So you want original rad hoses?

[Craig Lewis]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Craig Lewis , i have a doctor friend in Upstate Conn. restoring a 1931 Deluxe Roadster. and John with a 180A both cars heading for MARC meet in Wisc.2012 .Both men asked me if i ever come across a upper hose PLEASE get it for them... If you want i'll email you there phone number and you can deal with them direct. AS i said before i have 2 HENRY FORD AWARDS and really no need for a top hose.. There is nothing else but just show the car. Which i am doing. AS far as no one selling me a hose just think about it for a short while..How do you cut down your competition.Some people knew of my car going to the French Lick, right... people who has n.o.s. hoses right... did not sell them to me right... are you following me.... Either their car or a friend of theirs were in competition. So as far as the 2 guys needed the hoses i'll send you their phone numbers.. or better yet,,,Doc. GARY 1-860-490-2777 OR John 1-203-885-5387...the little guy who made it big.[TWICE]

Pete you're a wealth of information.
Who would have though that an organized effort was in place to withhold NOS parts from certain individuals? I think you hit it smack dab on the head!
Just to show I'm not plotting against anyone by withholding parts, I'll consider selling my hose
Which of your friends do you suppose should get first dibs? To be FAIR you should help me here Peter because you know them better than me...should I call the Doctor or the "little guy who made it big twice?"
Should I maybe avoid the little guy now that he's made it "big"?
Does the doctor have plenty of patients?
Here's a thought ...perhaps we should figure out a fair value for my hose.
... your earlier info might help....
Quote>>> I was offered first to look at a lg. top hose, used original that had a 1/2 split in it from the top down. Held water but who is crazy to buy it for $350.00 ..It sold at Hershey but i was not buying .<<<unquote
Gosh what do you think is fair for my undamaged original? (dark stripe hose in posting #34 of this thread)

In respect of Fordbarn rules we can take this offline, or Ebay or the classified section before it becomes a transaction.
For now I'd just like to hear what 2 serious contenders might pay.

[peters180a/170b]

No problem... John is on Ford barn once in a while.. and since he owns a 180A the part should go to him...??? but I'll call up Doc Gary because his Deluxe Roadster in my eyes is a much better restored car. I hate to say it that way because #1 , the 180A has been in the family since NEW and a super original car restored somewhat incorrectly for a top fine point car.[close but comes up short even with the hoses]#2 Gary's Roadster been in the works for some 20 + years and has a much better chance /He has Bill Sturm upholstery ,new old stock fenders all around ,Stainless steel done by Doug Bruce , complete set of n.o.s. valve stems ,2 n.o.s. mirrors still in the box ,just to say this guy has been collecting for years. A nice quiet guy [not like me] but so is John but John does not listen ,,,he is in a rush and that's where you loose points. So flip a coin , its your part ...Thank you for the OFFER .... signing off. Christmas parties from now til the New Year and someone must cook.... :>)

[Frank Miller]

I would not know a reproduction from a NOS from a Chevy one cut to fit. But I do know when the troll rolls. Some interesting points have been brought up here. Can we see the end of fine point judging in the near future if changes are not made? Professional sports are constantly modifying rules for different reasons.

I hope between all of you nothing was taken personally. You all have moved along restorations around the world regardless of what the restorer's goal was. I feel lucky to have access to all this information.

Also I hope Pete's cooking does not poison anyone has he is using original giblets from the first Christmas in the turkey stuffing. He gottem off ebay because no one knew what they were.

Merry Christmas

Frank

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Frank Miller

I would not know a reproduction from a NOS from a Chevy one cut to fit. But I do know when the troll rolls. Some interesting points have been brought up here. Can we see the end of fine point judging in the near future if changes are not made? Professional sports are constantly modifying rules for different reasons.

I hope between all of you nothing was taken personally. You all have moved along restorations around the world regardless of what the restorer's goal was. I feel lucky to have access to all this information.

Also I hope Pete's cooking does not poison anyone has he is using original giblets from the first Christmas in the turkey stuffing. He gottem off ebay because no one knew what they were.

Merry Christmas

Frank

Frank professional sports are changing because of players "cheating"! I doubt we will ever see 'steriods use' as an issue in fine-point judging!! Nor the use of Viagra during MARC competition either!!!

I have said my opinion before and I'll repeat it again, the demise of fine-point adjudication will not be from the sport itself, it will be from the lack of people capable of, -- or willing to perform an accurate & authentic-looking restoration. Most agree it is a lot of work and requires effort to learn and understand. Folks don't want to put forth that type of effort. That is why we continually see people come here asking questions on the easiest way to fix something. If you don't agree with me, then why do people want to make modern modifications or buy modern components (Alternators, Steering Gear Boxes, Transmissions, Brakes, Wheels, etc.) to replace the worn original item?

And for the record, I personally don't care if they modify their car but I don't like misinformation to be spread of why that mod was needed, ...which is often done by Model A owners to justify why they chose to bolt-on the modified piece to begin with!! If someone wants a hot rod or street rod, I'm totally OK with that as long as they are honest with other in what their car is. Sure this is unpopular in this society but sometimes being honest is not a bad thing!!

[Frank Miller]

The designated hitter rule had nothing to do with cheating. Helmet to helmet in the NFL because of injuries but I am not sure it is not inviting more ways to cheat. Excessive end-zone celebration? That had nothing to do with anything other than delaying the game. You are right that some are made to prevent cheating but some are made to make for a more interesting game. Others for safety.

I will say this is not the place to get the rules changed but what is said here cannot be discounted by board members. The internet makes it possible for everyone to be informed instantly. When I was a kid everyone was in a far off land. Now all the gurus live in my computer.

I agree with you on the modifications. In most instances they are not needed. But what do you tell a 90 year old guy with one artificial leg that went to hydraulic brakes?

[Jim Mason]

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Originally Posted by Frank Miller

I agree with you on the modifications. In most instances they are not needed. But what do you tell a 90 year old guy with one artificial leg that went to hydraulic brakes?

ahh??...in most instances mods aren't needed but you could benefit from a couple to keep you driving?...fwiw,jm

[RockHillWill]

I'm one of those 'sick' guys as well, and to tell you the truth, the reason I do attempt fine point judging is just because of the fact that it is so hard. If it were easy, lots of folks would be doing it.

I do not agree with every judges assessment, nor with every researchers conclusions, but I damn sure appreciate the effort that they put forth. Any one can sit at the computer in their underwear and type in a comment or pass judgement, but it takes a certain degree of testicular altitude to actually put forth the effort to contribute in a measurable fashion. If no one is willing to hunt meat, we would all be vegetarians!

I agree with Brent's outlook on this matter and am particularly fond of Jim Mason's approach.

When involved in racing, I was able to attain one of only 99 numbers assigned for use in the world by NASCAR, and if you made the 'show' and were able to take the green flag in that event, you were one of only 42 guys in the world to be able to assemble what was required to 'bang loud pedals' with the big boys. From green flag to checkered flag all the participants competed with athletic pit stops and mental gymnastics and hard nosed banging on the track. All the spectators were able to contribute was drinking, hollering and booing!

There are few if any of the120,000 spectators that could even begin to understand the degree of pride felt by ALL the competitors who put forth the effort to be able to participate. The longer the race, the faster the race and the harder the competition, the more satisfaction was felt, even by the last place finisher.

Here is my favorite quote regarding this issue of
'is it worth the trouble / should we lower the standards':by Teddy Roosevelt.

“It is not the critic who counts, not the person who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes up short again and again because there is no effort without error and shortcomings; but who actually strives to do the deeds, who knows the great devotion; who spends himself in a worthy cause. Who at the least knows in the end the high achievement of triumph or at worst, if he fails while daring greatly, knows that his place will never be with those timid and cold souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

I appreciate all you guys who do research and share, and those that try hard to acquire original parts in not only an attempt at a correct restoration, but to contribute to the preservation of history by one of the later, but larger contributors to the Industrial Revolution in the greatest country in the world! His works and records deserve to be preserved in an accurate and detailed manner!

[Mike V. Florida]

It's a fact that the person with the biggest wallet will always have the best chance to win. If someone were to offer $5000.00 for hoses and belt, they will get them, $10,000 for a battery it will show up. I remember as a kid entering the soap box derby. As an entrant you were to built the car. Not your dad, not the local body shop, you! One of the cars that entered was a form fitting fiberglass car that when the driver sat in it the helmet fitted into the body. The shape, paint, and finish were as good as any fabricator working on a concours car. The 12 year old entrant signed a paper declaring he did it himself. When I was a little older I built scale R/C planes. The first ones at the shows you could see how the builder took everyday items and turned them into "scale" parts. Heater hose for tires, carved wood heads for the pilots. When I stopped the only chance you had was to own a machine shop or have the bucks to have one build the parts for you. Now with Model A's and my son trying to build one for fine point, we see that he doesn't have a chance in hell of doing well because we just don't have the money.

Is it right, is it wrong? I don't know, it just is what it is I guess. Every couple of months we have this discussion but it usually closer to a major Model A show.

Merry Christmas

[Frank Miller]

Mike and Will make excellent points. I am glad Will brought up NASCAR. In the old days the driver and mechanic were one and it was disastrous if you wrecked the car because then you had to find another way to get to work on Monday. Now one car probably spends more money at one race then the whole field did for the whole season. But a lot of people participate on different levels. I just like to appreciate someone that is enjoying the hobby on any level. The clubs make it all happen and in some way all members support the club.

[Jim Mason]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Now with Model A's and my son trying to build one for fine point, we see that he doesn't have a chance in hell of doing well because we just don't have the money.

Merry Christmas

I must point out that his car is not being judged AGAINST other cars as in a race, or 'best of show' type judging. He is being judged to a standard. If he uses good workmanship, restores to the best of his abilities he will receive alot of credit. Go through the standards and judge his car, a part, or an assembly he has done. Start with full points, and subtract for what could be better. My guess is that 400 points is possible with out paying huge sums for a particular part. I don't remember what the cooling area's total points are, but say there are 35 points available. Radiator, fan shroud (if applicable), fan belt, fan, water pump, (are inlet and outlets in cooling?), hoses, hose clamps. IF he loses 2 points for repop hoses, but the rest is up to standard..then he gets 33 points for cooling. Say some other things could be better so the total is now 28 points. Thats 80%. He will get full points for accessories, because he doesn't have any. Carrying this to the whole car...80% of 500 is 400. 400 points in a national judging is something to be proud of for sure. 300 is too....(which is 21 points out of 35) and 300 is very doable by anyone. Will there be a 450 point car in the same judging? prolly, will they be able to say I did it myself? maybe. Will you son be able to say he did it hiself? you betcha....fwiw,jm

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Jim, I agree with your assessment 100% and a keyword I think folks need to pick up on is the word "restore".

My personal experiences are that I do not think one can receive 400 points unless 90+% of the entire vehicle is indeed original parts that have been restored, --not "replaced" no matter if it is with great quality reproduction. I am attaching a worksheet for a car we had in San Diego which shows the scoring in that area. Basically out of 15 points total in Area 3, it received 8.8 points towards the overall score of the car, --or 41% away from a perfect score in that particular area.

To tell a little more about the car, it actually had a Brasswork reproduction "show" radiator therefore it did receive a 50% points deduction in that section. The water pump was an original casting but with reproduction shaft and repro packing gland nut that had been lightly bead blasted to make it look somewhat 'aged' and the appearance of cast. (Naturally it did not have an indistinguishable look or it would have not received any point deduction but none the less, if time would have been spent on seeking an original to restore, the score would have shown much different in just that one section.) The pump-to-head gasket was a Black paper one available from A&L and the stud & nuts were originals correctly detailed. Because of the gland nut not being an original, this section received a 50% deduction. My opinion is the deduction is actually more severe than it appears simply because of the repro item was used even though the gasket appeared original, as were the hardware and the water pump housing.

The cooling fan was an original two-blade steel along with an unfinished castle nut & cotter however the fan belt was an old red cloth covered belt but not considered authentic. Therefore in that total area it received a 50% deduction too. The clamps were indeed originals that Dan Bixby re-cad plated along with original screws however the hoses were indeed reproductions. In that section it also received a 50% deduction for the total area and not pro-rated throughout that particular section of the entire area.

The water return pipe was indeed an original pipe however the seam was very vague probably more due to over-restoration (too thick of black paint) on our part rather than not being there. It since has been re-restored with no primer and less paint to allow the seam to be felt by a Judge's finger. The radiator mounting bolts were originals and the pads were ones we made out of cloth reinforced rubber sheeting. Those received full points in that area.

What I am pointing out is that the use of reproduction or unauthentic parts hurt you way more than what one would think based on score sheets I have received in the past few years, and it is much harder to obtain 400 points than it would initially appear if that is indeed the goal. In Mike and his son's situation, just going through the motions of "restoring" something trying to mimic that original look & function is greater than achieving 400 points!

.

[d.j. moordigian]

I would like some one to post photos of the RED hoses. Good close-ups, as nice
as the ones Marco posted. Please!

Thanks, Dudley

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Now with Model A's and my son trying to build one for fine point, we see that he doesn't have a chance in hell of doing well because we just don't have the money.

I highly recommend being patient with your son. I think he may teach you a valuable lesson. What is his end goal? Is it to BE the best or DO the best he can? I'll bet it's the latter and as such would deserve all the support possible. That doesn't mean doing it for him, nor does it mean throwing money at it whether you can afford it or not.

I have a friend I met back in 1989 at the age of 13. His grandfather had done a few cars over the years and did posses some notable talent. He had the remains of a '29 Roadster his grandson had a serious interest in restoring. The grandson took on the project doing the majority of work himself with mostly just guidance but certainly with help on some of the more difficult tasks like heavy duty metal work. About 1/3 through the project the grandson decided he wanted to strive for a level of authenticity suitable for judging. That idea didn't go over all that well but he won out. It was noted that much of the chassis such as the frame was already powder coated in gloss black over somewhat pitted surfaces (less than ideal) but there was no going back for a "redo". The young man did all the homework and hunting for restorable parts correct for the car. It was definitely tougher than using off-the-shelf parts but he was persistent and put in the time to find and restore what was needed.

The car was completed and taken to Dallas in 1992 about two months before his 16th birthday. The car received 430 points and an Award of Excellence. That is a SERIOUS accomplishment (at any age) and anyone that doesn't recognize it as such is foolish. It's important to note that the car didn't have a single NOS part on it.

Now as far as sports analogies, to me it's more like golf. Your primary competitor is YOU. First and foremost your goal is to do the very best you can at handling whatever comes your way. Most folks would rather have a great round or rounds and lose than have a mediocre performance and win by default.

So, please tell me just how well is "well" because it sounds like you have a different perception than I do. Many folks seem to think it's "all or nothing" so if they can't achieve a best of show or a Henry award then it will be a failure and therefore it isn't worth trying. That is a great excuse for folks that really don't want to try in the first place but shouldn't have any bearing on reality. An Award of Excellence requires 400 points. To achieve it requires time, patience, and persistence. To succeed at that or even come close IS SUCCESS! That is doing very "well" in my opinion.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Jim, I agree with your assessment 100% and a keyword I think folks need to pick up on is the word "restore".

What I am pointing out is that the use of reproduction or unauthentic parts hurt you way more than what one would think based on score sheets I have received in the past few years, and it is much harder to obtain 400 points than it would initially appear if that is indeed the goal. In Mike and his son's situation, just going through the motions of "restoring" something trying to mimic that original look & function is greater than achieving 400 points!

.

Brent, Are you picking out the hardest hit area to make your point? Since you know the car intimately you must know if you had other areas with similar characteristics (percentage of repro parts) that were scored more liberally. I'll bet you could find more than one area where you actually received 80% or even more of the total score with similar use of repro parts. As I've said before it's human nature to cherry pick the worst for such discussions.

Before we fuel the fire further and scare of all the Mikes of the world I'll add one important fact. The car you are speaking of DID in fact achieve a MARC or Excellence.

[Gary Karr]

I have to disagree with Mike. I restored my '29 Tudor and received a Henry Award in 2003 in Dearborn. I am not a wealthy man. The Marine Corps does not pay me enough! What I did was to study the Standards and parts lists, ask a lot of questions, study other fine point restorations, and try to do the best I could. I would carry a binder to shows to take notes and draw diagrams of what I need to do. I also try to attend as many swap meets as possible. You would be surprised as to what you can find at even small local meets. I was always the early bird, trying to get the worm and sometimes did. Sure, a lot is luck but I love to dig and scrounge. I never go to any swap meet without a copy of the Standards in my backpack. I hope that if nothing else, this post has encouraged folks to restore Model A's for fine point, not scare them away. If it is possible for the average Joe Blow like me to do it, it is possible for anyone. Mike, I hope that your son will continue to move forward with his vision of doing a fine point restoration. He will be glad he did.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Brent, Are you picking out the hardest hit area to make your point? Since you know the car intimately you must know if you had other areas with similar characteristics (percentage of repro parts) that were scored more liberally. I'll bet you could find more than one area where you actually received 80% or even more of the total score with similar use of repro parts. As I've said before it's human nature to cherry pick the worst for such discussions.

Before we fuel the fire further and scare of all the Mikes of the world I'll add one important fact. The car you are speaking of DID in fact achieve a MARC or Excellence.

I apologize because maybe my point was not all that clear. Yes it did receive a MARC of Excellence however the first time around it did not. The reason it did not IMHO was because it was initially cheaper for the customer to have us replace with 'repro' rather than to 'restore' original parts. That is my point that if someone will take the time to restore something original instead of writing a check for the best quality reproduction, it will score much higher even if the craftsmanship is not there.

Several years ago several of us (you included) had some discussions of whether a car rebuilt with the best-available reproduction parts could indeed score high enough to earn a MARC of Excellence award, ...and for what I have seen with 3 out of 5 cars entered into fine-point, that doesn't look like it can happen. The only reason I used this specific example was because Jim had mentioned Cooling. Other areas the car took deserved hits for repro parts too.

Also, the major difference between the 392 it scored at French Lick and the 408 it scored at S/D was the replacement of many small repro items in exchange for original items. Items such as terminal box, coil, seamed metal wiring conduit, hub caps & valve stems, brake rods, tail lamps, bumper clamps, shocks, door handles, etc. Admittedly, the car had many repro parts as it was never intended to be judged during the restoration however the owner decided to upgrade after entering it in shows. He will still continue drive it afterwards because the aestethics of the car have not changed, --only the authenticity of parts.

Now for the rest of the story as Paul Harvey would say. Currently he has decided to go after his 'Masters' (425 pts) which the car is in here getting all four fenders along with the hood replaced with restored originals, plus original body aprons and running boards exchanged. Also a new top & curtains to be installed on original bows, and with original hardware, & curtain light. Also swapping out fasteners for originals throughout the chassis & sheetmetal. Again, none of the parts are big ticket items but they do involve someone's labor to restore each item. For a home hobbyist restoring his own car, this should NOT cost a fortune for them to do!!

[d.j. moordigian]

Marco, GOOD point on # 95

I think you should build/restore the car to the ability that you have AND what
you want. The rubber and the fabric are tough items to get correct.

At times, in San Diego, the lighting could have been better during judging.

[peters180a/170b]

Listen GARY , I want to be a Joe blow like you and turn out a car like yours!!! One thing i am glad is anyone scoring 480 gets a Henry ! We will see now how many cars will show up in Wisc 2012.. I bet double then the past few years... I know of 3 on a return trip for a second shot now that's its 480.... I have a question and maybe someone has the answer..There were 4 cars on display at the San Diego meet.. They received the MARC of Recognition Award [ NO point judging on these cars?] And if so they did not post the points?? And if not point judging did they or not receive the MASTER RESTORATION AWARD???425 and better[ I would say i hope there is site judging on these cars and the team agrees they all score above 425.. like pres. award in A.A.C.A]

[Fred]

Pete, They way I read it is all the car needs is a Prior MARC of Excellence or Masters award to get the Recognition Award.. No Judging.. In other words "Show Up"..

[Charles Reese]

in hopes of getting back to the 'spirit' of this thread, how do judges deal with consumable items such as wiring? even if i could find original, seems they would be a potential fire hazard. do the supplies that vendors (Sacramento) use rate well? really don't want to be in the business of 'hanging' originals just for points ...

same question for rubber grommets, etc.