What would the judges say about this?

[John Stone]

Center cross member as installed at the factory and then modified at the factory.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Well, it has been my experience that the game of Judging is played two ways. First off, the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Stds are written as a method that most closely outlines how the engineers (and ultimately Henry) wanted each vehicle to be assembled/built. Granted there were deviations made by the workers on some vehicles however just like runs in paint or other anomalies, those were not the proper protocol in what was expected. Therefore for the purpose of adjudication, the guideline that is included in the book is what is expected to be assembled. Second, there is always the possibility of lattitude to be given when a proper varience is submitted to the JSC documenting this modification and why it was done. Sometimes variences are given and other times they are not.

Outside of this above, it is your vehicle and restore it however you deem appropriate where you will be the most happy as you are the ultimate "Judge".

,

[Marco Tahtaras]

How did you reach the conclusion the hack job was done by ford? What is the frame number?

[Steve Plucker]

Originally Posted by John Stone

Center cross member as installed at the factory and then modified at the factory.

Maybe the frame was originally built for a Right Hand Drive???

Pluck

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

How did you reach the conclusion the hack job was done by ford? What is the frame number?

Engine/frame number is 697,xxx. I know the history of the car back to the late 20's early 30's. This is the first time the body has been off the frame thus it had to have been done at the factory. The original owner was the Great-aunt of a good friend of mine who has passed away. He was going to restore it. He and his dad repainted it in the early 70's but didn't even remove the fenders. Speedometer show 42,000 miles.

You are right, it is a hack job but using logic, the only way it could have happened was on the assembly line. Either the wrong cross member was installed or it was a RH drive that was later decided to be made LH.

[George Miller]

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Originally Posted by John Stone

Engine/frame number is 697,xxx. I know the history of the car back to the late 20's early 30's. This is the first time the body has been off the frame thus it had to have been done at the factory. The original owner was the Great-aunt of a good friend of mine who has passed away. He was going to restore it. He and his dad repainted it in the early 70's but didn't even remove the fenders. Speedometer show 42,000 miles.

You are right, it is a hack job but using logic, the only way it could have happened was on the assembly line. Either the wrong cross member was installed or it was a RH drive that was later decided to be made LH.

It could have been done at the dealership, they may not have been told. I worked in a Ford dealership in 1956 and part of 57. They did not tell the customer more than they need to know.

[peters180a/170b]

Marco is right about asking the question on Hack job was done by FORD?? I was called in on helping with a 180A restoration for Fine point judging. Same story , My Aunt bought this NEW and never left the town.Then my Uncle got it in the mid 50's and did a paint job on it for show. I was called in about 75% of the restoration was done. All i heard at first was this car was never done other then the paint job. The parts on this car and the body i would die for. Straight , stainless steel parts perfect , right down to the correct side mirror. But things were done over the years that did not look correct. I just said OK , its your car and you say it was not ever messed with... I leave it at that.. When it comes to a BRIGGS built car , all bets are off... i had a few changes in question and i had to change some of the few to meet the standards.. But i think some of us have been there and back...

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by George Miller

It could have been done at the dealership, they may not have been told. I worked in a Ford dealership in 1956 and part of 57. They did not tell the customer more than they need to know.

I don't believe a dealer would have changed the center cross member or replaced the frame without someone in the family knowing it. The cost would have been high.

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Marco is right about asking the question on Hack job was done by FORD?? I was called in on helping with a 180A restoration for Fine point judging. Same story , My Aunt bought this NEW and never left the town.Then my Uncle got it in the mid 50's and did a paint job on it for show. I was called in about 75% of the restoration was done. All i heard at first was this car was never done other then the paint job. The parts on this car and the body i would die for. Straight , stainless steel parts perfect , right down to the correct side mirror. But things were done over the years that did not look correct. I just said OK , its your car and you say it was not ever messed with... I leave it at that.. When it comes to a BRIGGS built car , all bets are off... i had a few changes in question and i had to change some of the few to meet the standards.. But i think some of us have been there and back...

I agree there are a few things about the car that had been changed over the years but the center cross member????? To me it goes against logic. I helped lift the body off the frame and saw the weird thing.

[d.j. moordigian]

Unless I wrong,the frame number is about right for the brake under the cross
member.

Also, looking at the bell housing, is it a multi-disc clutch?

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Unless I wrong,the frame number is about right for the brake under the cross
member.

Also, looking at the bell housing, is it a multi-disc clutch?

Yes, it is a multi -disc clutch. It also has 2 stamped running board braces and 2 forged. Be a neat car to restore but it won't happen in my garage.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by John Stone

I don't believe a dealer would have changed the center cross member or replaced the frame without someone in the family knowing it. The cost would have been high.

I'm sorry I though we were talking about the butcher jod where the brake rod goes into the cross member. Cross member is probably right.

I should know better than to try to help.

[peters180a/170b]

As i walk around Hershey every year a black guy with hair that he as not washed for years and just as long selling some old motorcycles and OLD CAR WRECKS...Back then like my 170b had a hit in the front frame and now with a slight bend. No biggie but back then [like 1930/31 thru 36 and maybe later it was no real deal to change bodies with frames... who knows what happened ..it could of fell off the delivery truck... when new??? and then fixed and then sold as new...

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

As i walk around Hershey every year a black guy with hair that he as not washed for years and just as long selling some old motorcycles and OLD CAR WRECKS...Back then like my 170b had a hit in the front frame and now with a slight bend. No biggie but back then [like 1930/31 thru 36 and maybe later it was no real deal to change bodies with frames... who knows what happened ..it could of fell off the delivery truck... when new??? and then fixed and then sold as new...

If it fell off a delivery truck in Kansas I doubt if they would shipped in a RH drive frame to fix it.

[d.j. moordigian]

The brake rod hole in the frame? Factory job or Dealer clean-up is interesting and
I'm sure it's possible. Let's use up All the spare parts......correct?

But the clutch, that late in 1928....I don't understand.

John, were was the car built?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

The one other thing in all of this that I find making this difficult to believe is two obvious issues:

A) Based on photos and media depicting the assembly lines times each task was to take, the shear length of time to do that modification versus the alloted time they had would have made this almost impossible to do at the factory without creating a mess.

B) And, just where along the assy. line would they have had an oxy/acetylene torch and the other tools required to do this? There would not have been a reason to have a torch in the area in which the brakes would have been installed. Therefore a torch would not have been a tool seen on the line.


To me, it really isn't even plausible in my mind how they could have stopped the assembly line, ran over to the tool crip and requisitioned a torch to take back to the assy. line to do this mod. Also, there would not have been a way the workers could have "set it off to the side" and let other chassis' go on down the line while they decided how they were going to make this modification.

When someone stops and takes in the entire picture of how these vehicles were made and assembled, even stopping the assy. line for 5 minutes to do this would have had upper management screaming for answers, ...and when they found out this was done w/o the engineer's approval there is no way in Hades they would have ever let something like this go out the factory door!! Am I wrong??

.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

When someone stops and takes in the entire picture of how these vehicles were made and assembled, even stopping the assy. line for 5 minutes to do this would have had upper management screaming for answers, ...and when they found out this was done w/o the engineer's approval there is no way in Hades they would have ever let something like this go out the factory door!! Am I wrong??

.

I agree completely. Additionally, even the the most incompetent guy on the line could have at least put the hole in the correct location by eye being surrounded by examples. In reality they would have simply pulled it from the line if it made it that far. I would have expected that the car began life as a RHD model.

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

The one other thing in all of this that I find making this difficult to believe is two obvious issues:

A) Based on photos and media depicting the assembly lines times each task was to take, the shear length of time to do that modification versus the alloted time they had would have made this almost impossible to do at the factory without creating a mess.

B) And, just where along the assy. line would they have had an oxy/acetylene torch and the other tools required to do this? There would not have been a reason to have a torch in the area in which the brakes would have been installed. Therefore a torch would not have been a tool seen on the line.


To me, it really isn't even plausible in my mind how they could have stopped the assembly line, ran over to the tool crip and requisitioned a torch to take back to the assy. line to do this mod. Also, there would not have been a way the workers could have "set it off to the side" and let other chassis' go on down the line while they decided how they were going to make this modification.

When someone stops and takes in the entire picture of how these vehicles were made and assembled, even stopping the assy. line for 5 minutes to do this would have had upper management screaming for answers, ...and when they found out this was done w/o the engineer's approval there is no way in Hades they would have ever let something like this go out the factory door!! Am I wrong??

.

OK, how and why do you think the modification was made???? This is not a figment of my imagination. It is a real thing.

I believe it was set aside and "fixed" and then put back on the line. Engineering paperwork probably existed at one time as a one time thing. That's what we used Engineering Liason for at Learjet.

[John Stone]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

The brake rod hole in the frame? Factory job or Dealer clean-up is interesting and
I'm sure it's possible. Let's use up All the spare parts......correct?

But the clutch, that late in 1928....I don't understand.

John, were was the car built?

The body was in a dark place and I couldn't make out the number on the body cross member. When it gets moved I can find out. The JS says the multi-disk clutch was changed in October 28 but to allow 90 days for everyplace to make the change.

[mot]

pretty tough to take off the assembly line at this stage