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Old 12-10-2011, 09:50 PM   #1
Craig Lewis
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Default So you want original rad hoses?

Interesting what an original looking hose will fetch on the world auction.
Does anyone know what that script hose belongs too?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/160693665311?...84.m1423.l2649
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Old 12-10-2011, 09:55 PM   #2
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Those are NOT Model A hoses ....which will generally fetch over $300 for a set of 28/29s ...and add another C note to that for the 30/31's.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:04 PM   #3
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Just because someone says it's NOS on ebay doesn't mean it is. Buyers need to do their homework. I see this all the time.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:10 PM   #4
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

My God why would anyone pay that kind of $$$ for a dryed up rad hose. Thats the price trophy hunters pay for this junk. OMO ken ct.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

There's one born every minute.....jus' sayin'
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:45 PM   #6
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

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I pulled a set of original hoses off a 42 and they had the same script, maybe I should have ebayed em.
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Old 12-11-2011, 01:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I would rather lose Judging points than pay what some people ask for original stripe hoses; that is why I went with plain red hoses and fan belt. As long as people are willing to pay the high prices you will never see the costs decrease. Just just my opinion !!!!

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Old 12-11-2011, 10:08 AM   #8
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Why is it 'OK' to insult someone who is interested in the pursuit of original parts? What they purchase, and what they pay is their business. Calling them 'trophy hunter' as used, and implying 'sucker' etc is insulting. Yet, if someone says 'my God, why would anyone pay that much for a downdraft carb setup up? Thats the price trophy hunters pay for this junk.' and or 'I'd rather lose a couple horse power than pay that price' they get jumped for being a snob or worse? I guess it's 'my kink is ok, your's is just sick'...fwiw,jm
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Old 12-11-2011, 10:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Not OK to insult anyone whether for original parts or non-original. I see far more insults about non-original parts or modifications on this forum. Can't we all please be a little more inclusive?
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Old 12-11-2011, 10:48 AM   #10
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Why the assumption that the person who bought them wanted to use them on a car? Why the assumption that he doesn't know what they fit? Collectors pay for items based on a different model than car part users. Look at the prices paid for advertising items for products that can't even be purchased any more. On a use model a porcelain sign for a no longer manufactured auto has no value because you can't buy it anymore.

No I didn't buy them.
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Old 12-11-2011, 01:12 PM   #11
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Jim, define "sick" ...is this the old definition (i.e.: puke) or the lingo-of-today's version (i.e.: totally cool!)??
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Old 12-11-2011, 01:35 PM   #12
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Notice the shade of red on the stripe. Repos are not even close.
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Old 12-11-2011, 01:55 PM   #13
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I love it! I'm one of the "sick" individuals that will pay for NOS rubber parts. I have a set of original NOS hoses on my Tudor and they are fine as long as I don't mess with them. They have been on the car since 2001. I have extras for the next fine point car I'm working on.
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Old 12-11-2011, 02:23 PM   #14
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I hope my comment was not taken wrong, there was no intent to critize anyone who spend $'s for original parts. That is what is great about our hobby, a person can restore his A the way he wants too, some are drivers, some are show, in the eye of the owner he A is his pride and joy !!!!!!

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Old 12-11-2011, 02:51 PM   #15
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I'm overjoyed to know these prices will be paid for the "right" parts, it should make more people start looking for them. There are different levels of Model A Ford enjoyment, I wouldn't knock the upper end stuff and I don't enjoy reading about driver or hobby grade car owners being talked down to.
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Not OK to insult anyone whether for original parts or non-original. I see far more insults about non-original parts or modifications on this forum. Can't we all please be a little more inclusive?
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Old 12-11-2011, 03:12 PM   #16
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Put me on that "SICK" list also... In 1985 I paid $60.00 for the two lower hoses & $50.00 for the top one so I could go to the First World Meet with my 1928 Special Coupe.. Today they are still hard, still on it & holding water.. That was a lot of $$ back then.. But now how about a Police Head $500.00, Carbs, $200.00-300.00, Key ring $400.00, Multi-Disc Clutch Assy. $250.00 (un-restored) How many do you want ??. $700.00 Radiators, $300.00-$400.00 Restored 3X plugs, Do you need a set of N.O.S 1928-30 in the original box 3X plugs, $500.00 ??... Tire valve stem sets restored $500.00-$700.00. How much is an Original set of 1928 Floor Boards worth that can be used in show ??, Any style..
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Old 12-12-2011, 11:41 AM   #17
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I believe that this is what you fellows are talking about.
MIKE
CLICK ON PHOTO TO ENLARGE - Twice
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Old 12-12-2011, 02:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

First if you read the JUDGING STANDARDS they will state... NONE HAD SCRIPT IMPRINT..I too must be on the sick list... I paid $200.00 for a pair of nice n.o.s. lower radiator hoses... If people remember right back 3 years ago i posted a wanted ad for 30/31 top radiator hose before French Lick to prove a point.. $500.00 for a nice useable hose and there was no sellers.My point at the time was people keep passing the same hoses around to friends showing their car at a National meet. This is why they should allow a good reproduction hose for show.. Anyway another few years no one will care oneway or another!
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Old 12-12-2011, 02:38 PM   #19
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ken ct View Post
My God why would anyone pay that kind of $$$ for a dryed up rad hose. Thats the price trophy hunters pay for this junk. OMO ken ct.
Ken, I agree who in the world would want a piece of dried up old rubber hose? Darn thing would leak like a sieve anyway.
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Old 12-12-2011, 02:46 PM   #20
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This is why they should allow a good reproduction hose for show.. Anyway another few years no one will care oneway or another!
The standards don't allow or dis-allow anything except the 13 mandatory items (i'm at work, is it 13 or 14). Just don't expect full points for repop. <p>I don't know about passing parts around for show. I have most of the parts I want to use for fine point and I won't be borrowing any. If i find them, i find them. If not..meh. In a few years I will still care....fwiw,jm
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Old 12-12-2011, 03:26 PM   #21
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

" So you want original rad hoses? "

Yes,...................28-29,...............btw, which address do you want,
shop or home?
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Old 12-12-2011, 03:49 PM   #22
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First if you read the JUDGING STANDARDS they will state... NONE HAD SCRIPT IMPRINT..I too must be on the sick list... I paid $200.00 for a pair of nice n.o.s. lower radiator hoses... If people remember right back 3 years ago i posted a wanted ad for 30/31 top radiator hose before French Lick to prove a point.. $500.00 for a nice useable hose and there was no sellers.My point at the time was people keep passing the same hoses around to friends showing their car at a National meet. This is why they should allow a good reproduction hose for show.. Anyway another few years no one will care oneway or another!
Pete, I wont even pass my hoses between MY TWO cars !!..
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:05 PM   #23
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Jim Mason, been a long time we spoke.... In the shop today we were talking "LIONEL TRAINS" and setting them up this week for Christmas. US old timers [57-60...l.o.l.] do not see the young caring about our old trains that we had since we were kids. The train shops are mostly gone[thanks to on line shopping too]..No more going in and looking around before you buy something you don't need.Same with the cars... and its parts. FRED... i feel the same way I DO NOT HAVE ANY PARTS ON MY CAR AT ANY TIME that belongs to someone else.But i am glad the scoring of 480 that you can now receive a Henry Ford award so,, ORIGINAL HOSES are not a issue. with 20 point lead way.
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:35 PM   #24
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

FL&WVMIKE, I drool over the picture you posted! It reminds me of the complete box of NOS lower hoses I bought at Hershey a few years back for $20.00 (enough hoses for 8 cars!)
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:44 PM   #25
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Quote:
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FL&WVMIKE, I drool over the picture you posted! It reminds me of the complete box of NOS lower hoses I bought at Hershey a few years back for $20.00 (enough hoses for 8 cars!)
GARY KARR ......................
I, too, bought mine at Hershey. It is a full box of four, enough for four cars. I, also, think that I paid $20.00 for them. I think I remember there being more of them on the table. Now, for me, this was in the late 60s or early 70s.
Perhaps, we bought them at the same time and place.
MIKE
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:48 PM   #26
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

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I guess $20.00 a box you gotta be old enough in this hobby... Late 60's i was not driving yet... l.o.l. Early 70's i did more PARKING then driving.
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:52 PM   #27
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I paid $20 for a box last year. Enough for one car. Said something to the effect "Look just like originals." They work great!
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:06 PM   #28
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Peters 180A: Amato's hobby shop in downtown new britain and downtown Middletown, CT still has operating lay outs in store and this is the season.
Paul in CT
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:23 PM   #29
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Quote:
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I guess $20.00 a box you gotta be old enough in this hobby... Late 60's i was not driving yet... l.o.l. Early 70's i did more PARKING then driving.
Pete, I was old enough, But the only thing I was driving @ the time was a Bulldozer in Da Nang V.N. I asked if I could get leave to go the Hershey & they put me in a bunker with an M-60...Fred..
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:34 PM   #30
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Quote:
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I love it! I'm one of the "sick" individuals that will pay for NOS rubber parts. I have a set of original NOS hoses on my Tudor and they are fine as long as I don't mess with them.

Not to mention that i too am one and pretty happy with being of those sick one's that big BIG Bucks for my Original 29 AND 31 Radiator Hoses, and my original Steering Column anti rattle strip,,, They are REAL and they are stunning and it was well worth it to me to pay the TOP Dollar for the Points. So please don't classify "SICK" and crazy about anyone if that is what they choose to collect and use.. I learned a long time ago, "Dont Count Anyone's Money" It gets you No where FAST!!!
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:03 PM   #31
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Could some list these 13 or 14 "Must Have NOS Parts"? Knowing what they are and the fact there is a market will make me walk slower and look closer at flea markets.
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The standards don't allow or dis-allow anything except the 13 mandatory items (i'm at work, is it 13 or 14). Just don't expect full points for repop. <p>I don't know about passing parts around for show. I have most of the parts I want to use for fine point and I won't be borrowing any. If i find them, i find them. If not..meh. In a few years I will still care....fwiw,jm
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:39 PM   #32
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Jim, it is 14

Roadster62, The "must have NOS parts" is not what Jim was referring to. If you have
a complete Model A, you probable have most. The top 6 are............
1. Four cylinder Model A engine and drive train.
2. Engine mounts
3. Carburetor (Holly, Zenith or Ford)
4. Mechanical brake system
5. Horn
6. Steel spoke wheels

I'm tired of typing,....were are my 28-29 hoses.

Get the Judging Standards, it's cheap($25 I think) lots of GOOD info.
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:08 PM   #33
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Interesting to someone maybe...I took these pictures for a previous discussion.
Note how the stripe isn't painted... it's actually a thin layer of "coloured rubber".
I picked these up from various sources over the years.
Although they're hard as wood, I ran hot water into the sink and soaked them a few minutes and they became quite pliable.
..........they even slip onto a water neck OK.

I wonder if that stripe had some significance in the manufacturing process?
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:40 PM   #34
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

dj has it right. There are no 'required nos parts' only requirements for fine point judging. Besides the 6 he wrote, there are original type electrical system (lamps, generator, starter and battery located under the floor), original type two blade fan ( a long way from the original propeller style, two blade metal fan I proposed at a MAFCA JSC)j, original style top and upholstery material for year and model of vehicle,original type steel sheet metal (no fiberglass), original type exterior paint color and stripe pattern for the vehicle, original type tires-correct size for year of vehicle, original type metal valve stems and covers, original type shock absorbers, arms and tubular links. Not difficult to get into fine point at all.
I'd love to have and i'm still looking for a 28 battery, useable fan belt [i have a 31 belt that i will use if i have to,if i can get it soft enough], 8 1/2inch door check strap, better wiring and a few other things but if i never find them that's ok too. I'm building this for me, not for the points. I'll have it judged just to see how I did... or not...haven't decided yet.
I don't want the standards changed to allow full points for repop anything. That wouldn't be fair to those who sought and found the original parts. Just because I can't find them, doesn't mean I should get points for repop.

stand·ard

   [stan-derd] Show IPA
noun 1. something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model.


aptly named 'Judging standards'. The vehicle will be judged to the standard.
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:44 PM   #35
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I agree with Jim. I also seek out the best original parts (within my price range) and may or may not have my car judged some day.
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:29 AM   #36
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Tom,

Do not wait like I did; I was 82 and decided if I was ever going to enter a car in fine point judging I had better do it before I started pushing up dasies, and it sure was gratifying !!! Why I never entered one of the previous 4 I have restored from the ground up since 1962 probable was the fear of not doing well. It is a wonderful experience that a restorer will never feel unless he enters his A at a National Meet.

Ron
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:44 AM   #37
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Well said Jim. I agree that repeo wiring and hoses, etc should not get full points in fine point judging. This may end up being a battle that we will loose. Ron, what a wonderful showing you did in San Diego this summer at the MARC National Meet. Your E-28 is outstanding and was a real asset to th meet. Can't wait to see what you'll you do next!
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Old 12-13-2011, 01:23 PM   #38
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Silly us eh!
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Old 12-13-2011, 01:37 PM   #39
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Silly us eh!
Gary, Those in picture are easy to find !! Take $200.00 for all !! Fred..
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Old 12-13-2011, 01:38 PM   #40
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

" then how does one draw the line as to which reproduction parts are eligible for full credit and which are not for fine pint judging purposes?"

Good question Tim.

And the answer is?
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Old 12-13-2011, 01:51 PM   #41
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" then how does one draw the line as to which reproduction parts are eligible for full credit and which are not for fine pint judging purposes?"

Good question Tim.

And the answer is?
That line has a BIG curve to it as some of the judges dont even know the difference..
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Old 12-13-2011, 01:58 PM   #42
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Tim, GOOD QUESTION!!!!!!!!!! AND SMART THINKING.... A.A.C.A. is somewhat a "JOKE when it comes to judging. For years i ask the question about REPRODUCTION BODIES [ ROADSTER 30/31.. ] when it comes to judging..The answer is WELL THERE'S A BODY so they must get some points... Ok i have no problem with that as long as there is a number for deduction... 50% , 60% what. There is not a flat deduction.Then my next question was ...its not fair to people who restore ORIGINAL BODIES as 400A's , 180A's and 68A-B-C.Well if they do not restore a ORIGINAL BODY as good as a Repro. then they will lose points,,,HELLO ,what about the time spent and the money to bring around a original body...jackoff...that did not go well...maybe i should of just called him a jackass.
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:31 PM   #43
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Fred, no complaint here!

Peter, I also agree with you. BUT I also think there are plenty of body's/fenders
and tin to work with. The key word is "work", and that means MONEY. I don't have
much money lately to burn on the car, plus I don't mind doing the work. The thing
that gets me going is the tough stuff to find, belts, hoses, 28 steering wheels,....
...I know there's more, just can't think of them right now!
I spent 5 years looking for the correct pop-out cable for my Roadster!
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:07 PM   #44
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Old 12-13-2011, 05:38 PM   #45
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What I am unable to appreciate is why some reproduction items receive full credit and others do not.

For example, it is my understanding that reproduction radiator hoses, fan belts and wiring are not awarded full credit, even if the items are of high quality.
I suppose "quality" is a bit subjective but not really the issue. The reproduction versions of these items DO NOT look like the originals. Similar? Maybe to some but certainly not to me. This is why MARC used to have judging schools and MAFCA had judging related seminars. It was to educate both judges as well as interested restorers. The following is a part of the "Standards" that many folks choose to disregard:

"An original part that is well restored and correct for the vehicle being judged shall be awarded full points. If a reproduction part is such that it is indistinguishable from the original when new, it too shall merit full points. If the appearance of a component is different in any way or if materials are different from those used in the original part, the part must be considered a reproduction or incorrect part and awarded fewer points."


Quote:
Further, it is my understanding that other reproduction items such as paint, top material, upholstery, plating, glass, floor mats, running board mats, tires, window channels, and mufflers, and probably other parts, if high quality, can indeed be awarded full credit.

That generally depends on the knowledge and experience of the judge or judges. The first half of the Standards quote above addresses this as well. KNOWING something is new is not enough. Paint for example, we know must be new but if it looks like it did when the cars were new it must be excepted.

Now mufflers SHOULD NOT be on that list! However MARC seems to except "similar" to original mufflers. I may be to blame indirectly. When I first showed my Roadster in 1996 I was just finishing the car (right up until show time!) and did not have time to restore my original muffler. I put on an early Aries unit (better than today's Aries). I had excepted the fact it should/would cost me a point or so. Well, it cost me THREE points. While I didn't make a big "to do" about it, somebody else must have, as before I knew it they stopped deducting points for even the later versions. I don't agree with that. On the other hand it may indeed be simply an issue of ignorance regarding all the dissimilarities between the originals and the "similar" reproduction.

Quote:
If the foregoing is true, and I am sure I will be corrected if mistaken, then how does one draw the line as to which reproduction parts are eligible for full credit and which are not for fine pint judging purposes?
I believe I've covered it but to reemphasize, the "line" tends to float as it's actually based on the knowledge level of the judges and judging pool at any particular meet. That is why the scoring is typically much higher at regional meets. The judging pool is much smaller. Additionally, as time goes by we lose more of the "old timers" who knew a great deal just from experience with relatively unmolested cars.

With all that said, I personally did NOT build my car "for show". I did it strictly for me as I believe it was when new. I don't particularly care if someone thinks I'm crazy because I don't what to see cheap looking repro hoses when I open the hood of MY car. They've now been on there 16 years and will stay as long as I own the car.
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:03 PM   #46
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in re: 'how do you draw the line' see Marco's answer above. Also, that is what's nice about judging to a standard. At any particular meet, the scoring should be even across the vehicles. That is, if a repop muffler gets full points at meet X, then all cars with repop mufflers get full points. If at meet 'Y' repop gets a deduction, then the all get a decuction. Judging is fair at both meets, the quality of judging is taken into account. Can you compare the score of meet X to meet Y..probably not. Does it matter, probably not not more than a few points plus or minus...fwiw,jm
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:13 PM   #47
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

It is easy to say [i have original parts on my car] and not cheap looking repro hoses for those who have the parts already but if you want to keep this hobby going for people who take their MONEY,TIME to build a fine point car today, you must make some allowance. There is nothing wrong with the way the new hoses look sold by Bratton's and A+L Parts. I was offered first to look at a lg. top hose, used original that had a 1/2 split in it from the top down. Held water but who is crazy to buy it for $350.00 ..It sold at Hershey but i was not buying . I'll stay with my nice looking new top hose.What gets me is why go and have the hoses made and not like originals??? Even the fan belts??? Could the cost be that much greater???Japan is the worlds greatest copy cats send them the blueprints.
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:40 PM   #48
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:45 PM   #49
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Gary, why not send some of these "stocking stuffers" to your Model A buddies?
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:55 AM   #50
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I did not realize that I was "hoarding" such rare "A" Model parts, as my NOS '28-'29 Radiator Inlet hoses. I have just had them in my "Curosity" Cabinet.
I would not put a "crazy" price on them, but I could let some, or all, (four) go.
I would take an equally rare FORD part, in the box, being either Flathead V8 or "A" Model, in trade.
I would entertain all offers, but I am not trying to get rid of them.
They are in mint condition, being sheilded from light and dirt for decades.
MIKE

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Old 12-15-2011, 02:06 PM   #51
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Mike to bad there 1928/29 top hoses..If they were 30/31's double the price... I have a friend who has the same box of n.o.s. top hoses.[$20.00] But they were given to him from a friend and not to be sold until his death.. What kind of frigen deal was that... I wanted to cut some up for lower hoses..
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Old 12-15-2011, 03:54 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by peters180a/170b View Post
It is easy to say [i have original parts on my car] and not cheap looking repro hoses for those who have the parts already but if you want to keep this hobby going for people who take their MONEY,TIME to build a fine point car today, you must make some allowance. There is nothing wrong with the way the new hoses look sold by Bratton's and A+L Parts. I was offered first to look at a lg. top hose, used original that had a 1/2 split in it from the top down. Held water but who is crazy to buy it for $350.00 ..It sold at Hershey but i was not buying . I'll stay with my nice looking new top hose.What gets me is why go and have the hoses made and not like originals??? Even the fan belts??? Could the cost be that much greater???Japan is the worlds greatest copy cats send them the blueprints.


Above is one pair of lower hoses I have for the next project. Below is Bratton's pic of their hoses. I suppose "there is nothing wrong with the way the new hoses look" if someone just wants striped hoses. I consider them "similar" to the originals.

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Old 12-15-2011, 05:01 PM   #53
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It is easy to say [i have original parts on my car] and not cheap looking repro hoses for those who have the parts already but if you want to keep this hobby going for people who take their MONEY,TIME to build a fine point car today, you must make some allowance. There is nothing wrong with the way the new hoses look sold by Bratton's and A+L Parts. I was offered first to look at a lg. top hose, used original that had a 1/2 split in it from the top down. Held water but who is crazy to buy it for $350.00 ..It sold at Hershey but i was not buying . I'll stay with my nice looking new top hose.What gets me is why go and have the hoses made and not like originals??? Even the fan belts??? Could the cost be that much greater???Japan is the worlds greatest copy cats send them the blueprints.
Heck Pete, as you very well know, most folks do not seem to have the ability or the mental capacity to restore something accurately or authentically. It appears to me that is why the hobby appears to be dwindling for fine-point. "Restorers" now appear to be more of 'parts changer' than someone who can take something and return it to condition like it was originally. That is too hard!!

I guess my thoughts are kinda like this. If someone sucks at basketball and they are not really dedicated enuf to learn the fundamentals, it is easy for them to say it is a dumb game and not participate. Naturally it would be easier for the game officials to lower the 'Backboard & Rim' so they possibly have a chance at making a 'basket' but realistically, if they do that does it make the sport better, or will some folks who have trouble getting the ball through the lowered rim complain that it should be lowered even more? And, ...maybe the players that sucked before will still suck after the rules have been changed! Since you mentioned it, do you know what REALLY torks me in the basketball game is when them folks doing the officiating make dumb calls! Nobody "wins" then!!!
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:50 AM   #54
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Well said, Brent.

In addition to Judges that might not be overly skilled or knowledgeable, there are those judges that score extra hard and not give the benefit to the restorer in an effort to show other judges how 'smart' THEY are!
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:50 AM   #55
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

There are rules and they are pretty much followed for a "pick up" game just not to the degree that they do in the NBA, doesn't mean that those of us that play on the play ground don't love the game as much as the NBA players.

Last edited by Clydes 31 P/U; 12-16-2011 at 08:53 AM. Reason: forgot to quote Brent
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:48 PM   #56
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Brent .... Take something and return it to condition like it was original ??? Guess you never judged the BRASS cars or CLASSIC cars at a meet.? How would you restore a original hose? Original Fan belt that's as dry as a dog's bone ? Come on you are going to tell me you never seen that 1 original dried up belt at every meet that they just hang in place before judging ?Year after year that belt gets passed to another car[ but never to a NEW OWNER],,, Same with radiator hoses..Its a f-en game they must play... Never change the rules for others...Obility or Mental capacity ? Guess you never seen enough BEFORE and AFTER pictures... And you are mixing apples with oranges with Restoring a car and playing a game.Take the game of BASEBALL...Are all the out fields the same ???NO ,,some are longer then others and shorter too. All depends on their hitters on the team.. I had a very nice original top radiator hose [used but nice] .NO matter what i did to it the hose came up short compared to the rest of the car restoration. [In other words OUT OF PLACE] .When i seen Steve Ciccalone ORIGINAL coupe at French Lick meet and he not having a top original hose on the car , i put it in a box and mailed it to him. It looked better on a Original car then a fully restored car. Let me ask you another question.. Who makes the rules??? the guys that got there already and have the hoses ??? Are they protecting their backs???and their scores from others reaching their goals??
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:20 PM   #57
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I truly see both sides of the fence, and have for awhile. The tape measure is getting
longer and the 80 plus year old NOS parts thinner. This is a tough hobby/sport for
a guy that has spent 43 years " fudging " the rules, and RockHillWill, I think, also
knows were I'm coming from. Not to many places to fudge on a fine point car!
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:46 PM   #58
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

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I truly see both sides of the fence, and have for awhile. The tape measure is getting
longer and the 80 plus year old NOS parts thinner. This is a tough hobby/sport for
a guy that has spent 43 years " fudging " the rules, and RockHillWill, I think, also
knows were I'm coming from. Not to many places to fudge on a fine point car!
D.J. I agree to a point.. I think, as has been even shown in pictures here that Original stuff, while maybe THIN on the market, is still out there.. I myself have a FEW, But it is becomming more & more of a problem trying to get people to cut loose with them, even with the BIG $$ offered by some.. But others still want the parts, RUBBER or not, for 1980 prices & then complain it cant be found.. I think there is still a lot of NOS stuff on shelves all over the MODEL "A" World..
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:22 PM   #59
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the standards aren't rules. there are a few 'notes to judges' mixed in the standards but are very limited. The standards are 'standards'. AS in 'to the best of our ability this is the description of the parts that were standard on the car as it rolled out.' It's up to the restorer to either put a part that meets the standard, or not. If it doesn't meet the standard, don't expect or request full points (and in my opinion receive full points). The writers of the standards aren't protecting anything. They aren't saying 'you have to have nos on the vehicle'. They are saying ' this is what was on the car' . How can you change the past? If you want to judge to a what was standard on the car, how can you allow repop? Allow repop rubber products, then you have to allow vintque quails. If you want to have repop and garner more points enter touring class. if you want to enter fine point, and garner more points you will either have to make nos look new, or repop look original and new. To the current JSC members, Please never lower the standards. If anything raise them. I'd rather score 400 points against a very high standard than 500 against a low one. That is i'd rather be said that compared to einstein i did pretty good rather than 'moe(jim) was the smart stooge'....btw, most people don't realize that putting a nos part on isn't a matter of bolting it on. They require alot of work to make them look new. They don't require making them look right, then making them look new so it is easier to use nos than repop from that standpont.....fwiw,jm
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:41 PM   #60
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Jim,
I agree, for Fine Point, as keeping it as close as possible to the way it rolled of the
line. I like viewing correct A's. We are also having a FRIENDLY conversation, OK.
You can't compare repop rubber parts to a vintque quail, that is apples to cucumbers.
Of all the parts that die on the car from age, rubber and cloth are the 2 that come
to mind. I'm excluding things you can't see when the car is assembled, so fare so
good?
Now, say you don't want to be in touring class, you want to be in fine point. How
do you judge repop tires? Would it be the same as the rest of the repop rubber
parts,.....including hoses and belts?
Thanks, Dudley
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:11 PM   #61
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

My personal perception in the ones that are argumentative with this is some folks have difficulty seeing the forest for the trees. Using the initial topic of this thread as a great example, for some, they looked at those two hoses on eBay and said they are NOT correct hoses and could not be used in fine-point competition. To others, they saw those hoses as a basis for modification to become authentic looking Model A hoses. Some only have the creativity to see the forest while others have the ability to see the individual tree in that forest.

In another post someone made a comment that making a facsimile of original door straps would not be something the average person could make at home. I think that statement is very accurate because the average person has trouble creating something as simple as a door strap however it can be done at home by a person who uses some good old ingenuity and their brain. Since rubber parts are mentioned, and using tires as an example, some folks can take a new set of tires and detail them where they appear very similar in appearance to an originally installed tire while others only unwrap them from their plastic and install them on the rim. Where this difference in this is that some folks do not see detail. Repop rubber is fine however most pull it out of the plastic bag and install it complaining that is the best available. Others go find the original print showing the details (shapes & sizes) and then modify the repop piece of rubber to have those correct radii and shapes, and then lightly blast the rubber where it mimics the original look. Some think this is absurd while others enjoy the creativity and focus it takes to replicate something in exacting detail. So, which side of the fence can you play on??


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Old 12-16-2011, 11:26 PM   #62
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Jim,

You can't compare repop rubber parts to a vintque quail, that is apples to cucumbers.

Now, say you don't want to be in touring class, you want to be in fine point. How
do you judge repop tires? Would it be the same as the rest of the repop rubber
parts,.....including hoses and belts?
Thanks, Dudley
i was using reducto absurdum (sp?) taking an argument to an extreme to show a point. I was using it like 'if you give a mouse a cookie'. If you allow repop hoses, then you have to allow repop fan belts. If you allow belts, then tires. If tires then what? As for judging tires...if you can make repop look like new original I'd give full points. If it looks like repop then fewer points. I have a set of s3's...how many points for those? If i can make them look like the orginials..full points. If not...fewer....fwiw,jm
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:14 AM   #63
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Well everyone has their ideas on how to judge FINE POINT cars [and that's why i don't do it] .When showing the 180A at the French Lick the car parked along side me had a pit crew [like NASCAR] changing the belt, hoses ,spark plugs... Even at the Owner / judge meeting someone asked if they were going to have time doing that[replace the hoses]... What does that tell you..??? The guy is driving in with hardly no water to replace the hoses? And the original hoses that he plans on putting on are shot and will not hold water. You want to end this...??This is my idea ,,from now on ALL FINE POINT CARS "MUST DRIVE IN AND THE OWNER have NO TIME to change anything NOTHING and right after judging comes the tour Again right then and now..Lets see how many ORIGINAL FAN BELTS are on the cars and HOSES.. and Spark plug good enough to fire the engine up and run??? LOOKS is good but to run that's another question...Jim [VINTQUE QUAIL] please that's AREA16: Accessories and really no one should have them on...they are just looking for trouble in fine point judging. The part would need to be perfect original restored and if you don't have any on the car you are better off. I tell everyone keep it simple. AS far as the tires well, GOODYEAR is more correct then Firestone and if one takes the time like Brent said to detail the tires then its ok. Correct color for the flag [and on some the red ring around the tire.
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Old 12-17-2011, 07:43 AM   #64
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Jeez Pete, you and your preconcieved notions of how evaluations should be done, ....yet you won't "give back" to the very sport that you are taking from. Using your mindset, suppose someone else came along and said "The vehicle owner must do his own paint & upholstery work on his car to be eligible for a 'Henry' award!" That would surely lower the costs of building a F/P Model A, wouldn't it , --and make it fair for the "little guy". If that happened, could you compete with your car???

Now think first before you start typing because I can think of several cars whose owner has done both tasks and earned a 'Henry'. Matter of fact, doesn't that describe the highest scoring Model A in the country? If so, then that proves this rule would be a good idea! Afterall, we are the Model A RESTORERS Club, --not the Model A HIRE-IT-DONE Club!
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Old 12-17-2011, 08:12 AM   #65
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Now i am aaathinking ,My first restoration was a 1931 Tudor[not for show just for drive] .Turned out meeting a still
to this day ,friend who owned a body shop and showed me the trade[somewhat]. I Did all the sandblasting , metal prep , prime ,,and not the final paint coat complete chassic work all but upholstery..That was before the Judging Standards and you were still in high school. Restored 3 more "A' s after that and a few more Fords and non-Fords. Big deal right [NOT] ! I restored a standard roadster with most of the work done be my friend and me. Some Final steps were done by a shop who restored top show cars before.It took me 3 tries before i won a Henry Ford award with that car. VERY FEW if even a handful fully restored their own car to win a Henry without any help.. I for one think no one did ! You must have some friends in the plating , painting ,engine building and upholstery business. I happen to give back to the HOBBY [ITS NOT A SPORT TO ME]. I pay my dues to 3 National clubs [how many here belong to all 3?] and then locale chapters. Pay to attend meets [club make money on that deal],i judge A,A,C,A, and locale meets. And not get paid like everyone else. So don't tell me i don't give back....I catered food to 130+ people for 13 years for a club picnic and did you ever figure how much money and time just to be a judge at Hershey ??? I plan on 4 meets this year ,,,you do the math..I guess that's why you are not busy [ITS THE RESTORER CLUB and NOT HIRE ME CLUB...L.O.L.
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Old 12-17-2011, 08:45 AM   #66
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Again, you are playing the 'shell game' with me Pete! I said the new rule is the owner must do their own Paint and Upholstery. I did NOT say the rule included engine building, or plating, or ??. See, you are again trying to bend this hypothetical new rule to make it fit your circumstances. Yes it is a SPORT because you chose to be in competition with your vehicle. Look up the definition of 'sport'.

And yes you may have given back to the hobby in general but that is not what I said. We have all discussed this before about why you don't assist with the Judging process and I think many have stated that you are taking away fom the process without giving the very thing you are taking back in. The math is just what it is. You wanna Play, ...you gotta Pay!!


Oh, and with regard to us "not being busy", since I cannot tell if you are making a statement or being sarcastic, I will just say that for the ones who have actually been to my shop recently, they will tell you that statement is totally false, however one must also realize that by comparison we restore very few fine-point specific cars. Now, go ahead and make your final rebuttal towards me and then lets get back to the original thread topic.
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Old 12-17-2011, 10:09 AM   #67
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I don't care what the other guy does. I don't care that the other guy has more nos, or less than i do. I don't care if the other guy play the system to get more points. If they are that shallow...so what? it's their problem, not mine. If they score 500 points by swapping parts, and i score 400 so what? I scored 400. If they aren't allowed to swap parts and score 400 and i score 400...so what? I scored 400 points. I just want to see how my car scores against a very high standard. Lower the standard and I won't care...i just won't enter my car. if i want a lower standard i'll enter touring. no offense meant to touring. excellent cars, excellent job..just different standard that i'm not interested in. If you are arguing that by allowing repop hoses (or other parts) the number of fine point cars will increase, i disagree. I proposed at the mafca jsc to allow a metal propellor type two blade fan. it was approved by both jsc's and is not part of the new standards. I honestly don't believe it will make the least bit of difference in the number of cars in fine point. As for the quail...please read my previous..i was taking the argument to the absurd limit. If you want full points in accessories, don't put any on the car. The clubs now allow a none original fan. next you want to allow non original looking hoses...and fan belts...and door check straps...and spark plugs..and and and and. where would it end? ...fwiw,jm
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Old 12-17-2011, 12:03 PM   #68
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Brent , I don't know about laws in Tennessee but here if you get caught spraying paint without a booth and special vents ,filters , fire safety permits , building permits, zone codes you will be fined and locked up!!!!!!! So as far as around here there's no back yard in the garage spraying.! EPA BOYS will be right up your sweet butt! A neighbor removed some bushes and trees[3-4 inch thick tree trunk] and was fined $150,000 or replace the 100 or so bushes and trees..It was in the News Papers... Shit you get close to wet lands and forget about it. Your ass is in jail with a guy named Bubba.. Jim,,, hoses and fan belts will do .that's it.. thank you...Can i ask anyone ..when was the last time you seen n.o.s. top hose for sale for a 1930/31 "A"??? Or for that matter a n.o.s. fan belt that CAN BE USED on a running car??? You have seen spark plugs and most door check straps . I picked up another pair of deluxe door straps at Hershey for $50.00 and i had a pair of n.o.s. 30/31 standard open car ones for sale on the table for $50.00 [no buyers]. So Jim i'll go back to my original request..ALL Fine Point cars must run on what they have at time of judging...NO PIT CREWS and NO last minute part changing....Its for the little guy's
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Old 12-17-2011, 12:57 PM   #69
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Peter if I sell you my extra 30-31 upper hose at a reasonable cost, would you still argue for equal score of the reproduction hoses?
[] yes?
[] no?
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Old 12-17-2011, 01:00 PM   #70
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Quote:
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Can i ask anyone ..when was the last time you seen n.o.s. top hose for sale for a 1930/31 "A"???
I sent Dave Lopes two of them along with two sets of bottom hoses back around February of last year, and included an original box to boot. They're out there if you look in the right places, I promise you that. And yes, they're rock hard but you'd be surprised what a little while in boiling water will do for them.

This whole argument about allowing reproduction parts because the original stuff is tough to find is BS, plain and simple. If that were the case then we could all order a couple grand worth of stuff from A&L and score 500 points. Then we'd all have our very own Henry. How cool would that be?

It's been posted more than once, but for those who missed it the first time, if a reproduction part is indistinguishable from an original in every way shape and form then it should receive full points. The problem here is that I don't think I've EVER seen a repro part that was absolutely indistinguishable from an original. Even the nicest stuff on the market still has it's differences when inspected. And to keep this on topic, I think Stevie Wonder could tell the differences in the repro radiator hoses so there's no reason to even be having this discussion. They're visibly different. Period...


Just my 2 cents....
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Old 12-17-2011, 01:07 PM   #71
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Quote:
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I sent Dave Lopes two of them along with two sets of bottom hoses back around February of last year, and included an original box to boot. They're out there if you look in the right places, I promise you that. And yes, they're rock hard but you'd be surprised what a little while in boiling water will do for them.


Even the nicest stuff on the market still has it's differences when inspected. And to keep this on topic, I think Stevie Wonder could tell the differences in the repro radiator hoses so there's no reason to even be having this discussion. They're visibly different. Period...

Deron

Point well said and i am in total agreement, I have NOS Hoses for 28-29 and for 30-31 and paid good and want full points and DONT believe the REPO hoses should get the same and also for the fan belt..If you look hard and did the work to find them then you get the points...imho!
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Old 12-17-2011, 01:21 PM   #72
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I also have TWO sets of each 28/29 30/31 hoses, NOS in the box 3x plugs, ETC, ETC.. A good but used red fan belt... Its out there you just have to find it....
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Old 12-17-2011, 01:35 PM   #73
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This is why they should allow a good reproduction hose for show.. Anyway another few years no one will care oneway or another!
the argument changes too fast to keep up. first allow repop hoses, and to paraphrase 'fine point is dying', then allow hoses and belts and plugs and 'run what you brung'.

Again taking it to the extreme...where do you draw the line? can't change hoses/plugs etc? or can't wipe up the oil leak? can't remove the fingerprints? can't wipe off the oil leak? What about road dirt from driving it? It's allowed already. what about over greasing? (yes, i am taking it to the absurd again, but it is to show my point.)

if you don't want to be judged under the current standards...don't. if you do, then accept the standards. if you want to change the standards...make the proposal to the jsc's. i would rather see a run what you brung, but if it is allowed...so what? I won't swap parts before the judging, but i'm not going say somebody else can't. my car is not being compared to them anyway, it's being compared to a known standard. If they play the system, and score 500 and I score 400...so what? I scored 400 against a higher standard.

As to epa, local and state laws/rules etc? why do yout not want 'them' telling you what you can and can't do, but then you want to tell others what they can and can't do?

(correction to my last post, that should read the repop fans ARE allowed into fine point)
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Old 12-17-2011, 02:07 PM   #74
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AS far as EPA and their rules they can suck a egg! Why ARE repop fans allow in fine point judging??? there plenty around.. I have run original fans since 1974 and still do! As for all the other johnny come lately sellers where were you guy's when i put up a wanted ad for N.O.S. Radiator hoses ???? dlshady ,,you did not answer my ad??? LONG BEFORE you sold them to Dave....!Craig Lewis yes and yes.....i did have a upper hose,it went to Steve C. as i said it will look out of place on my car but not on his.[it was FREE]. i still would argue because i want to level the playing field for the small guy. And Mark let me guess where you bought the hoses from ???? I hear you were dealing a lot and paying big money for parts when Dave L. was still with us... He never answered my ad too! and that was before French Lick! P.S. Do i need a top radiator hose at this point?? "NO" not really I HAVE A HENRY [well 2 of them] ,,i am thinking of the other guys who are trying ...

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Old 12-17-2011, 02:49 PM   #75
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

repop fans are 'allowed' in the 14 required elements for fine point...to level the field for the little guy. There is a points deduction if you have repop. Repop hoses are 'allowed' in fine point...to level the field for the little guy. The is a points deduction if you have repop.

the reason the repop fans are 'allowed' is that i got tired of arguing online with the people that wanted it and proposed it at a jsc meeting(the argument was 'if an original fan failed and someone was hurt the clubs would be liable', and 'i won't enter fine point because the fans are unsafe and won't use one'. my feeling at the time was 'if you don't play the game, you should try to make the rules'. I've not heard of anyone new in fine point because of the change. it did stop the argument) . .fwiw,jm
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Old 12-17-2011, 05:27 PM   #76
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

So Peter, it seems much of the guidelines aren't fair for the "little" guy?
I'm trying to put this into perspective.
Now you say if I supply you with this original hose (that everyone else both living and deceased) wouldn't sell you, that you'll continue to push for equality between NOS & mass produced offshore hoses, etc?
It seems if you could somehow change the guidelines for this to take place, it would make ALL our original hoses worthless hardened junk, INCLUDING the one I sell YOU.
Boy this sure doesn't seem fair to the "big" guys OR the "little" guys.

...by the way...I consider myself a "little" guy...still TONS to learn... except I don't feel like being included in your classification.

I've been reading your posts for years now about all the unfairness bestowed upon JUST your car at judging. Specifically it always seemed odd that your vast network of judging connections, Hershey events, French lick, Ebay & numerous swap meets across the nation couldn't turn up an original hose.
Jeez Pete...folks are taking these things to their GRAVE before they'll sell to you...don'tcha get it ?
I may stand to be corrected here, but honestly I fear your plight will only be cured with a change of attitude, longer arms or shallower pockets.
Some of us have spent the best years of our lives collecting charished parts for our dream machine. Wheather it be a lucky find in a wet box under a table, or paying BIG bucks for "unobtainium".....NONE of us want to see our efforts and sacrifices shattered.
If nobody will sell to you because you can't abide by the constantly improving, pure & simple guidelines as laid out & agreed upon after thousands of hours of research and donated time, maybe it's time for a hotrod or ratrod in your life?
Absolutely NO offence against these cars...in fact they seem to have a great following AND with "somewhat less" guidelines than the subject we're on about.

<Optional reading>
...there's a reason folks enjoy standing in a river for hours....fishing with just a fly.
...some spend thousands on gear,
...many will create their own gear,
...some borrow the gear for free,
...some might be using old gear passed down from their fathers and getting a thrill,
YES they could get a can of salmon at the store or tie on 4 triple prong hooks & jig'em....how about a net or a stick of dynamite?
Instead, the true diehards adhere to a simple fly (often barbless) and thoroughly enjoy the sport.
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Old 12-17-2011, 05:44 PM   #77
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig lewis View Post
so peter, it seems much of the guidelines aren't fair for the "little" guy?
I'm trying to put this into perspective.
Now you say if i supply you with this original hose (that everyone else both living and deceased) wouldn't sell you, that you'll continue to push for equality between nos & mass produced offshore hoses, etc?
It seems if you could somehow change the guidelines for this to take place, it would make all our original hoses worthless hardened junk, including the one i sell you.
Boy this sure doesn't seem fair to the "big" guys or the "little" guys.

...by the way...i consider myself a "little" guy...still tons to learn... Except i don't feel like being included in your classification.

I've been reading your posts for years now about all the unfairness bestowed upon just your car at judging. Specifically it always seemed odd that your vast network of judging connections, hershey events, french lick, ebay & numerous swap meets across the nation couldn't turn up an original hose.
Jeez pete...folks are taking these things to their grave before they'll sell to you...don'tcha get it ?
I may stand to be corrected here, but honestly i fear your plight will only be cured with a change of attitude, longer arms or shallower pockets.
Some of us have spent the best years of our lives collecting charished parts for our dream machine. Wheather it be a lucky find in a wet box under a table, or paying big bucks for "unobtainium".....none of us want to see our efforts and sacrifices shattered.
If nobody will sell to you because you can't abide by the constantly improving, pure & simple guidelines as laid out & agreed upon after thousands of hours of research and donated time, maybe it's time for a hotrod or ratrod in your life?
Absolutely no offence against these cars...in fact they seem to have a great following and with "somewhat less" guidelines than the subject we're on about.

<optional reading>
...there's a reason folks enjoy standing in a river for hours....fishing with just a fly.
...some spend thousands on gear,
...many will create their own gear,
...some borrow the gear for free,
...some might be using old gear passed down from their fathers and getting a thrill,
yes they could get a can of salmon at the store or tie on 4 triple prong hooks & jig'em....how about a net or a stick of dynamite?
Instead, the true diehards adhere to a simple fly (often barbless) and thoroughly enjoy the sport.
"wow" the hammer !!..

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Old 12-17-2011, 10:28 PM   #78
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Craig Lewis , i have a doctor friend in Upstate Conn. restoring a 1931 Deluxe Roadster. and John with a 180A both cars heading for MARC meet in Wisc.2012 .Both men asked me if i ever come across a upper hose PLEASE get it for them... If you want i'll email you there phone number and you can deal with them direct. AS i said before i have 2 HENRY FORD AWARDS and really no need for a top hose.. There is nothing else but just show the car. Which i am doing. AS far as no one selling me a hose just think about it for a short while..How do you cut down your competition.Some people knew of my car going to the French Lick, right... people who has n.o.s. hoses right... did not sell them to me right... are you following me.... Either their car or a friend of theirs were in competition. So as far as the 2 guys needed the hoses i'll send you their phone numbers.. or better yet,,,Doc. GARY 1-860-490-2777 OR John 1-203-885-5387...the little guy who made it big.[TWICE]

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Old 12-17-2011, 11:12 PM   #79
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

My wife thinks I'm sick just because I like Model A's/
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:39 AM   #80
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My wife thinks I'm sick just because I like Model A's/
Your wife has the symtoms mixed up. Your sick if you don't like Model A's.
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Old 12-18-2011, 03:04 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peters180a/170b View Post
Craig Lewis , i have a doctor friend in Upstate Conn. restoring a 1931 Deluxe Roadster. and John with a 180A both cars heading for MARC meet in Wisc.2012 .Both men asked me if i ever come across a upper hose PLEASE get it for them... If you want i'll email you there phone number and you can deal with them direct. AS i said before i have 2 HENRY FORD AWARDS and really no need for a top hose.. There is nothing else but just show the car. Which i am doing. AS far as no one selling me a hose just think about it for a short while..How do you cut down your competition.Some people knew of my car going to the French Lick, right... people who has n.o.s. hoses right... did not sell them to me right... are you following me.... Either their car or a friend of theirs were in competition. So as far as the 2 guys needed the hoses i'll send you their phone numbers.. or better yet,,,Doc. GARY 1-860-490-2777 OR John 1-203-885-5387...the little guy who made it big.[TWICE]
Pete you're a wealth of information.
Who would have though that an organized effort was in place to withhold NOS parts from certain individuals? I think you hit it smack dab on the head!
Just to show I'm not plotting against anyone by withholding parts, I'll consider selling my hose
Which of your friends do you suppose should get first dibs? To be FAIR you should help me here Peter because you know them better than me...should I call the Doctor or the "little guy who made it big twice?"
Should I maybe avoid the little guy now that he's made it "big"?
Does the doctor have plenty of patients?
Here's a thought ...perhaps we should figure out a fair value for my hose.
... your earlier info might help....
Quote>>> I was offered first to look at a lg. top hose, used original that had a 1/2 split in it from the top down. Held water but who is crazy to buy it for $350.00 ..It sold at Hershey but i was not buying .<<<unquote
Gosh what do you think is fair for my undamaged original? (dark stripe hose in posting #34 of this thread)

In respect of Fordbarn rules we can take this offline, or Ebay or the classified section before it becomes a transaction.
For now I'd just like to hear what 2 serious contenders might pay.

Last edited by Craig Lewis; 12-19-2011 at 04:06 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 12-18-2011, 05:40 AM   #82
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

No problem... John is on Ford barn once in a while.. and since he owns a 180A the part should go to him...??? but I'll call up Doc Gary because his Deluxe Roadster in my eyes is a much better restored car. I hate to say it that way because #1 , the 180A has been in the family since NEW and a super original car restored somewhat incorrectly for a top fine point car.[close but comes up short even with the hoses]#2 Gary's Roadster been in the works for some 20 + years and has a much better chance /He has Bill Sturm upholstery ,new old stock fenders all around ,Stainless steel done by Doug Bruce , complete set of n.o.s. valve stems ,2 n.o.s. mirrors still in the box ,just to say this guy has been collecting for years. A nice quiet guy [not like me] but so is John but John does not listen ,,,he is in a rush and that's where you loose points. So flip a coin , its your part ...Thank you for the OFFER .... signing off. Christmas parties from now til the New Year and someone must cook.... :>)
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Old 12-18-2011, 08:37 AM   #83
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I would not know a reproduction from a NOS from a Chevy one cut to fit. But I do know when the troll rolls. Some interesting points have been brought up here. Can we see the end of fine point judging in the near future if changes are not made? Professional sports are constantly modifying rules for different reasons.

I hope between all of you nothing was taken personally. You all have moved along restorations around the world regardless of what the restorer's goal was. I feel lucky to have access to all this information.

Also I hope Pete's cooking does not poison anyone has he is using original giblets from the first Christmas in the turkey stuffing. He gottem off ebay because no one knew what they were.

Merry Christmas

Frank
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:06 AM   #84
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I would not know a reproduction from a NOS from a Chevy one cut to fit. But I do know when the troll rolls. Some interesting points have been brought up here. Can we see the end of fine point judging in the near future if changes are not made? Professional sports are constantly modifying rules for different reasons.

I hope between all of you nothing was taken personally. You all have moved along restorations around the world regardless of what the restorer's goal was. I feel lucky to have access to all this information.

Also I hope Pete's cooking does not poison anyone has he is using original giblets from the first Christmas in the turkey stuffing. He gottem off ebay because no one knew what they were.

Merry Christmas

Frank
Frank professional sports are changing because of players "cheating"! I doubt we will ever see 'steriods use' as an issue in fine-point judging!! Nor the use of Viagra during MARC competition either!!!

I have said my opinion before and I'll repeat it again, the demise of fine-point adjudication will not be from the sport itself, it will be from the lack of people capable of, -- or willing to perform an accurate & authentic-looking restoration. Most agree it is a lot of work and requires effort to learn and understand. Folks don't want to put forth that type of effort. That is why we continually see people come here asking questions on the easiest way to fix something. If you don't agree with me, then why do people want to make modern modifications or buy modern components (Alternators, Steering Gear Boxes, Transmissions, Brakes, Wheels, etc.) to replace the worn original item?

And for the record, I personally don't care if they modify their car but I don't like misinformation to be spread of why that mod was needed, ...which is often done by Model A owners to justify why they chose to bolt-on the modified piece to begin with!! If someone wants a hot rod or street rod, I'm totally OK with that as long as they are honest with other in what their car is. Sure this is unpopular in this society but sometimes being honest is not a bad thing!!
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:15 PM   #85
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The designated hitter rule had nothing to do with cheating. Helmet to helmet in the NFL because of injuries but I am not sure it is not inviting more ways to cheat. Excessive end-zone celebration? That had nothing to do with anything other than delaying the game. You are right that some are made to prevent cheating but some are made to make for a more interesting game. Others for safety.

I will say this is not the place to get the rules changed but what is said here cannot be discounted by board members. The internet makes it possible for everyone to be informed instantly. When I was a kid everyone was in a far off land. Now all the gurus live in my computer.

I agree with you on the modifications. In most instances they are not needed. But what do you tell a 90 year old guy with one artificial leg that went to hydraulic brakes?
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Old 12-18-2011, 02:20 PM   #86
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I agree with you on the modifications. In most instances they are not needed. But what do you tell a 90 year old guy with one artificial leg that went to hydraulic brakes?
ahh??...in most instances mods aren't needed but you could benefit from a couple to keep you driving?...fwiw,jm
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:21 AM   #87
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I'm one of those 'sick' guys as well, and to tell you the truth, the reason I do attempt fine point judging is just because of the fact that it is so hard. If it were easy, lots of folks would be doing it.

I do not agree with every judges assessment, nor with every researchers conclusions, but I damn sure appreciate the effort that they put forth. Any one can sit at the computer in their underwear and type in a comment or pass judgement, but it takes a certain degree of testicular altitude to actually put forth the effort to contribute in a measurable fashion. If no one is willing to hunt meat, we would all be vegetarians!

I agree with Brent's outlook on this matter and am particularly fond of Jim Mason's approach.

When involved in racing, I was able to attain one of only 99 numbers assigned for use in the world by NASCAR, and if you made the 'show' and were able to take the green flag in that event, you were one of only 42 guys in the world to be able to assemble what was required to 'bang loud pedals' with the big boys. From green flag to checkered flag all the participants competed with athletic pit stops and mental gymnastics and hard nosed banging on the track. All the spectators were able to contribute was drinking, hollering and booing!

There are few if any of the120,000 spectators that could even begin to understand the degree of pride felt by ALL the competitors who put forth the effort to be able to participate. The longer the race, the faster the race and the harder the competition, the more satisfaction was felt, even by the last place finisher.

Here is my favorite quote regarding this issue of
'is it worth the trouble / should we lower the standards':by Teddy Roosevelt.

“It is not the critic who counts, not the person who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes up short again and again because there is no effort without error and shortcomings; but who actually strives to do the deeds, who knows the great devotion; who spends himself in a worthy cause. Who at the least knows in the end the high achievement of triumph or at worst, if he fails while daring greatly, knows that his place will never be with those timid and cold souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

I appreciate all you guys who do research and share, and those that try hard to acquire original parts in not only an attempt at a correct restoration, but to contribute to the preservation of history by one of the later, but larger contributors to the Industrial Revolution in the greatest country in the world! His works and records deserve to be preserved in an accurate and detailed manner!
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Old 12-19-2011, 08:18 AM   #88
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

It's a fact that the person with the biggest wallet will always have the best chance to win. If someone were to offer $5000.00 for hoses and belt, they will get them, $10,000 for a battery it will show up. I remember as a kid entering the soap box derby. As an entrant you were to built the car. Not your dad, not the local body shop, you! One of the cars that entered was a form fitting fiberglass car that when the driver sat in it the helmet fitted into the body. The shape, paint, and finish were as good as any fabricator working on a concours car. The 12 year old entrant signed a paper declaring he did it himself. When I was a little older I built scale R/C planes. The first ones at the shows you could see how the builder took everyday items and turned them into "scale" parts. Heater hose for tires, carved wood heads for the pilots. When I stopped the only chance you had was to own a machine shop or have the bucks to have one build the parts for you. Now with Model A's and my son trying to build one for fine point, we see that he doesn't have a chance in hell of doing well because we just don't have the money.

Is it right, is it wrong? I don't know, it just is what it is I guess. Every couple of months we have this discussion but it usually closer to a major Model A show.

Merry Christmas
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:42 AM   #89
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Mike and Will make excellent points. I am glad Will brought up NASCAR. In the old days the driver and mechanic were one and it was disastrous if you wrecked the car because then you had to find another way to get to work on Monday. Now one car probably spends more money at one race then the whole field did for the whole season. But a lot of people participate on different levels. I just like to appreciate someone that is enjoying the hobby on any level. The clubs make it all happen and in some way all members support the club.
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:58 AM   #90
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

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Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
Now with Model A's and my son trying to build one for fine point, we see that he doesn't have a chance in hell of doing well because we just don't have the money.

Merry Christmas
I must point out that his car is not being judged AGAINST other cars as in a race, or 'best of show' type judging. He is being judged to a standard. If he uses good workmanship, restores to the best of his abilities he will receive alot of credit. Go through the standards and judge his car, a part, or an assembly he has done. Start with full points, and subtract for what could be better. My guess is that 400 points is possible with out paying huge sums for a particular part. I don't remember what the cooling area's total points are, but say there are 35 points available. Radiator, fan shroud (if applicable), fan belt, fan, water pump, (are inlet and outlets in cooling?), hoses, hose clamps. IF he loses 2 points for repop hoses, but the rest is up to standard..then he gets 33 points for cooling. Say some other things could be better so the total is now 28 points. Thats 80%. He will get full points for accessories, because he doesn't have any. Carrying this to the whole car...80% of 500 is 400. 400 points in a national judging is something to be proud of for sure. 300 is too....(which is 21 points out of 35) and 300 is very doable by anyone. Will there be a 450 point car in the same judging? prolly, will they be able to say I did it myself? maybe. Will you son be able to say he did it hiself? you betcha....fwiw,jm
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:11 PM   #91
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Jim, I agree with your assessment 100% and a keyword I think folks need to pick up on is the word "restore".

My personal experiences are that I do not think one can receive 400 points unless 90+% of the entire vehicle is indeed original parts that have been restored, --not "replaced" no matter if it is with great quality reproduction. I am attaching a worksheet for a car we had in San Diego which shows the scoring in that area. Basically out of 15 points total in Area 3, it received 8.8 points towards the overall score of the car, --or 41% away from a perfect score in that particular area.

To tell a little more about the car, it actually had a Brasswork reproduction "show" radiator therefore it did receive a 50% points deduction in that section. The water pump was an original casting but with reproduction shaft and repro packing gland nut that had been lightly bead blasted to make it look somewhat 'aged' and the appearance of cast. (Naturally it did not have an indistinguishable look or it would have not received any point deduction but none the less, if time would have been spent on seeking an original to restore, the score would have shown much different in just that one section.) The pump-to-head gasket was a Black paper one available from A&L and the stud & nuts were originals correctly detailed. Because of the gland nut not being an original, this section received a 50% deduction. My opinion is the deduction is actually more severe than it appears simply because of the repro item was used even though the gasket appeared original, as were the hardware and the water pump housing.

The cooling fan was an original two-blade steel along with an unfinished castle nut & cotter however the fan belt was an old red cloth covered belt but not considered authentic. Therefore in that total area it received a 50% deduction too. The clamps were indeed originals that Dan Bixby re-cad plated along with original screws however the hoses were indeed reproductions. In that section it also received a 50% deduction for the total area and not pro-rated throughout that particular section of the entire area.

The water return pipe was indeed an original pipe however the seam was very vague probably more due to over-restoration (too thick of black paint) on our part rather than not being there. It since has been re-restored with no primer and less paint to allow the seam to be felt by a Judge's finger. The radiator mounting bolts were originals and the pads were ones we made out of cloth reinforced rubber sheeting. Those received full points in that area.

What I am pointing out is that the use of reproduction or unauthentic parts hurt you way more than what one would think based on score sheets I have received in the past few years, and it is much harder to obtain 400 points than it would initially appear if that is indeed the goal. In Mike and his son's situation, just going through the motions of "restoring" something trying to mimic that original look & function is greater than achieving 400 points!

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File Type: pdf JudgingSheets2011 - Cooling.pdf (83.2 KB, 28 views)
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:39 PM   #92
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I would like some one to post photos of the RED hoses. Good close-ups, as nice
as the ones Marco posted. Please!

Thanks, Dudley
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:29 PM   #93
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

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Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida View Post
Now with Model A's and my son trying to build one for fine point, we see that he doesn't have a chance in hell of doing well because we just don't have the money.
I highly recommend being patient with your son. I think he may teach you a valuable lesson. What is his end goal? Is it to BE the best or DO the best he can? I'll bet it's the latter and as such would deserve all the support possible. That doesn't mean doing it for him, nor does it mean throwing money at it whether you can afford it or not.

I have a friend I met back in 1989 at the age of 13. His grandfather had done a few cars over the years and did posses some notable talent. He had the remains of a '29 Roadster his grandson had a serious interest in restoring. The grandson took on the project doing the majority of work himself with mostly just guidance but certainly with help on some of the more difficult tasks like heavy duty metal work. About 1/3 through the project the grandson decided he wanted to strive for a level of authenticity suitable for judging. That idea didn't go over all that well but he won out. It was noted that much of the chassis such as the frame was already powder coated in gloss black over somewhat pitted surfaces (less than ideal) but there was no going back for a "redo". The young man did all the homework and hunting for restorable parts correct for the car. It was definitely tougher than using off-the-shelf parts but he was persistent and put in the time to find and restore what was needed.

The car was completed and taken to Dallas in 1992 about two months before his 16th birthday. The car received 430 points and an Award of Excellence. That is a SERIOUS accomplishment (at any age) and anyone that doesn't recognize it as such is foolish. It's important to note that the car didn't have a single NOS part on it.

Now as far as sports analogies, to me it's more like golf. Your primary competitor is YOU. First and foremost your goal is to do the very best you can at handling whatever comes your way. Most folks would rather have a great round or rounds and lose than have a mediocre performance and win by default.

So, please tell me just how well is "well" because it sounds like you have a different perception than I do. Many folks seem to think it's "all or nothing" so if they can't achieve a best of show or a Henry award then it will be a failure and therefore it isn't worth trying. That is a great excuse for folks that really don't want to try in the first place but shouldn't have any bearing on reality. An Award of Excellence requires 400 points. To achieve it requires time, patience, and persistence. To succeed at that or even come close IS SUCCESS! That is doing very "well" in my opinion.
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:53 PM   #94
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

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Jim, I agree with your assessment 100% and a keyword I think folks need to pick up on is the word "restore".

What I am pointing out is that the use of reproduction or unauthentic parts hurt you way more than what one would think based on score sheets I have received in the past few years, and it is much harder to obtain 400 points than it would initially appear if that is indeed the goal. In Mike and his son's situation, just going through the motions of "restoring" something trying to mimic that original look & function is greater than achieving 400 points!

.
Brent, Are you picking out the hardest hit area to make your point? Since you know the car intimately you must know if you had other areas with similar characteristics (percentage of repro parts) that were scored more liberally. I'll bet you could find more than one area where you actually received 80% or even more of the total score with similar use of repro parts. As I've said before it's human nature to cherry pick the worst for such discussions.

Before we fuel the fire further and scare of all the Mikes of the world I'll add one important fact. The car you are speaking of DID in fact achieve a MARC or Excellence.
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:33 PM   #95
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

I have to disagree with Mike. I restored my '29 Tudor and received a Henry Award in 2003 in Dearborn. I am not a wealthy man. The Marine Corps does not pay me enough! What I did was to study the Standards and parts lists, ask a lot of questions, study other fine point restorations, and try to do the best I could. I would carry a binder to shows to take notes and draw diagrams of what I need to do. I also try to attend as many swap meets as possible. You would be surprised as to what you can find at even small local meets. I was always the early bird, trying to get the worm and sometimes did. Sure, a lot is luck but I love to dig and scrounge. I never go to any swap meet without a copy of the Standards in my backpack. I hope that if nothing else, this post has encouraged folks to restore Model A's for fine point, not scare them away. If it is possible for the average Joe Blow like me to do it, it is possible for anyone. Mike, I hope that your son will continue to move forward with his vision of doing a fine point restoration. He will be glad he did.
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:45 PM   #96
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras View Post
Brent, Are you picking out the hardest hit area to make your point? Since you know the car intimately you must know if you had other areas with similar characteristics (percentage of repro parts) that were scored more liberally. I'll bet you could find more than one area where you actually received 80% or even more of the total score with similar use of repro parts. As I've said before it's human nature to cherry pick the worst for such discussions.

Before we fuel the fire further and scare of all the Mikes of the world I'll add one important fact. The car you are speaking of DID in fact achieve a MARC or Excellence.
I apologize because maybe my point was not all that clear. Yes it did receive a MARC of Excellence however the first time around it did not. The reason it did not IMHO was because it was initially cheaper for the customer to have us replace with 'repro' rather than to 'restore' original parts. That is my point that if someone will take the time to restore something original instead of writing a check for the best quality reproduction, it will score much higher even if the craftsmanship is not there.

Several years ago several of us (you included) had some discussions of whether a car rebuilt with the best-available reproduction parts could indeed score high enough to earn a MARC of Excellence award, ...and for what I have seen with 3 out of 5 cars entered into fine-point, that doesn't look like it can happen. The only reason I used this specific example was because Jim had mentioned Cooling. Other areas the car took deserved hits for repro parts too.

Also, the major difference between the 392 it scored at French Lick and the 408 it scored at S/D was the replacement of many small repro items in exchange for original items. Items such as terminal box, coil, seamed metal wiring conduit, hub caps & valve stems, brake rods, tail lamps, bumper clamps, shocks, door handles, etc. Admittedly, the car had many repro parts as it was never intended to be judged during the restoration however the owner decided to upgrade after entering it in shows. He will still continue drive it afterwards because the aestethics of the car have not changed, --only the authenticity of parts.

Now for the rest of the story as Paul Harvey would say. Currently he has decided to go after his 'Masters' (425 pts) which the car is in here getting all four fenders along with the hood replaced with restored originals, plus original body aprons and running boards exchanged. Also a new top & curtains to be installed on original bows, and with original hardware, & curtain light. Also swapping out fasteners for originals throughout the chassis & sheetmetal. Again, none of the parts are big ticket items but they do involve someone's labor to restore each item. For a home hobbyist restoring his own car, this should NOT cost a fortune for them to do!!
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:12 PM   #97
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Marco, GOOD point on # 95

I think you should build/restore the car to the ability that you have AND what
you want. The rubber and the fabric are tough items to get correct.

At times, in San Diego, the lighting could have been better during judging.
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:15 PM   #98
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Listen GARY , I want to be a Joe blow like you and turn out a car like yours!!! One thing i am glad is anyone scoring 480 gets a Henry ! We will see now how many cars will show up in Wisc 2012.. I bet double then the past few years... I know of 3 on a return trip for a second shot now that's its 480.... I have a question and maybe someone has the answer..There were 4 cars on display at the San Diego meet.. They received the MARC of Recognition Award [ NO point judging on these cars?] And if so they did not post the points?? And if not point judging did they or not receive the MASTER RESTORATION AWARD???425 and better[ I would say i hope there is site judging on these cars and the team agrees they all score above 425.. like pres. award in A.A.C.A]
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:13 PM   #99
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Pete, They way I read it is all the car needs is a Prior MARC of Excellence or Masters award to get the Recognition Award.. No Judging.. In other words "Show Up"..
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:36 PM   #100
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

in hopes of getting back to the 'spirit' of this thread, how do judges deal with consumable items such as wiring? even if i could find original, seems they would be a potential fire hazard. do the supplies that vendors (Sacramento) use rate well? really don't want to be in the business of 'hanging' originals just for points ...

same question for rubber grommets, etc.
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:02 PM   #101
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Good ??.. The Roadster you see does have Original wires, but with some small fraying in the outer wrap in a couple areas.. Now how would this be looked at in fine pont along side a good known reproduction set.. In other words, which would score better & why ??..
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:45 PM   #102
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Sometimes maybe we try to over-rationalize things in the adjudication process. Let's break this down to the most basics of basics. What is the specific intent of the evaluation (judging process)?


To me, the answer to that question is we are choosing an era of time EXACTLY as the vehicle was to roll out of the factory door with only a minor deviation or two (spare tire, etc.). Therefore aren't we looking to replicate a vehicle that looks EXACTLY the same as if it were to go back in time to that very moment?? The only thing that "levels up" what human error produced is the Judging Standards which is the rule book by which each vehicle is to be evaluated against (not other vehicles in the show). THEREFORE, if there is an original wiring harness that has frayed cloth, that is NOT how it came out of the factory and therefore it should receive a deduction. If there is a wiring harness that is similar in aesthetics but is not exactly the same, then it really should receive a deduction too IMHO.

Every Judge has their own opinion but mine is I will make less of a deduction for a worn original item than I would for a repro however I will give some credit towards an owner who has made an attempt to at least replicate what that item looked like originally when they started with a reproduction item.


So to answer your question it begs a return question first. What are YOU as the Restorer trying to achieve in your restoration effort? Is your quest to make it as aesthetically accurate as possible, ...or are you willing to compromise with wiring harnesses that are very close?? Remember, if man made it once, then is there any reason why it cannot be duplicated to exact details? The only limitation I can think of is if someone is unwilling to put forth the effort, and/or the financial investment necessary to fulfill that task. If it is truly because one or both of those excuses, then shouldn't there be a deduction because the goal of total accuracy was not met?


And BTW, the excuse about old wiring is really pretty lame. I own a couple of NOS harnesses and the condition of them would make them suitable candidates for use in a vehicle that would see limited usage. It would be up to me to decide whether I wanted to use the original wiring or take the easier route of using reproduction wiring.


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Old 01-02-2012, 11:05 AM   #103
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Reese View Post
in hopes of getting back to the 'spirit' of this thread, how do judges deal with consumable items such as wiring? even if i could find original, seems they would be a potential fire hazard. do the supplies that vendors (Sacramento) use rate well? really don't want to be in the business of 'hanging' originals just for points ...

same question for rubber grommets, etc.
I wouldn't run an unsafe harness whether it was repro or original. However assuming all new wiring is safe and all original wiring has issues is unrealistic. These things don't automatically spoil like food. They are either well preserved or not depending on how they were stored over all those years. The wiring below is fully flexible and looks like it was made yesterday except that it does NOT look like anything made in the last 50 years. Additionally all flag terminals are soldered (unlike new harnesses) making them more reliable. Similarly, all the rubber items (except tires, tubes, and windshield rubber) on my Roadster are original and pliable. I do have some original rubber items on the shelf that are only good as examples as they would likely shatter if I threw them down on the concrete!

With that said, do the very best you can with what's available. Keep hunting and if you find something better then use it. They don't deduct much for any single item these days so it won't be a huge hit. Twenty years ago a repro main harness was a 3-6 point hit but I doubt it would be more than 1-2 at most national meets today and no point loss at most regional meets.

I posted the last pic because I believe your Open Cab uses #4 & 5 although I don't recall for sure on the first generation doors. I you have the round pocket for a rubber on the bottom of the door it uses #5 there. #4 would be on the rear vertical surface.









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Old 01-02-2012, 03:34 PM   #104
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Default Re: So you want original rad hoses?

Again....
Does anybody have clear photos of the RED hoses?
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