Ford 150 OD Transmission install in 31 Roadster

[old31]

I am looking to install Ford RTS 150 4 speed trans with a 41% OD.

Car is a 31 Deluxe Roadster with Snyder 5.5 head, enlarged intakes, new motor, B grind cam, FSI Zipper distributor and 4:11 rear end.

I would appreciate it if the people that make the complete 150 kits PM me with your kit info, or reply to this post so others could have the same information.

I have read everything I can from the Barn, Hamb, Mitchell, Volvo, etc.

[glenn in camino]

Several members of my club, The Hangtown As in Placerville California have those transmissions in their Model As. They are very happy with them. I think you'll need a AA bell housing to make the switch.

[daveymc29]

Are the AA bell housings difficult to find? I have heard that they are needed for this application and I hear of so many out there that I wonder where one finds the AA bell housing or is someone reproducing them? I may want to do as Old31 did. I have a 411 gear set and all the bearings. Might be a fun project for winter days when it's raining out here in sunny CA.

[1955cj5]

Originally Posted by daveymc29

Are the AA bell housings difficult to find? I have heard that they are needed for this application and I hear of so many out there that I wonder where one finds the AA bell housing or is someone reproducing them? I may want to do as Old31 did. I have a 411 gear set and all the bearings. Might be a fun project for winter days when it's raining out here in sunny CA.

There is one on ebay....not mine ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Model-A-AA-F...%257Ciid%253A1

[AL in NY]

old31 - the 41% OD will work good for you with the 4.11 rear. Unfortunately, you will still have nearly the same final drive ratios you have now in 1st, 2nd and 3rd........A better setup is the 26% OD transmission with a 3.78 rear.

[CarlG]

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I have the 27% or with 3.78 rear. Works great.

[old31]

Originally Posted by AL in NY

old31 - the 41% OD will work good for you with the 4.11 rear. Unfortunately, you will still have nearly the same final drive ratios you have now in 1st, 2nd and 3rd........A better setup is the 26% OD transmission with a 3.78 rear.

Still confused about this. Are you saying that there is too much of a change from 3rd to OD?

I was hoping to leave the rear end alone.

Also, does it matter what year AA bell housing that you use?

[old31]

Originally Posted by 1955cj5

There is one on ebay....not mine ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Model-A-AA-F...%257Ciid%253A1

I don't think that BH will work for a Ford 150. It says for a 5 speed.

[AL in NY]

No, I don't think there's too big a jump from 3rd to OD. Your overall radio in third is 4.11 and in OD with the 41% transmission, the ratio would be 2.91. With the 27% trans the ratios are 3.78/2.96. All I was saying is I think you would like the drivability of the roadster better with the 3.78. I have the 3.78 with the 27% OD trans and a stout motor in my 30 pickup and I'm thinking of going to a 3.54 rear because you can almost drive the truck by starting off in 2nd gear.(my overall ratio in 1st is 12.28)

[MAG]

"I don't think that BH will work for a Ford 150. It says for a 5 speed."


It will work fine. The BH doesn't care what is behind it, 4 speed or 5 speed. Fabrications (or Kit)must be done with either one.

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by old31

Still confused about this. Are you saying that there is too much of a change from 3rd to OD?

I was hoping to leave the rear end alone.

Also, does it matter what year AA bell housing that you use?

Needs to be a 4-speed bell housing used in 1930-31 AA.

Bob

[Ernie Vitucci]

Good Morning...You might also consider the Mitchell Overdrive. I have had one for 12 years with a 3.78 rear end and it has been wonderful and has not given me any problems...also it is designed specifically for the Model 'A' Ford. Ernie

[CarlG]

There are a couple of guys that fabricate a bolt-in kit using the Ford Tremec RTS transmission. That's the best way to go, as all the fabrication and machining is done for you.

[kenparker]

MAG and old 31. The bell housing refered to above (listed on ebay) is a 1930 or 31 AA bell housing. It was -in the AA - coupled to a four speed Model A transmission. It is the same one we use to convert the F150 to Model A engines.

Old31. you will need the 30-31 four speed bell housing from a Model AA truck. BTW I think I have one left from my kit building days.

[old31]

Originally Posted by Ernie Vitucci

Good Morning...You might also consider the Mitchell Overdrive. I have had one for 12 years with a 3.78 rear end and it has been wonderful and has not given me any problems...also it is designed specifically for the Model 'A' Ford. Ernie

I have spoken with Mitchell and with owners of Mitchell. My problem is I just don't like the idea of having 2 levers or a pull cable.

[old31]

Originally Posted by CarlG

There are a couple of guys that fabricate a bolt-in kit using the Ford Tremec RTS transmission. That's the best way to go, as all the fabrication and machining is done for you.

I have spoken with Tim Sheridan, Valley Machine, and Gary Bernard. I ruled out Gary and Valley because they remove the torque tube.

Do you know of anyone else?

[eagle]

What would be wrong with this option? https://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_m...n-shifter.html

[denniskliesen]

eagle, that is an original 3 speed transmission converted to synchonizers. There is no overdrive in that transmission. I think the OP wants an overdrive.

[CarlG]

Pm sent

[tjw]

Ford 3+1 transmission conversion to closed drive set up

[old31]

Originally Posted by eagle

What would be wrong with this option? https://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_m...n-shifter.html

I spoke with Sue Mitchell about this trans. It would be awesome if it had an OD built in. She said that it is for faster up shifting and downshifting.

And if I wanted an OD I would mount it behind this transmission.

[old31]

Originally Posted by tjw

Ford 3+1 transmission conversion to closed drive set up

Whos, what trans is that?

[AL in NY]

The pictures posted are the F150 RTS OD 4 speed transmission from Ford showing how the tail shaft has been removed and an adapter plate installed for the torque tube.

[AL in NY]

If you look closely at the second photo posted you'll see a couple of transmissions sitting on a bench that have (pretty sure) the MAC's Speed Shop bell housing installed. See link below to view this part. Many people use this bell housing instead of the "AA" bell housing when they install the F150 transmission.

http://macsspeed.com/index.php/produ...inium-castings

[AL in NY]

This might interest someone, a rebuilt RTS OD transmission;

http://hermtheoverdriveguy.com/rebui...rdrive-31-1150

[wensum]

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I'm running the 41% overdrive on my car, but it is a speedster with lighter body and the motor is somewhat more improved than yours.
It pulls this gear effortlessly even up reasonably steep hills. I'm not sure of my diff ratio as it's a quick-change, but pretty close to standard I think.
Having discovered too late that there are in fact three ratios available, the general advice was 41% for V8s and 35% for Model As. With the diff ratio I have, I am doing 1670rpm at 62mph

[eagle]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

eagle, that is an original 3 speed transmission converted to synchonizers. There is no overdrive in that transmission. I think the OP wants an overdrive.

Yes but its geared higher.

[denniskliesen]

It has a 15% higher gear in first and second. Third gear is still 1:1, not overdrive. Read post #21.

[JRN1967]

Hi all I'm new, first post but I've been lurking for several months.

I bought an RTS with the 38% for 125.00, for my 30 coupe. 1st and 2nd have higher gear set, if OD is too high for Western Mass hills I can switch to 4:11's

I picked up a 32 BB bell housing cheap. I think its the same size as a AA?

Only, the BB doesn't have the mount for the radius rods. Has anyone fabricated a mount for a BB bell, so it would work in a Model A car?

[Russ/40]

I wish there was a resource that would simplify all the above, and at the same time state if any torque tube modifications are needed. I get snowed in when so many solutions are being discussed at the same time. Help!

[wensum]

Check out Macs Speed Shop website. He has a bell housing available and I think an adaptor to enable retaining the torque tube.
I have the 41% F150 box in my car with an open prop shaft. It has an improved motor and honks along happily at 60mph and will pull up most hills in overdrive, only dropping back to top gear for tight corners and steeper gradients. Love it!http://www.macsspeed.com/

[JtownJoe]

Ditto on what Al from NY wrote. I love my 27% OD but 1st gear is almost not needed unless your on a fair grade to start out.

[CarlG]

I have the RTS 3+1 27% OD, with 3.78 rear, closed drive line. IMHO, that's the perfect combination.

[JRN1967]

Originally Posted by wensum

I have the 41% F150 box in my car with an open prop shaft. It has an improved motor and honks along happily at 60mph and will pull up most hills in overdrive, only dropping back to top gear for tight corners and steeper gradients. Love it!http://www.macsspeed.com/

Thanks wensum, I searched and read several times that the 27% is the most popular ratio. But until now, I haven't been able to find a post stating the 38% or 41% ran well up hills with a stock engine.

I'm going to make the modifications to the 38% and when I'm done, I'll let everyone know how it turns out.

John

[JRN1967]

Originally Posted by CarlG

I have the RTS 3+1 27% OD, with 3.78 rear, closed drive line. IMHO, that's the perfect combination.

Carl, I've read that you and many others preferred the 27%. But they are getting harder to find.

Thank you
John

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by JRN1967

Carl, I've read that you and many others preferred the 27%. But they are getting harder to find.



Thank you

John

The guy that I got mine from builds them that way using all new gears regardless of what they were originally.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by JRN1967

Hi all I'm new, first post but I've been lurking for several months.

I bought an RTS with the 38% for 125.00, for my 30 coupe. 1st and 2nd have higher gear set, if OD is too high for Western Mass hills I can switch to 4:11's

I picked up a 32 BB bell housing cheap. I think its the same size as a AA?

Only, the BB doesn't have the mount for the radius rods. Has anyone fabricated a mount for a BB bell, so it would work in a Model A car?

I not 100% sure but looking at pictures I don't think all the bolt holes where they bolt to the flywheel housing are the same between the AA and BB.

Bob

[modelAtony]

Originally Posted by old31

I am looking to install Ford RTS 150 4 speed trans with a 41% OD.

Car is a 31 Deluxe Roadster with Snyder 5.5 head, enlarged intakes, new motor, B grind cam, FSI Zipper distributor and 4:11 rear end.

I would appreciate it if the people that make the complete 150 kits PM me with your kit info, or reply to this post so others could have the same information.

I have read everything I can from the Barn, Hamb, Mitchell, Volvo, etc.

Check out my site. I run 3:27 and mitchell od on my 31 Tudor

[Russ/40]

Originally Posted by Russ/40

I wish there was a resource that would simplify all the above, and at the same time state if any torque tube modifications are needed. I get snowed in when so many solutions are being discussed at the same time. Help!

Retaining the torque yes, does it need to be shortened?

[kenparker]

Russ. anytime one changes the transmission in a Model A, and that new transmissoin is longer than the original Model A transmission, such as the F150 3-1 OD transmission, the Torque Tube will have to be shortened.

I have built lots of the F150 conversion Kits and every one of them had the Torque shortened. Without going to the shop to measure I think the Torque Tube and the Drive Shaft were shortened 2 3/16" .....and that is with using the AA Bell Housing. Radias Rods are also shortened.

The main reason for using the AA bell Housing is to avoid cutting into the Center Cross Member.

[Russ/40]

Ken, thank you much for the clarification. So, the T5 solutions also require torque tube shortening. Is this true with the Clings V8 transmission solution?

[JRN1967]

Ken, After you cut off the tail section of the RTS transmission. How do you
seal the RTS from leaking fluid out of the output shaft? Do you use a sealed
rear bearing? How do you stop fluid from entering the U joint coupling area?

[AL in NY]

JRN1967, if you look at the pictures posted in post #20. You'll see that the tailshaft has been removed and replaced with a flat plate. The rear bearing is replaced with one that is sealed on one side. Also, in regards to your earlier post about the 27% OD trans getting hard to find. Check out this junk yard search site(http://car-part.com/). Depending on how far you want to travel, that transmission is available.

Carlg, David Delume does not replace the internal gears in the F150 transmission with new ones because they are not all available, especially the cluster gear. The cluster gear is unique to each different OD ratio.

[kenparker]

Al has already answered the questions by Russ, but I can answer also and maybe add some more.

The "flat Plate" Al mentioned is the replacment for the tailhousing. A sealed bearing is put in place of the original open bearing, thus, preventing transmission oil from flowing, leaking or sneaking into the Ujoint cavity. Or Ujoint grease from sneaking into the tranny.

Different Kit builders build their "flat Plate" differently, but all versions work the same purpose.

Every T-5 transmission conversion I have seen has been an open Drive conversion. That is why I do not want to mess with them. Never done a comversion that fits behind the early V-8 transmission, but no reason it could not be built with a shortened drive shaft and Torque Tube.

Remember, if one shortens the Torque Tube the Radias Rods have to be shortened accordingly. ken

[JRN1967]

Al & Ken, thanks for the answers to my seal question.

Al, I checked out that parts site. Found two within driving distance, I'm saving it to my favorites.

John

[SteveB31]

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If you need any AA clutch housings, we have several.

Bert’s Model A Center
Modelastore.com
[email protected]

[bettlesr]

I got my kit from Tim Sheridan. His kit uses the standard bellhousing and does not cut the cross member. For the space, the top and bottom ears of the universal joint housing are removed, and the brake cross shaft is shimmed lower by 1/4". The drive shaft is cut 4.5".

[Chris Haynes]

The 7.50x16 rear tires on mine are all the overdrive I could ask for. :-)

[JRN1967]

Originally Posted by bettlesr

I got my kit from Tim Sheridan. His kit uses the standard bellhousing and does not cut the cross member. For the space, the top and bottom ears of the universal joint housing are removed, and the brake cross shaft is shimmed lower by 1/4". The drive shaft is cut 4.5".

bettlesr, This arrangement must put the shifter another 2" further back toward the seat, correct?

Happy Holidays,
John

[duke36]

For the f150 4 SPEED, what fluid is used and how to drain it? Appears to be no lower drain hole. Does one remove the bottom bolt or use a suction gun?

[kenparker]

To duke36. A technical correction for better explanation. The F150 4 speed is just that - a 4 speed. It has an iron case and 4th gear is 1:1. It is a heavy duty transmissioin built for heavy trucks (ie 250 and 350).

The transmission we are (i think) is the F150 RTS 3 speed with OD.

If the transmission is out of the car just turn it upside down and drain then flush.

Now. To answere your question. For 20 years I have been using and recommending whatever is on WalMarts shelf - 80-90 gear oil or 90 wt gear oil or up to 125 wt. Most of the brands come out of the same refinery. 90 wt is what the Ford manual recommends.

There is no drain. The ods of you wearing that gear oil out is none. That is unless your drive into the beach and get salt water in it. he-he.

[bettlesr]

In answer to John (JHN1967) from a while back, sorry for the delay, didn't see your post until today. Yes, the shift lever comes out about 2" closer to the seat. When I welded a Model A shift lever on to the stub sticking out of the transmission I tacked it on and checked the position of the shifter in all gears and then tweaked it until it felt comfortable. The the shift lever was welded solid,

[28]

Who’s good for conversion kits? I just picked up an rts 41od so we’ll see how it does with stock everything soon enough. I can fab up what I need but I’m willing to look at kits from guys that have done this regularly as they probably know what the hell they are doing. I already have an AA bell too. Will be going in a 28 fordor.

[AL in NY]

There's nobody reliable making the kits now except for Gary Bernard in Texas. His kit uses the standard Model A bell housing and requires the cross member to be badly notched and the brake cross shaft to be modified. Ken Parker used to do the kits and David Delume is not that reliable. In an earlier post I see Tim Sheridan's name in reference to a F150 kit, but don't know anything about him expect what that post said. The hardest part of the install is modifying that RTS transmission. All the mods to the Model A are pretty straight forward(this is from personel experience doing the install and mods myself).

[CarlG]

I have the kit made by Dave Delmue, as do several of the guys in our club. All pretty happy with his kit. First class machine & transmission work.

[bettlesr]

I have the kit by Tim Sheridan. It's very good and the cost was quite reasonable.

[AL in NY]

CarlG: As I remember it, you had a lot of trouble getting your kit from David Delume. A fellow in my club also had problems with him to the point he wasn't sure he would get it at all. Delume doesn't want to communicate with his customers in a timely manner. If I was going to get an F150 conversion for my Model A, Delume is the last person I would go to.........

[28]

I read the thread covering the issues with David and I gotta say CarlG you’ve got the patience and forgiveness of a saint. Sounds like a harrowing experience and I don’t know what David was going through but it must have been a lot. Can totally understand people’s reservations too.

[California Travieso]

Originally Posted by 28

I read the thread covering the issues with David and I gotta say CarlG you’ve got the patience and forgiveness of a saint. Sounds like a harrowing experience and I don’t know what David was going through but it must have been a lot. Can totally understand people’s reservations too.

I looked up David Delhome on Google sometime back when his website was down, and he has a number of other businesses going beside his Model A Only business. I imagine he doesn't much time he has to devote to his Model A business.

David Serrano

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by California Travieso

I looked up David Delhome on Google sometime back when his website was down, and he has a number of other businesses going beside his Model A Only business. I imagine he doesn't much time he has to devote to his Model A business.

David Serrano

Hey David,
Thanks for sharing your research findings.
'tooo many irons in the fire', is an old saying that makes apparent why such things occur. After reading your input, if a guy is informed and still goes on ahead with a source, well maybe patience (and faith) is required ?


I've learned this the 'hard' way, and prefer to avoid such source for my own use.

[JRN1967]

Originally Posted by bettlesr

In answer to John (JHN1967) from a while back, sorry for the delay, didn't see your post until today. Yes, the shift lever comes out about 2" closer to the seat. When I welded a Model A shift lever on to the stub sticking out of the transmission I tacked it on and checked the position of the shifter in all gears and then tweaked it until it felt comfortable. The the shift lever was welded solid,

Bettlesr, thank you for answering my question.

[JRN1967]

AL or Ken, I've read just about every post or thread on the subject of this
conversion. Including the one by manyolcars on the HAMB.
Searched SYNCHRONIZED 3 SPEED W/OVERDRIVE

One answer I can never seem to find is, how do I determine where to make the
cut for the output shaft? Based on photos from others, it looks like you have
to fabricate your tail shaft plate and bearing retainer arrangement. Then mock
it up to the rear of the transmission. Then mark it flush with the end of the
bearing retainer. Is that how you decide where to make the cut?

Or is there some predetermined amount to cut off the end of the output shaft?
After the cut is made, it seems like you could take the shaft to a shop and have
them spline it almost to where the rear sealed bearing ends.

Thoughts?

[kenparker]

OK, I will try to explain. If it does not make sense email me and I can explain further. ([email protected]).

Each vendor has a different of fabricating the Rear Backing Plate/Bearing Retainer. I have done it two ways. But First, never cut your Output Shaft until the splines are cut into the shaft. The machinist needs the centering dimple in the back end of the shaft to keep it centered while machining. The splines are made to match the Model A Ujoint. Once the splines are cut, then, cut the shaft to length.

How Long is the shaft cut to? This depends on how the Rear Backing Plate/Bearing Retainer is built. In early versions (15-18years ago) I made the Plate out of a 1 1/4" thick Aluminum Plate, Then the back half of the Model A U Joint - Clamshell - was bolted to it.

The later version and one I used up until last year is/was made from the front 1/2" of the F150 Tail Housing. Then a 1/4" thick piece of steel Flat Plate, to which the Model A Transmission Rear Bearing Retainer was bolted. Then the clamshell. I have over 35 kits built like this.

I dont remember much about the early version, other than it was 1 1/4" thisk and all one piece, that was over 15 years ago.

The late version, from back surface of transmission to back surface of the Model A Transmission Bearing Reatiner is exactly 2" thick. (not counting the clamshell). The criterior was that it fit without cutting into the Center Cross Member.

The splines are cut to make the U Joint come out center into the U Joint Cover.
Half of the Ujoint in the Bearing Reatainer and half of the Ujoint in the Clamshell.

Note: Not all machine shops can cut the type of spline that matches the Model A U joint.

I do have drawings showing how and where to cut splines and final cutoff of the shaft, but they are based on the 2" thick Rear Adaptor Plate.

This and some of the other machine work is far more complicated than lots of folks imagine. For expample My Drive Shafts adn Torque tubes are cut 2 3/16 shorter. One would think the Radias Rods would also be 2 3/16" short, but, due ato angle it does not work out that way. n the Radias Rods if you are off by .015 on the Rods the large bolt that connects the Rods to the Torque Tube wont fit.

Another thing to consider is Torque Tubes are not round - out of round by as much as 1/4 inch. Its thee center line - Drive shaft center - that is critical. When cutting Torqur Tubes KEEP THE CENTER LINE PRECISE or it WILL vibrate.

If this helps, good. If not I will try again. ken

[kenparker]

OOps left out a note. MRC makes a sealed bearing that perfectly matches the original bearings in the RTS transmissioins.

[AL in NY]

JRN1967: When I built my F150 conversion I didn't record any of the measurements that Ken spoke of. I cut the tailshaft housing off close to the bearing retainer plate and milled the inside/backside of that plate flat. It was probably close to the thickness Ken had ( 1/2"). I then made a 3/4" aluminum plate and fit behind the F150 tailshaft plate I had made previously. That aluminum plate had a recess milled in it that fit the Model A front clamshell(the one with the 4 bolts hole in it).
To determine where to cut and machine the RTS mainshaft, I remounted the Model A front clamshell on the Model A transmission and took a measurement from the clamshell to the end of the Model A transmission's mainshaft. Now, remount the clamshell on the assembled F150 transmission and transfer the first measurement to the F150 mainshaft. Now you know where the F150 mainshaft needs to be cut.
To determine the spline length on the F150, measure it on the Model A mainshaft and transfer that measurement to the RTS mainshaft.
For the measurements to shorten the torque tube, driveshaft and radius rods I assembled the engine and F150 transmission and mounted them in the car and just did measurements from the rear of the transmission to the differential. It worked out for me. I probably shorten everything about 2 1/2", but I don't know for sure.
Hope this helps...............

[old31]

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Within the last few weeks I received my fully syncro/overdrive kit from David Delhome.

Dave has been nothing but first class all the way. He promptly answered all of my stupid questions by either phone or email.

I went with Dave because he keeps the torque tube, does not make alterations to the frame or brake units, didn't have a second lever in the cab, is about $1k cheaper than Mitchell overdrive and Synch set up.

All of the guys doing the trans/OD set ups are priced about the same. All of the conversions are very good, and it becomes personal preference as to what you want or don't want.

I also like the idea of just one box to install instead of Mitchells two boxes.

I spoke with many owners of Mitchell and they love them. I spoke with Mitchell and they were great. I spoke with Volvo owners and they love them. I spoke with two of the other manufactures (I don't remember the names) but they got rid ofthe torque tube, and or made alterations to the frame and/or brakes.

I haven't started the project, but I will report my findings when it is completed.

Dave supplies the shortened t tube, shortened drive shaft, shortened rear radius arms, bell housing, throwout bearing, clutch disk, gearshift, floor template to cut out the floor/carpet and spacers to make the trans fit. The quality of his work really looks great.

Enclosed is the trans I received.

[max1932]

Gary Bernard. His kit includes shortened enclosed driveshaft.

[JRN1967]

Originally Posted by kenparker

.
But First, never cut your Output Shaft until the splines are cut into the shaft. The machinist needs the centering dimple in the back end of the shaft to keep it centered while machining. The splines are made to match the Model A Ujoint. Once the splines are cut, then, cut the shaft to length.

I'm so glad that I asked that question before I made the cut.

How Long is the shaft cut to? This depends on how the Rear Backing Plate/Bearing Retainer is built.

The later version and one I used up until last year is/was made from the front 1/2" of the F150 Tail Housing. Then a 1/4" thick piece of steel Flat Plate, to which the Model A Transmission Rear Bearing Retainer was bolted. Then the clamshell. I have over 35 kits built like this.

In the manyoldcars thread I spoke of earlier, He gives credit to you Ken for teaching him how to do this conversion. He also shows some good pics of the process. I believe his pics show the same rear backing plate/bearing retainer arrangement that you speak of. I bet this would give the same 2" thick from the back of the transmission surface to the back retainer surface?

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...uetube.728951/

The splines are cut to make the U Joint come out center into the U Joint Cover. Half of the Ujoint in the Bearing Reatainer and half of the Ujoint in the Clamshell.

Ok, this makes sense that the U-joint should be centered between the retainer and the clamshell when they are joined together.

Note: Not all machine shops can cut the type of spline that matches the Model A U joint.

Another thing to consider is Torque Tubes are not round - out of round by as much as 1/4 inch. Its thee center line - Drive shaft center - that is critical. When cutting Torqur Tubes KEEP THE CENTER LINE PRECISE or it WILL vibrate.

If this helps, good. If not I will try again. ken

I guess, I won't really understand the torque tube until I take one apart.
But I plan on doing this in three steps 1) Transmission 2) Bell housing 3) Torque tube and Radius Rods.

Ken, this is very helpful I will probably read it several times before I'm finished. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me.

John

[JRN1967]

Originally Posted by AL in NY

JRN1967: When I built my F150 conversion I didn't record any of the measurements that Ken spoke of. I cut the tailshaft housing off close to the bearing retainer plate and milled the inside/backside of that plate flat. It was probably close to the thickness Ken had ( 1/2"). I then made a 3/4" aluminum plate and fit behind the F150 tailshaft plate I had made previously. That aluminum plate had a recess milled in it that fit the Model A front clamshell(the one with the 4 bolts hole in it).

Al, It seems like yours and Ken's version of the bearing retainer and clam shell arrangement is very similar in thickness. I think I read in one of your posts that your transmission doesn't touch the frame either?

To determine where to cut and machine the RTS mainshaft, I remounted the Model A front clamshell on the Model A transmission and took a measurement from the clamshell to the end of the Model A transmission's mainshaft. Now, remount the clamshell on the assembled F150 transmission and transfer the first measurement to the F150 mainshaft. Now you know where the F150 mainshaft needs to be cut.

Makes me wish I had a second model a transmission just to take measurements, that way I could run the car until I had all the parts ready.

To determine the spline length on the F150, measure it on the Model A mainshaft and transfer that measurement to the RTS mainshaft.
For the measurements to shorten the torque tube, driveshaft and radius rods I assembled the engine and F150 transmission and mounted them in the car and just did measurements from the rear of the transmission to the differential. It worked out for me. I probably shorten everything about 2 1/2", but I don't know for sure.
Hope this helps...............

It does help, because there's more then one way to skin a cat. Knowing you did this without buying a kit helps me believe I can do it too. It's not only about saving money, It's about putting all the tools I've accumulated over the years to good use.

Thank you,
John

[Gavin]

I have an ex F150 three plus one top loader in my 28 Roadster. It has an open drive shaft with V8 rear radius arms which are heavier than the Model a ones. Its done about 5000 miles and a couple of weeks ago one of the arms broke at the end that bolts onto the backing plate. I am thinking of fitting an adjustable rod (like the Panhard Snyders have listed) from the top of the axle to a cross member we fitted. This should to prevent the axle rotating. Has anyone else with an open driveshaft had this problem?

[AL in NY]

Gavin, with an open driveshaft, you need to strengthen the radius rods so they don't bend or break from the braking/acceleration torque of the rear axle. That's what the torque tube did that you removed. If the rear axle torque is not handled correctly, the car can be dangerous to drive.

[kenparker]

Gavin, I weld up the seam that runs the length of the Radias Rod, then add some strength to the joint area at the rear end where the tube part of the RR mates to the flat bracket that bolts to the axel tube. I do above even with the shortened torque tube

On my speedster that had open drive line I added a 1" x 1 1/4" x1/8" Angle iron that ran the full length of the RR plus welded up the seam. ken

[wensum]

I have been trying to find the information on the gearbox codes for the three ratios? It was only after I installed my 4.1 box that I discovered there were three overdrive ratios and the numbers cast into the side of the box enable you to know which ratio the box is. Is someone able to let me know what these codes are?
Many thanks
Keith

[kenparker]

It is NOT a "code cast into the side of the box" It is a code on a metal tag attached to the passenger side next to the front of the box. The first three letters on the top row of the tag should be RTS the next two letters are the code for the OD ratio.
Attached is the chart. Hope it is readable. ken

[kenparker]

pix shows tag an its location. Unmolested transmission - just cleaned up.

[AL in NY]

Here's a more readable version of the chart I posted:

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by old31

Within the last few weeks I received my fully syncro/overdrive kit from David Delhome.

Dave has been nothing but first class all the way. He promptly answered all of my stupid questions by either phone or email.

I went with Dave because he keeps the torque tube, does not make alterations to the frame or brake units, didn't have a second lever in the cab, is about $1k cheaper than Mitchell overdrive and Synch set up.

All of the guys doing the trans/OD set ups are priced about the same. All of the conversions are very good, and it becomes personal preference as to what you want or don't want.

I also like the idea of just one box to install instead of Mitchells two boxes.

I spoke with many owners of Mitchell and they love them. I spoke with Mitchell and they were great. I spoke with Volvo owners and they love them. I spoke with two of the other manufactures (I don't remember the names) but they got rid ofthe torque tube, and or made alterations to the frame and/or brakes.

I haven't started the project, but I will report my findings when it is completed.

Dave supplies the shortened t tube, shortened drive shaft, shortened rear radius arms, bell housing, throwout bearing, clutch disk, gearshift, floor template to cut out the floor/carpet and spacers to make the trans fit. The quality of his work really looks great.

Enclosed is the trans I received.

Glad to see that someone besides me is speaking well of Dave Delmue's kit.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by max1932

Gary Bernard. His kit includes shortened enclosed driveshaft.

But he uses the A bellhousing and that requires modifying the rear cross member. The primary reason I did not choose Gary to supply my kit.

[john in illinois]

I'm with Carl. I just bought a f100 steering box and an adjustable drag link from Dave. He shipped it promptly and provided good instructions. The drag link is a work of art.

I have had his transmission almost 10 years.

John

[old31]

As mentioned, I would report my findings when it is completed. The Dave Delmue's kit is completed.

Carl is right on the money with this one.

All I can say is wow, wow,wow. Oh, did I say wow?

The fit of all of Dave's parts was tremendous. He thought of everything, made it easy, just the way a kit should be. The only part I had to work with to fit was the clutch adjusting arm and trunion. I had to move it over 5/16's to line up between my clutch pedal and Daves trans. Not a big deal.

The trans make it possible to keep up with any traffic because you are able to take off quick and keep moving quickly. It is great taking off from a light with cars behind you. As fast as you want to shift, you can shift. As fast as you want to downshift at any speed in any of the 4 gears, you can downshift.

I have not taken it on the highway yet and I cant wait.

When you look under the car everything looks original. You really have to go looking to see a little larger trans underneath.

Questions:
For those of you who know the transmission. How do you change the oil without a drain plug. Why in the world didn't Ford install one, I don't get it.

How often are you suppose to change the oil?

Second gear is not as smooth to get into as the others. Maybe it will break in, is there a way to make an easy adjustment?

[Corley]

Just curious here, when installing the F150 rts transmission, if one goes with an open drive shaft. 1) If using the car (A) bell housing, how much of the inverted U shaped cross member has to be chopped? 2) Likewise, if using an (AA) truck bell housing, does the inverted U cross member have to be cut at all?

Note, both questions assume a) an open driveshaft, and b) the stock f150 rts output shaft and output housing. Alternatively, how long is the rts transmission, and maybe I can just measure this for interference with the cross member.

Thanks in advance

[duke36]

Like Carl, I have Delmue's tranny approx. 20 years old. Very nice set up. Glad they are still available. The input shaft is different from a stock A (on ours) requiring a clutch disk to fit the number of splines. It's suggested not to over fill the tranny box to minimize any seepage out the rear at the clam shells. Also, make sure there is a good thin stiff rubber pad on top of the cross member at the rear support angle as the tranny weighs in approx 2x the A box.

[old31]

Daves kit includes a rubber pad for the x member.

How do you change oil in this trans, it does not have a drain plug.

[AL in NY]

old31: you'll never have to change the oil in that transmission. You should not be have shifting problems going into 2nd gear unless the transmission wasn't properly rebuilt by Dave Delmue. There is no adjustment for smoother shifting inside the transmission. Only thing it can be is a worn 1st-2nd syncro.

[CarlG]

Al,
The transmission one gets from Dave is essentially a new transmission. He uses a used RTS case, but the innards are top quality gears and new synchros. He has built over 175 of these over the years, and if any of the others are like mine, they are top notch. They all take a bit of running to get everything to settle in, but that should be all smooth sailing from then on.

[old31]

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Carl I am sure you are correct.

I only have 50 miles of driving so far.

First, third and 4th are real slick to get in and out of, second is just a tiny bit notchy or sticky to get in to.

[AL in NY]

Carl: unless Dave Delume manufactures the gears himself, the "innards" are not new. You can buy the new seals, bearings and synchros. I know from experience that the cluster gears are not available and only a couple of the other gears can be found new. A USED cluster gear will cost you $200-$300 alone. If he could find new gears, he couldn't afford to put them in the transmissions he includes in his kits and sell it for $2500-$3000.

[old31]

Follow up:

I have about 800 miles with the new trans and I could not be any happier with Dave Delmues stuff. The second gear notchy feel seams to be getting a little smoother.

Today I went on a 140 mile highway trip between 55-60 mph all the way and no issues.

[duke36]

Question on F150 tranny fluid change for Delmue conversion: we recently used 80-90w non synthetic gear lube after using a suction gun with flexible clear plastic hose at the fill hole . The old fluid removed was not ATF.

[kenparker]

The original Ford manual for the F150 RTS and its predessor the RUG recommends 80-90 wt Gear oil. I have one of the ,manuals.

[old31]

I asked Dave about changing the oil because the trans does not have a drain plug.

His answer was you do not change the oil.

That sure sounds odd to me.

What are you guys doing about f150 oil changes, if you do.

[harryc]

Try --Valley Machine Shop---Bakersfield. Their website shows what they offer

[rotorwrench]

The design forces the lube to be drawn out with a suction gun or some other form of pump. There is no such thing as a transmission that needs no regular lubrication service. Lubricant breaks down over time. Ford recommended standard transmission lubricant (SAE 80W) D8DZ-19C547-A (ESP-M2C83-C) in their manual. It's capacity is 3.5 pints or 1.7 liters.

[CarlG]

Dave never said "don't change the oil". What he did say is that Ford did not install a drain plug, and to drain it, you must suck it out the drain plug. He also recommended a full synthetic oil, Redline (or equivalent) 75-85, 85-90. Nothing heavier than 90.

Redline is not readily available where I live, so I have Lucas Synthetic 75W-90 in my transmission. I do check it at least once every season (about 3,000 miles) and have never had to add any, and it is still in good shape.

Someone above mentioned ATF. That is Automatic Transmission Fluid, and should NOT be used in this "manual" transmission.

[rotorwrench]

Some manual transmissions use ATF but the one in question doesn't. I was referring more to post #84 on the regular service. These old TODs aren't bad units but no one makes the gears or other hard parts. The folks that offer conversion transmissions have to hoard parts. At some point, it will get harder to find parts unless some manufacturer steps up. The Tremec plant in Mexico hasn't produced parts for them since the contract for them ended which was likely back in the 90s. Early 1987 was the last production year for Ford pickups that used them. I look for overdrive gears and clusters but they don't show up at all. Transmissions are still out there but a person has to scour the salvage yards to find them.

[AL in NY]

rotorwrench: there is an online used parts search the works very well for me. It's "car-parts.com", a real time saver.

[duke36]

Originally Posted by old31

Within the last few weeks I received my fully syncro/overdrive kit from David Delhome.

Dave has been nothing but first class all the way. He promptly answered all of my stupid questions by either phone or email.

I went with Dave because he keeps the torque tube, does not make alterations to the frame or brake units, didn't have a second lever in the cab, is about $1k cheaper than Mitchell overdrive and Synch set up.

All of the guys doing the trans/OD set ups are priced about the same. All of the conversions are very good, and it becomes personal preference as to what you want or don't want.

I also like the idea of just one box to install instead of Mitchells two boxes.

I spoke with many owners of Mitchell and they love them. I spoke with Mitchell and they were great. I spoke with Volvo owners and they love them. I spoke with two of the other manufactures (I don't remember the names) but they got rid ofthe torque tube, and or made alterations to the frame and/or brakes.

I haven't started the project, but I will report my findings when it is completed.

Dave supplies the shortened t tube, shortened drive shaft, shortened rear radius arms, bell housing, throwout bearing, clutch disk, gearshift, floor template to cut out the floor/carpet and spacers to make the trans fit. The quality of his work really looks great.

Enclosed is the trans I received.

Interesting the nylock or airplane nuts holding the housing. Thanks for the photos. Also, you may need a non-stock alignment tool for the clutch/ pressure plate upon assembly.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by duke36

... Also, you may need a non-stock alignment tool for the clutch/ pressure plate upon assembly.

That tool is readily available at your local auto supply store. As I remember, that was included in the kit I received from Dave.

[duke36]

Originally Posted by old31

I am looking to install Ford RTS 150 4 speed trans with a 41% OD.

Car is a 31 Deluxe Roadster with Snyder 5.5 head, enlarged intakes, new motor, B grind cam, FSI Zipper distributor and 4:11 rear end.

I would appreciate it if the people that make the complete 150 kits PM me with your kit info, or reply to this post so others could have the same information.

I have read everything I can from the Barn, Hamb, Mitchell, Volvo, etc.

Be advised that the FS zipper may be a bearing knock issue due to advanced timing with the higher compression head on hills. Search the threads for a discussion about this.

[old31]

What do you think of installing a drain plug on the bottom of the F150? Has anyone done it?

It would beat sucking it out and it would drain 100% of the oil.

[kenparker]

Old31. When I was building kits I considered installing a bottom drain plug a time or two. Electd not to due to the thickness of the casting on the bottom and the posssibility of not enough thickness for sufficient threads to stop any chance of leaking. Also, if the original design, with no drain plug, was good enough for a 1980's truck and the abuse (speed, towing, miles) they were put thru n the 80's and 90's - I took one out of a truck at a wrecking yard that had over 200,000 miles - a drain plug was not needed for a Model A and the relative easy way we drive them today.

[rotorwrench]

A person would have to TIG weld a bung on the bottom to get a plug in there. It's pretty thin. Using a suction gun will work just fine as long as you run the vehicle a while to stir the particulate that might be in the bottom up enough to hold it in suspension. You can draw out a lot and maybe as much as would go out through a drain plug. There is no guarantee that particulate will not catch on the castings or gears before going out a drain plug.

[JRN1967]

There's a place at the bottom where's it pretty thick, not at the lowest point though. I wanted the option to drain the oil in the future, so I used a 1/4-18 NPTF tap. Not sure if you can see in this picture or not?

[Ron W]

When I did mine, I removed the magnets and welded a bung on the bottom and used a plug with a magnet. Ron W

[CarlG]

When I installed my transmission, I bought only enough oil to fill it and have a spare quart to add if needed. So far I haven't needed that as it is still full, hasn't leaked any, and from what I can see, it's still clear as the day I installed it. Don't see the need myself. It's not like I am putting 100,000 miles a year on the thing!

[JRN1967]

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The length of my OD Transmission with the AA bell housing to the retainer is 18.3125". Does anyone know the length of a 1930 A stock bell housing, transmission to the retainer?

I think I can use these two measurements to determine how much needs to be cut off my driveshaft.

Thoughts?

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by JRN1967

I picked up a 32 BB bell housing cheap. I think its the same size as a AA?

'32 bell housing isn't set up for Model A pedals or wishbone.

[CarlG]

The AA bell housing has provisions for the wishbone but not the pedals.

[JRN1967]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

'32 bell housing isn't set up for Model A pedals or wishbone.

Thank you Chris for the heads up, but that's not a 32 bell housing, see the picture above.
I traded the BB for the one pictured.

John

[JRN1967]

I have a question for Al or Ken.

I finished assembling the transmission and changed it from a 37% to a 26% in the process. Afterwards I noticed the input shaft in old31's post #66 has about a 1/4" of the splines turned back. On mine I only cut 5/8" off the tip of the input shaft.

Will I have to remove the input shaft and turn this back like in post #66? See pics below.

Thanks, John

[kenparker]

JRn, yes you have to remove the 1/4 to 5/16" or the splines from the front of the input shaft. It can be done without removing the input shaft from the case. I have done it. email me and i will walk you thru it. [email protected].

[JRN1967]

Just wanted to post this bolt pattern pdf that I found here in another thread. Eastwood Machine in Somers CT machined the flywheel for the T-Bird diaphragm pressure plate. 47 lbs and balanced to 1.7 grams.