Not getting fire!! Won't start. PLEASE HELP FAST!!

[crotex]

I need to get this thing going tonight because I am supposed to have it driving somewhere in the morning. I have a 31 Model a Pickup sitting on a 31 A coupe chassis. It has been running well until today I have not gotten it to start at all. I am not getting any spark to the plugs. I have a brand new coil, brand new points, new wires, new condensor, and ner wire from coil to distributor. I get fire up to the points but no fire to the plug wires. I have checked all the parts with a test light and all test to be good. What the heck is my problem? could someone PLEASE help me with getting this thing started and quick!! I am in a big bind for it. Thanks alot for any help.

[Jim Parker Toronto]

Change back your coil, the new one could be faulty!

[crotex]

I have tried both coils. The new one and the old one. No difference.

[Jim Parker Toronto]

Did you put the rotor back on? Sorry, just a thought!

[crotex]

I have put everything back like it should be and got an older guys I know who is a model A guy and he came over messing with it for several hours and still no fire.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

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Its related to something you handled:
check the condenser screw or contact bar is not grounding against the distributor . There should be a fiber washer between the screw and bar that prevents contact with the sides of the distributor. Its often missing. Also check that the terminal flag of the wire between the top and bottom plate is not grounding against the dist or the center spring. If you replaced the points post you loosened this wire and its very critical where the flag is placed so it clears all grounds. If you unscrewed the ignition wire and screwed it back in, it is possible to screw it too far, bending the contact bar and grounding it against the distributor.

If you have another distributor, swap it.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Are you getting a nice blue spark at least 1/4" long when you hold the coil wire near a head stud? If not, then stop the engine where the points are open, then turn the key on and see if you have 6 volts at the movable contact of the points. If so, then short the points with a screwdriver and see if you have a good spark at the end of the coil wire. If so, then the points need cleaning. That's assuming they are set at .020" and opening and closing OK.

As Jim said, if you have spark at the end of the coil wire, but not the plugs, then change the rotor. I've also seen the distributor body short between the strips inside the bakelite.

[Bob from Northport]

Remove the distributor cap, and turn the engine-watching the points to verify spark across the points. Check under the distributor plate that mounts the points to see if there is a short in the wire that brings the power from the ignition switch up to the points. The ignition switch may be bad, cutting off power to the system. If you are getting fire to your points, check the gap between the contact points inside the cap to the rotor. Check the resistance on the coil wire. Just some places to look.

[crotex]

Thanks guys I am outside trying it out right now. I will keep yall posted.

[crotex]

Still no luck at all with this thing. I have looked at a couple of different wiring diagrams. I have the ignition switch wire one side to the distributor, and one side wired to the positive side of the coil. Then I have a wire fron the negative on the battery to the post on the starter. From there it has a smaller wire ran to one of the post on the block mounted on the firewall. That same post on the firewall is also wire from there to the negative side on the coil. From the coil to the distributor I have a brand new plug wire. I also have a wire from the generator solenoid wire to the block on the firewall. I don't know what the hell is going on and why none of this will get spark. Does anyone know what is going on??

[shooter54]

is the key on?

(sorry, but i will admit that i've cranked mine over without the key in the on position before and wondered why it wouldn't fire. duh....)

[sturgis 39]

If you painted the head or distributor you could have lost a ground. Make sure the distributor and the head make contact with no paint between the two.

An oil film or paint can act as an insulator when you do not want one.

Be sure to post what worked.

[Mitch//pa]

if you have a fuse make sure its not blown

[Tom Wesenberg]

We need some answers to the questions in post #7 so we can know what's going on!

We can't help without ACCURATE feedback.

[B-nut]

Last week I had no spark so checked all of the above.Which one was the cause remained a mystery. Upon completion, spark was back but I remembered the condenser screw still needed to be snugged. Doing so lost the spark. When this screw was loosened a quarter turn the spark was back.Drove me crazy!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by B-nut

Last week I had no spark so checked all of the above.Which one was the cause remained a mystery. Upon completion, spark was back but I remembered the condenser screw still needed to be snugged. Doing so lost the spark. When this screw was loosened a quarter turn the spark was back.Drove me crazy!

Sounds like the connection terminal on the condenser is loose and turning. The only fix for that is a new condenser.

I had a repro ignition switch that drove me nuts trying to find the problem. One day I noticed that when I barely touched the key, the engine died, so I knew the contacts in the switch were barely making connection. I took it apart and worked it over so it has a good solid contact in the ON position.

[Roadster62]

Hope you find a cure, I may use the tips to get Dad's Roadster going again. Elictrical problems are what kill most Model A's IMO.

[crotex]

I do have the key on. The head has not been painted. Actually no parts have been painted. The new parts I have changed onto it were changed after I could not get it running. So I started changing the parts hoping to find the problems. I have put a test light on everything and just cant get spark to the plugs.

[crotex]

also Its not a fuse. No fuses on the car

[kp]

run a jumper wire across the Ing. switch,you have to remove the switch from the dash to do this but like Tom states above, the switch may have lost contact inside.I had this problem and took the switch apart and made correction, or if the contacts on the amp meter are grounding out it will not fire either. You could have a bad wire ,test light them for continuity .

[IrishHills]

Turn the motor over until the points are closed, then place end of coil wire close to ground, with key on, open and close points with your thumb... have fire from coil?

Originally Posted by crotex

I get fire up to the points but no fire to the plug wires. .

Edit: Could it be the wire under the dist. plate? grounding out?

[TK in LA]

Is the rotor turning when you crank it? Could be the timing gear?
My 2¢

[mickeyb]

start with coil go backwards
remove small wire that goes to dissy,check for voltage from coil where you removed the wire to ground,if you have voltage there, use a wire to go from coil to ground put it on and off coil should spark.if it does spark then you have dizzy problems

[Tom Wesenberg]

Do you have 6 volts on the movable points contact with the points open and key on?

Do you have 0 volts on the movable points contact with the points closed and key on?

Are you using a stranded coil wire, and NOT a carbon coil wire?

Being there in person, this problem should be diagnosed in less than three minutes.

Over the internet shouldn't take long, as long as we know exact answers to specific questions.

[AKsportcoupe]

Check the pigtail wire between upper and lower distributor plate. Is it shorting out? Also like others mentioned, your condenser connection.

Hope you get 'er going.

[82ndscotty]

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with a test lite on the side of the coil to the pop out switch, crank the engine the lite should blink. if steady and you have power at the points open, close points and the lite should go off post results. scotty

[Itchy-Pit]

What changed since you had running last? Start there. Left fuel on, batter low, messed with timing, messed with points? -D

[mot]

if Im reading him right
he has "fire up to the points",but not to the spark plug
Not reading anything else into it

the rest of the circuit is
through the points
the condenser
the rotor
the distributor bakelite housing

the next two shouldn't be a part of the problem
the spark plug wires
the spark plug to ground

is the distributor rotor turning?

[dr.j]

Contact your local club; kindly request someone to drop over and take a look. Admit you can not fix it and seek hands on help. It is probably some small over looked item and an older wiser gentleman will find in a minute.

[RonC]

An engine only needs 3 things to run, gas, spark and air. Your engine was just running so realistically you should first determine if it’s a spark or gas problem. In EVERY CASE, the first thing you do is watch your ammeter needle while you’re cranking the starter to see if it moves (bounces). If the needle bounces you more than likely have a fuel delivery problem however there is an outside chance your coil just quit. If your needle does not bounce then you have a spark problem inside your distributor or ignition circuit. Does your needle bounce??

[FL&WVMIKE]

That little wire under the distributor plate is a real bear. You can't see what it's doing until you take it out, and by then, you have changed it's position. That was the hardest "A" puzzel that I have had to figure out.
MIKE

[Roadster62]

Is there a replacement distributor that corrects that problem?

Originally Posted by FL&WVMIKE

That little wire under the distributor plate is a real bear. You can't see what it's doing until you take it out, and by then, you have changed it's position. That was the hardest "A" puzzel that I have had to figure out.
MIKE

[dfish2931nc]

Is the little carbon pile in the middle of the distributor cap still there? Maybe it broke and fell out. Or is the arm on the rotor not making contact with carbon pile in the middle of the distributor cap? Good Luck!

[Mitch//pa]

lower plate with a brass contact in place of the wire.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I still haven't heard an answer to the first basic question:

Does the coil wire have a spark when held 1/4" from a head stud?

As I said earlier, the problem can be diagnosed in a few minutes, IF we get some accurate answers to specific questions.

[Jim Parker Toronto]

I am curious, have you resolved your problem yet? What, if anything have you found?

[crotex]

the coil does get fire 1/4 inch from the head stud at times but then other times it does not. I have tried alot of stuff and also have ha my buddy who is more familiar look at it as well and he does not know the problem. Is there anyone close by that can come take a look at this thing for me and fix it?? I will pay a person for their time.

[WEEKS 46]

Could the coil wire be screwwed into the distributor body too far? I did this once and my coupe had the same issues as your describing. Took about 20 minutes to figure out.-Weeks

[Tom Wesenberg]

[QUOTE=crotex;178698]the coil does get fire 1/4 inch from the head stud at times but then other times it does not. I have tried alot of stuff and also have ha my buddy who is more familiar look at it as well and he does not know the problem. Is there anyone close by that can come take a look at this thing for me and fix it?? I will pay a person for their time.[
/QUOTE]

OK, an intermittent spark means an intermittent problem, such as a loose wire, or a bad ingition switch, like the repro I had to fix. Dirty points can give an intermittent spark. A loose connection on the terminal end of the condenser can give this problem. (Seems like that was mentioned) If the terminal on the end of the condenser turns, throw it away and buy a new one.

To eliminate a repro ignition swtich, use a jumper wire. To eliminate the terminal box and amp guage, use a jumper wire from the starter switch to the power terminal on the coil primary.

If the wire between the upper and lower plates of the distributor is unknown then I'd remove the top plate and inspect it to make sure it is in good condition and made of very fine strands, and to make sure the terminals aren't touching ground. Marco had a picture showing how to locate the terminals.

Also the distributor needs a good ground. An original distributor popout cable offers a good ground, but most repro switches rely on the metal distributor touching the head for a ground. Most of the old heads and distributors have a fair amount of rust where they touch each other. I always sandblast the rust when I restore a distributor, then put some grease on the shaft part that slips into the head. If you suspect a bad ground, just clip a jumper wire from the condenser ground strap to a head bolt, or other good ground.

[jw hash]

do you remove the distributor if so make sure youdid not screw the pop out cable in to far it will ground out.

[30ccpickup]

Originally Posted by crotex

the coil does get fire 1/4 inch from the head stud at times but then other times it does not. I have tried alot of stuff and also have ha my buddy who is more familiar look at it as well and he does not know the problem. Is there anyone close by that can come take a look at this thing for me and fix it?? I will pay a person for their time.

Tom narrowed it down to the primary side of your coil (black section). Use his next post to problem solve it.

[1931 flamingo]

CROTEX: You asked if someone close by could help? FILL OUT YOU PROFILE AND/OR PROVIDE YOUR LOCATION AND CONTACT INFO please.
Paul in CT

[Roadster62]

Has someone made a bulitproof replacement system you can just pull out of a box, install and get an A running?

[Steve Wastler]

Try the connections on existing or a new ammeter, the roadster sat for about 6 months once, lost spark, cleaned terminals on ammeter well, and it fired right up. It seems as though your process was to throw parts at a problem, with my experiences that isn't the best course of action. Post all your findings no matter how small....

[WEEKS 46]

Thats what I meant, I run just a wire in, no popout switch.-Weeks

Originally Posted by jw hash

do you remove the distributor if so make sure youdid not screw the pop out cable in to far it will ground out.

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Originally Posted by Roadster62

Has someone made a bulitproof replacement system you can just pull out of a box, install and get an A running?

Yes, a well restored original distributor works great.

And if you carry a spare with a screw in distributor wire with an aligator clip on the end, that could be used to bypass the ignition switch. Another 3 foot clip lead could be used to bypass the hot side of the coil primary. These 2 items could save a lot of time on tours where someone hasn't properly restored (or maintained) their distributor. Also carry a lower shaft, in case someone is using a one piece long shaft.

[mot]

in the schematic shown,the coil wire does not directly go from the coil to the spark plug
,it goes through the distributor cap ,and rotor,and body ,several sources of trouble

[crotex]

I am located in cuero, texas about an hour from Austin Texas and an hour from San antonio, then also about and hour from Corpus Christi. I appreciate the helpful information from everyone but if someone could please give me an extra hand if you are somewhere close to the area I would appreciate it very much and would pay someone for their time.

[Tom Foster]

Then you are close to Victoria, and a very active club, the Victoria-A's. A good many of them are likely getting back from the Poor Boy Tour right about now. I'm sending a PM with a couple of phone numbers.
Fearless

[1931 flamingo]

crotex: Please keep us posted on what's going on, especially when it runs.
Thanks
Paul in CT

[Roadster62]

Maybe it's what broke on Dad's Model A in 1983?

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

crotex: Please keep us posted on what's going on, especially when it runs.
Thanks
Paul in CT

[crotex]

First off I want to say thanks to Tom Foster for the PM he sent me with helpful info.

Second off. I had the president of the local Model A club stop by for a minute and he showed me what to do. He didnt have much time so he told me and showed me. I did exactly as he said to do and nothing happend other than the coil got really hot.

He had me run the distributor wire to the negative side of the coil. The the positive side to the post on the starter. I still did not get anything and it is still not running.

[sturgis 39]

Originally Posted by crotex

First off I want to say thanks to Tom Foster for the PM he sent me with helpful info.

Second off. I had the president of the local Model A club stop by for a minute and he showed me what to do. He didnt have much time so he told me and showed me. I did exactly as he said to do and nothing happend other than the coil got really hot.

He had me run the distributor wire to the negative side of the coil. The the positive side to the post on the starter. I still did not get anything and it is still not running.

To bad the president could not spend more time with you. I would guess an experienced model "a" man or woman could solve your problems in a half hour. Most new cars have the ignition switch between the coil and battery. The model "a" ignition switch is between the coil and distributor. I do not know if you knew this. The coil getting hot means something is wrong with the circuit. I wish I was closer and could help.

[Tom Wesenberg]

The coil is getting hot because the points aren't interupting the coil primary circuit, like they are supposed to do. Something is keeping the coil energized FULL time.

I know this has been asked several times already, but are you sure the wire between the upper and lower plates is NOT touching ground? Or the cable screwed in too far and shorting the buss bar to ground?

Also, is the rotor turning?

Are the points adjusted to about .020"?

Is the points rubbing block worn away so the metal arm is rubbing on the cam?

Do you have a repro ignition switch that might have one of the terminals touching the gas tank and shorting the coil to ground?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

The coil getting hot is because the points aren't interupting the circuit like they are supposed to do. Something is keeping the coil energized FULL time.

I know this has been asked several times already, but are you sure the wire between the upper and lower plates is NOT touching ground? Or the cable screwed in too far and shorting the buss bar to ground?

Take a step back and start over from the beginning. What Tom states is just like the guy with the voltage drop. He said he eliminated the Alt. But when he looked again that was the problem.

Like Tom said if the coil is getting hot the circuit is not opening.
http://users.erols.com/john-gloriabr...amColor2sm.jpg

The areas to look at are;
1) The wire from the key switch is turned in too far and is shorting to the dist. body.
2) The wire from the bottom plate to the top plate is shorted to the dist body.
3) The points are not opening.
4) that Condenser is shorted to the distributor body.

Each and every time you open the points you should get a spark at the wire from the coil. Unless this happens in makes no difference what the dist. body cap wires or spark plugs are doing.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by crotex

First off I want to say thanks to Tom Foster for the PM he sent me with helpful info.

Second off. I had the president of the local Model A club stop by for a minute and he showed me what to do. He didnt have much time so he told me and showed me. I did exactly as he said to do and nothing happend other than the coil got really hot.

He had me run the distributor wire to the negative side of the coil. The the positive side to the post on the starter. I still did not get anything and it is still not running.

If the points are closed, the coil will get hot. If the ammeter is toast, you will have an open. I have seen points so close that they look like there closed, but they are not touching. Some times finger prints on new point contacts are enough to not make contact, or when you file, and not remove the dust, they won't make contact. With the coil wire in the coil, and the other end in the top, with the top on the head about a 1/4 inch away, with points closed, take a screw driver and make and break the points to check the contacts, it should snap, unless juice is not going through the contacts. There just is not much there to check out. I am going back to read what has been posted so far. Herm.

[Ron Engen]

I hear that every thing checks out ok, but did you try a differerent distriburater cap.?????? Ron

[crotex]

I have replaced the points, condensor, plate, wires from every point, coil, and the wire from the coil to the distributor. I have chacked all of the parts suchs as the dist. cap, wires, coil, and switch with a test light and all check out. The points are set at 0.20 and I just can not get any fire to the plugs. I have pulled the plugs cleaned them up, cleaned the connections on the rotor, all of the sparking points inside the cap, and worked on the timing. The last thing I tried was taking the wire that goes to the dist. and hooking it straight to the negative side on the coil and then running a wire from the positive side of the coil to the post on the starter. Still no spark. I have clecked the wire inside the distributor and looks to be good and tests out ok. Anything else that anyone has posted or suggested on here I am not sure of. I either don't understand or don't know how. I am new to this stuff and don't know very much. Some things I am not familiar with.

[Mike V. Florida]

OK, I'm going to assume stock setup, 6V pos ground and a good ground connection from the battery to the engine block and to the cast body of the distrib..

1) Remove the dist cap, rotor, and cover.
2) Place a piece of paper between the points and the point block.
3) Take a volt meter and measure across the battery, write this down.
4) Take the volt meter and place the red wire on the engine block and the black on the arm near the point where you have the paper. You should read what you wrote down. I'm going to use 6v for ease of writing. either way go to step 5.
5) Move the black probe to the stud where the wire from the bottom plate attaches to the points. Have 6v. yes, have someone crank the engine do you still have 6volts as the engine spins and points remain open?
5A) No, the voltage went way down but was steady, check the battery with the starter spinning. A bad battery can look good with no load but go way down when the engine is cranking (It happened to me), replace battery and try to start.
5B) No the voltage was intermittent. Go on to step 6.
5C) Yes, it was steady 6v. Go skip step 6.
6) Remove the Condensor voltage steady the problem is the condensor or the attachment of the condensor such as the insulating washer.
6A) Turn off key, Remove the top plate and the wire from the bottom plate to the top plate. Turn key on, check for 6v at the bottom plate when the key is on and the engine spinning. It is still there and steady? Yes, the problem is in the wire from the bottm plate to the top plate. No, go on.
6B) Replace the jumper the pres had you put on. Is the voltage steady? Yes, the problem is in your ignition switch. Still intermittent the problem in where the armored cable goes into the dist and touches the bottom plate.
7) From step 5 above all the wiring to the points is good take a clip lead and place it on the point arm. Take the center wire from the coil and place it near a head stud. with key on each and every time you touch the end of the clip lead to a head stud you should get a spark. If everything chevks good move on. If not remove the condensor and repeat. Yes, bad condensor, still no, bad coil, .

If everything checks good and you remove the paper and put everything back and the engine still will not run and the intermittent spark on the coil wire returns;

8) Make sure the movable points and the fixed points are connecting squarely and are clean. Check to see that the clamp on the top that hold the points is not cracked. Replace, clean, file as needed.
9) With the meter check that the cap (the plastic body) has continuity from each internal stud to each external stud and only one stud.
10) Check for even gap on all four points between the rotor and the studs in the cap. Bend rotor and file studs as needed.
11) The cap should "float" on the rotor indicating that the metal tab on the top of the rotor is touching the center of the cap.

That's all I can think of please feel free to correct me as it is early in the morning and I'm rushing to type this during my break.

Check the gap at each lug

[sturgis 39]

Make sure the points are open and test the resistance from the movable part of the points to the engine block. This should be an open circuit with the points open. The starter could be the problem as Mike V pointed out. The starter could be bad and taking all of the power away from the ignition. You could crank the engine by hand if this is the problem. I have never cranked a model "A" by hand. Never push on the crank is what I have been told. If you crank the engine wrong you can break your arm.

WHERE IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE CLUB WHEN YOU NEED HIM? Maybe somebody else will stop by and help.

[MCHinson]

You have already received lots of good advice. I suspect that somewhere in all your parts changing you left out something simple yet vital. I would not be surprised if it is the insulating washer on the condensor. Here is a photo of that washer.

http://www.brattons.com/uploads/imag...arge/17630.jpg

Unfortunately, it sounds like you may not be familiar enough with the assembly to be able to understand where it goes.

Do you have a Model A Mechanic's Manual or any Model A parts catalogs that have diagrams that might enable you to double check the assembly sequence of the parts that you have changed?

It is important to step back and take a fresh calm look at everything and use a systematic approach to check each point in the electrical system. If you can't find the problem from what has already been posted, you might be better off calling the local club guy back and seeing if he or someone else has the time to come help you find the problem.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by sturgis 39

Make sure the points are open and test the resistance from the movable part of the points to the engine block. This should be an open circuit with the points open. The starter could be the problem as Mike V pointed out. The starter could be bad and taking all of the power away from the ignition. You could crank the engine by hand if this is the problem. I have never cranked a model "A" by hand. Never push on the crank is what I have been told. If you crank the engine wrong you can break your arm.

WHERE IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE CLUB WHEN YOU NEED HIM? Maybe somebody else will stop by and help.

If you make the resistence test sturgis 39 mentions in his first sentence, be sure the key is off, or you'll be sending battery voltage into your meter while on the OHMS scale, which could damage the meter.

I don't recall any answer to the question: DOES THE ROTOR TURN while cranking the engine?

[Ed Saniewski]

I had a problem yesterday with a friends car that ran great, I took the dist. off the engine to re torque the head , and when I reassembled the distributor on to the engine I got no spark. First I checked to see if the ignition cable was twisted in to tight,( it will short out and stop the engine) but it was OK. Then I took a test light to the points and found I would lose power when I moved the distributor top plate. It turns out the wire from the lower plate to the upper plate had a loose connection and it was just enough that it would work some times and not other times. Check under the upper plate if the wire is broken or loose.

[d.j. moordigian]

Tom, 64 posts and I'm waiting for the same answer...".DOES THE ROTOR TURN
while cranking the engine ". And that was asked at the BEGINNING.

[H. L. Chauvin]

This is what it definitley "cannot" be -- but, very good to know information for emergency, make-shift distributor cap & body repairs while on the highway.

Many years ago I saw a young Model A owner tow his mystery Model A into an elderly shade tree mechanic's yard with: good fire at points, 1/4" fire at coil when points open & closed, & rotor turning; however, when distributor cap & body were assembled on distributor, no fire to plugs.

Shade tree mechanic immediately recognized the problem -- one of the two (2) metal distributor cap bail (clamp) bands broke & was missing -- young owner had clamped the top distributor cap with a wire extending from the broken distributor clamp's rivet holes in the distributor's metal body, over the top of the distributor's bakelite cap, then over to & atttached to the unbroken distributor metal clamp.

After the coil wire was connected in the top center of the distributor cap, (next to the makeshift repair wire), the coil wire fired, jumped sideways, & was grounded by the repair wire used as a makeshift distributor cap clamp; hence, no fire at plugs.

Shadetree mechanic's emergency fix -- instaled a long, small nail where clamp rivet was removed, secured distributor cap with (2) rubber bands -- young owner drove home where he had a few distributors with a few metal unbroken distributor clamps.

H. L. Chauvin

[Brian T]

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Just a thought, maybe he as it running and is to embarassed to tell us, after all he is looking for speed parts.
Brian T.

[crotex]

the car is still not running. Yes, I am looking for speed parts. No, I do not care what any of you personally think of me. So no I am not embarrassed. If I had too much pride I don't think I could post on here saying I didn't know how to fix it. I thought I had answered the question previously but Yes, The rotor is turning when the engine is turning over. I took the truck to a guy from the local model A club today and he looked at it but was not able to get it running. I just got home with the truck and still no luck. I don't know what the problem would be with wanting speed parts. I personally dont want to be the guy that has everyone pissed off honking at me because I cant go fast enough on the highway.

[MCHinson]

crotex,

While you are understandably frustrated on your end, I think the thing that is difficult to deal with on the other end is that it is difficult for anyone to help you diagnose the problem without feedback from you.

If someone says something like "Try A, B & C", you really need to try it and then reply, "When I tried A, B & C, the results were _________" (fill in the blank with whatever result you got).

For instance, I still don't know if you have the insulating washer on the condensor screw. If you don't, that might fix it. If you do, if you tell me, then I know we have eliminated that particular possibility.

If you go back and read all 4 pages of suggestions, there are loads of potential causes of your problem, but we have no idea if you have tried and eliminated those or not. We can continue throwing out suggestions, but until you communicate what has been tried and what results were obtained, there is a very small chance that any of us are going to be able to identify the problem(s) without seeing your Model A in person.

There is also a chance that you more than one problem or have something wired incorrectly since you have changed so many parts without following a diagnostic flow chart.

If you have a Model A Mechanic's handbook, I am surprised that following the diagrams and troubleshooting charts has not identified your problem. Do you have this book?

[Tom Wesenberg]

MCHinson brings up a good point about the thick insulating washer. Leaving it out won't neccessarily mean a short to ground, but the screw may bottom out before the condenser is tight to the buss bar. Then when someone tries to tighten it more the brass terminal in the condenser can turn and ruin the condenser.

I still can't believe someone being there in person can't fairly quickly find the problem.

OK, the rotor turns so we know the distributor cam screw is tight and the gears are good as well as the tangs on the distributor shafts. So everything mechanical with the dist. should be OK. Now we know for sure it must be an electrical fault. We also know the coil gets hot, and that's because the points aren't opening and closing the coil primary circuit.

1. If you put a volt meter or test light on the dist. primary terminal leading to the points, does it blink on and off as the points open and close? If not, then you may have a repro ignition switch with one terminal touching the gas tank, or a bad wire inside the armored cable, or the short wire between the upper and lower plates inside the dist. could be touching ground, or the points arm could be rubbing on the dist. cam. Do the easiest checks first; see if the points arm is rubbing on the cam. Only the rubbing block should touch the cam.

Someone checking this in person has immediate feedback and should be able to find the problem in a few minutes, but feedback to us should also solve it quickly.

Let us know what you find.

[Roadster62]

The cars really don't have to run, if you enjoy looking at them, same goes with collecting Speed Equipment. I've had close to two dozen OHV heads for T's & A's over the past 40 years and only one in a running car.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

Mr. crotex must be enjoying this. I imagine it is running fine by now, since his interest has moved on to planning all his hop-up equipment on the other thread.

At first I thought the same thing but now I take his looking at speed equipment as a method to take a step back and regrouping before going ahead again. You know clearing his head.

[John Butts in CT]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

This thread is the most entertaining in a long time!
You guys are like a dog on a plush toy - won't give it up.

Mr. crotex must be enjoying this. I imagine it is running fine by now, since his interest has moved on to planning all his hop-up equipment on the other thread.

Carry on.

Agreed. "Entertaining" like a $20.00 bill on the sidewalk... attached to a fishing line, or a heated coin left for someone to pick up.

Everyone... please.... If you ask for advice, LISTEN to each answer and RESPOND to each question... if you want this great fraternity/sorority of Fordbarners to share their knowledge.

Newbies.... If you've bought 20-30 new parts/bits for your newly acquired (but previously running) "A", PLEASE put them on one at a time and keep track of what you do? (Cardinal rule)

Everyone (again)... Fordbarn's the closest we can get to my 1960's experience of being able to sit with and learn from my dad's pals at the garage on a Saturday morning (at a time when there were two "A's" on my block... one being used as a driver and one under restoration.)

Let's keep it civil. Let's share. Let's keep 'em running

JMHO

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

If you can't master a simple Model A distributor, maybe you should upgrade to a good quality magneto!
"THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

[Jordan]

i dont understand why yall are bashing him. he came here for help, not to be mocked. IMO

[crotex]

Ok, Here is where I stand now. I have gotten the Model A running by wiring the coil directly to the points and the coil directly to the post on the starter. I had it put in correct timing and charged the battery for about an hour and it fires up and runs. BUT, Now I have a new problem. I can get it running by choking it but then it is hard to keep it running when I open the choke. I finally got it to run and idle for about 2 hours but then when I try to drive it it just constantly dies out and is harder and harder to get started. I ended up just pushing it back into the yard for the night.

My responce to all of the bashing some of you guys are giving me for no reason is that I just don't understand why. I AM looking for hop up parts. There is nothing wrong with that. I posted the thread asking about them while my Model A was not running. I knew that the problem was something small and was reassured by many of you that it was probably something small. I was never once under the impression that my Model A would never run again. So tell me, where is the problem with wanting to do upgrades when you get it going again?? Also Why can't I just be curious about it? I know many many people who have speed parts on their cars. Is there something wrong with all of those guys too?? I did not lie to anyone or trick anyone in anyway for entertainment in this thread. I can watch TV for more fun than that. I am on here only asking for advice and I get a few of you bashing me for no reason. NONE of you have ever met me. NONE of you personally know me, And I did not badmouth any of you. So what's is the problem?? To those of you who have helped me and used your time to give me constructive input I really really do appreciate it. It has helped alot and I am very thankful. I promise to offer my help to any of you with what I can help with in the future.

[John Butts in CT]

Right, then... this is it for me. TIME OUT!

With all respect, Crotex, when you say "I have gotten the Model A running by wiring the coil directly to the points and the coil directly to the post on the starter" I can understand why many Fordbarners are saying "Whaaaa?" If you don't see the internal inconsistancies in your sentence, PLEASE read it again.

I wish you (and your car) the best, but when you say "I can get it running by choking it but then it is hard to keep it running when I open the choke. I finally got it to run and idle for about 2 hours but then when I try to drive it it just constantly dies out and is harder and harder to get started. I ended up just pushing it back into the yard for the night" I'll confess that my head spins.

If you will reply (precisely) to the well-intentioned inquiries of the Fordbarners who have posted previously, you MAY find yourself on the road. Otherwise, you may have an "A" that will do nothing more than, as you say, "idle for about 2 hours."

From one who believes that a Stock "A" should run well and be dependable,

JWB

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by crotex

Ok, Here is where I stand now. I have gotten the Model A running by wiring the coil directly to the points and the coil directly to the post on the starter. I had it put in correct timing and charged the battery for about an hour and it fires up and runs. BUT, Now I have a new problem. I can get it running by choking it but then it is hard to keep it running when I open the choke. I finally got it to run and idle for about 2 hours but then when I try to drive it it just constantly dies out and is harder and harder to get started. I ended up just pushing it back into the yard for the night.

Wait, wait, wait, lets finish with the electrical problem first then move on to playing with the choke at lease isolate the electrical problem to one thing then we can move to other problems.

"I have gotten the Model A running by wiring the coil directly to the points..." Bypassing the ign switch and depending on where you placed the jumper, the lower plate and the wire from the lower plate to the upper plate was also bypassed, "...and the coil directly to the post on the starter." bypassing the amp meter.

Are you sure these things are bad? With the key on and the jumper from the coil to the points removed will it start?

[John Butts in CT]

Last $0.02, I promise.

The last time I experienced the symptoms alluded to in post #76, the "A" had a brittle/cracked exhaust manifold, a cracked valve cover, and a s****y exhaust manifold to muffler clamp.


Can anyone (please) help this guy?

[Roadster62]

The post has inspired me to send off a distributor core for rebuilding. If it comes home functional I may get Dad's Roadster running after quiting 28 years ago.

[John Butts in CT]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

The post has inspired me to send off a distributor core for rebuilding. If it comes home functional I may get Dad's Roadster running after quiting 28 years ago.

So, the distributor core's your ONLY problem?

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by crotex

Ok, Here is where I stand now. I have gotten the Model A running by wiring the coil directly to the points and the coil directly to the post on the starter. I had it put in correct timing and charged the battery for about an hour and it fires up and runs. BUT, Now I have a new problem. I can get it running by choking it but then it is hard to keep it running when I open the choke. I finally got it to run and idle for about 2 hours but then when I try to drive it it just constantly dies out and is harder and harder to get started. I ended up just pushing it back into the yard for the night.

Sounds to me like you have possibly 2 problems. One you quite possibly have a bad ammeter. To check this re-wire the system to stock and wrap a wire around the brass nuts on the terminal box. This will bypass the ammeter and the engine should start if this is the problem.

Once you figure this out you need to move on to the running. Sounds like fuel starvation. I would disconnect the fuel line and make sure you have a good stream of fuel to the carb for as long as it takes to fill a quart jar without any fluctuation. If the fuel is intermittent or stops, use a compressor to blow back into the tank from the carb end. If the flow is good, remove the carb and clean it out. It may have rust sediment in the bowl.

These are my only suggestions without seeing the car.

[Roadster62]

Well, IF I knew it was functional it is one less thing to worry about.

Originally Posted by John Butts in CT

So, the distributor core's your ONLY problem?

[Cider Mill]

If you have a good strong spark to the points, the only things between them and the plugs is the rotor, the distributor cap and the distributor body. I'd change those and double check the timing and gaps.

[31Tudor]

To address the running issue, try doing a compression test to see if you maybe have a stuck valve. I had a stuck valve one time and it would start, idle, but would stumble and not run well under any kind of driving situation. If the car had sat for a little while perhaps one stuck open.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Confusion in TERMS.

It's been mentioned a few times during this thread about getting "good spark at the points". Actually I hope they meant getting good spark to the rotor, because one job of the condeser is to keep arcing down to a minimum at the points.

[IrishHills]

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Anyone else with an idea?




(just being a smart azz)

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by IrishHills

Anyone else with an idea?

maybe it has a clogged cat

[gunmetal blue]

do you have vacuam to suck the gas in the engine.

[IrishHills]

I found one thing about mine when bought it not running, until I got the timing "right" they can sure run funny.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by IrishHills

I found one thing about mine when bought it not running, until I got the timing "right" they can sure run funny.

So true!!!!

[Ed Saniewski]

Hey Tom W. sorry to get off the main subject, but a friend was having a problem with his distributor and when we had the rotor off we watched the points open and close the spark would get real bright sometimes and dim other times. Would this mean the condenser is going bad? The points are the modern type with the condenser on the top plate. The motor was running rough and the #3 spark plug was not firing. We changed the distributor to another and the engine runs great. Dose a condenser go bad slowly or just quit?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Ed,
The condenser can fail slowly, or all at once. I don't ever recall having one fail in any car I've ever driven. Of course it was pretty standard to change plugs, points, and condenser every 10,000 miles. I quit doing that a long time ago, and now only replace bad parts.

[Rich in Tucson]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

maybe it has a clogged cat

Or gullet.
A feller here recently bought an amazing original T-motor sprint car with GEMSA head and all kinds of authentic old goodies on it. Supposedly he got it cheap from some young guys who were "mechanics" at a repair shop - they could get it to idle but nothing else.

Once the red mechanic's rag was pulled out of the intake manifold, it ran great. I suppose he will tell the sellers about it someday.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

I do that now too, Tom.

Probably a lot of good condensers laying around on workbenches all over the U.S.-------

Can they be checked at a place like Radio Shack or something to see if they are 'good'? Seems like I read the procedure once on how to sort out good ones can't recall off hand what it was.

I would just install them on your Model A and see how it runs. It only takes a minute or two to change the condeser following this proceedure:

1. Have the new condenser laying next to the distributor.
2. From the passenger side, remove the ground screw first.
3. From the driver's side, remove the terminal screw and keep light pressure on the screw while you slip out the old condenser and slip in the new one.
4. Tighten the terminal screw.
5. Tighten the ground screw.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I would just install them on your Model A and see how it runs. It only takes a minute or two to change the condeser following this proceedure:

1. Have the new condenser laying next to the distributor.
2. From the passenger side, remove the ground screw first.
3. From the driver's side, remove the terminal screw and keep light pressure on the screw while you slip out the old condenser and slip in the new one.
4. Tighten the terminal screw.
5. Tighten the ground screw.

boy i just fought with one the other day the screw wouldnt start straight in the condensor i ended up pulling the plates out and then was able to get it started.

[wardkew]

I had the center contact on the rotor cap disintegrate. I shut it down one night and it wouldn't start the next morning. No fire to the plugs. Took forever to figure it out. New cap did the trick. Good luck.

[sonny30coupe]

I think it is the thermalgockle probably clogged.

[Frank Nemo]

It only takes a minute or two to change the condeser following this proceedure:

1. Have the new condenser laying next to the distributor.
2. From the passenger side, remove the ground screw first.
3. From the driver's side, remove the terminal screw and keep light pressure on the screw while you slip out the old condenser and slip in the new one.
4. Tighten the terminal screw.
5. Tighten the ground screw.

Tom Wesenberg, thanks for great tip in #3. I can not tell you how many times I have dropped the terminal screw and had difficulty getting a new one started. I can not wait to try your procedure. Thanks for another bit of great advice.

[mickeyb]

is this car running yet

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Frank Nemo

It only takes a minute or two to change the condeser following this proceedure:

1. Have the new condenser laying next to the distributor.
2. From the passenger side, remove the ground screw first.
3. From the driver's side, remove the terminal screw and keep light pressure on the screw while you slip out the old condenser and slip in the new one.
4. Tighten the terminal screw.
5. Tighten the ground screw.

Tom Wesenberg, thanks for great tip in #3. I can not tell you how many times I have dropped the terminal screw and had difficulty getting a new one started. I can not wait to try your procedure. Thanks for another bit of great advice.

You're welcome, Frank. I figured that out real quick when I was testing a bunch by running them. Of course I have a couple screw starters, but never when I need one, so this works great.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by mickeyb

is this car running yet

Tune in tomorrow for another episode of "AS THE CRANK TURNS"

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by mickeyb

is this car running yet

yes and no, see message number 76.

[msmaron]

Okay so far as NEED HELP QUICK...that went out the door 4 days ago...where are you at this point since i know you did not drive to your event?

[Maclab58]

My gawd! what a saga!

[IrishHills]

Originally Posted by msmaron

Okay so far as NEED HELP QUICK...that went out the door 4 days ago...where are you at this point since i know you did not drive to your event?

He must have got it running and left town...

[Louis]

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"As the Bowl Swirls ".

[Roadster62]

Electrical threads are like a visit to the snake house at the zoo, can't stand either, but always look at them. Bet no two people will have the same answer to this question. If every wire was riped out of a Model A and the distributor was out and on the work bench, what are the steps in getting the car running?

[Mitch//pa]

how long is this movie? "as the crank turns"

[zzlegend]

I am up early. Dont want to miss another episode. Drama, suspense, humor, excitement, this show has it all.

[mickeyb]

Man has this been a trip.made me tired and im just reading

[John Butts in CT]

Originally Posted by mickeyb

Man has this been a trip.made me tired and im just reading

If you're really tired, there's another thread about sleeping an an "A."

[crotex]

I have the motor running. I disassembled the carb and cleaned every piece. I found that it had a bad float along with needle and seat. I went to my buddy's shop and some out of a carb he had. I got it running and driving good for a while but now it is giving me problems again. I think the float may be bad again.

[Mitch]

Sounds like it may be sediment in the gas fouling up the fuel supply and may have redeposited junk in the carb to put you back to the problem you had before. If a lot of rust, etc. is in the tank, a filter will plug and fuel flow will slow. If no filter, then you'll probably get the stuff in the carb.

Hope you best.

[John Butts in CT]

I'm with Mitch.

There are lots of threads about dealing with gas tank crud; have a look.

Glad to hear you're making progress, crotex. Believe it or not, Fordbarners are very supportive. They just like feedback and updates from time to time.

Best regards.

[TinCup]

So what was the fix for spark at the plugs? That's what started this parade.

[Mitch//pa]

got lost in part 1 spark-- ill try to stay alert on part 2 fuel

[crotex]

The rust sedimant is to a minimum now in the tank. I did not get to mess with the carb anymore today. I been busy redoing the floor in it instead. tomorrow I will take it off and check it out again.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by crotex

The rust sedimant is to a minimum now in the tank. I did not get to mess with the carb anymore today. I been busy redoing the floor in it instead. tomorrow I will take it off and check it out again.

So the electrical is all put back together? What was the final problem/solution?

[mickeyb]

now the floor but it's only wood

[msmaron]

So maybe this post should now be edited and remove the "NEED HELP FAST" part...

[crotex]

Whether you are bashing me, or trying to help me. I still would like to say thank you to all of the guys who did take their time to try helping me out. I really do appreciate it. I am sorry if my tastes or knowledge are any different then some of you guys'. I Just turned 22 years old so I am probably in a different generatioin than alot of you and naturally have different tastes than some of you. I am not on here to offend anyone. Thanks for the help.

[zzlegend]

Originally Posted by crotex

Whether you are bashing me, or trying to help me. I still would like to say thank you to all of the guys who did take their time to try helping me out. I really do appreciate it. I am sorry if my tastes or knowledge are any different then some of you guys'. I Just turned 22 years old so I am probably in a different generatioin than alot of you and naturally have different tastes than some of you. I am not on here to offend anyone. Thanks for the help.

Sometimes this can be a rough crowd and some may not know the best way to post response to your question, but most are here to help. Generation gap? Ya........... But since you are only 22, you got a long way to go. Dont let it bother you. Good luck with your project.

[Frank Nemo]

Couldn't agree more with ZZ Legend. Just keep working on getting that "A" to be a running and dependable car. Soak up the good advise you can get on this site and ignore the occasional sarcasm.

When you get things straigtened out with the car please be sure to let us know how the problems were resolved.

Thanks!

[TinCup]

Not only are people here to help but they are here to learn as well. That's why I think it's important to let everyone know your progress. What worked what didn't. Keep at it.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by crotex

Whether you are bashing me, or trying to help me. I still would like to say thank you to all of the guys who did take their time to try helping me out. I really do appreciate it. I am sorry if my tastes or knowledge are any different then some of you guys'. I Just turned 22 years old so I am probably in a different generation than a lot of you and naturally have different tastes than some of you. I am not on here to offend anyone. Thanks for the help.

The best part is you asked for help and we all responded... How great is Ford Barn or what?!!!

[sturgis 39]

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My tank had a lot of junk in it. I bought a little filter that goes on top of the shut off valve. It raises the gas level in the tank and keeps the rust flakes from going to the carb (a stand pipe). I run an inline filter plus the original sediment bowl. The inline filter is a see through plastic one. When it gets brown I change it. I carry an extra flter in the car.

The car would back fire and run poorly when I first started driving it. I did not realize that it was running too lean.

Some day some one will make new model "A" gas tanks. I think they will sell. If some body has a source let me know.

[kp]

Do you know what the problem was with it not getting any fire to the plugs? We all would like an answer and what ever you do put an in the line fuel filter on it, that rust and stuff out of the gasoline tank is gonna cause you more trouble ,just watch the new filter for discoloration.