To Babbit or Not To Babbit vs Inserted??

[msmaron]

Well folks looking into a NEW Engine, Not a rebuild, Getting a stipe touring cam, counter balanced crank, High Compression head. The question is weather to go with inserted bearing or Babbit.. Looking at 2 different scenarios and have heard many different opinions. I drive the car daily between 45-55 mph for about 35-45 min intervals at a stretch, to work and back. Drive in the cold or heat and all flat lands, no hilly areas in the midwest I have heard so many mind sets.. Babbit is softer like the crank, babbit will last 50K easy, babbit was what henry used and it workd, inserted will last forever. , inserted is the best and strongest....etc..>Now i a asking for some simple opinions here. What say many of you please

Thanks in advance....

[DBF 30]

Keep in mind that I am still a nubie here but I would not hesitate to go with inserts. Much stronger, durable and much, much easier down the road to do a futrue repair on. I have a 39 chevy that I am restoring and will be going with inserts. Inserts are what henry would have used if they had been available. It was his way, simple, strong and long lasting.
Thats my two cents. Let us know what you decide.

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by msmaron

.. Babbit is softer like the crank, babbit will last 50K easy, babbit was what henry used and it workd, inserted will last forever. , inserted is the best and strongest....etc..>Now i a asking for some simple opinions here. What say many of you please

Thanks in advance....

In a way, you just answered your own question. I see no reason to pay for a babbit motor when in many cases, you can get an inserted engine for cheaper, which will last longer. Sure if babbit is done right, it'll last a long time. But the problem is finding someone who is actually doing it right. I know of a very popular rebuilder that uses babbit, and he is "the best" but pours the babbit wrong resulting in alot of his bearings failing. People are paying 4-7k for a babbit motor when you can get an inserted for anywhere from 2500-7000. Just call Rich in Skokie and tell him what you want. If you're wanting to spend the serious money, call Ron Kelley. His engines are expensive, but are the best you can buy.

[James Rogers]

Inserted wont last forever, it is just like any other bearing, it depends on the care and maintenance it receives.

I don't know where you can get a motor with inserts cheaper than babbitt. Inserts cost more because there is more work and machining involved.

I agree that down the road the inserted motor is less cost since you don't have to find someone to pour babbitt. The inserted motor is just like any modern motor and can be repaired by any competent mechanic or shop.

[2935ford]

If more folks don't pick up the babbit torch....we'll have no choice but insert.

[gweilbaker]

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Mark,
You are close to Rich over in Skokie, He is straight up and can answer any questions and concerns.

Here's his stuff from his site;

STORE HOURS
Monday thru Friday 8:00am to 4:30 pm
Saturday 8:00am to12:00pm

ANTIQUE ENGINE REBUILDING

4835 LOUISE

SKOKIE, IL 60077

847 674 6716

INQUIRES INVITED

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by gweilbaker

Mark,
You are close to Rich over in Skokie, He is straight up and can answer any questions and concerns.

Here's his stuff from his site;

STORE HOURS

Monday thru Friday 8:00am to 4:30 pm
Saturday 8:00am to12:00pm

ANTIQUE ENGINE REBUILDING

4835 LOUISE

SKOKIE, IL 60077

847 674 6716

INQUIRES INVITED

With all due respect to Glenn and everyone concerned, Rich does not do babbitt, ....and is the manufacturer of aftermarket inserts and inserted rods, so in my mind his opinion would already be swayed towards inserts only. Maybe his opinion would be satisfactory anyway??


Second, Mark when you say you are looking into a new engine, are we speaking of Terry Burtz's "new" engine, a Donovan Model 'D' engine, or a NOS Model 'A' block?


My personal opinion (and what I tell my customers) is that alot of this depends totally on whether the engine will have a counterweighted crankshaft, ...and whether the engine owner has the ability to do his own mechanic work, --namely adjusting the bearing clearances. If the engine has a new Burlington crankshaft or an adequately counterweighted crankshaft, my experiences are that you cannot remove the rear main cap with the engine still in place. Therefore if the owner must pay for someone to remove the engine to adjust the babbitt clearances, then IMHO it is worth paying the upgrade for inserts simply because of the thinner layer of soft metal (babbitt) on the insert shell.

The second side of this is how the babbitt is poured. Is it burnished during the rebuild? I know there are folks that disagree with this task however it speaks of this operation at the factory and suggests that this was to be done by the rebuilder, thus I feel it is an important step in longetivity. If the crankshaft is undersized, the poured babbitt is thicker. If a large stack of shims is placed under the cap, then the babbitt is thicker by even more so. This is not good because the cap can walk and the soft metal (babbitt) is easily repositioned. If either one of these happens, then the effective life is shortened. Also, much depends on how the crankshaft has been machined. Inserts can mask a poorly machined crankshaft better than thick babbitt can.

I could go on and write a complete dissertation but I guess it all boils down to the initial comment about who is doing the rebuilding and which crankshaft you choose to use.

.

[Kevin in NJ]

Some facts:

Either type of bearing works great lasts a long time- IF they are done right.
A lot of engines are not done right.

If you have a babbitt failure it will fail slow and you might get many miles in a bad state. The crank and block are not likely to get damaged. You just rebabbitt and go.

Inserts tend to fail catastrophically and you will need to be towed home. The block and crank are more likely to be damaged and the block may not be repairable.

Now for some other thoughts.

The engine needs to be balanced. I am sure you have read my other posts by now. One area that is difficult is finding properly babbitted rods that are tightly matched in weight. Getting a set of all new rods set up for inserts would take care of this problem. Then use the babbitt on the block done by a shop that has a clue.

I would point you to talk to Herm and J&M Machine. They know what they are doing and have the tooling to do the job right. Call them and ask them what they think you should do. I think you will learn quite a bit.

[gweilbaker]

FYI, Rich has many years and experience doing babbitt, that's all he use to do. There are many of his babbitted mills running around the Milcago and the Chiwaukee area. I didn't know he went straight insert, I guess I should take my own advice a pay him a visit and find out why.

[Bruce Adams]

I wish I could help on your bearing type comparisons, but I CAN tell you I have about 3000 very satisfactory miles on my Antique Engine Rebuilding's inserted bearings engine with high compression head, balanced crankshaft, oversize valves, and "Touring Cam" permitting me to do 60 mph on the highway whenever I please, and climb hills with a smooth sounding engine and a stock rear end.

[1931 flamingo]

Mark: Whicheverway you go (I'm thinking inserts) I would want to see it and the f/wheel p/plate BALANCED. JMO
Paul in CT

[Dana Barlow]

inserted bearings are the way to go

[roadster31]

I have the KRW setup for Model A's, I have done quite a few engines all are still on the road. I use the KRW line boring bar to within .010 of the crank, take it to the local machine shop to have him set the thrust and finish the line bore. When I get the block back to the shop I clean it tighten the mains and do as Henry said "lube the mains with light machine oil and spin until it smokes freely" I don't spin it until it smokes but it gets prety hot. I use plastigage, then assemble the engine, I garuntee (sp?) the job for one year but only if it was balanced dynamicaly by my machine shop. At 5000 miles I have taken down a couple of mine, checked the clearance, in one engine I took out 1 shim on the rear main. Some day I will try the inserts, but it isn't cost effective for me at this time. I think babbitt is very good done correctly -- I don't think anyone does it like Henry. Regards, E LaBrash

[Tom Wesenberg]

Jeff, it wasn't a true REBUILD, but more of a light overhaul to get by until a late 31 block was found and rebuilt.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by roadster31

I have the KRW setup for Model A's, I have done quite a few engines all are still on the road. I use the KRW line boring bar to within .010 of the crank, take it to the local machine shop to have him set the thrust and finish the line bore. When I get the block back to the shop I clean it tighten the mains and do as Henry said "lube the mains with light machine oil and spin until it smokes freely" I don't spin it until it smokes but it gets prety hot. I use plastigage, then assemble the engine, I garuntee (sp?) the job for one year but only if it was balanced dynamicaly by my machine shop. At 5000 miles I have taken down a couple of mine, checked the clearance, in one engine I took out 1 shim on the rear main. Some day I will try the inserts, but it isn't cost effective for me at this time. I think babbitt is very good done correctly -- I don't think anyone does it like Henry. Regards, E LaBrash

Hey Elmer, why do you say that? Is it because of the speed in which they did it, or by them using a reamer instead? I personally think it can be duplicated if someone (such as yourself) uses the same babbitt composition make-up and takes the proper amount of time to go through all the steps however one cannot ommit steps and expect stellar results IMHO.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

AHH... OK.

I was going by memory, thought you guys did a complete re-build. Looked pretty good from the posts as I recall.

From reading all of the posts on this subject, it seems like it would be hard to decide exactly which way to go. If you did a lot of long distance touring, inserts? If you are like me and put less than 400-500 miles a year on a Model A, original babbitt? Babbitt (not Costello's friend) worked well all of these years. As someone else commented, the insert technology didn't exist during Model A's reign (at least in the low priced car field?) Our '36 Ford pickup has a 59AB flattie of course with inserts and pressurized, and I think nothing of running IT 55 MPH really buzzes along. With a higher rear-end it would be even better!!!

Hope Mark finds his late '31 block.

Jeff, they are inserts all right, but are babbitt lined inserts, and thick compaired to modern inserts. Some were also copper- lead, in which didn't work out to well the way I understand. As I here from other engine builders, some builders quit doing babbitt, and went to inserts, because they couldn't keep their babbitt jobs in. Anyway, the key to longevity with inserts in any motor is oil pressure, and Filtration. Here is what inserts look like when dirt goes through the bearings, less then a 100 miles, and as Kev says, it was towed home. Herm.

[PC/SR]

Herm: Were those bearings pressurized? Because without pressure they are not going to be adequately lubricated.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

AHH... OK.

I was going by memory, thought you guys did a complete re-build. Looked pretty good from the posts as I recall.

From reading all of the posts on this subject, it seems like it would be hard to decide exactly which way to go. If you did a lot of long distance touring, inserts? If you are like me and put less than 400-500 miles a year on a Model A, original babbitt?
Hope Mark finds his late '31 block.

PART 2 of the Situation
I drive about 5000+ Miles a year as mentioned.
Brent.. I mean i want to make an outright purchase of an engine, NOT rebuild my 29 engine that i presently have.
The reason i am in this position is this is what i have found in the oil return pipe. Pic 1 and 2 from the left.

Now when this was found I first added a bottle of the powdered BARRS to seal the head gasket, that helped,. Then drained the oil, added motor flush 4 quarts of oil, and blew out the pan with air pressure. Drove yesterday for about 40 minutes and came home.. Checked all and THIS IS WHAT I FOUND. Pics 3 and 4,.
Actually a white foamy build up in the oil pipe..
With that said and tested, my opinion is that i might have a cracked block.. this is the reason for the engine and NOT A rebuild...Your opinions please.

[George Miller]

Herm that looks like sloppy job putting in those inserts. The rod bearing does not come close to covering the rod journal. The main inserts are off to one side, on the front and center one. probable would work, but I would not do it that way. It bet he did not clean it well either.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

WOW Herm. Holy cow!!

Those bearings look like they have over 100,000 miles plus of hard use, not 100 miles.

Thanks for the post. It occurs to me with your pics that sometimes there is no 'best way' or 'this way is better than original'.

So does the new Burlington crankshaft like Babbitt OK, or do you have to go inserts with this crank?? Sorry if this sounds dumb I'm not a machinist only got the interest as they say......

Jeff, any crank would be OK, but remember that there was dirt that went through the bearing, and while babbitt, I beleave, would have taken it better, it was just a matter of time. Herm.