Can you run an A wide open?

[Special Coupe Frank]

[QUOTE=MrTube;35764]Here in NJ you'll see 55-65 in right lane, 75+ in center lane and 85+ in left lane on most major highways such as the garden state parkway and 287.

Honestly I don't mind the speeds people drive, what I do mind is they feel its necessary and safe to drive 1 car length away from the person in front of them doing these speeds. I've constantly seen 5+ car accidents because everyone was following 5 or 10 feet from the car in front of them going 75+ and the front person had to stop fast.

The even more amazing thing is people will drive past an accident like this, and then resume doing the same exact thing!!!!

I'll admit, i'm 29 and have a lot to learn in life. But I had enough near death accidents on ATV's long before I was old enough to drive a car to realize how fast things happen when your doing in excess of 65mph. Things happen literally in a blink of an eye.

I think modern cars make people feel to safe when they really are not. People need to realize just how fast 1 mile a minute truly is.[/QUOTE]


You mean, people should think about what they are doing, consider the consequences, and take responsibility for their actions ????

Modern society is becoming increasingly detached from the activities of everday life ( everything is passive, done for us at the touch of a button, click of a mouse..)... we don't have to THINK about what we are doing; and therefore, we don't.

More and more, we ( the nice polite, "sane", thoughtful people) have to watch-out for "the other guy" who is oblivious to everything and everyone around him / her.

The other aspect of driving a Model A ( or other vehicle from that era) in modern traffic and/ or at high speeds is that our cars offer very little in the way of crash-protection... if we are driving along at the posted speed limit ( say 55 mph ) and some distracted driver in a late-model Volvo ( or other highly safety-rated vehicle of your choice ) plows into us, "everyone loses", but chances are, the occupants of the newer car walk away, or go to the hospital to be treated for relatively minor injuries. The occupants of the vintage car are much more likely to suffer mortal injuries.

It's kind of like being in a jousting match without any armor, having a stick for a lance, and a stick-horse instead of a beefy charger... the other guy is going to destroy you ! ( Sorry - don't know where the heck that analogy came from... too much Monty Python, I guess )

I'm not about to stop driving my antiques, nor do I wish to "take all the fun out of it" for anyone else... but when we talk about running the A wide-open, there's a little more to it than just "not blowing-up the engine"...

Modern cars are technological wonders; modern drivers ( for the most part ) stink.

Be careful out there...

[Larry Brumfield]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

If the traffic on your inter-states are usually 20-30 MPH over posted you should charge the overseers with malfeasance and demand they bring traffic under control. Why do we pay taxes?

Mr. Franklin, that's exactly right.

On the interstate, whether it is congested or not ..... the right lane is for the slower drivers and people are supposed to respect it!! ... slow being a little over 50 to about 65 in Texas.

Moreover, even on the so called milk-route you run the risk of some baggy-pant moron with his hat on sideways, high on dope or half drunk, running into the back of your A. These idiots are everywhere! .... even on the interstate and many are not kids either.

Competing with modern traffic speeds is one of the reasons why the A is so appealing to so many. If your A is not up to par then fix it or upgrade it so it will be. OR, stay on the milk-route with your eye glued to the rearview mirror instead of watching for the possible cows, dogs, cats, deer, skunks, armadillos (TX), 'possums, people, etc. that are often in or run across these roads. Of course since you're driving so slow maybe you can stop..... as long as there are no morons following too close behind you.

Just my opinion.

Larry B.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Larry Brumfield

Moreover, even on the so called milk-route you run the risk of some baggy-pant moron with his hat on sideways, high on dope or half drunk, running into the back of your A. These idiots are everywhere! .... even on the interstate and many are not kids either.

You forgot to mention they typically drive reclined in the seat so they can barely see over the wheel and sit leaned over towards the middle of the car, don't really know whats going on and they like it that way.

[Larry Brumfield]

Originally Posted by MrTube

You forgot to mention they typically drive reclined in the seat so they can barely see over the wheel and sit leaned over towards the middle of the car, don't really know whats going on and they like it that way.

Mr. Tube, that's called "diggin' the scene with the gangster lean"

It is only appealing to other morons and low-lifes with like mind.

Larry B.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Mr. Tube, that's called "diggin' the scene with the gangster lean"

It is only appealing to other morons and low-lifes with like mind.

Larry B.

Back in the late '50s we called that "riding slick" on the North Side of Minneapolis!

[skip]

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When driving too slow, the closing rate is a killer. Watch the movie LeManns for an excellent discussion about running fast cars and slow cars at the same time on the track...

skip.

[Bill Steiner]

I would not run it that way. Bill

[George Miller]

If you ran a new car for long periods of time wide open it would not last.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Larry Brumfield

As mentioned in my post above, even Henry Ford implied that one should not run the Model A wide open, i.e., 65 miles an hour as in road tests.

Now do any of you think that Henry Ford himself would have made a statement about comfortable driving at 50 to 60 miles an hour if the Model A was going to throw rods or come apart? ....

Naturally, if your Model A has thicker babbitt and a crankshaft ground down so many times it's about like a toothpick, OR high mileage with shims removed OR unknown condition of bearings from a lot of use, it's best to putt putt 45 in your Model A.

BUT, as it was when Henry made it, the Model A was made to run! Wouldn't Ford have lost his credibility if the Model A engines had come all apart shortly after purchase.... "Sorry, you shouldn't have gone over 45."

The crankshaft whipping and worn out center main didn't happen overnight either. People drove them for miles with no problems.

All this reminds me of a statement a friend made to me 31 years ago when I first got into Model A's. My friend, who was a grown man when the Model A was new and a mechanical engineer, said that if the men alive back then could come back and watch how many of the Model A'ers drive today, they'd laugh!


Larry B.

Larry, question for you? What does thick babbitt have to do with any thing, other then some what more expense. Herm

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Larry Brumfield

As mentioned in my post above, even Henry Ford implied that one should not run the Model A wide open, i.e., 65 miles an hour as in road tests.

Now do any of you think that Henry Ford himself would have made a statement about comfortable driving at 50 to 60 miles an hour if the Model A was going to throw rods or come apart? ....

Naturally, if your Model A has thicker babbitt and a crankshaft ground down so many times it's about like a toothpick, OR high mileage with shims removed OR unknown condition of bearings from a lot of use, it's best to putt putt 45 in your Model A.

BUT, as it was when Henry made it, the Model A was made to run! Wouldn't Ford have lost his credibility if the Model A engines had come all apart shortly after purchase.... "Sorry, you shouldn't have gone over 45."

The crankshaft whipping and worn out center main didn't happen overnight either. People drove them for miles with no problems.

All this reminds me of a statement a friend made to me 31 years ago when I first got into Model A's. My friend, who was a grown man when the Model A was new and a mechanical engineer, said that if the men alive back then could come back and watch how many of the Model A'ers drive today, they'd laugh!


Larry B.

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

Depends

A factory engine was carefully balanced and would go over 60 mph. So an engine brought back to factory specs should have little troubles.

Babbitt is a bearing that let's the crank spin. The enemy of Babbitt are conditions that let the Babbitt be pounded. Out of balance and lugging are the two conditions you need to avoid. Running high rpms with a balance system is a good condition.

Finding a properly balanced engine today is another story. Many A's are not well balanced and will beat themselves up at high rpm.

Kev, what are you using for evidence that a Model A was Carefully Balanced at the factory. thanks Herm.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by skip

I don't worry about the churn coming apart wide open as much as the two blade fan coming apart and going through something. Having said that...

" I Drive As If I Had A Raw Egg Between My Foot And The Accelerator Pedal. "

Nothing kills an engine more than rpm changes. Slow and steady. Baby her. Double clutch and wait for things in the transmixer to slow down or catch up. A blip on the throttle for up sifts and smooth as silk engagements .

My self imposed limit on speed is 45 mph. Fast enough. I did go to 53 mph once just for poops and grins.


skip.

Skip, your statement that nothing kills an engine more than R.P.M. changes is VERY true. One of the hardest things on a set of rods, other than NO OIL, is high R.P.M. shifts, even with out your double clutch especially. When the rods free float, not pushing or pulling, at high R.P.M. shifts, you are taking a big chance. Thanks Herm.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by George Miller

If you ran a new car for long periods of time wide open it would not last.

A new car is not a low compression 4:1 40HP 200cubic inch cast iron engine that runs around 2200-2800rpm wide open. A modern engine producing 100+HP per liter running 11:1 compression with boost and redlining at 6500K is an entirely different beast

Not really comparing oranges to oranges. The closest thing I would compare a model A engine to (please forgive me Ford Barn) Is a lawn mower engine, which run fine at 3000rpm 24\7 without pressurized oil systems and without special bearings.

[Larry Brumfield]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

Larry, question for you? What does thick babbitt have to do with any thing, other then some what more expense. Herm

Thicker babbitt is more apt to compress excessively under load.Larry B.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Larry Brumfield

Thicker babbitt is more apt to compress excessively under load.Larry B.

Another question Larry, did you get your vast knowledge of thick babbitt failing from remanufacturing babbitt bearings in your rebabbitting business, 6 to 7 days a week, for the last 42 years, or are you just repeating some old timers opinions, that you heard at swap meets saying that thick babbitt won't ever work. I will guarantee if thick babbitt fails, it isn't from any thickness. If babbitt is compressing under load, you have a bearing that has way to much clearance, has nothing to do with thickness. The same to much clearance that would compress a thick wall bearing, will also compress a thin wall bearing at the same rate, and that is a fact Jack, or I mean Larry. Ok, lets hear it, thanks Herm.

[J Franklin]

I have heard that one weakness of thick babbit is the fact that it keeps heat from dissipating through the steel of the rod which is a better conductor of heat. Fact or fiction? I don't know.

[George Miller]

Re: Can you run an A wide open?
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Miller
If you ran a new car for long periods of time wide open it would not last.


A new car is not a low compression 4:1 40HP 200cubic inch cast iron engine that runs around 2200-2800rpm wide open. A modern engine producing 100+HP per liter running 11:1 compression with boost and redlining at 6500K is an entirely different beast

Not really comparing oranges to oranges. The closest thing I would compare a model A engine to (please forgive me Ford Barn) Is a lawn mower engine, which run fine at 3000rpm 24\7 without pressurized oil systems and without special bearings.


Of course I know all that. My point is you can not run any engine wide open for long periods of time. With new cars you could not run wide open in drive you would be going to fast for the roads. I got some experience also about 60 years of working on cars. No I do not pour babbitt, But I do inserts. I for one would not want thick babbitt.

[Special Coupe Frank]

I'm still waiting for someone to offer some suggestions as to WHERE there was enough good highway in 1928-31 to run ANY car at 60 MPH for more than a sprint of a mile or two ? ( The nevada salt flats ? )

I don't think the average new A-buyer had enough good road to "call" Old Henry's bet that the Ford would run 60-65 mph, unless they put it on a race track... I think Old Henry made a safe, calculated marketing bet. And I'll bet he wouldn't have made the claim unless he felt confident that his product had the Moxie; but I don't think he was thinking about his New Ford running 60 MPH for hours on end.

I have a book published by the Ford Technical School around 1940 on shop tehnique, and from that and what else I've read about Old Henry, I have no doubt that Ford's manufacturing tolerances / engineering were probably second to none... a properly run-in, factory-fresh Model A probably stood the best chances for surviving sustained high-speed running, no disrespect intended towards the rebuilders who gather here.

My caution would be more aimed at folks who try to push an old jalopy that hard...


Regards,

SC Frank

[Patrick L.]

Yep, from everything I've been able to find out, the '60 mph deal' was used as a sales gimmick to show customers that the car would go 60 mph as the higher priced cars would.. Where in 1931 could one drive that fast? I enjoyed looking at the recent articles that Skip posted ;; 60 mph = 3000 rpm.. Most engines of this era were under-square which means low rpm and high piston speeds.. Personally, I'll keep to a reasonable 'Model A' speed and see if I can't get many more years out of the 1961 engine rebuild .. I won't even mention the vehicles safety issues and stopping distances..

[Tom Foster]

Originally Posted by George Miller

Re: Can you run an A wide open?
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Miller
If you ran a new car for long periods of time wide open it would not last.

Of course I know all that. My point is you can not run any engine wide open for long periods of time.

When I was a Young Sprout 50+ years ago my high school science club went to Southwest Research Institutie in San Antonio and we were treated to a visit to the engine shop where they were testing lubrication systems. One current-model V8, don't know the make, had been running full throttle, 6,000rpm, for 38 days continuously.
I'm afraid you made an inoperative statment, Mr. Miller.
Fearless

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Tom Foster

When I was a Young Sprout 50+ years ago my high school science club went to Southwest Research Institutie in San Antonio and we were treated to a visit to the engine shop where they were testing lubrication systems. One current-model V8, don't know the make, had been running full throttle, 6,000rpm, for 38 days continuously.
I'm afraid you made an inoperative statment, Mr. Miller.
Fearless

The Duesenberg straight 8 used in the 20's and 30's model J was able to rev above 4K with no problem as well. Of course theres really no comparison between the ford model A engine and a Duesy engine but they are the same era.