but know that that ain't right (bearings installed that way). What a waste of time/money,eh.
Q- I've heard/read here where guys say that they install/run inserts WITHOUT full pressure and without negative results.....if the inserts are 'properly' installed and run without pressure and filter...in your professional opinion , can that be true?
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:12 PM   #24
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

I have only made a couple of attempts so far. Still needing more practice. No time or room to mess with the stuff right now. Shop is overstocked with NOS parts to the point I can not even work on the delivery. Unfortunately not much for NOS A parts. mostly late 30's through 70's stuff. Working my way back to sanity in the shop as fast as I can. Rod
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:25 PM   #25
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Forgot to mention I have a freshely rebabbited block here in the shop. I bought it at an estate sale last year. It was done locally by a guy with a good reputation. He passed away before he finished the engine. I also got lucky and purchased the rods he had set back for it, but did not find the pistons, cam or valves he supposedly had set back for the engine, so some work still remains to be done. It is bored .060 over and got some flash rust the day of the sale as it was raining lightly and the auctioneer did not have the common sense to put the engine inside. I might consider parting with it. PM me if you are interested. Thanks Rod
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:30 PM   #26
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Ok all back to my situation if you please, take a look at the pics....thanks again
mark
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:49 PM   #27
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

All i am going to say as i read all the post on here is [you can't make this shit up] .I am very great full of all the engine builders here with your input. Tells me i don't know jack shit... I took the easy way out.. Told the engine builder in P.A. i wanted inserts and a complete rebuild engine with all the upgrades and walked away ... Boy thanks to you guys i know somewhat what went on rebuilding my engine. 3 years and not yet 100 miles on the car....l.o.l. trailer Queen for another year.
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Old 02-07-2012, 05:12 PM   #28
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

((Quote))The second side of this is how the babbitt is poured. Is it burnished during the rebuild? I know there are folks that disagree with this task however it speaks of this operation at the factory and suggests that this was to be done by the rebuilder, thus I feel it is an important step in longetivity. If the crankshaft is undersized, the poured babbitt is thicker. If a large stack of shims is placed under the cap, then the babbitt is thicker by even more so. This is not good because the cap can walk and the soft metal (babbitt) is easily repositioned. If either one of these happens, then the effective life is shortened. Also, much depends on how the crankshaft has been machined. Inserts can mask a poorly machined crankshaft better than thick babbitt can. ((End Quote))

Brent, this whole Paragraph of yours is misinformation, and has nothing to do with Reality, and as long people keep putting it out there, I will keep contradicting with the truth!

First of all, trying to Burnish bearings, is about the worst thing you can to to a bearing. The process has nothing to do with your bearing alignment, it is all to do with wearing NEW bearings out through ignorance.

((Quote))this operation at the factory and suggests that this was to be done by the rebuilder (( End Quote))

This Quote of is also Misinformation, K.R. Wilson started making tools Ford in 1916 in the form of a Model T Transmission bushing reaming Jig. Shortly after that, he made all Fords rebuilding tool. I will let you read what he says on Burnishing , or in his words what they used to be called BURNING in, and for GOOD REASON!

The next thing, thickness of babbitt, and thickness of shims have nothing to do with any thing, except for what any given bearing needs, to rebuild it. To say thick babbitt, or thick shims are a weak spot for any bearing longetivity, that Idea, is plain ignorance.


Inserts can mask a poorly machined crankshaft better than thick babbitt can. ((End Quote))

Wow, where do you get these Idea's

Now for the K. R. Wilson coments!
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Old 02-07-2012, 05:23 PM   #29
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

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Herm,
Nice pics, thanks for sharing! Whew...I'm not an engine builder, but know that that ain't right (bearings installed that way). What a waste of time/money,eh.
Q- I've heard/read here where guys say that they install/run inserts WITHOUT full pressure and without negative results.....if the inserts are 'properly' installed and run without pressure and filter...in your professional opinion , can that be true?
A lot of engine builders use inserts without pressure. They still use the dipper splash system, and stock oil pump. Im getting a motor rebuilt right now by James Taylor in south texas. He uses A.E.R bearings and rods (still dipper rods) but he does pressurize the center main and use a high pressure oil pump. But the engine in our 4 door was built by rich at AER and it has a stock oil pump, no pressurized center main, and it still runs and sounds fine several thousands of miles later.
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Old 02-07-2012, 05:24 PM   #30
Kohnke Rebabbitting
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

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Originally Posted by hardtimes View Post
Herm,
Nice pics, thanks for sharing! Whew...I'm not an engine builder, but know that that ain't right (bearings installed that way). What a waste of time/money,eh.
Q- I've heard/read here where guys say that they install/run inserts WITHOUT full pressure and without negative results.....if the inserts are 'properly' installed and run without pressure and filter...in your professional opinion , can that be true?
I would think so, but as we don't do that, I only go by what other builders say. It always comes down to how good your Doctor is! Herm.
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Old 02-07-2012, 06:14 PM   #31
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

Well I am taking another try, to get the wilson reading on!

Last edited by Kohnke Rebabbitting; 02-07-2012 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 02-07-2012, 06:18 PM   #32
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

We will try to get on the K.R. Wilson post that didn't work before! Herm.
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Old 02-07-2012, 06:27 PM   #33
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

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Ok all back to my situation if you please, take a look at the pics....thanks again
mark
I wouldn't drive it much like that. That GOO may feel oily but it doesn't have very good lubricating properties. I'd pull the head and see what's going on. You might just have a blown head gasket. I changed a head gasket on a friends T-Bird recently that was running fine but had just enough of a leak to not hydraulic the cylinder but the watery blow-by into the crankcase was enough to cause that frothy goo. It'll wipe the bearings out in a hurry if you drive it like that.
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Old 02-07-2012, 06:47 PM   #34
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

[QUOTE=msmaron;359131]Ok all back to my situation if you please, take a look at the pics....thanks again
mark[/QUOTE)

Mark is right, water an oil is white. I don't know if you dropped the oil yet, but when you do, let the oil set over night, and screw the drain plug out slow, and keep holding it to the pan, and see how much water seeps out first, as it will all be on the bottom. Like the boys said, pull the head, and watch the gasket for a breach in the gasket seal, and clean it up good, use a shop Vac. to get all the crumbs, and check for cracks. Let us know what you found, and pictures, and we will guess from there. thanks, Herm.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:24 PM   #35
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

Mark,
You've managed to mix two questions into one thread. 1) Another engine and 2) Is my block cracked?

I'll start with the second Q. first- I think you are jumping to a panic driven conclusion. By the sight of all the antifreeze slobber by the edge of the headgasket in one of your pix, gasket failure is 90% likely the cause. Bite the bullet and concede you need to give up driving it for a couple weeks. Take it to Ken E.'s where you can pull the head, clean stuff up, and check for flat gasket surfaces and cracks.

Now Q.1- Having a 'spare' running A engine is always nice, even if you do not have immediate need. It gets you back up and running while your 'other' is lounging for weeks (months?) at a rebuilder.

My 2c- I wouldn't be the least bit concerned about the misdirected thinking that inserts need a pressurized supply for lube, or the thinking that the oil will only travel half way across the inserts. The primary function of oil pressure is COOLING the inserts. Unless something is seriously wrong, you'll never produce enough oil film loading to generate heat faster than it can conduct through the shells into the block or rods. An A is closer to a lawnmower than a Shelby Cobra.

Aside from Herm's trashed insert photos, how many other insert bearing failures have you seen? Fordbarn is absolutely loaded with babbitt failure stories and pictures. What is to be gleaned from Herm's post is the absolute need for cleanliness in a rebuild, and also the need for an oil filter during the first 1000 break-in miles. Keep in mind Brent's comment that rear main babbitt adjustment ain't easy with a weighted crank. That clearance maintenance is crucial to getting 50K on it. Inserts just need clean oil to go the distance.

If the JS ever evolve to the point somebody is stickin a proctoscope up your engine orifices your rebuild decisions may sway. 'Till then, you'll definitely enjoy having more than 40 horses to comfortably trek Woodstock to Woodfield traffic on a daily basis. Skip the Stipe 330. Try the 340 and 1.720 intakes with a HC head. Bill once stocked a 335 which I ran 'till I siezed up a piston that was fitted too tight (not by me!!) many years ago. That was a nice cam.

Last edited by MikeK; 02-07-2012 at 07:30 PM. Reason: Grammar correction
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:32 PM   #36
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

To find the leak,why not plug the overflow tube & pressurize the rad with abt 10 psi & with the pan off,you may see where its leaking.With the plugs out you could look in the cyls to see if any water there too.Could even be a crack in the upper part of the valve chamber. As for inserts vs babbitt,After almost 60 years of driving A,s Ive only had one brg failure.I was 30 miles from home when a rod brg suddenly let go.I was able to drive all the way home by useing light throttle & retarding the spark.There was hardly any babbitt left on the rod but the crank was not harmed.As for longevity of babbitt,I put over 75,000 miles on one A and no idea how many miles were on the engine before I got it. On my coupe Ive put 13,000 on it since I rebored it& replaced the valves lifters & timing gears.It is still running the original babbitt & I change the oil every 1,000 miles& dont add between changes.Still useing the original oil slinger.At 74,I dont think I will live long enough to wear it out.I always like to use old babbitt when ever possible,as I think it can be a crap shoot when you get a babbitt job done these days as there are not to many that can do the job properly.
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Old 02-07-2012, 08:49 PM   #37
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Are you guys distinguishing between insert jobs on both rods and mains vs. on rods only for needing a pressurized system? When we discussed inserts in an earlier thread a while back, I recall many guys not being pressurized when only the rods are inserted and having excellent performance and bearing life. And the tipping point for needing pressurization was when the mains are inserted along with the rods.

I just spent the big bucks getting AER inserted-rods installed by Schwalms. I pressed Ora hard on the need for pressurization because I was not about to spend that kind of money and have the inserts fail for lack of pressurization - especially when they fail so catastrophically. He maintains his very-experienced position that pressure is not needed when only the rods are inserted and the mains remain babbitted.

The hobby as a whole now seems to have accumulated a lot of experience with this configuration and Ora has done many engines this way with zero problems. So I took the leap of well-informed faith. I saw Kohnke's photos showing the results of dirt contamination and am doubly glad I have always run a full-flow oil filter. - Plus a good hi-volume air filter on the carb. (Road dust is NOT our friend.)

Kohnke: Curious: How did that much "dirt" (what kind?) get into that engine in the first place?

'Got about 3000 miles on the rod inserts so far in all kinds of operating conditions (except racing and mountain climbing!) and the old girl is as happy as can be. The car's doing really well too! (that was a joke...). I use Shell Rotella 15W40 motor oil with 500-mile changes for a belt-and-suspenders approach to babying my engine.

And always having gone only to Schwalms for all my engine and drive train work over the years is the rest of my "security blanket."
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Old 02-07-2012, 09:23 PM   #38
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

I have just tonight installed AER inserted rods in my B engine. I plastigaged them and they all checked out at .0015 clearance. I was very happy to see this. This is so much easier to work with than the babbitt that was failing one at a time. I lost # 4 babbit and had it redone with Ron's Machine shop and he did a very good job. Then Babbitt rod # 3 failed. Had to tear down again. This is when I decided to go to inserts. AER also rebuilt an A engine for me about a year ago with inserts. This is a very smooth running engine and I am very pleased with it.
Now, I have a question> If the clearance is the same .0015 as the babbitt clearance, why would there be a greater need for pressurized oil system? I would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks, much,
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Old 02-07-2012, 09:27 PM   #39
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Default Re: To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

Kohnke: Curious: How did that much "dirt" (what kind?) get into that engine in the first place?

I don't know Earle, I will call the machine shop tomorrow that sent me the pictures, and post a reply. Herm
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Old 02-07-2012, 09:41 PM   #40
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I am having a heck of a time posting. Posted and it did not show. Posted again and then both post showed up. I deleted second post because first one showed up. Now lost both posts again Frustration. I would like to know why it is important to pressurize with inserts when .0015 clearance is used for both babbitt and inserts. Appreciate any help on this.
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