What would the judges say about this?

[Steve Wastler]

I too agree with most, probably was not done at the factory, and as others have stated with an 80+ year old car, you have no way of knowing what was done to it over the years and by whom or for what reason. I think this would be hard to prove it was factory for varience purposes, with that said, it most likely would still be considered incorrect. JMHO, It has made an interesting thread, though....Gonna make me go out and look at my crossmembers.....

[Steve Plucker]

I to agree with RonC...

IF this frame was an actual RHD frame, which it appears to be due to the placement of the holes on top of the center cross member for the early braking system...just what other tell-tale items, besides the hole on the right side frame member for the steering column, if in fact it is there, would there be?

Also...IF THIS WAS AN ORIGINAL RHD VEHICLE...On the top right side frame member, just back from where the brake and clutch pedals would protrude from the bell housing, there should be two (2) holes for which the STOP LIGHT SWITCH was bolted to the right frame side member top side. Are those holes there?

Can you detect anything, if there is a hole for the RHD steering column, if in fact that one was attached there at one time...bolt or nut marks???

It very well could be that the original vehicle, when it came off the assembly line, was an actual RHD car or light commercial vehicle.

If this RHD vehicle was sitting at the dealers and they wanted to convert it to an LHD by making the necessary changes, it would stand to reason that instead of getting a whole new frame, that the hole was cut then to make way for the LHD set-up.

True, a lot of items would of had to be swaped out before it was sold to John's family to make the conversion from RHD to LHD. However I think the original engine could still be used.

The engine/frame number indicate either a November 30, 1928 or a December 3, 1928 stamped engine and well into the time period when the new brake system was in play.

It would be interesting to note the Assembly Code on the body AND if in fact there is a date on the gas tank.

If in fact the dealer used the original body for the conversion, I would think that there would be some major work down at the lower end of the cowl section...if not, then whatever was on the frame as a RHD body, was swaped out to make way for the LHD body.

I agree with most that I do not believe that the "hack job" was done at the factory but at the dealer BEFORE the sale of the vehicle.

I know of one instance where that happened...MR. RON RUDE...where are you? However in this instance, just the LHD bodies were swaped out...I think that is how it went.

Those are my thoughts for what ever they are worth.

Pluck

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

I am no expert (far from it) but I don't even see this as being a right hand frame. It looks like an early frame that had the 4 wheel service/parking brake system that had all that system removed and modified for the later style. This was probably done at a dealers or by a local mechanic for the original owner. Easy to do without lifting the body. Maybe the dealer was too high priced for the job and the local mechanic was lower priced even though he used a torch instead of a hole saw.

Jim,

Look closely at the top of the center cross member...the position of the holes for the early service brake cross shaft assembly are in the wrong spot to be an LHD...it has to be an RHD frame...yes...no???

Pluck

[John Stone]

I don't have access to the car for a few days. The owner's wife is having knee surgery even as I type. I will get some more pictures of the body, body number and gas tank date. Are there any other requests for other pictures that might shed some light?

I did notice in my first picture that there are 2 holes on the RH frame rail top that appear to be about right to mount the brake light switch and I remember that the steering column mount holes are there but they were there for all the frames I believe. I just went to a cold garage, crawled under my 29 Roadster and the 2 holes are on top of the frame. Must have been standard to do that for all cars.

Thanks for all the comments. This has been an interesting thread. It might go on for a few more posts after I get the new pictures.

[85930tudor]

John I dont know what happened...I missed that day lol...I have 3 frames out back will go check them. A perplexing hole it is

[Steve Plucker]

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Originally Posted by John Stone

I don't have access to the car for a few days. The owner's wife is having knee surgery even as I type. I will get some more pictures of the body, body number and gas tank date. Are there any other requests for other pictures that might shed some light?

I did notice in my first picture that there are 2 holes on the RH frame rail top that appear to be about right to mount the brake light switch and I remember that the steering column mount holes are there but they were there for all the frames I believe. I just went to a cold garage, crawled under my 29 Roadster and the 2 holes are on top of the frame. Must have been standard to do that for all cars.

Thanks for all the comments. This has been an interesting thread. It might go on for a few more posts after I get the new pictures.

If in fact the hole for the RHD sterering column is there, then more than likely those two holes for the brake light switch will be there also.

Those holes were deleted about January 1930.

Pluck

[d.j. moordigian]

The frame rails will work for both LHD and RHD in 28......correct.
The center cross member, makes it LHD or RHD.....correct.

Look at all the STUFF you have to change to go from LHD to RHD, gas tank
included......that's a monumental undertaking, even in a Ford dealership, back
in 1928/1929!

Dudley

[d.j. moordigian]

rustrim,

The cross member(center) is not symmetrical, front to back. It can only
go in one way.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by John Stone

Just a couple thoughts about the judging. In San Diego, a 1929 Hunting bus and a 1927 Delivery were awarded MARC of excellence in the Fine Point Judging, not in the Touring class or Modified class. And yes, I have had a car judged in the Fine Point Class but it has been a few years so I know how it works.

And what is your point on this.. they were done factory correct.. What are you stating?? and if you know how fine point works that you know you would be docked for your setup on the undercarriage, you also seem to be VERY VERY Aggressive in all your comment on your post, YOU asked a question and rather than look at what has been told to you by some very knowledgeable persons your on the defensive with everything.. What is your point for that,. we are here at Ford Barn to help in any way....

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by msmaron

And what is your point on this.. they were done factory correct.. What are you stating?? and if you know how fine point works that you know you would be docked for your setup on the undercarriage, you also seem to be VERY VERY Aggressive in all your comment on your post, YOU asked a question and rather than look at what has been told to you by some very knowledgeable persons your on the defensive with everything.. What is your point for that,. we are here at Ford Barn to help in any way....

I do not think John is being "VERY VERY Aggressive" in anything...He is just trying to come up with answers and understand in his own way. One question might lead to another question or thought by him.

Anyway, John...hopefully we have given you some things to think about and if you have any more questions, ask away.

Pluck

[Tom Wesenberg]

This is a real "who dunit" mystery!

It's got my brain smoking also, but so far I agree that it must have been done outside the factory. So far the only thing I can see for sure is that the center crossmember started life as a RHD.

[Bob C]

If it was a RHD cross member installed by mistake the chassis ,or whole car for that matter, could have been completed by leaving the brake rod off. As Rustyrim said it
could have been fixed later in another area of the plant.

Bob

[quickchange]

As you can with attached pictures the LHD X Shaft & the RHD X shaft are differant, The frames appear the same with off set brake rod hole, Now if on the assembly line there was a switch from LHD vehicles to RHD vehicles & im not sure if & when this happened , the person grabed a RHD brake X shaft turned it around so as it fitted LHD frame , it would fit BUT when the next person went to fit the rod of course with the arm on differant angle it would not line up hence the hole had to be altered. This of course could also happened at a dealer or service centre ,
The frames appear the same as have both here But not all the same years so maybe some differances, With 29-early 30.s drill for steering box on both sides .
My bet is mix up with brake X shafts at some stage but at what stage ??
Maybe RHD has better pictures. Derek from A heaven

[d.j. moordigian]

The hole in the frame for the rod, from the brake pedal, through the center cross
member. Is that hole in the same location for a 3 piece brake system as the late
version?

I would answer this my self, but all I have is e-28s.

[RonC]

John, Does the frame number match the engine number and is there a letter(s) prefix to the number? ie "A"

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by RonC

John, Does the frame number match the engine number and is there a letter(s) prefix to the number? ie "A"

To add to RonC question...Is the engine number the ORIGINAL STAMPED ENGINE NUMBER OR IS THE ENGINE A RESTAMP WITH THE SAME NUMBER AS THE FRAME?

If you are wondering what a "restamp" engine number is, it is one where the original number was ground off the engine number pad and restamped...the restamp pad should be very smooth where the original number pad has the same texture as the rest of the block.

Pluck

[John Stone]

It is the original engine. Not a restamp and it matches the frame. The car has 42,000 miles and was sold new in Howard Kansas. That is one to find in your Atlas.

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by John Stone

It is the original engine. Not a restamp and it matches the frame. The car has 42,000 miles and was sold new in Howard Kansas. That is one to find in your Atlas.

Howard, Kansas huh?...That means then that the dealership was within the Kansas City Ford Assembly Plant sales area (see my website under Bill of Sales and Assembly Plants), and I bet, hopefully, that you will see a KC stamp on the body!???

Hmmmmmm...By the way...did we determine just what kind of a body it has?

Pluck

[Tom Wesenberg]

John Stone and WardAZ I'm just wondering what your E-brake handle is? Is it the early pistol grip, or is it the push button type.

[John Stone]

It is a Special Coupe.

E-brake handle is shown in the first pictures. It is the squeeze type.