So you want original rad hoses?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

My personal perception in the ones that are argumentative with this is some folks have difficulty seeing the forest for the trees. Using the initial topic of this thread as a great example, for some, they looked at those two hoses on eBay and said they are NOT correct hoses and could not be used in fine-point competition. To others, they saw those hoses as a basis for modification to become authentic looking Model A hoses. Some only have the creativity to see the forest while others have the ability to see the individual tree in that forest.

In another post someone made a comment that making a facsimile of original door straps would not be something the average person could make at home. I think that statement is very accurate because the average person has trouble creating something as simple as a door strap however it can be done at home by a person who uses some good old ingenuity and their brain. Since rubber parts are mentioned, and using tires as an example, some folks can take a new set of tires and detail them where they appear very similar in appearance to an originally installed tire while others only unwrap them from their plastic and install them on the rim. Where this difference in this is that some folks do not see detail. Repop rubber is fine however most pull it out of the plastic bag and install it complaining that is the best available. Others go find the original print showing the details (shapes & sizes) and then modify the repop piece of rubber to have those correct radii and shapes, and then lightly blast the rubber where it mimics the original look. Some think this is absurd while others enjoy the creativity and focus it takes to replicate something in exacting detail. So, which side of the fence can you play on??


.

[Jim Mason]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

Jim,

You can't compare repop rubber parts to a vintque quail, that is apples to cucumbers.

Now, say you don't want to be in touring class, you want to be in fine point. How
do you judge repop tires? Would it be the same as the rest of the repop rubber
parts,.....including hoses and belts?
Thanks, Dudley

i was using reducto absurdum (sp?) taking an argument to an extreme to show a point. I was using it like 'if you give a mouse a cookie'. If you allow repop hoses, then you have to allow repop fan belts. If you allow belts, then tires. If tires then what? As for judging tires...if you can make repop look like new original I'd give full points. If it looks like repop then fewer points. I have a set of s3's...how many points for those? If i can make them look like the orginials..full points. If not...fewer....fwiw,jm

[peters180a/170b]

Well everyone has their ideas on how to judge FINE POINT cars [and that's why i don't do it] .When showing the 180A at the French Lick the car parked along side me had a pit crew [like NASCAR] changing the belt, hoses ,spark plugs... Even at the Owner / judge meeting someone asked if they were going to have time doing that[replace the hoses]... What does that tell you..??? The guy is driving in with hardly no water to replace the hoses? And the original hoses that he plans on putting on are shot and will not hold water. You want to end this...??This is my idea ,,from now on ALL FINE POINT CARS "MUST DRIVE IN AND THE OWNER have NO TIME to change anything NOTHING and right after judging comes the tour Again right then and now..Lets see how many ORIGINAL FAN BELTS are on the cars and HOSES.. and Spark plug good enough to fire the engine up and run??? LOOKS is good but to run that's another question...Jim [VINTQUE QUAIL] please that's AREA16: Accessories and really no one should have them on...they are just looking for trouble in fine point judging. The part would need to be perfect original restored and if you don't have any on the car you are better off. I tell everyone keep it simple. AS far as the tires well, GOODYEAR is more correct then Firestone and if one takes the time like Brent said to detail the tires then its ok. Correct color for the flag [and on some the red ring around the tire.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Jeez Pete, you and your preconcieved notions of how evaluations should be done, ....yet you won't "give back" to the very sport that you are taking from. Using your mindset, suppose someone else came along and said "The vehicle owner must do his own paint & upholstery work on his car to be eligible for a 'Henry' award!" That would surely lower the costs of building a F/P Model A, wouldn't it , --and make it fair for the "little guy". If that happened, could you compete with your car???

Now think first before you start typing because I can think of several cars whose owner has done both tasks and earned a 'Henry'. Matter of fact, doesn't that describe the highest scoring Model A in the country? If so, then that proves this rule would be a good idea! Afterall, we are the Model A RESTORERS Club, --not the Model A HIRE-IT-DONE Club!
.

[peters180a/170b]

Now i am aaathinking ,My first restoration was a 1931 Tudor[not for show just for drive] .Turned out meeting a still
to this day ,friend who owned a body shop and showed me the trade[somewhat]. I Did all the sandblasting , metal prep , prime ,,and not the final paint coat complete chassic work all but upholstery..That was before the Judging Standards and you were still in high school. Restored 3 more "A' s after that and a few more Fords and non-Fords. Big deal right [NOT] ! I restored a standard roadster with most of the work done be my friend and me. Some Final steps were done by a shop who restored top show cars before.It took me 3 tries before i won a Henry Ford award with that car. VERY FEW if even a handful fully restored their own car to win a Henry without any help.. I for one think no one did ! You must have some friends in the plating , painting ,engine building and upholstery business. I happen to give back to the HOBBY [ITS NOT A SPORT TO ME]. I pay my dues to 3 National clubs [how many here belong to all 3?] and then locale chapters. Pay to attend meets [club make money on that deal],i judge A,A,C,A, and locale meets. And not get paid like everyone else. So don't tell me i don't give back....I catered food to 130+ people for 13 years for a club picnic and did you ever figure how much money and time just to be a judge at Hershey ??? I plan on 4 meets this year ,,,you do the math..I guess that's why you are not busy [ITS THE RESTORER CLUB and NOT HIRE ME CLUB...L.O.L.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Again, you are playing the 'shell game' with me Pete! I said the new rule is the owner must do their own Paint and Upholstery. I did NOT say the rule included engine building, or plating, or ??. See, you are again trying to bend this hypothetical new rule to make it fit your circumstances. Yes it is a SPORT because you chose to be in competition with your vehicle. Look up the definition of 'sport'.

And yes you may have given back to the hobby in general but that is not what I said. We have all discussed this before about why you don't assist with the Judging process and I think many have stated that you are taking away fom the process without giving the very thing you are taking back in. The math is just what it is. You wanna Play, ...you gotta Pay!!


Oh, and with regard to us "not being busy", since I cannot tell if you are making a statement or being sarcastic, I will just say that for the ones who have actually been to my shop recently, they will tell you that statement is totally false, however one must also realize that by comparison we restore very few fine-point specific cars. Now, go ahead and make your final rebuttal towards me and then lets get back to the original thread topic.

[Jim Mason]

I don't care what the other guy does. I don't care that the other guy has more nos, or less than i do. I don't care if the other guy play the system to get more points. If they are that shallow...so what? it's their problem, not mine. If they score 500 points by swapping parts, and i score 400 so what? I scored 400. If they aren't allowed to swap parts and score 400 and i score 400...so what? I scored 400 points. I just want to see how my car scores against a very high standard. Lower the standard and I won't care...i just won't enter my car. if i want a lower standard i'll enter touring. no offense meant to touring. excellent cars, excellent job..just different standard that i'm not interested in. If you are arguing that by allowing repop hoses (or other parts) the number of fine point cars will increase, i disagree. I proposed at the mafca jsc to allow a metal propellor type two blade fan. it was approved by both jsc's and is not part of the new standards. I honestly don't believe it will make the least bit of difference in the number of cars in fine point. As for the quail...please read my previous..i was taking the argument to the absurd limit. If you want full points in accessories, don't put any on the car. The clubs now allow a none original fan. next you want to allow non original looking hoses...and fan belts...and door check straps...and spark plugs..and and and and. where would it end? ...fwiw,jm

[peters180a/170b]

Brent , I don't know about laws in Tennessee but here if you get caught spraying paint without a booth and special vents ,filters , fire safety permits , building permits, zone codes you will be fined and locked up!!!!!!! So as far as around here there's no back yard in the garage spraying.! EPA BOYS will be right up your sweet butt! A neighbor removed some bushes and trees[3-4 inch thick tree trunk] and was fined $150,000 or replace the 100 or so bushes and trees..It was in the News Papers... Shit you get close to wet lands and forget about it. Your ass is in jail with a guy named Bubba.. Jim,,, hoses and fan belts will do .that's it.. thank you...Can i ask anyone ..when was the last time you seen n.o.s. top hose for sale for a 1930/31 "A"??? Or for that matter a n.o.s. fan belt that CAN BE USED on a running car??? You have seen spark plugs and most door check straps . I picked up another pair of deluxe door straps at Hershey for $50.00 and i had a pair of n.o.s. 30/31 standard open car ones for sale on the table for $50.00 [no buyers]. So Jim i'll go back to my original request..ALL Fine Point cars must run on what they have at time of judging...NO PIT CREWS and NO last minute part changing....Its for the little guy's

[Craig Lewis]

Peter if I sell you my extra 30-31 upper hose at a reasonable cost, would you still argue for equal score of the reproduction hoses?
[] yes?
[] no?

[dlshady]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Can i ask anyone ..when was the last time you seen n.o.s. top hose for sale for a 1930/31 "A"???

I sent Dave Lopes two of them along with two sets of bottom hoses back around February of last year, and included an original box to boot. They're out there if you look in the right places, I promise you that. And yes, they're rock hard but you'd be surprised what a little while in boiling water will do for them.

This whole argument about allowing reproduction parts because the original stuff is tough to find is BS, plain and simple. If that were the case then we could all order a couple grand worth of stuff from A&L and score 500 points. Then we'd all have our very own Henry. How cool would that be?

It's been posted more than once, but for those who missed it the first time, if a reproduction part is indistinguishable from an original in every way shape and form then it should receive full points. The problem here is that I don't think I've EVER seen a repro part that was absolutely indistinguishable from an original. Even the nicest stuff on the market still has it's differences when inspected. And to keep this on topic, I think Stevie Wonder could tell the differences in the repro radiator hoses so there's no reason to even be having this discussion. They're visibly different. Period...


Just my 2 cents....
Deron

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by dlshady

I sent Dave Lopes two of them along with two sets of bottom hoses back around February of last year, and included an original box to boot. They're out there if you look in the right places, I promise you that. And yes, they're rock hard but you'd be surprised what a little while in boiling water will do for them.


Even the nicest stuff on the market still has it's differences when inspected. And to keep this on topic, I think Stevie Wonder could tell the differences in the repro radiator hoses so there's no reason to even be having this discussion. They're visibly different. Period...

Deron

Point well said and i am in total agreement, I have NOS Hoses for 28-29 and for 30-31 and paid good and want full points and DONT believe the REPO hoses should get the same and also for the fan belt..If you look hard and did the work to find them then you get the points...imho!

[Fred]

I also have TWO sets of each 28/29 30/31 hoses, NOS in the box 3x plugs, ETC, ETC.. A good but used red fan belt... Its out there you just have to find it....

[Jim Mason]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

This is why they should allow a good reproduction hose for show.. Anyway another few years no one will care oneway or another!

the argument changes too fast to keep up. first allow repop hoses, and to paraphrase 'fine point is dying', then allow hoses and belts and plugs and 'run what you brung'.

Again taking it to the extreme...where do you draw the line? can't change hoses/plugs etc? or can't wipe up the oil leak? can't remove the fingerprints? can't wipe off the oil leak? What about road dirt from driving it? It's allowed already. what about over greasing? (yes, i am taking it to the absurd again, but it is to show my point.)

if you don't want to be judged under the current standards...don't. if you do, then accept the standards. if you want to change the standards...make the proposal to the jsc's. i would rather see a run what you brung, but if it is allowed...so what? I won't swap parts before the judging, but i'm not going say somebody else can't. my car is not being compared to them anyway, it's being compared to a known standard. If they play the system, and score 500 and I score 400...so what? I scored 400 against a higher standard.

As to epa, local and state laws/rules etc? why do yout not want 'them' telling you what you can and can't do, but then you want to tell others what they can and can't do?

(correction to my last post, that should read the repop fans ARE allowed into fine point)

[peters180a/170b]

AS far as EPA and their rules they can suck a egg! Why ARE repop fans allow in fine point judging??? there plenty around.. I have run original fans since 1974 and still do! As for all the other johnny come lately sellers where were you guy's when i put up a wanted ad for N.O.S. Radiator hoses ???? dlshady ,,you did not answer my ad??? LONG BEFORE you sold them to Dave....!Craig Lewis yes and yes.....i did have a upper hose,it went to Steve C. as i said it will look out of place on my car but not on his.[it was FREE]. i still would argue because i want to level the playing field for the small guy. And Mark let me guess where you bought the hoses from ???? I hear you were dealing a lot and paying big money for parts when Dave L. was still with us... He never answered my ad too! and that was before French Lick! P.S. Do i need a top radiator hose at this point?? "NO" not really I HAVE A HENRY [well 2 of them] ,,i am thinking of the other guys who are trying ...

[Jim Mason]

repop fans are 'allowed' in the 14 required elements for fine point...to level the field for the little guy. There is a points deduction if you have repop. Repop hoses are 'allowed' in fine point...to level the field for the little guy. The is a points deduction if you have repop.

the reason the repop fans are 'allowed' is that i got tired of arguing online with the people that wanted it and proposed it at a jsc meeting(the argument was 'if an original fan failed and someone was hurt the clubs would be liable', and 'i won't enter fine point because the fans are unsafe and won't use one'. my feeling at the time was 'if you don't play the game, you should try to make the rules'. I've not heard of anyone new in fine point because of the change. it did stop the argument) . .fwiw,jm

[Craig Lewis]

So Peter, it seems much of the guidelines aren't fair for the "little" guy?
I'm trying to put this into perspective.
Now you say if I supply you with this original hose (that everyone else both living and deceased) wouldn't sell you, that you'll continue to push for equality between NOS & mass produced offshore hoses, etc?
It seems if you could somehow change the guidelines for this to take place, it would make ALL our original hoses worthless hardened junk, INCLUDING the one I sell YOU.
Boy this sure doesn't seem fair to the "big" guys OR the "little" guys.

...by the way...I consider myself a "little" guy...still TONS to learn... except I don't feel like being included in your classification.

I've been reading your posts for years now about all the unfairness bestowed upon JUST your car at judging. Specifically it always seemed odd that your vast network of judging connections, Hershey events, French lick, Ebay & numerous swap meets across the nation couldn't turn up an original hose.
Jeez Pete...folks are taking these things to their GRAVE before they'll sell to you...don'tcha get it ?
I may stand to be corrected here, but honestly I fear your plight will only be cured with a change of attitude, longer arms or shallower pockets.
Some of us have spent the best years of our lives collecting charished parts for our dream machine. Wheather it be a lucky find in a wet box under a table, or paying BIG bucks for "unobtainium".....NONE of us want to see our efforts and sacrifices shattered.
If nobody will sell to you because you can't abide by the constantly improving, pure & simple guidelines as laid out & agreed upon after thousands of hours of research and donated time, maybe it's time for a hotrod or ratrod in your life?
Absolutely NO offence against these cars...in fact they seem to have a great following AND with "somewhat less" guidelines than the subject we're on about.

<Optional reading>
...there's a reason folks enjoy standing in a river for hours....fishing with just a fly.
...some spend thousands on gear,
...many will create their own gear,
...some borrow the gear for free,
...some might be using old gear passed down from their fathers and getting a thrill,
YES they could get a can of salmon at the store or tie on 4 triple prong hooks & jig'em....how about a net or a stick of dynamite?
Instead, the true diehards adhere to a simple fly (often barbless) and thoroughly enjoy the sport.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by craig lewis

so peter, it seems much of the guidelines aren't fair for the "little" guy?
I'm trying to put this into perspective.
Now you say if i supply you with this original hose (that everyone else both living and deceased) wouldn't sell you, that you'll continue to push for equality between nos & mass produced offshore hoses, etc?
It seems if you could somehow change the guidelines for this to take place, it would make all our original hoses worthless hardened junk, including the one i sell you.
Boy this sure doesn't seem fair to the "big" guys or the "little" guys.

...by the way...i consider myself a "little" guy...still tons to learn... Except i don't feel like being included in your classification.

I've been reading your posts for years now about all the unfairness bestowed upon just your car at judging. Specifically it always seemed odd that your vast network of judging connections, hershey events, french lick, ebay & numerous swap meets across the nation couldn't turn up an original hose.
Jeez pete...folks are taking these things to their grave before they'll sell to you...don'tcha get it ?
I may stand to be corrected here, but honestly i fear your plight will only be cured with a change of attitude, longer arms or shallower pockets.
Some of us have spent the best years of our lives collecting charished parts for our dream machine. Wheather it be a lucky find in a wet box under a table, or paying big bucks for "unobtainium".....none of us want to see our efforts and sacrifices shattered.
If nobody will sell to you because you can't abide by the constantly improving, pure & simple guidelines as laid out & agreed upon after thousands of hours of research and donated time, maybe it's time for a hotrod or ratrod in your life?
Absolutely no offence against these cars...in fact they seem to have a great following and with "somewhat less" guidelines than the subject we're on about.

<optional reading>
...there's a reason folks enjoy standing in a river for hours....fishing with just a fly.
...some spend thousands on gear,
...many will create their own gear,
...some borrow the gear for free,
...some might be using old gear passed down from their fathers and getting a thrill,
yes they could get a can of salmon at the store or tie on 4 triple prong hooks & jig'em....how about a net or a stick of dynamite?
Instead, the true diehards adhere to a simple fly (often barbless) and thoroughly enjoy the sport.

"wow" the hammer !!..

[peters180a/170b]

Craig Lewis , i have a doctor friend in Upstate Conn. restoring a 1931 Deluxe Roadster. and John with a 180A both cars heading for MARC meet in Wisc.2012 .Both men asked me if i ever come across a upper hose PLEASE get it for them... If you want i'll email you there phone number and you can deal with them direct. AS i said before i have 2 HENRY FORD AWARDS and really no need for a top hose.. There is nothing else but just show the car. Which i am doing. AS far as no one selling me a hose just think about it for a short while..How do you cut down your competition.Some people knew of my car going to the French Lick, right... people who has n.o.s. hoses right... did not sell them to me right... are you following me.... Either their car or a friend of theirs were in competition. So as far as the 2 guys needed the hoses i'll send you their phone numbers.. or better yet,,,Doc. GARY 1-860-490-2777 OR John 1-203-885-5387...the little guy who made it big.[TWICE]

[Georgew48]

My wife thinks I'm sick just because I like Model A's/

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Georgew48

My wife thinks I'm sick just because I like Model A's/

Your wife has the symtoms mixed up. Your sick if you don't like Model A's.